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yankeefan24
03-22-06, 03:23 PM
Newsday.com haS a new story about Gary Sheffield and Balco. I wonder how sheffield will respond.

brosiusbuddy
03-22-06, 03:24 PM
link???

NYYBombshell
03-22-06, 03:28 PM
I can see this ending well.

UncleSam
03-22-06, 03:28 PM
Newsday.com haS a new story about Gary Sheffield and Balco. I wonder how sheffield will respond.

One word. Angrily.

nydeano
03-22-06, 03:32 PM
Linky (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spsheff0323,0,2356123.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines)

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 03:42 PM
Mike and the Maddog are talking about it now. Saying Sheffeild used stuff that was injected into him. It was different than what he said in front of the grand jury.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 03:43 PM
Now Sweeny Murty is on. And he's not aware of whats going on. And now reporters are just getting word on the book.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 03:46 PM
Is this the same book with the reporters from San Fransisco or a different book?

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 03:49 PM
Maddog just siad a Giant has company.

LuckyLopez
03-22-06, 03:52 PM
Is this the same book with the reporters from San Fransisco or a different book?
Yes, its the same book.



http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spsheff0323,0,2356123.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines

"Game of Shadows," the explosive new book that puts together a damning dossier on Barry Bonds' steroid usage, also offers some new details of Gary Sheffield's relationship with the slugger and performance-enhancing drugs.

Specifically, Sheffield -- who reportedly testified to the BALCO grand jury in December 2003 that he unknowingly used steroids -- took injectable testosterone and human growth hormone in January 2002, according to the book, written by San Francisco Chronicle reporters Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams. And the Yankees' rightfielder tried to maintain a relationship with Bonds' infamous trainer Greg Anderson, even after Bonds and Sheffield had a falling out.

...

In Sheffield's reported testimony, and a subsequent interview with Sports Illustrated, he spoke of using only "The Clear" and "The Cream," the former an oral drug, the latter applied by rubbing on his knees. Those drugs made an "unknowing" defense slightly more feasible, unlike injectable testosterone and HGH, which is also administered through a subcutaneous injection.

Sheffield and Bonds worked out together in the offseasons following 2001 and 2002, and Bonds introduced Sheffield to Anderson. It was a drug calendar kept by Anderson, according to the book, that documented Sheffield's use of HGH and testosterone.

When Bonds and Sheffield cut off communication that second offseason, due to several arguments, Sheffield attempted to obtain The Cream and The Clear through Anderson, the book reports.

M&MD are saying that Sheffield gave a "no comment."

ICEBERG18
03-22-06, 03:54 PM
Maddog just siad a Giant has company.

Wasn't Sheffield always implicated with Bonds?

LuckyLopez
03-22-06, 03:56 PM
Wasn't Sheffield always implicated with Bonds?
Well the difference would be that Sheffield claimed that he unknowingly took the steroids and that Bonds was personally responsible for giving them to him. The book appears to contradict that and says that after Bonds and Sheffield parted ways Sheffield sought out steroids on his own. It also, supposedly, says that the PHDs that Sheffield took were more invassive than he claimed (setting up the idea that he couldn't have taken them without knowing what they were).

There's also, of course, the other aspect of this that Sheffield has managed to stay more or less clear of this in the court of public opinion. He's gotten much less attention and criticism than Bonds, Giambi, Palmeiro, McGwire, and even someone like Sosa who isn't tied to this. So perhaps this changes that.

Ditka85Bear
03-22-06, 03:57 PM
The other Giant Dog is referring to is Marvin Benard.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 03:58 PM
Wasn't Sheffield always implicated with Bonds?

I guess because he's mentioned in the book as well. Giambi is on the cover of the book but hardly mentioned.

Maddog always had fans call up the show about Bonds. So he's happy.

Snatch Catch
03-22-06, 03:59 PM
Giambi keeps looking better and better for representing himself the way he did (even if it wasn't optimal)...

indianyanksfan
03-22-06, 04:00 PM
mike is going ga ga over the old yankees and cant wait for moose, giambi, and sheff to leave...

:wtf:

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 04:02 PM
I've always said this about steroids in Baseball. I'm not bashing any of these guys because I cheered just like everyone else and I was at the game in 2002 when Bonds was in Yankee Stadium.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 04:03 PM
mike is going ga ga over the old yankees and cant wait for moose, giambi, and sheff to leave...

:wtf:

I know, I'm assuming he didn't think that way when Giambi hit those two HRs of off Pedro.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 04:04 PM
Giambi keeps looking better and better for representing himself the way he did (even if it wasn't optimal)...

I agree

LuckyLopez
03-22-06, 04:08 PM
I know, I'm assuming he didn't think that way when Giambi hit those two HRs of off Pedro.
In fairness he's been pretty consistent on Sheffield and Giambi that last few years. Its part of what makes so many Yankee fans criticize and dislike him (and often question his fandom).

Tex_Pettite
03-22-06, 04:09 PM
Giambi keeps looking better and better for representing himself the way he did (even if it wasn't optimal)...

Look better how? He's never admitted to anything publicly.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 04:11 PM
I actually remember Francessa liking Giambi getting signed.

indianyanksfan
03-22-06, 04:12 PM
Look better how? He's never admitted to anything publicly.


he didnt lie in front of the grand jury and at least showed some contrition unlike the others. he's also made an effort to get in touch wtih the fans.

LuckyLopez
03-22-06, 04:15 PM
I actually remember Francessa liking Giambi getting signed.
I admit I can't think back that far. I can't recall how he felt about Sheffield's signing either. I just feel comfortable in saying that he hasn't defended the two of them in the last couple of years since the BALCO think hit and he's been more or less consistent on not really loving them (in the way he clearly does his favorities). But its really sort of a moot subject. I'm not 100% sure why I was compelled to defend Francessa's integrity.

indianyanksfan
03-22-06, 04:17 PM
I admit I can't think back that far. I can't recall how he felt about Sheffield's signing either. I just feel comfortable in saying that he hasn't defended the two of them in the last couple of years since the BALCO think hit and he's been more or less consistent on not really loving them (in the way he clearly does his favorities). But its really sort of a moot subject. I'm not 100% sure why I was compelled to defend Francessa's integrity.


maybe you're having a bad day? :dunno:

Tex_Pettite
03-22-06, 04:20 PM
he didnt lie in front of the grand jury and at least showed some contrition unlike the others. he's also made an effort to get in touch wtih the fans.

True. He didn't lie in front of the grand jury, but he has admitted nothing to the general public. I also don't like how he still goes around wearing Better Living Through Chemistry t-shirts. That doesn't seem very remorseful. He is flaunting his steroid use.

yankees27
03-22-06, 04:27 PM
True. He didn't lie in front of the grand jury, but he has admitted nothing to the general public. I also don't like how he still goes around wearing Better Living Through Chemistry t-shirts. That doesn't seem very remorseful. He is flaunting his steroid use.
He was not legally allowed to comment on his illegally leaked grand jury testimony during what was still an ongoing trial.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 04:31 PM
The book said Giambi had Steriods sent to his Parents house. Giambi is the one I really feel bad for.

Wade_Taylor
03-22-06, 04:49 PM
Is this really that big of a deal? Once Sheffield was named in the Balco investigation and then gave the same "I didn't know I was taking them" line it seemed pretty clear that he was taking steroids. We knew about Giambi as well from the leaked grand jury testimony and that has come and gone. Unless Selig goes and suspends all of these guys for some portion of this year it won't effect the team in terms of losing players. Plus, I would imagine that this gives the Yankees a good reason not to pick up Sheffiedl's option, if they had not decided to do so anyway, so this will not be an issue in terms of him after this year

As for Mad Dog taking joy in all this, I guess but for most Yankee fans its not the same as with Bonds. First neither Giambi nor Sheffield have won championships with the Yankees and both have been a part of teams that a lot of fans feel were dissapointing because they did not win championships like the earlier teams. This recent run of Bonds-Giants teams is probably the best run of success the Giants have had in a long while. Not to mention that Sheffield and Giambi are largely mercaneries in the sense that their careers are not syonomous with being Yankeess. Bonds has been with the Giants so long that he is much more of a Giant than a Pirate. I think a good Bonds comparison on the Yankees would have been if say O'Neil was discovered to have been on steroids.

I suppose the only thing Mad Dog can point to is Giambi's 2 home runs in game 7 of 2003 and that you have to take away the Yankee victory and the Aaron Boone homer because of that. But, that moment was largely dulled by the WS loss and the collapse in 2004. All in all IMHO Mad Dog is going to have a hard time finding Yankee fans as bummed out about Sheffield as he is about Bonds.

