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  1. #26
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    You had one job, Hoodoo. FAIL.
    I don't think so. You've got people here ranting about politicians, you got people here blaming the NRA & you got people here who are ashamed to be an American. Any thoughts about the shooter and what blame, if any?

  2. #27

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    It's to the point where we need 'Dad' to come in and fix this. The debate is drawn along the lines of the 2nd amendment. And the stoolies at the NRA do the gun manufacturers' bidding by shilling the rhetoric. LaPierre is a loon. But then, so are leftwing extremists who want to repeal the 2nd amendment.

    You've got to hit the gun manufacturer where it hurts. Its wallet for every gun-related murder moving forward. Every gun ever made - if it was made by Smith & Wesson, and it's proven in a court of law that was the gun that fired the bullet that killed the man, then S&W gets a substantial fine.

    What isn't 'opinion' is that it costs taxpayers over $100b (BILLION) a year due to the effects of gun violence. Those are the externalities. The gunshot victims and deceased. The cost and effects of the violence. Yet the manufacturer profits from it all.

    Fix that. Compel them to the table.

    As it stands there are simply too many guns sold. Fix the price points by fining the manufacturer for each murder. It'd help rectify the situation immensely.
    You made the same argument in the last thread.

    I'll ask you again, since you didn't answer last time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    It's illegal ( in most cases ) to shoot someone. I'm no lawyer, but if you are using a product in a way that is against the law, how can you hold the manufacturer or retailer responsible? If I bludgeon you with a hammer, would Home Depot or Stanley tools be liable?
    Same goes for driving recklessly or drunk. Should the victim be able to sue Ford?

  3. #28

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    False1, empty your inbox.

  4. #29
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoodoo View Post
    You've come to the wrong site if you want a sane discussion about guns.
    So where is the sane discussion on the matter? I honestly feel like one of our bigger challenges as a people is that too many form opinions - sometimes with an incomplete perspective on an issue - and refuse to continue to expand their POV through respectful dialogue. Instead of seeking out people with different opinions to continue to learn, or even to strengthen their existing opinion, they simply shout down anyone else who has the audacity to be on the other side of a debatable issue and look for like-minded people to give them digital head pats for being on their side of an issue.

    The whole reason I made that post is because one thing I am passionate about is hearing opposing points of view. Seems like most that have posted here are understandably frustrated and want something to be done, but I'm not clear on how the something that is described will solve the problem at hand. But I'm open to admitting I don't know the answer.

    How else do you solve a problem without productive debate? Has it become natural for us to assume, insinuate or flat out proclaim that anyone with a different perspective on an important topic is lesser minded? What a shame. We talk about diversity a lot in this nation, and much progress has been made on that front. Where we seem to really be going backwards though is diversity of thought, and the willingness to actually admit to ourselves that my POV may be imperfect, and perhaps there is some middle ground to be achieved.

    Went off topic there a bit... but honestly would like some productive responses to my questions if anyone is willing to share them without offending others.

  5. #30
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    False1, empty your inbox.
    Done. Thanks.

  6. #31
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Went off topic there a bit... but honestly would like some productive responses to my questions if anyone is willing to share them without offending others.
    Here are my own opinions on the matter:

    1. Background checks should be strengthened and tightened up. That will help, but it won't put much of a dent in the problem.
    2. Mental health is an obvious concern, but no matter what they do to keep the mentally ill away from guns it has a big drawback: Most folks are, at one time, rational and sane. They buy guns, and 1 in 10,000 become mentally disturbed afterwards, leaving plenty of mentally unstable folks out there with guns. Getting guns away from them after the fact may be close to impossible because many aren't deemed mental unstable until after the shooting.
    3. I think the obvious cause and effect is more guns = more murders, less guns = less murders, not to mention less guns = less suicides and less accidental shootings. I suspect that most everybody involved in trying to find a solution knows this, but very few will try to persuade any measure that would drastically reduce the number of guns in circulation.

    So, the only true solution is to remove the large majority of handguns out of circulation, but that will never happen, or won't happen anytime soon. I find it very disturbing that over 10,000 of our citizens are murdered each year by guns and we look at it like it's a unfortunate cost of our inherit freedom in this country. If foreign religious jihadists killed 10,000 of our citizens every year there would be hundreds of thousands protesting and marching in every corner of the country. Is there really a difference?
    Let the kids play.

