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  1. #51

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    This is about right
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  2. #52
    Chapecó, que tristeza theDurk's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    I'm a little dubious as to the instructive value of the Australian example. First, it's an island, and a relatively prosperous one in a remote corner of the globe with a population equivalent to the NYC SMSA.. I'm sure its gun violence rates were lower than ours before gun controls were tightened.

    How about Brazil? Brazil has far stronger controls on legal guns than the US does, and its density of guns is only half that of Australia's, yet its death rate from gun violence is the highest in the world, about four times that of the US. Of course, it's not an island, it has land borders with a dozen chickensh!t countries, a population equal to two-thirds of the US and is located in the same hemisphere. It's the classic case of a land where only the criminals have guns.

    As to the US, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think that the price levels aspired to by gun-control hawks will quickly inspire diversification by the highly efficient importers of illegal drugs that currently operate here. In fact, Brazil will almost certainly be a major supplier, exporting its substantial domestic gun production to all the drug producing countries that currently sell to the US. It already makes many of the illegal guns in the US.


    Honestly, the hopes for the effectiveness of these desired controls are really overblown.

    For the record, I am not against gun control reform, up to a point. My own state, New Jersey, has relatively strict controls, stricter than CT, for example, but short of the extreme laws in New York. I would support extension of NJ level controls to the whole US, but not NY-level (which are about the same as Brazil's).

    EDIT: I got my numbers here:http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...hip-world-list
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  3. #53

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    In all those countries that banned guns, was there a change in the murder rate following the ban?
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  4. #54
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    That's why it's in the constitution
    That's something that's said often and easily, but I seriously question the extent to which it's true.

    First off, I'll acknowledge that I'm not an expert in the legislative history of the Second Amendment. I'll also acknowledge that at least some people at the time - particularly the more rabid anti-Federalists, Patrick Henry and the like - advocated gun ownership as a defense against tyranny. But the Second Amendment had to be approved by both houses of Congress and 11 state legislatures, so a lot of different people may have had a lot of different reasons for supporting it.

    I have trouble believing that the main reason it was written and ratified was to codify a right to armed insurrection against the U.S. government. That had already been specifically defined as treason in Article III of the Constitution; why would they then endorse an unalienable right to commit that same crime? Also, when people did use their guns against what they saw as government tyranny - Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion - they weren't exactly hailed as patriots exercising their natural rights.

    Yes, there's the example of the American Revolution. But a lot had changed since then, including the institution of other safeguards against tyranny that were less cataclysmic and more effective: representative government and frequent elections.

    More important, I think, was the widespread American antipathy towards a standing army. Defense (at least on land) depended on the ability to raise state militias, which in turn required a large number of men with guns. I'm not saying that the right to own and bear arms exists solely in the context of a militia, that it's entirely a collective rather than an individual right. I think the mangled construction and syntax of the Second Amendment can be interpreted that way, and I think that in today's world it should be as well. Unfortunately, I also reluctantly agree that the framers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights probably saw individual gun ownership for self-defense as a natural right. In any case, Heller and McDonald ended that particular argument for the foreseeable future.

    But I don't believe that the people who wrote and ratified the Second Amendment, taken as a group, primarily intended it to establish a right to treasonous armed insurrection. That just doesn't make sense.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  5. #55

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    What I am going to say is going to sound snarky, but I'm not trying to be. This is a legitimate question of mine, and i don't know the answer.

    Can I personally own a cannon? Or land mines? Or a bomb? Aren't those considered "arms?" Shouldn't they fall under the "right to bear and keep arms?" And if we can't own those, isn't that just a form of "arms" control?
    I think it's an interesting question because it puts some things in perspective. Your question has been discussed in depth on my local conservative talk radio shows, and I live in gun country. As per the people calling in (many of whom are NRA members), it seems that most people are in favor of some sort of control, but people have different ideas on where the lines should be drawn.

    For argument's sake, the hosts would paint a hypothetical scenario of living next door to foreign born religious extremists. They are in the country legally, but are currently under surveillance by the FBI. And in their house, they have a nice stockpile of sophisticated weapons- bazookas, grenade rocket launchers, assault weapons, etc....

