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  1. #18926
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    I believe the Gamel trade was another example of getting value for someone they were going to lose in Rule V. The reality is the Yankees are going to lose some players over the next few seasons in rule V. The only issue I have is I thought Torrens had more value to the organization than a few of the players currently on the 40 man roster. Other than that I have no issues with who was protected.
    I'd be interested to see how many teams protect prospects with under a half season of Low A experience (and a fringy bat) with a 40 man spot. You probably only see that happening high draft pick, very toolsy guys that got unlucky with injury.

    Once they're on the 40, they're on it and using up that flexibility until they make it (and they usually won't, so you'll need to decide when to DFA and lose them for nothing), and with Low A guys it's gonna be for several years.

    There are definitely a couple 40 man roster spots used on mediocrity, but those guys you don't care if you DFA. There's obviously a tradeoff somewhere between flexibility and actually maximizing those spots, but I strongly doubt for most teams it would include a guy like Torrens.

  2. #18927
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    Art - I hear you.


    However, I truly believe that the Yankees, like every other team out there, played the odds, as they should. Low A guy, coming off major shoulder surgery, converted Catcher, lost a lot of development time, did not hit well, etc. They figured the odds of him being taken were slim, and the odds of him sticking were even less so.


    I don't think this was a case of he has lower value then others on the roster. But Torrens is 3 years away from being a legit candidate for New York, and the need to protect him was low.
    I understand the reasons they didn't protect him and that this can be argued both ways. My point was I thought Torrens was a potentially more valuable asset than some of the players currently on the 40 man roster. I would have liked to see what he could do a year removed from shoulder surgery before they exposed him. Just an observation, not getting bent out of shape over it.

  3. #18928
    "The Barrel" ClownPickle's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    You done Brian? Nothing else makes sense? Want to do something about our terrible infield?

  4. #18929
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    You done Brian? Nothing else makes sense? Want to do something about our terrible infield?

    There you go again. He's keeping the stopgaps ( Headly, Castro) in place until better options (Torress, Andujar) emerge, which is exactly what he should be doing.

  5. #18930
    "The Barrel" ClownPickle's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    There you go again. He's keeping the stopgaps ( Headly, Castro) in place until better options (Torress, Andujar) emerge, which is exactly what he should be doing.
    He needs a better plan than waiting for Torres and Andujar to improve 3 infield positions. That's an atrocious plan.

  6. #18931
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    He needs a better plan than waiting for Torres and Andujar to improve 3 infield positions. That's an atrocious plan.
    Better option is not limited to just those two.

  7. #18932
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    Better option is not limited to just those two.
    Agreed. Hence my desire for him to do something. Keeping 'stopgaps' around isn't a plan.

  8. #18933
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    The chances of Andujar even becoming a two win player is pretty slim. Headley has him beat in spades.

  9. #18934
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    You done Brian? Nothing else makes sense? Want to do something about our terrible infield?
    He signed Ruben Tejada

  10. #18935
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    The chances of Andujar even becoming a two win player is pretty slim. Headley has him beat in spades.
    Which may be at least part of the reason Cashman is reluctant to get rid of Headley.

  11. #18936
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    The chances of Andujar even becoming a two win player is pretty slim. Headley has him beat in spades.

    I don't know if you have ever seen Andujar play, but defensively, he is solid. Very good arm, and from what I have seen of him, he seems to have decent range. He charges bunts and slow rollers very well, and whips his throws to first accurately.


    To me, the whole question is will he hit, and will he hit for some power.

  12. #18937

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Agreed. Hence my desire for him to do something. Keeping 'stopgaps' around isn't a plan.
    It's like Cashman paying womens' rents "until they get back on their feet."

    No it's not. I just wanted to crowbar that in.



  13. #18938
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    big fan of torrens. think he has big league starting catcher in his future. but i'm totally fine with them not protecting him. baseball america said they were stunned he was taken in the draft as he's no where near being major league ready and keeping him on the roster for a year will not be easy.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  14. #18939
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    You done Brian? Nothing else makes sense? Want to do something about our terrible infield?
    terrible? it's not jeter-cano-arod-tex but it ain't something they should be trying to go hard after to improve. what is out there?
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  15. #18940
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    So far I give Cashman a B on the offseason. I don't like the money he gave Chapman or Holliday. But closers can pitch great well into their careers and Holliday is only a 1 year deal and has flexibility to not only DH but play the a corner OF spot or 1B giving guys days off. I like that we off loaded McCann as well. What I do want to see is a trade package including Mateo for a young SP. I don't want us to give up big prospects therefor I don't expect a big return like a Quintana. But I do not want to trade Torres or Frazier to get a big name. I'd rather stick to the game plan and let young SP like Sheffield, Acevedo, Kaprielian, Abreu, Tate, Adams, Clarkin, Montgomery and Green. Cashman did a great job in the field. The future starting 8 fielders for this Emma is nasty in a couple years. I don't want him to sacrifice the good pitching he's accumulated too.