Yankees1962
03-22-06, 04:54 PM
So Sheffield injected himself in January of 2002, but he didn't play for the Yankees in 2002 or 2003.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 04:59 PM
Good Point.

justinvarnes
03-22-06, 05:04 PM
Sheffield admitted to doing steroids already. whether or not he did them knowingly doesn't change much for me.

His numbers in ATL were tainted, which is how he got this huge contract. That's really my only beef with it.

And to anybody here who thinks that this information is new and actually thought Sheffield was steroid free even thogh he was working out with Bonds, putting up MONSTER #'s in ATL and the Feds found vials of his blood at the BALCO raid...I gotta Bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.... :P

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 05:10 PM
No matter which way you look at, its a tough pill to swallow for us Yankee fans.

YankeeFan1
03-22-06, 05:13 PM
Considering that Sheffield like Giambi and Bonds have lied over and over again about his steroid use, I'm not surprised that he lied to the Grand Jury yet again. There is evidence that Giambi lied to the Grand Jury also based on the information that those same reporters found and chronicled in their articles. These guys are all cheats and liars which why all of you are going after Bonds are going to be slapped in the face with reality when Giambi and Sheffield's get their turn with those investigations, suspensions, and asterisks that you are all so gung ho for when it comes to Bonds.

Yankees1962
03-22-06, 05:15 PM
Considering that Sheffield like Giambi and Bonds have lied over and over again about his steroid use, I'm not surprised that he lied to the Grand Jury yet again. There is evidence that Giambi lied to the Grand Jury also based on the information that those same reporters found and chronicled in their articles. These guys are all cheats and liars which why all of you are going after Bonds are going to be slapped in the face with reality when Giambi and Sheffield's get their turn with those investigations, suspensions, and asterisks that you are all so gung ho for when it comes to Bonds.
Where is there evidence that Giambi lied to the Grand Jury? From the excerpts I've read, Giambi admitted taking steroids to the Grand Jury.

HouseThatRingsBuild
03-22-06, 05:16 PM
The investigations are gonna happen, but I don't think they will have suspensions, and asterisks.

Wade_Taylor
03-22-06, 05:21 PM
Where is there evidence that Giambi lied to the Grand Jury? From the excerpts I've read, Giambi admitted taking steroids to the Grand Jury.

Yeah I thought the whole thing with Giambi was that he did tell the Grand Jury all the details about injecting himself. In fact as I recall a few of the tabloids in New York picked the story up and Mike Lupica I think may have mentioned once in a column :D

YankeeFan1
03-22-06, 05:26 PM
Where is there evidence that Giambi lied to the Grand Jury? From the excerpts I've read, Giambi admitted taking steroids to the Grand Jury. You should go find the series of articles written in the San Francisco Chronicle during the BALCO trial. I refuse to get into any detail with this stuff again. I've been over it again and again with posters who refuse to accept that Giambi and Sheffield were just as guilty as Bonds when it comes to steriod use. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.

NYYBombshell
03-22-06, 05:27 PM
Giambi keeps looking better and better for representing himself the way he did (even if it wasn't optimal)...


Completely agree.

Yankees1962
03-22-06, 05:35 PM
You should go find the series of articles written in the San Francisco Chronicle during the BALCO trial. I refuse to get into any detail with this stuff again. I've been over it again and again with posters who refuse to accept that Giambi and Sheffield were just as guilty as Bonds when it comes to steriod use. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.
According to this latest book, Giambi admitted his steroid use to the Grand Jury so if you don't want to find any evidence to back up your claims that he lied to that same jury than so be it. Also, which Yankee fans have said Giambi wasn't as guilty as Bonds when it comes to steroid use? Furthermore, unless something breaks we don't know about Sheffield has never been accuse of steroid use as a Yankee in 2004 or 2005. As far as his alleged use before then, I can't dispute anything about it because I didn't really follow him back then.

Wade_Taylor
03-22-06, 05:37 PM
You should go find the series of articles written in the San Francisco Chronicle during the BALCO trial. I refuse to get into any detail with this stuff again. I've been over it again and again with posters who refuse to accept that Giambi and Sheffield were just as guilty as Bonds when it comes to steriod use. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.

I compeltly agree with you that they were just as guilty in terms of steroid use and I accept that they did just as many steroids as Bonds, my only thing is that I never saw where Giambi lied to the grand jury, I was under the impression that he told the truth and thats what got him in such hot water. Giambi was crucified in the media when his testimony became public. The one guy has gotten a pass is Sheffield, you are 100% correct on that.

SoCal Pinstriper
03-22-06, 05:39 PM
. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.Except from me. I've never been even remotely outraged by any of it. :D

Outrage is reserved for more important issues.

silverdsl
03-22-06, 06:06 PM
Is this really that big of a deal?Anything to do with performance enhancers being used by players is a big deal. And it's an especially big deal, imo, if Sheffield knowingly injected himself with steroids and HGH regardless of when it was. With The Clear and The Cream, while I am skeptical that he was clueless about what they really contained as he has claimed, it is possible. It's much harder to claim that he didn't know what he was taking when he was injecting himself. Also, since MLB currently has no test for HGH it opens up Sheffield to speculation that he is still using HGH.

CTSoxFan
03-22-06, 06:36 PM
You should go find the series of articles written in the San Francisco Chronicle during the BALCO trial. I refuse to get into any detail with this stuff again. I've been over it again and again with posters who refuse to accept that Giambi and Sheffield were just as guilty as Bonds when it comes to steriod use. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.

I'm not convinced that the selectivity of the outrage has much to do with Yankee homerism, though...I think it has far more to do with the fact that Bonds is an icon of the game, and his name is in the record books in places where perhaps it shouldn't be. Giambi and Sheffield, while certainly stars, aren't even really good Hall of Fame candidates, much less holders of hallowed baseball records, so the outrage gets blasted at Bonds a little harder. (I'll always believe that McGwire got out of baseball at least partially for that reason: he saw the writing on the wall, and got out before he had to face any 55,000-person juries.)

New Murderer's Row
03-22-06, 06:37 PM
i believed his original claim about thinking the cream was a cortisone thing or whatever...unlike a lot of the players who have allegedly juiced, sheffield's numbers have always been pretty consistent. what he did in atlanta he had done before in his career, and he did again in new york

yanksphan
03-22-06, 06:39 PM
You should go find the series of articles written in the San Francisco Chronicle during the BALCO trial. I refuse to get into any detail with this stuff again. I've been over it again and again with posters who refuse to accept that Giambi and Sheffield were just as guilty as Bonds when it comes to steriod use. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.

Interesting. You accuse Giambi of lying to the Grand Jury, then tell other people to go look it up when they question your accusation. How does that work...? :wtf:

BronxByTheBay
03-22-06, 06:42 PM
Okay, he used steroids and he sucks. We know this. At this point, no I don't get what the big deal is. I thought it was universally accepted that Sheffield used 'roids.

I don't like Barry Bonds very much, but I'll say what I've said previous:

When MLB cares about steroid usage, so will I.

SoCal Pinstriper
03-22-06, 06:50 PM
. At this point, no I don't get what the big deal is. I thought it was universally accepted that Sheffield used 'roids.

I don't like Barry Bonds very much, .I never thought that Sheff didn't use roids. I think that at least 50% of major leaguers did.

If a boy scout like Wally Joyner tried them (and by his own admission he did), how can anyone of that era be above suspicion?

I have really tried to embrace Bonds, but, ultimatly, my reasons for disliking Barry Bonds have nothing to do with his alleged steroid use, and everything to do with his personality (or lack thereof).

EDIT: Spelling.

Panamaniac42
03-22-06, 06:56 PM
Not much of a surprise. Even without this steroid crap surrounding Sheffield I've been sick of him.

I wonder how Vlad is doing with his "bad back" and his preference for a "simple lifestyle".

NYYBombshell
03-22-06, 07:03 PM
When MLB cares about steroid usage, so will I.



That's the thing that pisses me off.

DontHateOnNumber2
03-22-06, 07:18 PM
I think this will end just fine, Sheffield I'm sure is more concerned with a contract extension rather than flipping out at the media trying to defend himself. Plus he's never had the gaudy power numbers in such a short period of time like Bonds has. Time will tell how this will pan out.

BobbyWeird
03-22-06, 07:20 PM
The thing I find interesting in all of this is the HGH component. I do not believe that MLB tests for HGH, and guys like Giambi and Sheffield are known to have taken it in the past.

If they took it in the past, and MLB is not testing for it, why wouldn't they keep taking it? Are they still taking it? Does that partly explain Giambi's surge in July last season?

I have no idea what the answers are, and I have no idea why baseball isn't testing for HGH.

And I wonder how widespread the use of it is.....both on the Yanks and other teams.

hardrain
03-22-06, 07:22 PM
Well, this explains the several emails I've received from Red Sox fans in my inbox since about 5 this evening. They're still unopened.

