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  1. #19026

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    You guys really think an AL team will allow a front-end starting pitcher to run the risk of injury by hitting and running the bases on his non-pitching days?

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it happening.
    Yeah, I think that's likely the case.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  2. #19027
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    You guys really think an AL team will allow a front-end starting pitcher to run the risk of injury by hitting and running the bases on his non-pitching days?

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it happening.
    Could be. That gives no advantage to an NL team though.
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  3. #19028

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    Could be. That gives no advantage to an NL team though.
    Well, it actually does if he decides that he wants to hit on a semi-regular basis.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  4. #19029
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Well, it actually does if he decides that he wants to hit on a semi-regular basis.
    How??
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  5. #19030

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    How??
    AL: DH. Pitchers don't hit.
    NL: Pitchers bat for themselves when they pitch.

    Thought it was pretty obvious...
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  6. #19031
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    AL: DH. Pitchers don't hit.
    NL: Pitchers bat for themselves when they pitch.

    Thought it was pretty obvious...
    When he starts the Yankees can forego the DH that game...

    http://www.nyyfansforum.com/showthre...=1#post8262717
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  7. #19032
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    The replacement level of DH is much higher. The value of Otani to NL teams is a lot higher because pitchers have to hit and Otani is likely to be way above replacement level at that spot. He also could PH and be the 4th OF at replacement level which gives NL team more flexibility in roster construction.

  8. #19033

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    The replacement level of DH is much higher. The value of Otani to NL teams is a lot higher because pitchers have to hit and Otani is likely to be way above replacement level at that spot. He also could PH and be the 4th OF at replacement level which gives NL team more flexibility in roster construction.
    Great points. I just think MLB teams are so worried about high-priced pitching talents that I wonder if they'll let him hit regularly and consequently run the bases, much less play the OF.

  9. #19034

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Melancynic View Post
    Great points. I just think MLB teams are so worried about high-priced pitching talents that I wonder if they'll let him hit regularly and consequently run the bases, much less play the OF.
    All it takes is for one team to make the offer. At that point, the other 29 teams will have to decide if they are ok with not having the player. If Boston makes the offer do the Yanks just say no? Cardinals/Cubs? Dodgers/Giants? We shall see but if this guy is as talented as he seems to be, and at 22/23 years old, do you bend the rules for someone who has ALWAYS hit and pitched?

  10. #19035

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Steve View Post
    All it takes is for one team to make the offer. At that point, the other 29 teams will have to decide if they are ok with not having the player. If Boston makes the offer do the Yanks just say no? Cardinals/Cubs? Dodgers/Giants? We shall see but if this guy is as talented as he seems to be, and at 22/23 years old, do you bend the rules for someone who has ALWAYS hit and pitched?
    For sure but I wonder if any team will.

  11. #19036
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Steve View Post
    All it takes is for one team to make the offer. At that point, the other 29 teams will have to decide if they are ok with not having the player. If Boston makes the offer do the Yanks just say no? Cardinals/Cubs? Dodgers/Giants? We shall see but if this guy is as talented as he seems to be, and at 22/23 years old, do you bend the rules for someone who has ALWAYS hit and pitched?
    There is a IFA cap so no team could make a crazy offer. You also can't write it in the contract to guarantee how many game he could play DH or hit.

    So it all comes down to how much he trusts the team that he is going to get those at bats as promised. It definitely would be easier for NL teams to convince him.

  12. #19037

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    I used to think that NL teams had a big advantage. But no more. I think the DH would be better suited for a guy, like him. He won't play the field, which would present a greater chance for injury compared to baserunning.

    In the NL, sure, he'd provide a big advantage during the games he pitches. But that's the extent of the advantage over the AL. I guess it comes down to if he wants to just hit and pitch, or also field.
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  13. #19038

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    I used to think that NL teams had a big advantage. But no more. I think the DH would be better suited for a guy, like him. He won't play the field, which would present a greater chance for injury compared to baserunning.

    In the NL, sure, he'd provide a big advantage during the games he pitches. But that's the extent of the advantage over the AL. I guess it comes down to if he wants to just hit and pitch, or also field.
    Agree, and in the AL he could even play the field from time to time. I think the hitting during games he pitches, being the DH or playing the field during games he doesn't, trumps the NL teams' ability to sign him.

    Now here is the interesting question... Do the Yanks have a better shot of signing Otani if Tanaka is still on the team? Assuming that Tanaka is going to opt out, would the Yanks appear to be more attractive to Otani if the team negotiates an extension BEFORE the opt out occurs, rather than letting Tanaka opt out and THEN resign him? Alternatively, letting him go or trading him before the deadline might really hurt our chances. This is all about appearances and the way that the Yankees treat one of his countrymen. Of course we also need to get Matsui involved in the lobbying campaign in any case.