  16. #18941
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby816 View Post
    So far I give Cashman a B on the offseason. I don't like the money he gave Chapman or Holliday. But closers can pitch great well into their careers and Holliday is only a 1 year deal and has flexibility to not only DH but play the a corner OF spot or 1B giving guys days off. I like that we off loaded McCann as well. What I do want to see is a trade package including Mateo for a young SP. I don't want us to give up big prospects therefor I don't expect a big return like a Quintana. But I do not want to trade Torres or Frazier to get a big name. I'd rather stick to the game plan and let young SP like Sheffield, Acevedo, Kaprielian, Abreu, Tate, Adams, Clarkin, Montgomery and Green. Cashman did a great job in the field. The future starting 8 fielders for this Emma is nasty in a couple years. I don't want him to sacrifice the good pitching he's accumulated too.

    You sure have a lot of "I's" in your post.


    You open by stating that you are not happy with the contracts given to Chapman or Holliday. Then you state reasons why they were good deals. Which is it? Truth be told, they did pay a very high price for Chapman, but if you wanted the elite, that's what it was going to cost. Without knowing exact figures, I am sure the Nats and or Marlins were right in there at the price points that Chapman and Jansen signed for.


    Just remember there is another team out there that you are trying to trade with. Maybe a package of Mateo and others does not get the job done for a young, cost-controlled starter.


    Also, no one around here wants to give up any of the top young talent. However, if the Yankees are to make trades for starting pitching, it will cost something from the top 10, and maybe even 2 pieces from there. That is why quitter a few folks around here are happy the Yankees are holding firm, so far.

  17. #18942

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    You sure have a lot of "I's" in your post.


    You open by stating that you are not happy with the contracts given to Chapman or Holliday. Then you state reasons why they were good deals. Which is it? Truth be told, they did pay a very high price for Chapman, but if you wanted the elite, that's what it was going to cost. Without knowing exact figures, I am sure the Nats and or Marlins were right in there at the price points that Chapman and Jansen signed for.


    Just remember there is another team out there that you are trying to trade with. Maybe a package of Mateo and others does not get the job done for a young, cost-controlled starter.


    Also, no one around here wants to give up any of the top young talent. However, if the Yankees are to make trades for starting pitching, it will cost something from the top 10, and maybe even 2 pieces from there. That is why quitter a few folks around here are happy the Yankees are holding firm, so far.
    Why would the Yankees want to make trades for starting pitching when the organization is loaded with young starting pitching?

    Depth in SP is more valuable than the "sure thing" because the starting pitching on anyone's roster can be a revolving door of players coming and going sure to injury, unexpected regression, failure to achieve potential, early retirement, free agency, etc. Look at all the pitcher's the Yankees have troughs in from outside the organization over the past 5 years and yet they're still looking for starting pitching:

    Tanaka
    Pineda
    Eovaldi
    Kuroda
    McCarthy
    Garcia
    Capuano

  18. #18943

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Why would the Yankees want to make trades for starting pitching when the organization is loaded with young starting pitching?

    Depth in SP is more valuable than the "sure thing" because the starting pitching on anyone's roster can be a revolving door of players coming and going sure to injury, unexpected regression, failure to achieve potential, early retirement, free agency, etc. Look at all the pitcher's the Yankees have troughs in from outside the organization over the past 5 years and yet they're still looking for starting pitching:

    Tanaka
    Pineda
    Eovaldi
    Kuroda
    McCarthy
    Garcia
    Capuano
    Not disagreeing with your point, but why are Garcia and Capuano on this list? They were Cashman dumpster dives and were never intended to be any sort of long-ish term solution. Tanaka and Kuroda delivered, and the org. fully understood Kuroda's deal - he was 39 when he left and I was surprised he stayed for the 3rd year. McCarthy was a deadline deal on an expiring contract who left on a ridiculous FA offer from LA. Pineda and Eovaldi are the two on the list that actually give your argument merit. Not trying to be over critical, but...

