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SubwayFanatic
11-25-05, 01:09 PM
I like Cano and Wang. I think Cano, especially if he develops a bit of plate discipline, could be a pretty damn good player. I also think Wang can be a solid middle-of-the-rotation pitcher.

But I don't view either of these guys as "untouchable."

I've seen quotes from Cashman and some of the fans referring to them as such. Now, it could be that Cashman is just hyping up their value, so if the right deal comes along he will pull the trigger. But do you almost get the sense that he is over-valuing these guys too much and is almost afraid to part with these guys almost under any circumstances?

I am not saying that these two should be traded for peanuts. But you almost get the sense now that if the Cardinals offered Pujols for Cano and Wang that Cashman would reject the deal and some of the fans would be praising him. (Okay, I am obviously exaggerating here).

And this goes beyond Wang and Cano. I have seen people say that Hughes is "untouchable" and there was even (no offense) a thread started yesterday wondering if Chacon was also "untouchable."

It's weird, because the front office and a lot of fans, in years past, it seemed, would be the total opposite -- it seemed like they would consider trading the next Babe Ruth for Preston Wilson.

But now it seems like many have adopted the completely opposite extreme. And I am just wondering, is possibly over-valuing some of the potential trade bait on this team just as bad as having no patience for players and just pawning them off?

DuqueRocks264Evr
11-25-05, 01:17 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".

yanksphan
11-25-05, 01:20 PM
I don't think Cano is overrated. He certainly has the potential to become a star someday.

Wang OTOH is definitely overrated by many. If the right deal came around (a plus CF) I'd ship him off in a heartbeat.

flymick24
11-25-05, 01:22 PM
lowell is owed $18 million... i would have hated for the yankees to take on that payroll. add in the fact that lowell is declining as a player and the yankees would have given up way too much. beckett is good, but pierre, castillo, and the aforementioned lowell would not make the deal fair. wang and cano are much more valuable to this team right now than those marlins cast-offs. and duncan will be a star.

ryanthe13th
11-25-05, 01:22 PM
Cano should not be traded for any reason. His rookie season was outstanding. He has a ton of potential and I'd hate to see it be on another team.

Wang on the other hand, should be considered movable. The deal would have to be something that greatly benefits this team though. It won't happen though, since every team who has tried talking to us about Wang or Cano has attempted to lowball us.

BeantownYankee
11-25-05, 01:23 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".

That would've been a terrible trade. Keep all 4 and try to sign Burnett would be a much better option, then maybe trade Wang for a good Young CF. I'm not saying to do this, just saying it would be a much beeter option then trading two young players that proved they could play in NY as well as our two of our top prospects for a Pitcher who may continue to have injury issues, a over hyped OF, a overpriced 3B whom we don't need and have no place for.

effdamets
11-25-05, 01:26 PM
I'd like for the Yankees to keep Cano... But, if a team comes to them and makes an offer to hard to refuse, you would have to let him go... Something like Cano and Duncan for Manny.... Where is Duncan going to play with A-rod at third... And I know, "who will play 2nd base". We could always sign a guy named Furcal... Look, NONE of this will happen, but, let's face it, Cano and Wang should not be "untouchable"...

swityak11
11-25-05, 01:35 PM
Fans always have a tendency to perceive their own players have a higher worth than they actually do. This seems to especially be the case with Wang and Cano. They're both solid cheap guys with good potential but they aren't elite players by any means.

The only players on this team that should be untouchable if the right deal comes along are the ones that no other team would take because of their salaries.

ring403
11-25-05, 01:36 PM
The bottom line is that the Yankees are at the point where their payroll is uncomfortably close to the tipping point where it turns organizational profit into loss. Their obscene spending over the last decade has put the organization into a position where they have little payroll flexibility left.
Player like Wang and Cano aren't labeled "untouchable" because the organization necessarily thinks they are future Hall of Famers. They are untouchable because they have proven they can contribute at the big league level, and are making the league minimum salary. That makes them more valuable to the Yankees, and their strategy to gradually replace thier aging and overpaid roster with younger, cheaper alternatives who will allow the team to regain some fiscal sanity in the coming years, while still remaining very competitive in the short term.