  14. #19039
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    I wonder if signing bonuses count towards a players salary with regards to the luxury tax. IMO the Yanks need to figure out a way to pay Tanaka and Otani "off the books".
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  15. #19040
    Released Outright awy's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    yankees ownership would rather look for excuses to limit baseball spending. lol just lol expecting them to find ways to go over budget.

  16. #19041

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    I wonder if signing bonuses count towards a players salary with regards to the luxury tax. IMO the Yanks need to figure out a way to pay Tanaka and Otani "off the books".
    Of course a signing bonus counts. All payments are figured into the average annual figure. And Hal is not going to attempt to break rules set by the owners to limit spending.

  17. #19042
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    I wonder if signing bonuses count towards a players salary with regards to the luxury tax. IMO the Yanks need to figure out a way to pay Tanaka and Otani "off the books".
    That would be against the CBA.

    The Yankees should want him to come out this year when so many other teams can't bid.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
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  18. #19043

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    The players wouldn't care if an owner circumvented the luxury tax to pay more! It is the other owners that would.

  19. #19044
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    players are more interested in limiting how much foreign amateurs make than fighting the owners.

  20. #19045
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    The players wouldn't care if an owner circumvented the luxury tax to pay more! It is the other owners that would.
    Sadly the players care. The Union seems to think if the owners spend more at IFA, the less they would spend on the players. Otherwise no way the Union would approve the IFA cap. The Union is very shortsighted on this issue.

  21. #19046
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    The players wouldn't care if an owner circumvented the luxury tax to pay more! It is the other owners that would.
    they would care. they wanted this change to overseas amateurs to increase the money available for vets. the MLBPA has lost track focus on what they should be fighting for.

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    players are more interested in limiting how much foreign amateurs make than fighting the owners.
    the league office are the ones who'd stop it now the CBA is in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Sadly the players care. The Union seems to think if the owners spend more at IFA, the less they would spend on the players. Otherwise no way the Union would approve the IFA cap. The Union is very shortsighted on this issue.
    they completely screwed up the last CBA. the IFA cap was stupid. they think it increases the money to vets but all it does it make younger players cheaper and increase the chances of a vet not being employed because the team has a cheap youngster.

    the owners gave the wool to the union and the union pulled it over their own eyes.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  22. #19047

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    You people do not know what you are talking about regarding capping signing money on the international market. The union did not propose or negotiate for this. The owners have wanted an international draft for a long time and offered this as a compromise. You can argue that the union should not have accepted it, at least without getting something in return, but not that they proposed it or used bargaining leverage to push for it. That is simply false.

    It is also unfair to criticize a sports union for being more concerned about fair compensation for veteran players who have proven their worth in MLB than about the bonus money being payed to teenagers who have proven nothing.

    Also, even if contrary to fact, the union wanted to limit international bonuses in order to leave more money for veterans, they would not want to enforce the luxury tax against the veterans! And that is what was posed by the question of whether signing bonuses counted toward the luxury tax.
    Last edited by rajah; 04-21-17 at 09:55 AM.

  23. #19048
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    You people do not know what you are talking about regarding capping signing money on the international market. The union did not propose or negotiate for this. The owners have wanted an international draft for a long time and offered this as a compromise. You can argue that the union should not have accepted it, at least without getting something in return, but not that they proposed it or used bargaining leverage to push for it. That is simply false.

    It is also unfair to criticize a sports union for being more concerned about fair compensation for veteran players who have proven their worth in MLB than about the bonus money being payed to teenagers who have proven nothing.

    Also, even if contrary to fact, the union wanted to limit international bonuses in order to leave more money for veterans, they would not want to enforce the luxury tax against the veterans! And that is what was posed by the question of whether signing bonuses counted toward the luxury tax.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.
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  24. #19049
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    some players spoke up about it, but they accepted a worse option as far as the IFA market goes.


    with the increased importance of getting productive guys in their first 6 years, lots of veterans would be out of a job because clubs favor the cheap youngsters. this is that lump of jobs fallacy that labor groups often fall into.

  25. #19050

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    I think the players were Dominicans, urged on by Dominican agents who stand to lose the most.

    Figuring out a system to maximize aggregate salaries under semi-free market conditions, or aggregate veteran salaries, is not simple, and is more complicated with collective bargaining. The current system rewards the stars and the semi-stars, not the marginal veteran players who can be replaced by cheaper younger players.I think it has to be that way to keep the stars in solidarity.

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