NYYBombshell
03-22-06, 07:25 PM
The thing I find interesting in all of this is the HGH component. I do not believe that MLB tests for HGH, and guys like Giambi and Sheffield are known to have taken it in the past.

If they took it in the past, and MLB is not testing for it, why wouldn't they keep taking it? Are they still taking it? Does that partly explain Giambi's surge in July last season?

I have no idea what the answers are, and I have no idea why baseball isn't testing for HGH.

And I wonder how widespread the use of it is.....both on the Yanks and other teams.



You REALLY think Giambi was using last season?


Oh brother.

the_coach
03-22-06, 07:27 PM
Not sure how this is news...didn't everyone know (or think) this already?

Another thing, why is this book taken as 'gospel'? We all think we know what happened, but why does this book 'prove' it? Is it another sportswriter giving his opinion or his version of things?

Really, not trying to be difficult, but why does this book mean more than anything else that has come out?

/edit spelling

silverdsl
03-22-06, 07:29 PM
The thing I find interesting in all of this is the HGH component. I do not believe that MLB tests for HGH, and guys like Giambi and Sheffield are known to have taken it in the past.

If they took it in the past, and MLB is not testing for it, why wouldn't they keep taking it? Are they still taking it? Does that partly explain Giambi's surge in July last season?

I have no idea what the answers are, and I have no idea why baseball isn't testing for HGH.

And I wonder how widespread the use of it is.....both on the Yanks and other teams.MLB definitely does not test for HGH. My guess is that the use of HGH probably has always been and continues to be widespread on many of the teams. But given Giambi's tumor I would guess that it is highly likely that he is completely clean as far as performance enhancers go because use of HGH and other substances would probably cause the tumor to come back.

As for why this book is more meaningful it's because the authors apparently included quite a big of supporting evidence to prove that what they wrote in the book is legit.

BobbyWeird
03-22-06, 07:37 PM
You REALLY think Giambi was using last season?


Oh brother.

Why wouldn't Giambi (or anyone else who used illegal performance enhancers at any time) continue to use HGH if he thought it would help his game and MLB was not testing for it?

For moral reasons?

Because it's illegal?

Giambi has already shown us that those are not impediments.

Getting caught is a big impediment to steroid use.....but, as we know, baseball doesn't test for HGH.

Silverdsl says that Giambi wouldn't use it because of the tumor....maybe that's true...but I am not doctor, and don't know if HGH would affect the tumor or not.

Rich
03-22-06, 07:41 PM
If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Giambi. He would appear to be the only one who told the truth to the BALCO grand jury.

hardrain
03-22-06, 08:02 PM
If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Giambi. He would appear to be the only one who told the truth to the BALCO grand jury.

Absolutely!

NYYBombshell
03-22-06, 08:02 PM
Why wouldn't Giambi (or anyone else who used illegal performance enhancers at any time) continue to use HGH if he thought it would help his game and MLB was not testing for it?

For moral reasons?

Because it's illegal?

Giambi has already shown us that those are not impediments.

Getting caught is a big impediment to steroid use.....but, as we know, baseball doesn't test for HGH.

Silverdsl says that Giambi wouldn't use it because of the tumor....maybe that's true...but I am not doctor, and don't know if HGH would affect the tumor or not.


Sorry, I think it's ludicrous to think that after all he went through from the fans and how hard he worked to try and prove himself in spite of it, he would EVER go back to using ANTHING regardless of whether or not the league tests for it.

There's no way he's using......none.

Dog Named Fred
03-22-06, 08:03 PM
Seriously - why does anyone care? Steroids, amphetamines, HGH and a host of performance enhancing drugs, some of which we probably haven't heard of, have been a part of baseball for decades. If anyone is really outraged about Sheffield, you need to just throw your arms up in the air and be outraged at MLB for the last 30 years or so. If steroids makes you question Sheffield's accomplishments, given that novody has a clue who used what and when, you need to question absolutely every accomplishment in baseball.

This is the performance enhancing era folks. You can hate it, you can judge every user, abetter and suspected user. You can badmouth every player and coach who did and said absolutely nothing to stop it.

Or, and this is the route I choose, you can accept that none of us have a clue what impact steroids has had on the accomplishments of any player or team, just like we can't quantify the impact of amphetamines, night games, integration, lower pitching mounds, cross country travel, a 162 game schedule, or any other significant development in the history of the game. That realization makes every new steroid relevation that much more irrelevant.

Dog Named Fred
03-22-06, 08:07 PM
Sorry, I think it's ludicrous to think that after all he went through from the fans and how hard he worked to try and prove himself in spite of it, he would EVER go back to using ANTHING regardless of whether or not the league tests for it.

There's no way he's using......none.

What's ludicrous about it?

You know what's ludicrous? Sitting in front of Congress and a national television audience, wagging your finger and saying you've never done steroids, and then going out and doing them a few months later. Rational thought does not always carry the day. Giambi has shown that, chemically speaking, he'll do what it takes to get ahead. But as I said in my previous post, why does anyone care?

stupidpunchline
03-22-06, 08:08 PM
I honestly don't care if or what steroids he used. Just as long as he keeps driving in those big runs.

YankeeFan1
03-22-06, 08:31 PM
Interesting. You accuse Giambi of lying to the Grand Jury, then tell other people to go look it up when they question your accusation. How does that work...? Oh please. Those same reporters accused Giambi of lying in a series of articles in the San Francisco Chronicle. How many times am I supposed to search for those articles and post them. Shouldn't people who claim to expert on what Bonds did or didn't do and are Yankee fans be interested in what the players on their own team do re: steriod use? I was. So I took the time to read the accusations and the reports on the Grand Jury testimony why don't you and others here do the same? It would be really nice, if the people here would actually take the time to read the reports so they would be informed on the topic. I would actually find that interesting and good change.

JeffWeaverFan
03-22-06, 08:35 PM
Look better how? He's never admitted to anything publicly.
Jesus Christ, can you please change your username? How can anyone take anything you say seriously when you spell the freaking name incorrectly? Either way, it's pretty obvious that the reason for that is that he didn't lie to the grand jury, unlike pretty much everyone else it seems.

utopiapkwy
03-22-06, 08:46 PM
MLB definitely does not test for HGH. My guess is that the use of HGH probably has always been and continues to be widespread on many of the teams. But given Giambi's tumor I would guess that it is highly likely that he is completely clean as far as performance enhancers go because use of HGH and other substances would probably cause the tumor to come back.

As for why this book is more meaningful it's because the authors apparently included quite a big of supporting evidence to prove that what they wrote in the book is legit.

There is no test, blood or urine, in any sport that can test for HGH. WADA has not yet found a way to do it. HGH is arguable the most powerful drug out there, as it is basically a fountain of youth. It not only prevents aging, it actually reverses it. Effects include but not limited to drastic improvement in eyesite, effective repair of all soft tissue, accelerated healing of major injuries such as Tommy John or a broken bone. Basically the wear and tear of a season on the body no longer exists, you recover so quickly from everything that you are in better shape every day that you play. It is really amazing. As far as the tumor goes, there isnt a trememdous ammount of research out there, but studies indicate, to make a big generalization, that the steriods are an accelerant for a tumore while HGH should have no effect. Further many people theorize that HGH can help to recover from a tumor, meaning prevent it from comming back. Almost no data on that last part, just alot of theory. So if Jason's doctor/chemist buys into these theories he could easily have been on HGH. After all, pretty much everybody trusts their doctor's advice, right? Whomever Jason's doctor is, he/she is probably one of the few real experts on what the HGH would do as he/she is the only one with a bunch of human test subjects. Really scary stuff.

Rich
03-22-06, 09:00 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/08/12/pound.hgh/index.html

Anti-drugs chief confirms HGH test
Thursday, August 12, 2004 Posted: 1:37 PM EDT (1737 GMT)

ATHENS, Greece -- World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) president Dick Pound said there was nowhere left for drugs cheats to hide after confirming that athletes at the Athens Olympics will be tested for human growth hormone (HGH).

[...]

Brent
03-22-06, 09:33 PM
Not much of a surprise. Even without this steroid crap surrounding Sheffield I've been sick of him.

I wonder how Vlad is doing with his "bad back" and his preference for a "simple lifestyle".


I was in the sign Vlad camp, but sheffield surprised me. I was thinking it would have been nice to sign Vlad earlier when Sheff was whining about his option. Now this, I was sure he had already done steroids by being implicated in the Balco crap, but this still isnt cool.