BeantownYankee
11-25-05, 01:50 PM
The bottom line is that the Yankees are at the point where their payroll is uncomfortably close to the tipping point where it turns organizational profit into loss.

And how do you know this?


Their obscene spending over the last decade has put the organization into a position where they have little payroll flexibility left.
Player like Wang and Cano aren't labeled "untouchable" because the organization necessarily thinks they are future Hall of Famers. They are untouchable because they have proven they can contribute at the big league level, and are making the league minimum salary. That makes them more valuable to the Yankees, and their strategy to gradually replace thier aging and overpaid roster with younger, cheaper alternatives who will allow the team to regain some fiscal sanity in the coming years, while still remaining very competitive in the short term.
If they are that much more valuable to the Yankees why are every team asking for them as a prelude to any trade?

AMYanks
11-25-05, 01:51 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".

That would have been a horrible trade for the Yankees. Lowell is due too much money, and has no role on this team, and Pierre is just awful.

The only way I would give up those prospects, and take on Lowell's salary, is if Cabrera was put in the deal. We all know that the Marlins would never do that, so I would've declined the proposed trade.

Ivoted4Kodos
11-25-05, 01:56 PM
Where is Duncan going to play with A-rod at third...

First base.

rightfielder21
11-25-05, 01:56 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".


The same thing can be said for those who think the above is a good deal...

23and2
11-25-05, 01:56 PM
Imagine Cano and Wang were FAs available on the market today. The only thing they would have going against them would be their limited MLB experience. But given that, how much would they be able to sign for? A young 2B who can hit for average and power to all fields... A young, hard sinker throwing pitcher with poise who could be a #3, and at worse a #4, on any staff? Throw in the fact both players have performed under the pressure and distractions of NY and have some playoff experience to boot. Is it unreasonable to imagine the Yankees willing to pay $7M - $9M a year to each player? They're valuable.

AMYanks
11-25-05, 01:56 PM
First base.

Or RF, where many believe he is best suited.

Ivoted4Kodos
11-25-05, 01:58 PM
Or RF, where many believe he is best suited.

Exactly. If he hits, they'll find a spot for him.

Wang's Groundballs
11-25-05, 02:06 PM
Or RF, where many believe he is best suited.

Many? He has a hitch in his throwing motion, which takes a lot off his throws. If he ends up in the OF it would be in LF. He'll end up at 1B, though.

I'm sure some are overrating Cano, Wang, Hughes, and others. But there just haven't been any deals that have come along that have been worth making. And Wang and Cano are even more valuable than just their performance because they're so cheap right now, so you shouldn't trade either unless it's a no-brainer.

Wang's Groundballs
11-25-05, 02:09 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".

Yeah, who doesn't want to spend $20 million more than is necessary for a slight improvement this year that will cripple us in the future...

swityak11
11-25-05, 02:10 PM
Is it unreasonable to imagine the Yankees willing to pay $7M - $9M a year to each player? They're valuable.To be fair, what the Yankees' FO is willing to pay players is hardly representative of their actual worth on the open market.

And I don't think either player is worth $7-9 million right now with so little experience.

Sam18
11-25-05, 02:12 PM
Let's say we trade Cano or Wang, who's gonna replace their production for next year?

Evil Empire
11-25-05, 02:15 PM
Let's say we trade Cano or Wang, who's gonna replace their production for next year?

Tony Womack and Kevin Brown. Duh.

23and2
11-25-05, 02:15 PM
I think Sam18 put it a better way. Even if you cannot imagine Cano and Wang getting $7-$9M on the FA market, how much do you think it would cost to acquire replacement players who would give you the same production? They're valuable.

