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  1. #19426
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Well deserved award by Cashman. We've given him a lot of ___ over the years but he has been on an amazing role recently. As good as anything his Ed Barrow or George Weiss ever had. For me his best move was still getting Dave Justice for Ricky Ledee and two minor leaguers. Justice went on a tear after we got him.
    When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it."

  2. #19427

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by oneill96 View Post
    Well deserved award by Cashman. We've given him a lot of ___ over the years but he has been on an amazing role recently. As good as anything his Ed Barrow or George Weiss ever had. For me his best move was still getting Dave Justice for Ricky Ledee and two minor leaguers. Justice went on a tear after we got him.
    One of those minor leaguers was Jake Westbrook.

  3. #19428
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    One of those minor leaguers was Jake Westbrook.
    That's a nice factoid (I kinda think that's where you were going with that). Of course, that trade was completed at the end of June '00, a time when the Yankees were faced with the fact they either go out and infuse some power into that lineup, or likely end their run of back to back WS championships, because outside of Jeter, Posada and Bernie, everybody else underperformed (to a varying degree).

    Justice LOL. He was brought on and proceeded to hit 20 HR in 275 AB (319 PA)...And Westbrook..I mean..that's a guy who somewhat underperformed to career expectations, right?
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  4. #19429

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    That's a nice factoid (I kinda think that's where you were going with that). Of course, that trade was completed at the end of June '00, a time when the Yankees were faced with the fact they either go out and infuse some power into that lineup, or likely end their run of back to back WS championships, because outside of Jeter, Posada and Bernie, everybody else underperformed (to a varying degree).

    Justice LOL. He was brought on and proceeded to hit 20 HR in 275 AB (319 PA)...And Westbrook..I mean..that's a guy who somewhat underperformed to career expectations, right?
    Yes, it's just a factoid to consider. Point being that they didn't give away an insignificant minor leaguer who never did anything. They traded away a pitcher who had a 14 year major league career, won a couple of games in the postseason including one in the World Series, and who was an All Star at his peak.

    It was pretty typical of the Yankees in those days to trade away their future for a short term gain. There's no doubt that Justice was a very exciting addition to that 2000 team. But his presence in the lineup didn't prevent the team from losing 15 of 18 to end the season and he didn't do much in the postseason despite an undeserved ALCS MVP. (They had to give it to someone and he had a couple of HRs.) Westbrook may have underperformed somewhat for his career, but Justice disappointed as well, as his career tanked the year after they got him.

    Westbrook's career was derailed by TJS, but it peaked at the very point when they could have used him. Pettitte, Clemens, and Wells all left after the 2003 season, and the Yankees were faced with having to rebuild their pitching staff with the likes of an over-the-hill Kevin Brown. Westbrook certainly wouldn't have been a cornerstone of that rebuilding project, but he could have been a useful piece at that time.

  5. #19430
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Yes, it's just a factoid to consider. Point being that they didn't give away an insignificant minor leaguer who never did anything. They traded away a pitcher who had a 14 year major league career, won a couple of games in the postseason including one in the World Series, and who was an All Star at his peak.

    It was pretty typical of the Yankees in those days to trade away their future for a short term gain. There's no doubt that Justice was a very exciting addition to that 2000 team. But his presence in the lineup didn't prevent the team from losing 15 of 18 to end the season and he didn't do much in the postseason despite an undeserved ALCS MVP. (They had to give it to someone and he had a couple of HRs.) Westbrook may have underperformed somewhat for his career, but Justice disappointed as well, as his career tanked the year after they got him.

    Westbrook's career was derailed by TJS, but it peaked at the very point when they could have used him. Pettitte, Clemens, and Wells all left after the 2003 season, and the Yankees were faced with having to rebuild their pitching staff with the likes of an over-the-hill Kevin Brown. Westbrook certainly wouldn't have been a cornerstone of that rebuilding project, but he could have been a useful piece at that time.
    Thereís a difference between trading away the talent they did in the 80s and the trade that netted David Justice because it played out the way they needed it to: the bat they added for the 2nd half of the season provided the same HR rate he had in CLE (41 HR / 162 games). And yes, while they swooned in September, itís not like his 7 HR, .911 OPS in the month of September played a large part in their losing 15 of 18 games. Iíd also argue that he was critical to the Yankeesí success in the 2nd half of the series v the Mariners, which played a huge part in their winning the series in 6 games.