Vlad sure is looking a whole lot better now isnt he?

kan_t
03-22-06, 09:37 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/08/12/pound.hgh/index.html

Anti-drugs chief confirms HGH test
Thursday, August 12, 2004 Posted: 1:37 PM EDT (1737 GMT)

ATHENS, Greece -- World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) president Dick Pound said there was nowhere left for drugs cheats to hide after confirming that athletes at the Athens Olympics will be tested for human growth hormone (HGH).

[...]
What is Bud Selig doing? Sleeping? :o

Euclis
03-22-06, 09:41 PM
Sheffield cheated? He is in the same boat as Bonds, only Sheffield isn't quite as good.

Nothing new here that most haven't suspected for awhile.

NYJets37
03-22-06, 09:44 PM
mike is going ga ga over the old yankees and cant wait for moose, giambi, and sheff to leave...

:wtf:

Why'd you lump Mussina in there?

Mussina isn't a cheater like the other 2 as far as we know.

Anyway, this isn't a big deal for me just because it's obvious he was on steroids, as he admitted to it, and the idea that a pro athlete would unknowingly take steroids is rediculous.

I don't like it, but their on the team, so I have to support them. I sure don't like them individually though and I'd like to see them both go.

nycgirl
03-22-06, 09:49 PM
Except from me. I've never been even remotely outraged by any of it. :D

Outrage is reserved for more important issues.

Exactly.

Eldee5
03-22-06, 09:56 PM
We've heard that the feds could go after Bonds for perjury. I'd guess that Sheffield could be looking at this possibility also. :(

Rich
03-22-06, 10:20 PM
Sheffield cheated? He is in the same boat as Bonds, only Sheffield isn't quite as good.

Nothing new here that most haven't suspected for awhile.

My guess is it's just the tip of the iceberg, and that Canseco's estimates of steroid and performance enhancing drug use was close to being accurate.

BobbyWeird
03-22-06, 10:28 PM
Sorry, I think it's ludicrous to think that after all he went through from the fans and how hard he worked to try and prove himself in spite of it, he would EVER go back to using ANTHING regardless of whether or not the league tests for it.

There's no way he's using......none.

You can say it with all the force you want, but why wouldn't Giambi or anyone else cheat if they cannot be caught doing it?

The fact is that the only reason not to cheat -- if you are willing to cheat in the first place -- is the risk of getting caught.

With HGH, there is no such risk.

So, if you are Jason Giambi, and you had a washout 2004 and a slow start to 2005, what is stop you from using HGH but your own conscience? Nothing.

Same with every other guy in MLB who has a predilection to use illegal substances. Which means: same with MANY players in MLB.

Speaking of that, it will be very interesting this year to see how the new testing for amphetimenes impacts the game. Several players have said or hinted that the game will be affected, particularly as the season drags along in the late summer.

LuckyLopez
03-22-06, 10:31 PM
Why'd you lump Mussina in there?

Mussina isn't a cheater like the other 2 as far as we know.
I think Mussina's just on Francessa's list of Yankees he dislikes. I'm reasonably sure he regards him as a disappointment as a Yankee and isn't a fan of his personality (which seems like a constant idea in the media). He probably just got swept up into the conversation as somewhere in 2 or 3 hours they were on the subject Francessa just sort of went into a "this isn't the team I'd like" thing.

Not really anything to do with Sheffield or steroids, just something that developed during their conversation and was just sort of tossed out there. I didn't even hear it so I doubt he focused/expanded on it much if at all.

YankeeFan1
03-22-06, 10:38 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/08/12/pound.hgh/index.html

Anti-drugs chief confirms HGH test
Thursday, August 12, 2004 Posted: 1:37 PM EDT (1737 GMT)

ATHENS, Greece -- World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) president Dick Pound said there was nowhere left for drugs cheats to hide after confirming that athletes at the Athens Olympics will be tested for human growth hormone (HGH).

[...] Dick Pound is always full of scare tactics, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no reliable test for HGH.

Rich
03-22-06, 10:39 PM
You can say it with all the force you want, but why wouldn't Giambi or anyone else cheat if they cannot be caught doing it?

The fact is that the only reason not to cheat -- if you are willing to cheat in the first place -- is the risk of getting caught.

With HGH, there is no such risk.

So, if you are Jason Giambi, and you had a washout 2004 and a slow start to 2005, what is stop you from using HGH but your own conscience? Nothing.

Same with every other guy in MLB who has a predilection to use illegal substances. Which means: same with MANY players in MLB.

Speaking of that, it will be very interesting this year to see how the new testing for amphetimenes impacts the game. Several players have said or hinted that the game will be affected, particularly as the season drags along in the late summer.

Why would Giambi tell the truth during his testimony before the BALCO grand jury when no other player who testified apparently did?

Maybe because he has at least a modicum of integrity and conscience.

It's why I think he isn't using HGH now.

Rich
03-22-06, 10:41 PM
Dick Pound is always full of scare tactics, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no reliable test for HGH.

I don't know enough to offer an opinion beyond the link. If you have stats on the reliability I would he interested in looking at them.

yanksphan
03-22-06, 10:43 PM
Oh please. Those same reporters accused Giambi of lying in a series of articles in the San Francisco Chronicle. How many times am I supposed to search for those articles and post them. Shouldn't people who claim to expert on what Bonds did or didn't do and are Yankee fans be interested in what the players on their own team do re: steriod use? I was. So I took the time to read the accusations and the reports on the Grand Jury testimony why don't you and others here do the same? It would be really nice, if the people here would actually take the time to read the reports so they would be informed on the topic. I would actually find that interesting and good change.

Actually, I've read quite a few articles on Giambi and his testimony, including the articles from the SFChron. I've never read anything alluding to what you are accusing Giambi of - perjury.

Rich
03-22-06, 10:51 PM
Actually, I've read quite a few articles on Giambi and his testimony, including the articles from the SFChron. I've never read anything alluding to what you are accusing Giambi of - perjury.

The articles I have read concluded that he didn't expose himself to perjury, unlike the others who testified.

Remember, the players that testified received immunity for the underlying transaction, but not for perjury.

Ghost of Thurman
03-22-06, 10:52 PM
So, if you are Jason Giambi, and you had a washout 2004 and a slow start to 2005, what is stop you from using HGH but your own conscience?

Maybe fear of death? Not sure what effects HGH could have on a guy with Giambi's medical history, but I've got to believe the health risk of those sorts of things are no longer just hypothetical for him.

Euclis
03-22-06, 10:55 PM
Why would Giambi tell the truth during his testimony before the BALCO grand jury when no other player who testified apparently did?

Maybe because he has at least a modicum of integrity and conscience.

It's why I think he isn't using HGH now.

Quite probably.

Another possible reason he told the truth is that he might have been afraid of the possible consequences (i.e. getting charged with perjury) had he lied.

LuckyLopez
03-22-06, 11:29 PM
Or because he had the foresight (or was informed) that something like this might happen down the line. If someone saw that BALCO was just the first chapter of what was going to turn into a very long book there could very easily have looked like something to get out of suffering as the villain at first so that you can disappear in the latter stages. Or maybe even be heralded and commended for your integrity and ability to comeback. Yes, Giambi got hit pretty hard for awhile there but he's also now got a Comeback Award and legions of Yankee fans who think very well of him. And apparently he managed to get a bit of a pass when this first big BALCO expose hit the bookstores. Bonds, Sheffield, Palmeiro, McGwire, and anyone else who might get exposed will not have the same legacies.

I think there's DEFINATELLY a possible motive for Giambi's actions besides sincerity and contrition. I have no idea of his motivations or if he stopped using or continued. I wouldn't presume to make that judgement with no information. But I do think its a bit idealistic to argue that there's no alternative other than his confession was done from pure motives, that his contrition was sincere, and that he's now clean.

Rich
03-22-06, 11:38 PM
LL: I don't think it's a matter of "no alternative," only that he deserves to be credited for his apparent candidness before the grand jury, irrespective of his motives.

____

Sheff denies book allegations of 'roid use (http://tinyurl.com/ews7j)

[...]

When Sheffield -- who reportedly told the BALCO grand jury in December 2003 that he unknowingly used steroids -- was informed of the allegation yesterday, he loudly said, "Great!" after each drug was mentioned. When asked if it is true, he said, "Nope."

The book, which was obtained by Newsday yesterday and will be available in bookstores today, also alleged that Sheffield attempted to maintain a relationship with Bonds' trainer, Greg Anderson, after Sheffield and Bonds had a falling out.

When asked about that, Sheffield said, "Do you believe everything you read?

LuckyLopez
03-23-06, 12:08 AM
Rich, that's certainly fair. I have no problem with giving him his credit when there's no contrary evidence (although I personally feel there's something hollow about commending him essentially for being the best of a bad lot). Its just the hardened stance Yankee fans sometimes take as to his "clear" motivations or present innocence. Like I said, I have zero reason to accuse him of anything otherwise, but it certainly stikes me as a real possability.