NewEraYanks2527
11-25-05, 02:19 PM
If the right deal comes along then NO ONE is untouchable. Of course that right deal may never come. I'd part with Cano and/or Wang in a second if a deal would come along to help the Yankees greatly. Taking on a huge contract for what appears to be a third basemen on the steep decline in order to obtain a young pitcher that has yet to throw 200 innings in a season or another poor defensive power hitter first basemen for a possible #3 pitcher that is cool under pressure and a young second basemen that has a very high upside is not the right deal. Would this thread exist if Josh Beckett not on the Red Sox and Carlos Delgado was not on the Mets? I dont think the Yankees most importantly are overvaluing their prospects but rather using them smartly. If a deal came along that was say and this is very hypothetical Wang and Cano for Hunter and Johan Santana, well then that solves the CF needs and puts a young left handed AMAZINGLY dominant pitcher in the pinstripes. I'm not saying this is the type of deal I expect for Wang but I think Cahsman knows what kind of players he has and what he wants to get for them if they are traded and Josh Beckett and Carlos Delgado was not what he wanted nor should anyone else who can really see the big picture.

23and2
11-25-05, 02:23 PM
To be clear, I'm not saying Cano and Wang are untouchable. Just saying they've got significant value and we shouldn't short change ourselves by treating them like minor league talent or A-list prospects.

ring403
11-25-05, 02:45 PM
And how do you know this?

Because I have read comments by Cashman and others in the organization to that affect. Do a little research, if you're interested.
Do you think Cashman is reducing payroll just for the hell of it, or perhaps out of some nagging guilt about the Yankees payroll advantage over the rest of the league?


If they are that much more valuable to the Yankees why are every team asking for them as a prelude to any trade?
They are valuable to other teams as well because they are major league tested, and there are not exactly alot of other major league ready prospects in the organization. Who else would teams ask for? Some kid in A ball, who might make it to the majors in 5 years?

Bernie Inferno
11-25-05, 03:01 PM
They are valuable to other teams as well because they are major league tested, and there are not exactly alot of other major league ready prospects in the organization. Who else would teams ask for? Some kid in A ball, who might make it to the majors in 5 years?

Not to mention stretch-run and October tested...

Huktonfonix
11-25-05, 03:06 PM
I'd say that Cano and Wang, right now, are slightly above average for their positions with significant potential for improvement. While it's possible that someday Cano will be an all-star 2nd baseman and Wang will be a front-line starter, those who expect it are overrating both players. If a great offer for them does come along, of course they should be traded.

However, there is no way that their production can be replaced at anything close to what they cost now, or will for several years to come. They're nowhere near arbitration even. Name one free agent this year at 2B or a #3 or 4 starter who can put up similar numbers and will cost less than 3-4 million a year. At minimum, anyone who can adequately replace these guys is going to cost at least 10x as much.

Say you trade the two of them for a superstar outfielder. Ignoring the added payroll from whoever we got in the trade, we'd also be shelling out say 12 million over 3 years each to a FA 2B and SP. I figure that at minimum, trading these two costs the Yankees at least 24 million, and that's before luxury tax. That's 24 million I'd much rather see put toward bullpen help than signing a mediocre SP and 2B.

jnewmark
11-25-05, 03:18 PM
This time last year, alot of posters were saying that they would trade anyone, with the possible exception of Mo, if it made the Yankees a better team. You don't hear much of that this year. Even a player at the " A " level is being feircely defended as " untradeable ". ( Hughes ). The fickle face of fandom !

Joe Pepitone
11-25-05, 03:20 PM
Imagine Cano and Wang were FAs available on the market today. The only thing they would have going against them would be their limited MLB experience. But given that, how much would they be able to sign for? A young 2B who can hit for average and power to all fields... A young, hard sinker throwing pitcher with poise who could be a #3, and at worse a #4, on any staff? Throw in the fact both players have performed under the pressure and distractions of NY and have some playoff experience to boot. Is it unreasonable to imagine the Yankees willing to pay $7M - $9M a year to each player? They're valuable. Are you serious?? They each would command under $5mm at this point. Too unproven. $7-9mm?!? That's absurd - and I suppose, ironically proves part of the purpose of this thread in my opinion.

It certainly answers the thread title!

Sam18
11-25-05, 03:22 PM
I'd say that Cano and Wang, right now, are slightly above average for their positions with significant potential for improvement. While it's possible that someday Cano will be an all-star 2nd baseman and Wang will be a front-line starter, those who expect it are overrating both players. If a great offer for them does come along, of course they should be traded.

