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  1. #76

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Mussina was the most valuable pitcher in baseball in 1994.

  2. #77

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellsing
    I just don't see Moose as being a HOF. Pedro doesn't have a ton of wins, but HE belongs in the HOF.

    Moose was never the best pitcher in any year. His best year (1992), he was not as good as Clemens, Maddux, or Glavine. He only had 2 sub 3 ERA seasons. (His first two) His K totals are good, but not great. He was never that 'invincible' pitcher that scared a lineup.

    IMHO, he is a borderline great pitcher, but not HOF material.

    The case for Moose is stronger if you consider that he MAY have been clean the ENTIRE time and was facing juicers.
    Agreed on Pedro. Like Koufax, he has a peak (99-2003) that will get him in despite less-than-gaudy win totals.

    Like I said, I think you can make a case for Mussina, but he's no slam dunk. I just took a look at Moose's similarity scores over at BRef and I think they demonstrate how borderline he is: Marichal, Wells, Schilling, Palmer, Hubbell, Andy, Brown, Morris, Griffith and Bunning. Pretty good company, but on the edge of the Hall. Definitely in the Hall of Very Good.

  3. #78
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t
    Ask any M's fans who saw him pitch in the play-off in 90s. It seems people forget how good he was when he was in the O's. And you don't need to be better than all-time top 20 pitchers to be a HOFer. Last time I checked, the standard was much lower than that.
    Moose never consistently lead the league in anything noteworthy. Like I said, he was a very good pitcher. Excellent at times, but, again, IMHO, not a HOF pitcher.

    You're right about the standard though.

    I think of HOF as people who help define the game over the years. Can you tell the story of Baseball without Pedro, Pete Rose, Derek Jeter, Gregg Maddux, or Ozzie Smith? No.

    Can you tell it without Mike Mussina?

  4. #79
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by sprucemoose
    Agreed on Pedro. Like Koufax, he has a peak (99-2003) that will get him in despite less-than-gaudy win totals.

    Like I said, I think you can make a case for Mussina, but he's no slam dunk. I just took a look at Moose's similarity scores over at BRef and I think they demonstrate how borderline he is: Marichal, Wells, Schilling, Palmer, Hubbell, Andy, Brown, Morris, Griffith and Bunning. Pretty good company, but on the edge of the Hall. Definitely in the Hall of Very Good.
    This. That's all I am saying.

    EDIT: Again, if Moose was clean, which I believe he was, then his numbers are all the more impressive given the era.

  5. #80

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellsing
    This. That's all I am saying.

    EDIT: Again, if Moose was clean, which I believe he was, then his numbers are all the more impressive given the era.
    Indeed. It will be interesting to see how much of a role this plays in the minds of voters.

    Also, if Morris gets in, everything changes.

  6. #81
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellsing
    You're right about the standard though.

    I think of HOF as people who help define the game over the years. Can you tell the story of Baseball without Pedro, Pete Rose, Derek Jeter, Gregg Maddux, or Ozzie Smith? No.

    Can you tell it without Mike Mussina?
    This is your standard about HOF, not the HOF standard. Bob Lemon is in the Hall. Don Sutton is in the Hall. Jim Bunning is in the Hall. Fergie Jenkins is in the Hall. Can you tell the story of Baseball without them?

  7. #82

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    The story of baseball. Yeah.

  8. #83
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by 2PhonesMaccabee
    I think Buehrle would have to either get 300 wins or wake up tomorrow able to pitch like Koufax for the next 6 years to be a hall of famer. In 10 years he is 135-97 with a 3.80 ERA and 1,188 K's. He would need 11 more years to get 300 wins if he keeps up the same pace, plus he will need to lower his ERA like half a point. A cy young or two wouldn't hurt either.
    His average win total has been dropping, but I don't really care too much about that. For his pitching style he should be able to pitch for a long time and have a career like Glavine, but he's talked about retiring once his current contract is up.
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  9. #84
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuban Connection
    His average win total has been dropping, but I don't really care too much about that. For his pitching style he should be able to pitch for a long time and have a career like Glavine, but he's talked about retiring once his current contract is up.
    He is one of my favorite pitcher. Not to say that he is in the same level, but he is the closest thing to Maddux IMO. I hope he can be a HOFer. But he really needs 300 wins to have a chance. Without 300 wins he will be viewed as Jim Kaat or Tommy John, assuming he continues to pitch and doesn't have a rapid decline.