    I mean, if (and only if) the Yankees didnít win the World Series can you look back and wonder if they shouldíve traded Westbrook for Justice. But even then, youíre looking back with the benefit of hindsight. As it stands, that trade helped solidify their chances to win their 26th World Series title...and frankly, thatís what itís all about.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  6. #19431

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    B b
    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    There’s a difference between trading away the talent they did in the 80s and the trade that netted David Justice because it played out the way they needed it to: the bat they added for the 2nd half of the season provided the same HR rate he had in CLE (41 HR / 162 games). And yes, while they swooned in September, it’s not like his 7 HR, .911 OPS in the month of September played a large part in their losing 15 of 18 games. I’d also argue that he was critical to the Yankees’ success in the 2nd half of the series v the Mariners, which played a huge part in their winning the series in 6 games.

    I mean, if (and only if) the Yankees didn’t win the World Series can you look back and wonder if they should’ve traded Westbrook for Justice. But even then, you’re looking back with the benefit of hindsight. As it stands, that trade helped solidify their chances to win their 26th World Series title...and frankly, that’s what it’s all about.
    Good points. Not saying they shouldn't have made the trade. They did get return on it. Nor was I blaming Justice for the late season swoon. Just saying that they could have done that with or without him.

    My only point was that the trade wasn't as simple as Ledee and a couple of minor leaguers. Westbrook was a significant talent to give away in that deal. Yes, it's totally hindsight, but that trade reminds me a lot of the '80's. The big difference is that they didn't win anything in the '80's when they were throwing away young pitching talent with a lot of upside.

  7. #19432
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    B b

    Good points. Not saying they shouldn't have made the trade. They did get return on it. Nor was I blaming Justice for the late season swoon. Just saying that they could have done that with or without him.

    My only point was that the trade wasn't as simple as Ledee and a couple of minor leaguers. Westbrook was a significant talent to give away in that deal. Yes, it's totally hindsight, but that trade reminds me a lot of the '80's. The big difference is that they didn't win anything in the '80's when they were throwing away young pitching talent with a lot of upside.
    The cruelest of all ironies? The Yankees won more regular season games in the 1980s than any other team in baseball (by 15 games)...
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  8. #19433

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    The cruelest of all ironies? The Yankees won more regular season games in the 1980s than any other team in baseball (by 15 games)...
    Yeah, people keep telling us that the Yankees didn't do much in the 1980s. It's true they didn't win a WS in that decade, but it wasn't awful either compared to other organizations.

  9. #19434
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Yeah, people keep telling us that the Yankees didn't do much in the 1980s. It's true they didn't win a WS in that decade, but it was awful either compared to other organizations.
    George also spun the organization into the ground in order to claim that top prize, too.

    Itís pretty safe to say that had Fay Vincent not run George Steinbrenner the bleep out of the sport for a couple years, those 4 WS titles (96-98, 00) likely do not happen.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  10. #19435

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Yeah, people keep telling us that the Yankees didn't do much in the 1980s. It's true they didn't win a WS in that decade, but it was awful either compared to other organizations.
    The organization was mismanaged. They had the talent to win, but they repeatedly dumped their minor league prospects for veterans whose best days were behind them. Particularly detrimental in the 1980's was the loss of young pitchers with a ton of talent:

    Jose Rijo - 1990 Ace of the Reds' World Series champs
    Doug Drabek - 1990 CY Young winner
    Bob Tewksbury - 1992 ERA title R/U
    Al Leiter - won 162 major league games, pitched for 2 WS champs

  11. #19436

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    The organization was mismanaged. They had the talent to win, but they repeatedly dumped their minor league prospects for veterans whose best days were behind them. Particularly detrimental in the 1980's was the loss of young pitchers with a ton of talent:

    Jose Rijo - Ace of the Reds' World Series champs in 1990
    Doug Drabek - 1990 CY Young winner
    Bob Tewksbury - 1992 ERA title R/U
    Al Leiter - won 162 major league games, pitched for 2 WS champs
    Nobody is arguing that it was mismanaged which led to those down years 89-92. I thought I reliving my childhood again circa 1965. These young Yankee fans had it great in comparison to some of us old-timers. I've experienced two down periods that weren't much fun.