NYYWilliams51
03-23-06, 12:37 AM
If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, it's Giambi. He would appear to be the only one who told the truth to the BALCO grand jury.

Giambi did tell the truth, unlike the other two so he does come off better in some regards. However, all the guy did was not commit perjury. There's nothing saintly about that. I guess I give him more of the benefit of the doubt than Sheffield or Bonds, but that's not saying much. There's no honor in knowingly cheating for years, then getting scared and fessing up when the Feds threaten you with a prison jumpsuit.

Rich
03-23-06, 01:41 AM
I don't want to canonize Giambi. I merely think his willingness to cooperate with the BALCO prosecutors makes it less likely that he is doing HGH now, as was suggested above.

BobbyWeird
03-23-06, 05:33 AM
I don't want to canonize Giambi. I merely think his willingness to cooperate with the BALCO prosecutors makes it less likely that he is doing HGH now, as was suggested above.
You might be right.

But I don't think the two follow.

When he told the truth to BALCO prosecutors, he likely knew that they knew what he'd done, and he probably had some fear of consequences if he was caught lying to them. The fact that others lied to them and nothing much happened does not detract from the fact that it is likely that from Giambi's perspective at the time, lying could have carried great risks. And when faced with the authorities, he might just wanted to have come clean with the truth for a variety of reasons.

But with HGH now, there is no chance that there would be detection consequences. No one is asking him tough questions or testing him. The only way that his story could get out would be if someone close to him talked. And even then, HGH is not a banned substance under MLB rules.

So the fact that he was truthful when not being truthful carried a perceived price does not mean he's not cheating when cheating does not carry a percieved price.

Now it's quite possible that he would never use HGH because of health issues.....I just don't know if he would view HGH as something that could reasonably be expected to harm him or exacerabate his prior heath problems. If he did, I agree that it would be pretty unlikely that he'd use HGH -- unless he is a complete idiot, which he does not seem to be.

I just don't think you can draw any inferences in Giambi's favor based on BALCO.

And aside from Giambi, I bet there are still a number of players around baseball using HGH or other substances that are not tested for by MLB.

BobbyMurcerFan
03-23-06, 06:05 AM
Giambi's testimony was by far the most comprehensive, but we have no way of knowing if he told the whole truth or not. Nor do we know if he used some undetectable substances since his testimony or even last year. There simply is no proof either way.

Public denials and his detailed testimony give both those who want to think the worst of Giambi and those who want to think the best ammo for their respective sides.

Personally, since Giambi used before, I wouldn't put it past him to do it again. I'm not saying he did or he didn't. But people can be pretty irrational. Look at Dwight Gooden as a sad example of this fact.

goin for 27
03-23-06, 07:44 AM
Sheffield admitted to doing steroids already. whether or not he did them knowingly doesn't change much for me.

His numbers in ATL were tainted, which is how he got this huge contract. That's really my only beef with it.

And to anybody here who thinks that this information is new and actually thought Sheffield was steroid free even thogh he was working out with Bonds, putting up MONSTER #'s in ATL and the Feds found vials of his blood at the BALCO raid...I gotta Bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.... :P

Speaking of selling the Brooklyn Bridge....

If you think that Sheff only used in 2002, and did not move on to HGH, or something else, my bridge is for sale too.

Far too neat to boil it down to Atlanta only.

YankeeFan1
03-23-06, 08:28 AM
Actually, I've read quite a few articles on Giambi and his testimony, including the articles from the SFChron. I've never read anything alluding to what you are accusing Giambi of - perjury. Well, obviously you didn't read all the pertinent articles. In one of those San Francisco articles that discussed Giambi's Grand Jury testimony, the reporters said that the feds didn't fully believe Giambi's testimony, but thought that he told some of the truth unlike Bonds. I posted all the San Francisco articles at the time in the Around the Horn forum when they came, I remember interest being tepid.

Additionally, based on Canseco's book about when he went back to Oakland and discussed steriod use with Giambi and McGwire, it is clear that the Giambi lied to the Grand Jury about when he started actually using steriods and the extent of what he used.

It is like heads in the sand around here when it comes to Giambi and Sheffield and steroid use. I thought that it was the use of performance enhancing drugs that was so offensive to people here?

silverdsl
03-23-06, 09:28 AM
So I'm wondering - if Selig is going to be investigating Bonds on the basis of the allegations in these books will he having MLB conduct an investigation into Sheffield as well? Because I think that's where things could get really interesting. Sheffield has never been under the microscope to the degree that Bonds and Giambi have been so there's no telling what could turn up.


It is like heads in the sand around here when it comes to Giambi and Sheffield and steroid use.I have to agree but not just as it relates to Giambi and Sheffield. First, it seems as if some believe that if Sheffield only used when he was a Brave it was okay. To me the use of performance enhancers is never okay no matter when they were used. Additionally, part of the way that Sheffield got his big contract with the Yankees was based on his stats with the Braves which now may have been enhanced by steroids. On top of that as I mentioned up-thread since MLB doesn't test at all for HGH if Sheffield once used HGH then it opens him up to speculation that he still uses HGH.

Beyond all of that it seems sometimes that some think that when players put on the pinstripes they become innocent flowers who do no wrong. But the reality is that the Yankees (and every other team in baseball) may have any number of players using HGH currently because MLB doesn't test for it or any kind of designer steroids that are undetectable thus far. And how about greenies - we will never know if players test postive for greenies as long as they only test positive once but they are now banned and I am highly doubtful that no Yankees ever have or ever will take greenies to help them get through the season.

Yankees1962
03-23-06, 09:33 AM
Well, obviously you didn't read all the pertinent articles. In one of those San Francisco articles that discussed Giambi's Grand Jury testimony, the reporters said that the feds didn't fully believe Giambi's testimony, but thought that he told some of the truth unlike Bonds. I posted all the San Francisco articles at the time in the Around the Horn forum when they came, I remember interest being tepid.

Additionally, based on Canseco's book about when he went back to Oakland and discussed steriod use with Giambi and McGwire, it is clear that the Giambi lied to the Grand Jury about when he started actually using steriods and the extent of what he used.

It is like heads in the sand around here when it comes to Giambi and Sheffield and steroid use. I thought that it was the use of performance enhancing drugs that was so offensive to people here?
What I find really offensive is your attitude that only you see the truth about Giambi and Sheffield's involvement in steroids. If anybody is sticking their head in the sand, it's you in regard to other opinions, especially those that are contrary to yours.

yanksphan
03-23-06, 09:40 AM
Well, obviously you didn't read all the pertinent articles. In one of those San Francisco articles that discussed Giambi's Grand Jury testimony, the reporters said that the feds didn't fully believe Giambi's testimony, but thought that he told some of the truth unlike Bonds. I posted all the San Francisco articles at the time in the Around the Horn forum when they came, I remember interest being tepid.

Additionally, based on Canseco's book about when he went back to Oakland and discussed steriod use with Giambi and McGwire, it is clear that the Giambi lied to the Grand Jury about when he started actually using steriods and the extent of what he used.

It is like heads in the sand around here when it comes to Giambi and Sheffield and steroid use. I thought that it was the use of performance enhancing drugs that was so offensive to people here?

How about a link? I just skimmed through 13 articles from http://www.sfgate.com/ archives, and find nothing even close to what you are suggesting.

Let's get one thing straight - I never questioned Giambi or Sheff's use of illegal substances. I questioned YOUR claim that Giambi commited perjury. Something you say is widespread reported, yet you are unwilling to provide a link for.

swityak11
03-23-06, 11:27 AM
This is not a surprise. Did anyone actually believe the "unknowingly used steroids" bit?

He's a cheater.

nydeano
03-23-06, 11:36 AM
The only thing these athletes can be charged with is perjury. If that is the case and they lied, then the GOVERNMENT needs to bring it. To go after Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Seffield, Giambi, based on the the Book of The Month Club is ludicrous. Baseball made a huge error in judgement with their drug policy in the the late 90's., and to go back and place blame on the players is wrong. I don't like the idea that stats were inflated, but there was absolutely NO OUTRAGE when is was going on.

JfromJersey
03-23-06, 12:28 PM
So I'm wondering - if Selig is going to be investigating Bonds on the basis of the allegations in these books will he having MLB conduct an investigation into Sheffield as well? Because I think that's where things could get really interesting. Sheffield has never been under the microscope to the degree that Bonds and Giambi have been so there's no telling what could turn up.


Why just stop with Bonds, Sheffield, and the handfull of players associated with BALCO? It wasn't the only lab producing and distributing steroids, was it? If Selig wants an investigation, then do a thorough one. Find out just how deep and extensive this was, even if it makes dozens of people uncomfortable.