  10. #85
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    So, I started this thread on 1/25/09 and received a lot of mixed responses as to whether or not he'd eventually make it in. As we get ready to face Roy tonight, anyone care to change their answers?

  11. #86
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    It' still a counting game.

  12. #87
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    it's pretty lame of you to bring this thread up right before our team faces him, with our ace currently in a slump, as I'm about going to attend the game and no doubt encounter slews of lame Phillies fans at the stadium

  13. #88
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    4.85 ERA at YS last season with a 1.846 WHIP (1 start shhhhh). Welcome back to the AL, Roy.

  14. #89
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Since the thread started, he has an ERA of 2.54 in 340 IP, 1.09 WHIP, 290 K's and a 25-14 record.

  15. #90

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by delv
    it's pretty lame of you to bring this thread up right before our team faces him, with our ace currently in a slump, as I'm about going to attend the game and no doubt encounter slews of lame Phillies fans at the stadium
    What do you have to fear from Phillies fans? Not only did we beat them last year, they went from two-time NL champ to a team that doesn't look good enough to make the playoffs.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  16. #91
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellsing
    Mark Buehrle? Are you guys kidding me? He's NEVER been in the top 5 SPs in any year of his career. He's a nice pitcher, but he doesn't belong anywhere NEAR the HOF.

    Neither does Moose.
    Agree about Buehrle, disagree about Mussina. Guys like Moose and Schilling are strong borderline cases. Im not sure I would say yes to both of them, but strong arguments can be made.

    Buehrle doesnt make the HOF unless some Hollywood **** happens.

  17. #92
    Ace of the Staff JeterRodriguezSheff's Avatar
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by DEADSOX
    Moose got the short end of the stick quite a few times, 2nd in Cy Young one year (with 6 top five finishes), one out from a perfect game, one out from a world series ring, he's always had a stellar BB/K ratio, and was one of the best fielding pitchers of his time. Not to mention he had some extremely dominating postseason performances with the O's especially. He did it all in the AL facing dominant Yankee and Red Sox teams too, I'd put him in not first ballot obviously, but definitely later on down the line.
    Yea sometimes I refer to Mussina as "the almost guy". Almost a WS ring, almost a perfect game(against Boston no less), almost a cy young and up until his last season almost 20 wins. It would be a shame but sort of fitting in that sense if he only "almost makes" the HOF.

  18. #93
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14
    What do you have to fear from Phillies fans? Not only did we beat them last year, they went from two-time NL champ to a team that doesn't look good enough to make the playoffs.
    Their fruitloop, posturing presence will no doubt lead to endless "asshole" chants throughout the course of the game. I project at least 3 times as many instances of the "asshole chant" as there will be Yankee hits. I'll let you know how it turns out when I return.

  19. #94
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by JeterRodriguezSheff
    Yea sometimes I refer to Mussina as "the almost guy". Almost a WS ring, almost a perfect game(against Boston no less), almost a cy young and up until his last season almost 20 wins. It would be a shame but sort of fitting in that sense if he only "almost makes" the HOF.
    One thing he does have in his favor is that every pitcher who finished his career 100 wins over .500 is in the HOF. He ended up with 270-153. I don't think he'll get in on the first ballot, but I expect him to be voted in eventually. As much as it pains me to say it, I think Schilling will too.
    September 28, 2008 - the day the HOF got a wake-up Moose call.

  20. #95
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYDragoon
    4.85 ERA at YS last season with a 1.846 WHIP (1 start shhhhh). Welcome back to the AL, Roy.
    Ah yes. Doc's NYS struggles continue .

  21. #96
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    The NL is making him soft. Welcome back to the AL East, Roy.
    "Every season brings this possibility. Every season features the promise of transcendence." - SJ Gould

  22. #97

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    fall back Roy Halladay

  23. #98

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    It depends on how much lower the bar is when he retires.

    The way things have been going, in 10 years they'll need a Wal Mart warehouse to house the HOF and an outhouse to house the guys who don't make it.

  24. #99
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    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy #1
    It depends on how much lower the bar is when he retires.

    The way things have been going, in 10 years they'll need a Wal Mart warehouse to house the HOF and an outhouse to house the guys who don't make it.
    Herb Pennock was inducted in 1948. How much lower the bar can be now?

  25. #100

    Re: Roy Halladay and the Hall of Fame

    Halladay just won 20 games. He seems the favorite to win his 2nd Cy.

    If he makes it to a third Cy in the next few years, and has a typical "reduction" in skills, he should make it in. Afterall, if he doesn't make it (as a starter from this era), then who does?

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