  7. #32
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    In 2005 the ban on assault weapons expired. Half of our mass shootings happened since then. Highly doubt that is a coincidence. The NRA complains about Obama politicizing guns by politicizing guns. And they own Congress so you know nothing gets done. And to the person calling people Unamerican for wanting to stop these shootings I find that despicable. People (who turned out to be 100% right) questioning the Iraq war were called unamerican. The NRA won't even allow stronger background checks to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people or criminals.
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  8. #33
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    In response to your comments, False1, I tend to think that things like stricter background checks and other discussed measures obviously wouldn't make the issue disappear, but would probably diminish it to some extent. Even if it cut back on these incidents 5% (or 1%), I would think that would be worth it.

    I agree with your point that the root causes are critical to the discussion, though I feel woefully underqualified to speak to that issue or how much blame to assign to each root cause. I think guns get talked about a lot largely for this reason. It's very, very difficult to figure out exactly what we as a society are doing wrong in what areas and to what extent sociological issues impact the fact that this happens here far more often than other first world countries.

    It's pretty easy, however, to figure out that the ease with which one can legally purchase a gun in this country is a factor, and to see it as a good starting point, and I think it is. I think it makes sense to address the factors that are easy to identify and should be easier to address before you try to solve issues that are difficult even to identify. If you need to cover 100 yards, taking a baby step or two to start makes more sense than metaphorically paralyzing yourself for years trying to figure out how to build a racecar.

    I think that's one of the more powerful tools of the NRA and the gun lobby, arguing essentially that these things are never going to go away and that we need to figure out what the root causes are and address those rather than worrying about the tools these people are using to accomplish their goals.

    I think it's effective because there's a lot of truth to it. No matter how strict gun laws are, crazy people are going to get guns and they're going to do crazy things with them. This will happen even if greater societal issues are sufficiently addressed, because there are always going to be people who are off, no matter how close to Utopian a society might be.

    Further, those issues are extremely important, so there's a lot of sense to saying "we need to address those!" That being said, though, I think it's a strawman argument, as there's no reason we can't attempt to identify and address those things at the same time we make some common sense changes to gun laws which might help things, even if it's marginally.
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  9. #34
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    You made the same argument in the last thread.

    I'll ask you again, since you didn't answer last time:



    Same goes for driving recklessly or drunk. Should the victim be able to sue Ford?

    Sorry. I didn't see it.

    A car is meant to be driven. A gun is meant to be fired. A car can be used as a decoration, not unlike a gun, but the intent of the automobile is for it to be driven.

    You have to be able to separate the two.

    If it ever got to the point where hammers were far and away the tool used in homicides, then we'll visit the hammer manufacturers at that point.

    The single biggest point that's not being addressed in gun violence is the externality issue.

    I don't care how they're fined. Hell, just threaten them to the table. Maybe a $1000 contribution for every licensed firearm goes to the 'gun violence' tax. It's been on the US taxpayer for far too long. If there are laws in place that prevent fines or fees to be associated, then change the freakin laws already. Shiite's gone on long enough.

  10. #35
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoodoo View Post
    I don't think so. You've got people here ranting about politicians, you got people here blaming the NRA & you got people here who are ashamed to be an American. Any thoughts about the shooter and what blame, if any?
    He asked that there not be any one liner snarky comments, was my point.

  11. #36

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Sorry. I didn't see it.

    A car is meant to be driven. A gun is meant to be fired. A car can be used as a decoration, not unlike a gun, but the intent of the automobile is for it to be driven.

    You have to be able to separate the two.

    If it ever got to the point where hammers were far and away the tool used in homicides, then we'll visit the hammer manufacturers at that point.

    The single biggest point that's not being addressed in gun violence is the externality issue.

    I don't care how they're fined. Hell, just threaten them to the table. Maybe a $1000 contribution for every licensed firearm goes to the 'gun violence' tax. It's been on the US taxpayer for far too long. If there are laws in place that prevent fines or fees to be associated, then change the freakin laws already. Shiite's gone on long enough.
    A gun is not meant to be fired at a person. In fact, there are laws against it.

    And licensed guns are not the problem, either.

    Fining gun manufacturers won't solve anything.

  12. #37

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    All of you posters are missing the obvious solution. Anybody who wants a firearm or firearms can acquire them. No background checks. Reach the age of 18 you're good to go. PFA's, mental illnesses, prior felonies? No problem. Lock em and load. It'll run it's course and things will settle down. Kids in college, courthouse workers, politicians, contractors, doctors, nurses, teachers, tire guy, landscaper, mason, waitress, bartender, sanitation workers, vets, entertainers, athletes, cafeteria workers, veterans, pet groomers, dentists, 711 clerks, arborists, civil engineers, kids at Dairy Queen, car sales people, mechanics, welders, fabricators, mail carriers, UPS drivers, street and parks people, librarians, journalists, authors, editors, coaches, tutors, carpenters, the homeless, the crack house residents, meth heads, Mountain Dew heads, farmers, firemen, Amtrak conductors, pilots, flight attendants, actors, musicians, et al. They all need protection so let em pack heat. It's necessary for solidifying the 2nd Amendment. Our founding fathers had the foresight to realize that the muzzleloaders needed protected rights.
    They did the right thing. They had the foresight to protect the muzzleloader and it's inherent rights.
    Live Free or Die, kids.