  12. #19437
    Make the Yankees great again!!
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    Nobody is arguing that it was mismanaged which led to those down years 89-92. I thought I reliving my childhood again circa 1965. These young Yankee fans had it great in comparison to some of us old-timers. I've experienced two down periods that weren't much fun.
    The infield in my formative years was Johnny Ellis at first, Horace Clarke at scond, Gene Michael at SS, Jerry Kenny at 3B, and Jake Gibbs behind the plate. Most Yankee fans have not experienced that level of futility.

  13. #19438
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    The organization was mismanaged. They had the talent to win, but they repeatedly dumped their minor league prospects for veterans whose best days were behind them. Particularly detrimental in the 1980's was the loss of young pitchers with a ton of talent:

    Jose Rijo - 1990 Ace of the Reds' World Series champs
    Doug Drabek - 1990 CY Young winner
    Bob Tewksbury - 1992 ERA title R/U
    Al Leiter - won 162 major league games, pitched for 2 WS champs
    Agree Bill, the old man ran the organization like a fan, it was badly mismanaged. With competent management the 80's Yankees would at a minimum made several post season appearances and would have avoided the 89-92 disaster. We may not agree with all of Hal's decisions but he is running a competent business.

  14. #19439
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    The organization was mismanaged. They had the talent to win, but they repeatedly dumped their minor league prospects for veterans whose best days were behind them. Particularly detrimental in the 1980's was the loss of young pitchers with a ton of talent:

    Jose Rijo - 1990 Ace of the Reds' World Series champs
    Doug Drabek - 1990 CY Young winner
    Bob Tewksbury - 1992 ERA title R/U
    Al Leiter - won 162 major league games, pitched for 2 WS champs
    You could've added Larry Gura from the mid 70s as a precursor of things to come.

    That list omits position players, such as:

    Willie McGee
    Fred McGriff
    Hal Morris
    Jay Buhner

    (I know there are others, but they're the ones who come to mind immediately)..
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  15. #19440
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    The infield in my formative years was Johnny Ellis at first, Horace Clarke at scond, Gene Michael at SS, Jerry Kenny at 3B, and Jake Gibbs behind the plate. Most Yankee fans have not experienced that level of futility.
    Same here, only my recollection would have Joe Pepitone at First instead of Ellis. Stottlemyer, Peterson plus a couple other guys in the rotation. Womack, McDaniel, and Steve Hamilton in the bullpen.


    Those were some genuinely bad teams, yet oddly, I miss those days.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  16. #19441
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Same here, only my recollection would have Joe Pepitone at First instead of Ellis. Stottlemyer, Peterson plus a couple other guys in the rotation. Womack, McDaniel, and Steve Hamilton in the bullpen.


    Those were some genuinely bad teams, yet oddly, I miss those days.

    The other half of the wife swapping caper, Mike Kekich, was also part of the rotation. And who can forget Steve Hamilton's folly floater and Willie Horton crawling back to the dugout.....

  17. #19442
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Justice LOL. He was brought on and proceeded to hit 20 HR in 275 AB (319 PA)...And Westbrook..I mean..that's a guy who somewhat underperformed to career expectations, right?
    That's not my memory. I don't remember Westbrook being considered a particularly prized prospect, the guys in that era who they seemed to have high hopes for (and who fizzled) were guys like Ed Yarnall and a little later, Brandon Clausen. I thought Westbrook did about all you could ask considering he didn't throw really hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    The organization was mismanaged. They had the talent to win, but they repeatedly dumped their minor league prospects for veterans whose best days were behind them. Particularly detrimental in the 1980's was the loss of young pitchers with a ton of talent:

    Jose Rijo - 1990 Ace of the Reds' World Series champs
    Doug Drabek - 1990 CY Young winner
    Bob Tewksbury - 1992 ERA title R/U
    Al Leiter - won 162 major league games, pitched for 2 WS champs
    Also traded away Jim (Two Silhouettes On) Deshaies, who went on to have an OK 12-year career as a back-of-rotation guy.

  18. #19443
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    The other half of the wife swapping caper, Mike Kekich, was also part of the rotation. And who can forget Steve Hamilton's folly floater and Willie Horton crawling back to the dugout.....
    June 24, 1970. Tony Horton, though, not Willie. Two batters later, Hamilton did the hesitation thing, but then threw a fastball (instead of the Floater) by Roy Foster for a strike out. That same day, Bobby Murcer hit four consecutive home runs, split between games in a doubleheader.