  19. #18944

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by freebubba View Post
    Not disagreeing with your point, but why are Garcia and Capuano on this list? They were Cashman dumpster dives and were never intended to be any sort of long-ish term solution. Tanaka and Kuroda delivered, and the org. fully understood Kuroda's deal - he was 39 when he left and I was surprised he stayed for the 3rd year. McCarthy was a deadline deal on an expiring contract who left on a ridiculous FA offer from LA. Pineda and Eovaldi are the two on the list that actually give your argument merit. Not trying to be over critical, but...
    I included Garcia and Capuano precisely because they were dumpster dives. And if I wanted to go back 6 years, I could have added Bartolo Colon to the list. Dumpster diving is exactly what GMs do when they have no better options within the system. When vacancies are created by normal attrition and they have to be filled by aging vets like these 3, the revolving door starts spinning faster as vacancies continually reoccur with greater frequency. As you said, these were not intended to be long term solutions, which meant that there was going to be a need to replace them very soon. Had the vacancy been filled by a promising prospect from within the organization, the need would have been filled for years to come. If the prospect flopped and the organization had more prospects behind him - as they do now - they could have turned to another youngster with the potential to be a long term solution.

    Garcia and Capuano in particular show the desperate situation the Yankees were in. Each of them was re-signed as a free agent for a second year to fill a spot in the rotation. They did that because they didn't have a better option within the organization. Garcia did in fact open his second season with the Yankees in the rotation. Although Capuano was signed with the intent of making him the 5th starter, he was injured in spring training and was unavailable to start the season.

    Look at what it cost the Yankees to re-sign Garcia and Capuano to their second seasons - $4 and $5 million respectively. That's $9 million for 2 players who were completely unproductive in the seasons for which they signed. They could have paid for 18 rookies at league minimum for what they paid those two. What a waste of resources.
    Last edited by Bill Marsh; 01-19-17 at 08:08 AM.

  20. #18945

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    I included Garcia and Capuano precisely because they were dumpster dives. And if I wanted to go back 6 years, I could have added Bartolommeo Colon to the list. Dumpster diving is exactly what GMs do when they have no better options within the system. When vacancies created by normal attrition and they have to be filled by aging vets like these 3, the revolving door starts spinning faster as vacancies continually reoccur with greTer frequency. As you said, these were not intended to be long term solutions, which meant that there was going to be a need to replace them very soon. Had the vacancy been filled by a promising prospect from within the organization, the need would have been filled for years to come. If the prospect flopped and the organization had more prospects behind him - as they do now - they could have turned to another youngster with the potential to be a long term solution.

    Garcia and Capuano in particular show the desperate situation the Yankees were in. Each of them was re-signed as a free agent for a second year to fill a spot in the rotation. They did that because they didn't have a better option within the organization. Garcia did in fact open his second season with the Yankees in the rotation. Although Capuano was signed with the intent of making him the 5th starter, he was injured in spring training and was unavailable to start the season.

    Look at what it cost the Yankees to re-sign Garcia and Capuano to their second seasons - $4 and $5 million respectively. That's $9 million for 2 players who were comp,steely unproductive in the seasons for which they signed. They could have paid for 18 rookies at league minimum for what they paid those two. What a waste of resources.
    OK, thanks for the clarification. I did not read that as the argument you were making initially.

  21. #18946
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-b...nkees-rebuild/

    "How Brian Cashman Sold the Yankees' Rebuild"


    I enjoyed this FG article.

  22. #18947
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-b...nkees-rebuild/

    "How Brian Cashman Sold the Yankees' Rebuild"


    I enjoyed this FG article.
    Me too.

  23. #18948
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/how-b...nkees-rebuild/

    "How Brian Cashman Sold the Yankees' Rebuild"

    I enjoyed this FG article.
    Yeah, lots of interesting quotes. Not even done with the article, but this stuck out:

    Quote Originally Posted by fangraphs
    “Turning the clock back with Robby Cano, it looked like he was going to stay with us. We pursued an extension with him ,and it wasn’t even close with what he wanted,” Cashman said. “He was, to me, someone we ultimately should have moved at the deadline but didn’t. So he left us as a free agent.”
    Extension aside, I don't remember Cashman saying he wanted to trade Cano before (maybe I just didn't pay attention then), so that's interesting to read

  24. #18949
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace View Post
    Yeah, lots of interesting quotes. Not even done with the article, but this stuck out:



    Extension aside, I don't remember Cashman saying he wanted to trade Cano before (maybe I just didn't pay attention then), so that's interesting to read
    It's funny, that's the exact quote I texted some friends today and it's the exact quote that I later saw posted on RAB from the article. I guess that resonated with all of us.

  25. #18950
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    We'll never know the truth, but I wonder what that extension number was.

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