    Then they discuss the 2nd amendment under those premises, which makes for good radio, imo.
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  6. #56

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post

    What? The good guy with a gun thing is about how most of the bad guys who are shooting stop once a 'good guy' with a gun shows up. Either by suicide or in a shoot-out. That's not a myth. I think they are aware at that point who the bad guy is.
    And beforehand. And it's a total myth. It's laughable to think that the shooter suddenly realizes he's caught and, just that moment, decides to kill himself. The manifestos written and videos recorded beforehand show every intention of going down in a blaze, preferably by his own hand.
    But the "good guy with a gun" you are referring to above is the police, not Johnny Civilian. But, in those cases, sometimes the self-appointed hero becomes the next victim.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/09...-supremacists/
    Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers- George Carlin

  7. #57
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    I think it's an interesting question because it puts some things in perspective. Your question has been discussed in depth on my local conservative talk radio shows, and I live in gun country. As per the people calling in (many of whom are NRA members), it seems that most people are in favor of some sort of control, but people have different ideas on where the lines should be drawn.

    For argument's sake, the hosts would paint a hypothetical scenario of living next door to foreign born religious extremists. They are in the country legally, but are currently under surveillance by the FBI. And in their house, they have a nice stockpile of sophisticated weapons- bazookas, grenade rocket launchers, assault weapons, etc....

    Then they discuss the 2nd amendment under those premises, which makes for good radio, imo.
    This was addressed in US v. Miller (1939) and reaffirmed by Scalia in Heller v. DC:

    We therefore read Miller to say only that the Second Amendment does not protect those weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes
    Stevens disagreed with Scalia over that word "only," but everyone agrees on the legality of limiting the types of weapons one can possess.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  8. #58

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    And beforehand. And it's a total myth. It's laughable to think that the shooter suddenly realizes he's caught and, just that moment, decides to kill himself. The manifestos written and videos recorded beforehand show every intention of going down in a blaze, preferably by his own hand.
    But the "good guy with a gun" you are referring to above is the police, not Johnny Civilian. But, in those cases, sometimes the self-appointed hero becomes the next victim.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/09...-supremacists/
    Two seconds on google. There are plenty more.

    http://www.kgw.com/story/news/2014/07/24/12405148/

    http://archive.azcentral.com/communi...nclick_check=1

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/m...-be#.vwQvWBglO

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/tex...h-a-long-shot/

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...419-story.html
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  9. #59

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    That's why it's in the constitution-- not why the vast majority of gun owners have them.



    What? The good guy with a gun thing is about how most of the bad guys who are shooting stop once a 'good guy' with a gun shows up. Either by suicide or in a shoot-out. That's not a myth. I think they are aware at that point who the bad guy is.



    They initiated a mandatory buy-back program, which is confiscation. I don't think that would fly here.



    It's illegal to buy, sell, make, possess a whole bunch of drugs, but they're still around. What makes you think guns are going to magically disappear if they are suddenly illegal?
    Why do you think the mandatory buy-back program worked there, but wouldn't work here? I don't know many Australians, but they seem to be the "freedom loving" sort, too.

  10. #60
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  11. #61

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    There were "good guys with guns" at UCC.

    I didn't watch the video, but yes.

    The hero who took seven bullets was armed and he chose not to shoot, so as not to be mistaken for the bad guy when SWAT arrived.

  12. #62

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Why do you think the mandatory buy-back program worked there, but wouldn't work here? I don't know many Australians, but they seem to be the "freedom loving" sort, too.
    a) I'm not convinced it worked. From what I can see the homicide rate hasn't changed.

    b) We have way more guns, and I don't think people would give them up as easily.

    c) Estimates say the number of guns was reduced 20% through the buy-back program. That would hardly make a dent here.

    d) You can apparently still get guns there, so I admittedly don't know exactly how the whole thing works.

    e) Most gun violence here if of the 'inner-city gang members with illegal weapons to begin with' type. I don't think they had that issue. Even so, I don't think that demographic would change if guns were illegal here, since they don't have them legally to begin with. And they certainly wouldn't line up to hand them in.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  13. #63

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    The hero who took seven bullets was armed and he chose not to shoot, so as not to be mistaken for the bad guy when SWAT arrived.
    I haven't read that anywhere, and it makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  14. #64

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    There were "good guys with guns" at UCC.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  15. #65

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers- George Carlin

  16. #66

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    Did you even read these? The armed civilian in the first one had no effect on the outcome.
    I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself.
    But disregard that one if you want. The point is, it's not a myth.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  17. #67
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    I didn't watch the video, but yes.