    I was in box seats, about a dozen rows behind the third base dugout. Best day at the ballpark EVER.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  19. #19444

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Same here, only my recollection would have Joe Pepitone at First instead of Ellis. Stottlemyer, Peterson plus a couple other guys in the rotation. Womack, McDaniel, and Steve Hamilton in the bullpen.


    Those were some genuinely bad teams, yet oddly, I miss those days.
    They could always pitch during those years. They just couldn't hit worth a darn. Things started changing when Munson came up to the big club. George liked to take credit but I thought things were starting to get better before he got there. (and the Gabe Paul chicanery trading Nettles to the Yanks when Paul knew he would become their GM, well, you can make of that what you want will.)
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  20. #19445

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Same here, only my recollection would have Joe Pepitone at First instead of Ellis. Stottlemyer, Peterson plus a couple other guys in the rotation. Womack, McDaniel, and Steve Hamilton in the bullpen.


    Those were some genuinely bad teams, yet oddly, I miss those days.
    Speaking of Ellis, one of the best baseball fights I ever saw was a fight that broke out between the Yankees and Indians. I think it started when Sudden Sam McDowell slid in hard at 2nd base and knocked the crap out of Stick Michael.

    Ellis took on about half of the Indians team and was knocking them down like bowling pins. I mean, Ellis went "complete Psycho", one minute he was at the bottom of a pile of players and next minute, that pile of humanity exploded and bodies were flying everywhere and there were John Ellis fighting the Indians team like he was in a WWF Battle Royal Match.

  21. #19446
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    June 24, 1970. Tony Horton, though, not Willie. Two batters later, Hamilton did the hesitation thing, but then threw a fastball (instead of the Floater) by Roy Foster for a strike out. That same day, Bobby Murcer hit four consecutive home runs, split between games in a doubleheader.


    I was in box seats, about a dozen rows behind the third base dugout. Best day at the ballpark EVER.

    I remember that doubleheader like it was yesterday. If I'm not mistaken Hamilton's hesitation pitch was called the "hesitation hummer".

  22. #19447

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    They could always pitch during those years. They just couldn't hit worth a darn. Things started changing when Munson came up to the big club. George liked to take credit but I thought things were starting to get better before he got there. (and the Gabe Paul chicanery trading Nettles to the Yanks when Paul knew he would become their GM, well, you can make of that what you want will.)
    If George had acquired some patience and let a good GM do his job, he would've won at least a couple more WS championships. Hopefully, Hal has studied the mistakes made by his father and will continue to let Cashman do his job with minimum interference.

  23. #19448
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post
    That's not my memory. I don't remember Westbrook being considered a particularly prized prospect, the guys in that era who they seemed to have high hopes for (and who fizzled) were guys like Ed Yarnall and a little later, Brandon Clausen. I thought Westbrook did about all you could ask considering he didn't throw really hard.
    You're correct, and if anything the case could be made that Westbrook over delivered on reasonable career expectations for him. Westbrook was only in the Yankee organization for literally 6 months before they dealt him away, with BA having him ranked as the Yankees 10th best prospect in 2000.

    The team that really screwed up getting involved in a Jake Westbrook trade was San Diego, who stepped into a three-way with Cleveland and St Louis a few years later, and gave the Indians Corey Kluber.
    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  24. #19449
    Super Moderator matt2351's Avatar
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    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post
    That's not my memory. I don't remember Westbrook being considered a particularly prized prospect, the guys in that era who they seemed to have high hopes for (and who fizzled) were guys like Ed Yarnall and a little later, Brandon Clausen. I thought Westbrook did about all you could ask considering he didn't throw really hard.

    Also traded away Jim (Two Silhouettes On) Deshaies, who went on to have an OK 12-year career as a back-of-rotation guy.
    Cashman traded Mike Lowell for Ed Yarnall, Mark Johnson, and Todd Noel. Just a horrific trade.

    http://www.nytimes.com/1999/02/02/sp...-pitching.html

  25. #19450

    Re: Brian Cashman Performance Thread 2.0

    I remember Brandon Claussen making his MLB debut against the Mets and pitching really well. I was high on him because I so badly wanted them to have a homegrown stud pitcher. I was super mad when they dealt him at the trading deadline for...

    Aaron Boone
    He gone!

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