  13. #38

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    A gun is not meant to be fired at a person.
    Then why do so many of the targets look like a human torso?
    Leotardo. That's my f***in' legacy... No more, Butchie. No more of this.

  14. #39
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    All these arguments that cars, hammers, screwdrivers, glass shards, knives all misstate the facts. Guns are made for the sole purpose to kill living things. Yes, they are useful in hunting, in protecting yourself from a corrupt government. That's why the second amendment stresses the fact that "a well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of a people to keep and bear arms shall not be regulated".
    But, no one today buys guns to shoot at a shooting range, unless he wants to improve his accuracy and proficiency. There is no reason for the existence of guns except to kill or maim a living thing. That said, it is incumbent on todays society to totally insure that possession of firearms be limited to people of sound minds and intentions.


    The Constitution was written just after the revolutionary war and in that context wanted to protect the rights of society to rebel against a despotic government. It did not recognize the problems that would crop up in a society 3 centuries later.
    For that matter, the founders of our country could not have had the forsight to envision what society would be in the future.


    I FIRMMLY believe that we need to form a think tank to carefully review our Constitution and amendments and develop and propose a new framework to our citizenry that is more in keeping with modern times.


    Andy
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  15. #40

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    Then why do so many of the targets look like a human torso?
    Good point. The reason is self-defense.

    I was referring to shooting someone in an illegal capacity.

  16. #41
    Waiting for 2018 Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    In just the last 10 years, over 300,000 people have been killed in the USA by guns. Zero have been used to overthrow a tyrannical government.

    The "good guy with a gun" is a myth. If everyone starts shooting, how do you know who are the good guys, who are the bad guys?

    Australia had the largest massacre in the world in 1996 -- Port Arthur. They enacted tough gun control and have had zero in the nearly 20 years since then.

    If we ban guns and the ammo, they will be gone. If you ban the manufacture of the guns, Ruger, Smith and Wesson, etc, will not be allowed to make them. If you ban the ammo, it will become unavailable. It worked in other countries it can work in the NRA, I mean the USA.
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  17. #42
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    What I am going to say is going to sound snarky, but I'm not trying to be. This is a legitimate question of mine, and i don't know the answer.

    Can I personally own a cannon? Or land mines? Or a bomb? Aren't those considered "arms?" Shouldn't they fall under the "right to bear and keep arms?" And if we can't own those, isn't that just a form of "arms" control?

  18. #43
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    In just the last 10 years, over 300,000 people have been killed in the USA by guns. Zero have been used to overthrow a tyrannical government.

    The "good guy with a gun" is a myth. If everyone starts shooting, how do you know who are the good guys, who are the bad guys?

    Australia had the largest massacre in the world in 1996 -- Port Arthur. They enacted tough gun control and have had zero in the nearly 20 years since then.

    If we ban guns and the ammo, they will be gone. If you ban the manufacture of the guns, Ruger, Smith and Wesson, etc, will not be allowed to make them. If you ban the ammo, it will become unavailable. It worked in other countries it can work in the NRA, I mean the USA.
    Thank you everyone who has responded in a constructive way, including you Big E.

    That said, can you clarify on the bolded? Is the implication that good guys with guns never protect their lives and/or property successfully due to gun ownership? Is the fact that gun ownership is somewhat prevalent completely ineffective as a deterrent to some who might otherwise commit violent crimes in a society where the odds of having a gun drawn on you were lessened?

    Is the Australia example you provided a true overlay of what would happen here with the same gun control laws? How many guns were in circulation in Australia at the time? Did other types of non-lethal crimes go up? Rape? Battery? Larceny?

    I'm not trying to invalidate your perspective, but these would be the questions I'd have about your solution.

    I'm not a gun owner, but I am a parent. I've thought about it, and for me the risk/reward when it came to safety didn't make sense at the time. But I think it's safe to say that there are countless firearms in the hands of people that intend to use them against innocents, and my initial concern would be that by tipping the scales and making it tougher for law abiding citizens to protect themselves we actually might see more violent and non-violent crimes initially, and I'm not as certain that ultimately it would go away as you portray in the Australia example. Also, I'm not convinced that what works for Australia automatically works for America.