    The hero who took seven bullets was armed and he chose not to shoot, so as not to be mistaken for the bad guy when SWAT arrived.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I haven't read that anywhere, and it makes no sense.
    No, it wasn't the same guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
    That more armed people isn't really a solution. And that good guys with guns and common sense keep out of it.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  18. #68

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    That more armed people isn't really a solution. And that good guys with guns and common sense keep out of it.
    It would have mattered had the gunman wandered into that guy's classroom instead.

    He did the right thing by not running out there. I'm not sure why this is an argument against having a gun.

    I bet the guy who charged the gunman wishes he was armed.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  19. #69
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    It would have mattered had the gunman wandered into that guy's classroom instead.

    He did the right thing by not running out there. I'm not sure why this is an argument against having a gun.

    I bet the guy who charged the gunman wishes he was armed.
    In general, I think it's better to have more restrictions on carry permits rather than fewer. Carry permits aren't established as a Second Amendment right, since Heller addressed the right to have a gun in the home, and left considerable room for restrictions beyond the specifics of the decision. I think having more concealed guns out in public increases the probability of bad shootings more than good ones.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  20. #70

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    In general, I think it's better to have more restrictions on carry permits rather than fewer. Carry permits aren't established as a Second Amendment right, since Heller addressed the right to have a gun in the home, and left considerable room for restrictions beyond the specifics of the decision. I think having more concealed guns out in public increases the probability of bad shootings more than good ones.
    I disagree. I think it would be all over the news if CC holders were shooting innocent bystanders. I don't know if the stats are available anywhere, but I would guess CC holders have saved many times more lives than they've taken.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Political correctness is fascism pretending to be manners.

  21. #71
    Pinpoint False1's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post
    In response to False1 who asked Big E about what he meant by "a good guy with a gun". Frankly IMHO if we had strong constructive gun laws that reliably prevented guns from getting in the hands of "bad guys" the good guys wouldn't need guns to protect themselves. But of course the gun industry and NRA don't want this and neither does congress, because they would lose a large part of their income.


    Unrestricted gun possession simply doesn't make sense to me


    Andy
    I'm all for the bolded. I guess the path to that is where I'm still confused. I don't get the uproar over background checks and other common sense measures that could be implemented while still allowing ownership. However, I'm not sure that solves this problem of mass shootings frankly. And I don't think what you're saying here is what he meant though.

  22. #72
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    This is about right
    How is this about right? Not an attack on you, but this is exactly what I think is wrong. The issue being discussed is curbing gun violence, and conflating that debate with this one does absolutely nothing but distract and inhibit healthy and potentially productive discussion that might actually drive some change.

    Besides, can only men acquire and use guns? Kind of ironically sexist post there.

  23. #73

  24. #74

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    No, it wasn't the same guy.



    That more armed people isn't really a solution. And that good guys with guns and common sense keep out of it.
    My mistake. Still, the guy with the gun chose not to use it.

  25. #75
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    I'm a little dubious as to the instructive value of the Australian example. First, it's an island, and a relatively prosperous one in a remote corner of the globe with a population equivalent to the NYC SMSA.. I'm sure its gun violence rates were lower than ours before gun controls were tightened.

    How about Brazil? Brazil has far stronger controls on legal guns than the US does, and its density of guns is only half that of Australia's, yet its death rate from gun violence is the highest in the world, about four times that of the US. Of course, it's not an island, it has land borders with a dozen chickensh!t countries, a population equal to two-thirds of the US and is located in the same hemisphere. It's the classic case of a land where only the criminals have guns.

    As to the US, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think that the price levels aspired to by gun-control hawks will quickly inspire diversification by the highly efficient importers of illegal drugs that currently operate here. In fact, Brazil will almost certainly be a major supplier, exporting its substantial domestic gun production to all the drug producing countries that currently sell to the US. It already makes many of the illegal guns in the US.


    Honestly, the hopes for the effectiveness of these desired controls are really overblown.

    For the record, I am not against gun control reform, up to a point. My own state, New Jersey, has relatively strict controls, stricter than CT, for example, but short of the extreme laws in New York. I would support extension of NJ level controls to the whole US, but not NY-level (which are about the same as Brazil's).

    EDIT: I got my numbers here:http://www.theguardian.com/news/data...hip-world-list
    Durk - thanks for posting this. This is the type of information I was curious about when I originally asked if America =/= Australia and if something that presumably works there would have a high likelihood of working here. I tend to agree with this perspective. That's not to say some measures shouldn't be taken anyway, but...

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