SoCal Pinstriper
03-23-06, 12:30 PM
. There is a lot of selective steriod outrage on this message booard.Although I already replied this yesterday, let me add that I really don't think that there was as much selective outrage over steroid use as there might seem on the surface.

IMO the reason that Giambi was the subject of fan outrage after the Balco testimony leaked while Sheff was exonerated was twofold.

1.) In a classic case of bad timing, Giambi's production and physical well being fell off a cliff as the revelations about his testimony were being leaked. Sheffield's performance has always been very consistant. He endeared himself to Yankee fans by putting up excellent numbers in spite of injury in 2004 while Giambi was falling apart before our eyes.

I think that the majority of the outrage about Jason was due to his performance (or lack thereof) not the fact that he used PEDs. Sheff was spared because he performed.

2.) A secondary component of the outrage about Giambi involved his contract. Yankee fans were facing the prospect of paying a player, who appeared likely to be little more than dead weight on the roster, 71 Million dollars for the 2005-2008 seasons. The franchise crippling reality of the contract was certainly the root cause of at least some of the backlash the Jason endured.

Sheff once again skated because Yankee fans knew that, even if he experienced a Giambiesque physical meltdown, we were only on the hook for 2005 and 2006 at 13Million per. Not a great scenario, but not a knockout punch to the franchise either.

In short, I'm not sure that Giambi would have been treated any differently than Sheffield if he had continued to produce at an acceptable level on the field. The rehabilitation of his image has benefitted greatly from the fact that he has proven that he can be productive again. I doubt that many would bother to point out that he told the truth to the Grand Jury if his 2005 had been as bad as his 2004.

While there are certainly exceptions, I think that most Yankee fans (and for that matter most baseball fans) are far more concerned with player production on the field and how that translates into success for their favorite team than the legal and moral morass of PED use in MLB.

LuckyLopez
03-23-06, 01:06 PM
Ok, but you can't deny that there's been plenty of outrage (especifically against Bonds) in terms of moral and historical reasons. I agree that many fans (Yankee or otherwise) would focus primarily on production and that's why Sheffield seems to have teflon status in NY regardless of what he says or does. But when it gets into the "cheating" and "lying" outrages directed at folks like Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, and others Sheffield gets a remarkable amount of leeway. Just compare this thread to any other steroid thread that didn't involve a Yankee to see the lack of passion and vitriol present.

Giambi got his fair share of attacks a year ago and certainly took his abuse, but at present he's at a place where he's praised by many and often presumed to have a newly cleaned slate. Some people even claim that he's more or less beyond reproach at this stage, whenever anyone suggest that he may have lied to the Grand Jury or may currently be using. He stands to walk away from this very well, despite his wrongdoings.

Maybe these issues are not isolated to Yankee fans. Giambi gets credit outside of NY and Sheffield has more or less flown under the radar completely with this. But it certainly exists on this board that the "revelations" about Sheffield are being treated very differently than those about Bonds. Just as a general reaction of this community (as I'm sure there are many posters who have been consistent on both sides, but someone this thread hasn't gotten filled with nasty words and calls for Bud to ban Sheffield).

SoCal Pinstriper
03-23-06, 01:37 PM
Ok, but you can't deny that there's been plenty of outrage (especifically against Bonds) in terms of moral and historical reasons. I agree that many fans (Yankee or otherwise) would focus primarily on production and that's why Sheffield seems to have teflon status in NY regardless of what he says or does. But when it gets into the "cheating" and "lying" outrages directed at folks like Bonds, Palmeiro, McGwire, Sosa, and others Sheffield gets a remarkable amount of leeway. Just compare this thread to any other steroid thread that didn't involve a Yankee to see the lack of passion and vitriol present. Exactly my point. Sheff skates here because he puts up numbers. If his falloff this year is greater than that which sould be anticipated due to age, he'll lose his pass.



Giambi got his fair share of attacks a year ago and certainly took his abuse, but at present he's at a place where he's praised by many and often presumed to have a newly cleaned slate. Some people even claim that he's more or less beyond reproach at this stage, whenever anyone suggest that he may have lied to the Grand Jury or may currently be using. He stands to walk away from this very well, despite his wrongdoings.
Again, exactly my point. Giambi has rehabilitated his image because he is, once again, performing. If he had played to 2004 levels or been unable to play at all last year, he would be hated by Yankee fans, many of whom would be citing moral outrage over PEDs as the basis of their anger.


Maybe these issues are not isolated to Yankee fans. Giambi gets credit outside of NY and Sheffield has more or less flown under the radar completely with this. But it certainly exists on this board that the "revelations" about Sheffield are being treated very differently than those about Bonds. Just as a general reaction of this community (as I'm sure there are many posters who have been consistent on both sides, but someone this thread hasn't gotten filled with nasty words and calls for Bud to ban Sheffield)
Bonds has lots of PR issues that are completely unrelated to PEDs. If Bonds were on the brink of breaking Aaron and Ruth's records, and we knew for a fact that he had never used PEDs, a sizeable portion of baseball fans would still be rooting against him. He was a very difficult individual to like long before he took PEDs. OTOH, I'm sure that I would have rooted for him if he had found his way into pinstripes. ;)

PeteRFNY
03-23-06, 01:58 PM
This whole thing is awfully similar to what happened in the early-80s in Baseball when cocaine use was out of control. At the time, it was the "stimulant of choice" and baseball kept looking the other way in the name of production and ratings, just like they did (are doing) now.

Anyone remember the coverage EVERY NIGHT on TV at the time? Popular players like Keith Hernandez, Willie Aikens and Vida Blue were being called to testify. Entire teams like the Pirates were being put under the microscope.

It wasn't until PLAYERS spilled the beans on just how bad the cocaine problem was that something was FINALLY done about it and Baseball stopped looking the other way. The same thing is happening now. Canseco may be a waterbug, but it looks like he knew exactly what he was talking about. So now, history repeats itself.

Former commish Fay Vincent once lamented that it took Steve Howe EIGHT violations of the Baseball's drug policy before the Player's Union stopped fighting his suspensions. They are just as guilty as Lack-of-Action-Jackson-Selig at allowing this to spiral out of control.

The ultimate fault though, lies with Bud. As a former used car salesman, he chose a shiny paint job as a selling point over reliability. You can splash all the shiny coats of high-gloss paint you want on a car with a faulty engine…but it’s still going to break down eventually.

The question remains if Bud will ever give in and call triple-A.

LuckyLopez
03-23-06, 02:25 PM
SoCal, you're right on Bonds, of course. Who he is and what he's accomplished (or could) are huge factors into the reaction he gets. He's not a fair comparison. But I guess I just misread you and thought you were disagreeing that our biases are clearly presenting a double standard in our little community. If you think the production factor is the key point I can't disagree. I think that holds true in almost all cases since Yankee fans have shown a willingness to boo anyone if they're not producing. I don't at all disagree that we'd see a different reaction if Sheffield had been a failure that last 2 years.

I guess my only point would be that I don't think we'd have the same reaction for someone in another uniform. If Pudge is revealed as a steroid user in the past I imagine the thread would be much nastier than this has been. And if he were to give a public apology (of sorts) akin to Giambi's and produce this season I doubt he'd be forgiven by the majority of Yankee fans. Tiger fans? Sure.

But hey, you said it yourself. If Bonds had worn pinstripes you would have found a way to cheer for him. So I guess we're pretty much in agreement. My apologies for the confusion.

Rich
03-23-06, 03:53 PM
Well, obviously you didn't read all the pertinent articles. In one of those San Francisco articles that discussed Giambi's Grand Jury testimony, the reporters said that the feds didn't fully believe Giambi's testimony, but thought that he told some of the truth unlike Bonds. I posted all the San Francisco articles at the time in the Around the Horn forum when they came, I remember interest being tepid.

Additionally, based on Canseco's book about when he went back to Oakland and discussed steriod use with Giambi and McGwire, it is clear that the Giambi lied to the Grand Jury about when he started actually using steriods and the extent of what he used.

It is like heads in the sand around here when it comes to Giambi and Sheffield and steroid use. I thought that it was the use of performance enhancing drugs that was so offensive to people here?

If the "feds didn't fully believe Giambi's testimony" they ought to prosecute him for perjury. Given that they haven't, I think it's reasonable to conclude that they did substantially believe him, especially since we know that he was the only player who testified before they BALCO grand jury that he did take PHD.

In all fairness, it is likely those who fail to acknowledge that who have their heads in the sand.

indianyanksfan
03-23-06, 04:00 PM
Why'd you lump Mussina in there?

Mussina isn't a cheater like the other 2 as far as we know.