  19. #44
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    What I am going to say is going to sound snarky, but I'm not trying to be. This is a legitimate question of mine, and i don't know the answer.

    Can I personally own a cannon? Or land mines? Or a bomb? Aren't those considered "arms?" Shouldn't they fall under the "right to bear and keep arms?" And if we can't own those, isn't that just a form of "arms" control?
    I've seen this come up before... hey, can't I own a tank to protect myself from a tyrannical government? Given your preface, I don't think it's your intent but I've seen this used as a strawman argument many times on this topic.

    Unless you personally feel that not being able to own other types of weapons is an affront to your liberties, this is really just a distraction whether intentional or not.

  20. #45

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    In just the last 10 years, over 300,000 people have been killed in the USA by guns. Zero have been used to overthrow a tyrannical government.
    That's why it's in the constitution-- not why the vast majority of gun owners have them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    The "good guy with a gun" is a myth. If everyone starts shooting, how do you know who are the good guys, who are the bad guys?
    What? The good guy with a gun thing is about how most of the bad guys who are shooting stop once a 'good guy' with a gun shows up. Either by suicide or in a shoot-out. That's not a myth. I think they are aware at that point who the bad guy is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    Australia had the largest massacre in the world in 1996 -- Port Arthur. They enacted tough gun control and have had zero in the nearly 20 years since then.
    They initiated a mandatory buy-back program, which is confiscation. I don't think that would fly here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    If we ban guns and the ammo, they will be gone. If you ban the manufacture of the guns, Ruger, Smith and Wesson, etc, will not be allowed to make them. If you ban the ammo, it will become unavailable. It worked in other countries it can work in the NRA, I mean the USA.
    It's illegal to buy, sell, make, possess a whole bunch of drugs, but they're still around. What makes you think guns are going to magically disappear if they are suddenly illegal?

  21. #46
    Todd Frazier in 2018 ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Ban guns, make them illegal and civility will return to the streets of Chicago in no time. Watch how quickly the homicide rate drops as it's common knowledge that all thugs and psychotic killers are law-abiding citizens.



  22. #47
    Waiting for 2018 Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    It's illegal to buy, sell, make, possess a whole bunch of drugs, but they're still around. What makes you think guns are going to magically disappear if they are suddenly illegal?
    Cost.

    The gun used in Sandy Hook costs $1000 in the US.

    On the black market in Australia it costs over $30,000.

    Look what has happened to marijuana costs in states where it's become legal. Plummeting prices.

    It's called supply and demand.

    Now imagine gun costs where a legal weapon is now against the law. How would you get a new assault rifle, if the company is not allowed to manufacture them in America, or import them from overseas?
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  23. #48
    Waiting for 2018 Big_E's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Ban guns, make them illegal and civility will return to the streets of Chicago in no time. Watch how quickly the homicide rate drops as it's common knowledge that all thugs and psychotic killers are law-abiding citizens.
    It is a fact that most guns used in places with strict gun control are imported from other areas. SO yes, nation-wide gun control will bring a drop in gun crime in Chicago. But we've already seen that as gun murder in Chicago is down significantly over the last 10 years. Same with NYC.
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  24. #49
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    In response to False1 who asked Big E about what he meant by "a good guy with a gun". Frankly IMHO if we had strong constructive gun laws that reliably prevented guns from getting in the hands of "bad guys" the good guys wouldn't need guns to protect themselves. But of course the gun industry and NRA don't want this and neither does congress, because they would lose a large part of their income.


    Unrestricted gun possession simply doesn't make sense to me


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  25. #50

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Big_E View Post
    Cost.

    The gun used in Sandy Hook costs $1000 in the US.

    On the black market in Australia it costs over $30,000.

    Look what has happened to marijuana costs in states where it's become legal. Plummeting prices.

    It's called supply and demand.

    Now imagine gun costs where a legal weapon is now against the law. How would you get a new assault rifle, if the company is not allowed to manufacture them in America, or import them from overseas?
    Really? Do you have a source for that $30,000 price tag?

    Because I just googled "australian guns for sale" and the first three sites contain plenty of guns way less than $30K:

    http://www.ozgunsales.com/searchresu...sortorder=desc

    http://usedgunsales.com.au/index.php...&submit=Search

    https://www.usedguns.com.au/Guns/used_military_rifles

    This also leads me to believe that there isn't a complete ban. I don't know the laws over there, but clearly you can still buy a gun.

    EDIT: Oh I see-- you're talking about that particular gun. You're still hung up on the 'assault rifle' label.
    Last edited by Mr Coffee; 10-04-15 at 10:50 AM.

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