Anyway, this isn't a big deal for me just because it's obvious he was on steroids, as he admitted to it, and the idea that a pro athlete would unknowingly take steroids is rediculous.

I don't like it, but their on the team, so I have to support them. I sure don't like them individually though and I'd like to see them both go.

i didnt lump moose in...fatcessa did. he was like ever since the big guns like mussina, randy, arod, sheff and giambi have been here we havent won anything and wished they'd all go away.

he wants tino, oneil, charlie hayes, and of course the love of his life pettitte back.

BobbyMurcerFan
03-23-06, 04:35 PM
How about a link? I just skimmed through 13 articles from http://www.sfgate.com/ archives, and find nothing even close to what you are suggesting.

Let's get one thing straight - I never questioned Giambi or Sheff's use of illegal substances. I questioned YOUR claim that Giambi commited perjury. Something you say is widespread reported, yet you are unwilling to provide a link for.And I just looked through four pages of any comment you've made with the word "link" in it. I found nothing like what you mentioned.

NYJets37
03-23-06, 05:24 PM
I think Mussina's just on Francessa's list of Yankees he dislikes. I'm reasonably sure he regards him as a disappointment as a Yankee and isn't a fan of his personality (which seems like a constant idea in the media). He probably just got swept up into the conversation as somewhere in 2 or 3 hours they were on the subject Francessa just sort of went into a "this isn't the team I'd like" thing.

Not really anything to do with Sheffield or steroids, just something that developed during their conversation and was just sort of tossed out there. I didn't even hear it so I doubt he focused/expanded on it much if at all.

Ahh, ok thanks.

I've never got the feeling he doesn't like Mussina, and I've heard him defend him when Dog is criticizing him, but I don't listen that much, so maybe I've missed it.

yanksphan
03-23-06, 05:34 PM
And I just looked through four pages of any comment you've made with the word "link" in it. I found nothing like what you mentioned.

Huh..?

I have no idea what you meant by this post.

PlsDontTearDownY.S.
03-23-06, 05:55 PM
i didnt lump moose in...fatcessa did. he was like ever since the big guns like mussina, randy, arod, sheff and giambi have been here we havent won anything and wished they'd all go away.

he wants tino, oneil, charlie hayes, and of course the love of his life pettitte back.


If you could trade these current Yankees for the 90s Yankees, would you do it? Most of us would, that's probably what Francessa meant. Player for player, these Yankees look so much better (more K's, more homers, more star power) on paper but they haven't had that championship touch as a unit.

Brent
03-23-06, 07:00 PM
Can anyone tell me if HGH was readily available or could people only get it from the Balco labs?

JeterTheCaptain2
03-23-06, 10:08 PM
As a Yankees fan you've got to look at it this way:

Everything that Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield have done before steroid testing in their careers are tainted. As a fan of Giambi, I believe everything he did in Oakland - winning the MVP and getting the monster contract from the Yankees is credited to cheating. The 14th inning walkoff HR and our winning the American League Championship in 2003 too. I feel like because of Giambi's two homers, we don't deserve the ALCS Championship.

Although I feel cheated for rooting for him wheh he first came here and defending him when he came into camp in 2004, I fully support Jason because he handled things the "Yankee way", is a great teammate and is one of the most charitable professional athletes. I admit that I found it hard to root for Giambi in '05 but I've pondered it all offseason and feel that even though Jason Giambi hurt the game of baseball and the Yankees name, if anyone deserves a second chance, he does.

As for Sheffield, I can't say the same. He's been one of the hardest players in Yankees history to root for. I've never cheered him since he's come here because he's had a bad attitude and is always crediting himself for the team's success. He took shots at Jeter and called himself the "true leader of the Yankees" and threw Giambi under the bus by stating "I'm no Jason Giambi" when asked about his suspected steroid use. Sheff called out Steinbrenner last spring and called him a liar in not paying him a bonus that Sheffield must have made up. He dogs it on the basepaths and in the field and plays turns it off/on.

When we first heard the name "BALCO," nobody understood what it was about. I gave Jason the benefit of the doubt because he was a better of the field person than Bonds and Sheffield but at the same time, I was worried what this was about. At the time it was rumored that the BALCO labs gave athletes designer steroids. Not until later, everyone knew what BALCO and Victor Conte was. I remember seeing the 20/20 interview with Conte where he held up a steroid calender. He explained that had the "T" stood for injectable testosterone and "C&C" meant the cream at the clear and "CL" meant clomid or something like that.

The man is a terrible person, disgrace to the sport and one of the worst examples of a Yankee in our history. I'm hoping that he'll be out of the Bronx as soon as possible. I hoped last trade deadline that we would deal him and once again hope that he'll be dealt this year or that his option won't be picked up after this season.

If Cash was incharge in the 2003 offseason, Guerrero would be in pinstripes. Anyone remember the story of Steinbrenner in the meeting acting like a child saying, "I want my guy! I want Sheffield!" Tell me in what way Sheffield is better than Guerrero outside of drawing walks. Without the juice and the drugs, Sheffield would be out of baseball just as quickly as Sosa and as injury-prone as Bernie Williams who will go down the much better ballplayer given Sheffield's cheating.

Guerrero is easily the better player and a just as much a better person. Vlad is considered a gentile down to earth guy and unlike Sheff doesn't annouce to the world that he's playing through pain and didn't use amphetamines to rid of the pain.

Is anyone here with me?

Sam18
03-23-06, 10:19 PM
The 14th inning walkoff HR and our winning the American League Championship in 2003 too. I feel like because of Giambi's two homers, we don't deserve the ALCS Championship.


Clearly Giambi was the only player on roids in those games.

Rich
03-23-06, 10:24 PM
Who are any of us to call someone a "terrible person"?

Are there rape, murder, or child molestation charges that haven't been made public yet?

JeterTheCaptain2
03-23-06, 10:43 PM
Clearly Giambi was the only player on roids in those games.

It is possible that there was someone cheating on the Red Sox and until I here that I'll feel like we didn't deserve that win. I loved that moment and right now (not because of the Red Sox ending the curse) I feel like that ALCS Championship is tarnished.

Sam18
03-23-06, 10:49 PM
It is possible that there was someone cheating on the Red Sox and until I here that I'll feel like we didn't deserve that win. I loved that moment and right now (not because of the Red Sox ending the curse) I feel like that ALCS Championship is tarnished.

It is more than possible that someone on the sox OR Yankees was doing roids at that time.

Rich
03-23-06, 11:36 PM
How can you not like Giambi (http://tinyurl.com/kyqlx):

TAMPA, Fla. -- For Jason Giambi, now it's personal.

The Yankees first baseman lashed out last night at the two authors of "Game of Shadows," the explosive new book focusing on steroids and BALCO, for their assertion that Giambi used performance-enhancing drugs to please his demanding father.

"I just think it's pretty pathetic to try to drag my father into this," said a clearly angry Giambi. " ... It's pretty pathetic. That's the word. I already had handled everything and there really wasn't much to the story after that, so it's pretty sad they'd go that far."

[...]

Giambi believes he put everything behind him for good by admitting that he told the truth to the grand jury -- he reportedly admitted to injecting steroids -- and by apologizing for being a distraction at a Yankee Stadium news conference 13 months ago.

By doing so without specifically admitting to taking steroids, based on the advice of his lawyers, he did not give the Yankees further ammunition to void his contract, which they looked into doing after the report of his grand jury testimony.

"I just did what we felt needed to be done, went forward with it and never really looked back," he said. "Just tried to go forward and get my career back on track.

"Last year I accomplished that and this year I'm going forward, just trying to win a World Series. It's incredible the way the fans reacted. I don't think I could have asked for more. To have their respect and the response they've given me, it's pretty incredible."

NYYBombshell
03-23-06, 11:41 PM
I feel bad for Jason that his father is getting dragged into this malarkey. I really think that Jason has put this behind him and is trying to move forward, but this can only serve to pull him back.

LuckyLopez
03-23-06, 11:45 PM
Ahh, ok thanks.

I've never got the feeling he doesn't like Mussina, and I've heard him defend him when Dog is criticizing him, but I don't listen that much, so maybe I've missed it.
Well, I guess I didn't so much mean that he dislikes him as that he feels disappointed. I've heard Francessa say that he feels Mussina was brought in to be the "ace" to "win the big games" and that he didn't do that (or not as much as he thinks he should have). In that regard I think he thinks him something of a failure, and not worth the price of his contract. Mussina's personality I think factors in too, since he's such a standoffish guy, especially with the media. Even if Francessa doesn't dislike him he probably hasn't endeared himself to him. Russo, on the other hand, I believe dislikes Mussina so that could be where the arguements come in (or just in general attacks on the Yankees that Russo does for fun).

PeteRFNY
03-24-06, 12:02 AM
As for Sheffield, I can't say the same. He's been one of the hardest players in Yankees history to root for. I've never cheered him since he's come here because he's had a bad attitude and is always crediting himself for the team's success.

I agree with this assessment to a degree. I think I'd be more upset with Sheffield if his baloney was more prevelant on the back pages. It's because of this same sort of stuff that I found it impossible to root for Rickey Henderson when he was here. We had a future Hall of Famer, a guy who could steal bases at will and I couldn't stand to look at him most of the time.

He'd totally shift into a lower gear if the team was not competing, and then blame it all on mystery hamstring troubles (I think the Yankees added Rickey's "Hammy" to the roster at one point!). I felt the same way about Jack Clark, I thought he was a total waste of space. And I never did wrap my mind around Roger Clemens despite all that he accomplished while he was here.


"I just think it's pretty pathetic to try to drag my father into this," said a clearly angry Giambi. " ... It's pretty pathetic. That's the word. I already had handled everything and there really wasn't much to the story after that, so it's pretty sad they'd go that far."

This whole business about Giambi's father - and the decision to drag the man into this book - hovers a cloud of credibility over it for me. I had been looking forward to reading the book, but now that I am seeing things like this (which border on hearsay and mind-reading), my belief structure is starting to get a few cracks in it.

I have a hard time accepting that someone would devalue games already played (like the 2003 ALCS) based on what a player may or may not have been doing. In Giambi's case, I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The guy seems to understand that he screwed up (unlike Sheff) and is looking to atone.

Yankee fans gave guys mulligans for doing much worse - Strawberry, Gooden, even Steve Howe - all habitual drug users - were given second, third, fourth chances. At the very least, Giambi deserves the same benefit of the doubt - which can be easly withdrawn should he fail a random drug test.

Pete

utopiapkwy
03-24-06, 07:24 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/08/12/pound.hgh/index.html

Anti-drugs chief confirms HGH test
Thursday, August 12, 2004 Posted: 1:37 PM EDT (1737 GMT)

ATHENS, Greece -- World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) president Dick Pound said there was nowhere left for drugs cheats to hide after confirming that athletes at the Athens Olympics will be tested for human growth hormone (HGH).

[...]


It was an empty threat to scare athletes into being clean at the games. The test does not work.

silverdsl
03-24-06, 08:55 AM
I feel bad for Jason that his father is getting dragged into this malarkey. I really think that Jason has put this behind him and is trying to move forward, but this can only serve to pull him back.Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I could have sworn that some of the local media have discussed the pressure that Giambi feels to live up to his father's and other's expectations and that he has a deep desire to please everyone around him. So I'm not sure how what's in the book is so vastly different than any of that. :dunno:

In addition, while I am a huge fan of Giambi I have trouble feeling sorry for him when he gets angry about this. If he didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of using steroids and have his family brought into it then he shouldn't have used in the first place.

LuckyLopez
03-24-06, 12:17 PM
That's my reaction as well. I have no problem calling Giambi the best of the three men involved in BALCO. I'll give him credit for that. But that's a relative scale. All three are cheaters and liars, none of whom seemed to care in the slightest until they were caught. He's responsible for every hardship he's gone through the last year or so. I may be more sympathatic to him than Bonds or Sheffiled, but that doesn't mean I'm very sympathetic to him at all.

Yankees1962
03-24-06, 12:56 PM
Maybe I'm remembering wrong but I could have sworn that some of the local media have discussed the pressure that Giambi feels to live up to his father's and other's expectations and that he has a deep desire to please everyone around him. So I'm not sure how what's in the book is so vastly different than any of that. :dunno:

In addition, while I am a huge fan of Giambi I have trouble feeling sorry for him when he gets angry about this. If he didn't want to have to deal with the consequences of using steroids and have his family brought into it then he shouldn't have used in the first place.
According to the one of the book's authors, they never said anything in the book about Giambi's father being the cause of him feeling pressure to do steroids. That was in today's Daily News.

The media as usual are acting like sharks because there is a feeding frenzy going on right now because of these books so now we have to wade through the crap on some of the information that's being leaked from these books in the newspapers that might not actually be written in the books.

JeterTheCaptain2
03-24-06, 08:45 PM
I agree with this assessment to a degree. I think I'd be more upset with Sheffield if his baloney was more prevelant on the back pages. It's because of this same sort of stuff that I found it impossible to root for Rickey Henderson when he was here. We had a future Hall of Famer, a guy who could steal bases at will and I couldn't stand to look at him most of the time.

He'd totally shift into a lower gear if the team was not competing, and then blame it all on mystery hamstring troubles (I think the Yankees added Rickey's "Hammy" to the roster at one point!). I felt the same way about Jack Clark, I thought he was a total waste of space. And I never did wrap my mind around Roger Clemens despite all that he accomplished while he was here.

I just hate seeing Sheffield in pinstripes, can't stand the guy. When I was younger, I saw the Atheltics come to town around say '94. Henderson was warming up down the 3B line and two say seven old kids were asking for his autograph. An older fan yelled, "C'mon, won't you sign for a few kids?" Rickey yelled "F*CK OFF and flipped the kids the bird."

"Excellent fellow" that Rickey Henderson.

BobbyMurcerFan
03-24-06, 08:58 PM
Huh..?

I have no idea what you meant by this post.Sorry for the quote :( :-hide-: it was intended for YankeeFan1.

yanksphan
03-25-06, 09:51 AM
Sorry for the quote :( :-hide-: it was intended for YankeeFan1.

I see. :)

SoCal Pinstriper
03-25-06, 12:51 PM
I just hate seeing Sheffield in pinstripes, can't stand the guy. When I was younger, I saw the Atheltics come to town around say '94. Henderson was warming up down the 3B line and two say seven old kids were asking for his autograph. An older fan yelled, "C'mon, won't you sign for a few kids?" Rickey yelled "F*CK OFF and flipped the kids the bird."

"Excellent fellow" that Rickey Henderson.And this story about Rickey Henderson and autographs relates to Gary Sheffield and PEDs how?

JeterTheCaptain2
03-25-06, 10:45 PM
And this story about Rickey Henderson and autographs relates to Gary Sheffield and PEDs how?

PeteRFNY mentioned about how Henderson like Sheffield was impossible to root for. I thought it was a story that people would like to hear because Rickey was such a scumbag.

SoCal Pinstriper
03-26-06, 12:33 AM
PeteRFNY mentioned about how Henderson like Sheffield was impossible to root for. I thought it was a story that people would like to hear because Rickey was such a scumbag.Got it.

nyankegreg
03-26-06, 05:55 PM
For all those interested, I interviewed the two authors of Game of Shadows yesterday on a sports talk radio show I was hosting on WFUV radio. They had some really good stuff to say, you can listen to the archived interview here: http://wfuv.org/

Go to the page for the show "one-on-one" and click on the link for the March 25th show. The interview starts about 25 minutes into the show if you scroll thorugh.

Enjoy

Zimmer's Helmet
04-01-06, 12:06 PM
i believed his original claim about thinking the cream was a cortisone thing or whatever...unlike a lot of the players who have allegedly juiced, sheffield's numbers have always been pretty consistent. what he did in atlanta he had done before in his career, and he did again in new york

What about the injections of HGH into his belly which was clearly chronicled in "Game Of Shadows"?

What did he think those shots were? Was that cortisone too?

They are all liars. Giambi seems to be the only one from MLB who fully co-operated with the investigation.

Zimmer's Helmet
04-01-06, 12:10 PM
According to the one of the book's authors, they never said anything in the book about Giambi's father being the cause of him feeling pressure to do steroids. That was in today's Daily News.

The media as usual are acting like sharks because there is a feeding frenzy going on right now because of these books so now we have to wade through the crap on some of the information that's being leaked from these books in the newspapers that might not actually be written in the books.

Having just finished reading the book, I can confirm that the ONLY mention of Giambi's father in the book was in reference to him being a huge baseball fan and setting up a batting cage in the backyard so that Jason and Jeremy Giambi could take extra practice.

Nothing more than that.

noneckwilliams
04-01-06, 01:24 PM
Speaking of selling the Brooklyn Bridge....

If you think that Sheff only used in 2002, and did not move on to HGH, or something else, my bridge is for sale too.

Far too neat to boil it down to Atlanta only.

The bottom line is what can MLB do to Shef (or Giambi or anyone) in terms of punishment for alleged past behaviour? I know the media types here in Boston are frothing at the mouth about the possibility of a 50 game suspension for a Yankee or two - but how could this possibly be justified?

Also, the steroid hysteria is not a new phenomenon. It's been front and center since at least 2003. Call me naiive but I think a lot of the use has been toned down for at least 2 seasons.