However, there is no way that their production can be replaced at anything close to what they cost now, or will for several years to come. They're nowhere near arbitration even. Name one free agent this year at 2B or a #3 or 4 starter who can put up similar numbers and will cost less than 3-4 million a year. At minimum, anyone who can adequately replace these guys is going to cost at least 10x as much.

Say you trade the two of them for a superstar outfielder. Ignoring the added payroll from whoever we got in the trade, we'd also be shelling out say 12 million over 3 years each to a FA 2B and SP. I figure that at minimum, trading these two costs the Yankees at least 24 million, and that's before luxury tax. That's 24 million I'd much rather see put toward bullpen help than signing a mediocre SP and 2B.

Yep.

...

23and2
11-25-05, 03:28 PM
Are you serious?? They each would command under $5mm at this point. Too unproven. $7-9mm?!? That's absurd - and I suppose, ironically proves part of the purpose of this thread in my opinion.

It certainly answers the thread title!

Just answer this: If the Yanks were to trade away Wang and Cano, how much would it cost to replace them in today's market (with the current group of FA's available)? That's their worth to the Yankees.

jnewmark
11-25-05, 03:30 PM
Just answer this: If the Yanks were to trade away Wang and Cano, how much would it cost to replace them in today's market (with the current group of FA's available)? That's their worth to the Yankees.

Why does it have to be in terms of Free Agents? If they were to be traded, they would be traded for players already under contract, not free agents.

23and2
11-25-05, 03:32 PM
Why does it have to be in terms of Free Agents? If they were to be traded, they would be traded for players already under contract, not free agents.

We're going to trade away Wang and Cano for a pitcher and 2nd baseman? I thought we were looking for CF and bullpen help.

longtimeyankeefan
11-25-05, 03:58 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".

Beckett made $2.4M last season and is arbitration eligible after a 15-8, 3.38 season - likely looking at $5 to $6M in arbitration

Castillo is due $5M in 2006 with a $5.75M option that vests after 400PA

Lowell is due $18M over the next two seasons

Pierre is due $3.7M in 2006, coming off a .276/.326/.354 season

So, the Yankees take on $30+ million in salary, minimally upgrade their starting staff and 2B, obtain a CF they don't want, get an aging 3Bman with no place to play him and give up their two best young players and two top prospects in return.

Absolutely, this deal is one we could not have passed up.:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

The Comic Book Guy
11-25-05, 04:12 PM
Cano could, probably should, be an all-star 2B sometime in the near future. Wang, at worst, is a terrific long-reliever/spot-starter in the Mendoza mold. At best, I think he could be a Tim Hudson-type ace at the top of the rotation. Pitchers with 95+ heat and a filthy split don't come along every day.

While neither should be untouchable, the Yankees have no reason to shop them. If a proven, long term solution comes along (say, something ridiculous like a Vernon Wells/Orlando Hudson package) gets offered, then sure, you jump all over it. But otherwise, why not give those two a chance to show what they can do in NY with a season under their belts?

BeantownYankee
11-25-05, 05:28 PM
Because I have read comments by Cashman and others in the organization to that affect. Do a little research, if you're interested.
Do you think Cashman is reducing payroll just for the hell of it, or perhaps out of some nagging guilt about the Yankees payroll advantage over the rest of the league?

Actually I'm not that interested. Just wondering when this became a big issue to the Yanks. I thought it was more of a case that they are spending big money with little results and are tired of carrying big contracts that yield little return, but if you comments that state they are concerned with Profits..well then


They are valuable to other teams as well because they are major league tested, and there are not exactly alot of other major league ready prospects in the organization. Who else would teams ask for? Some kid in A ball, who might make it to the majors in 5 years?
If you're saying that they are just a valuable to other teams then how can you say that the Yankees are over valuing there players?

YankeeFan1
11-25-05, 05:55 PM
I consider Cano untouchable, but Wang trade bait. The Yankees can't trade Cano because they have no one else to play 2nd and hit decently. Wang on the other hand has low K rates and shoulder problems so if I was the Yankees, I would consider trading him for the right offer which might include a good centerfielder or 2 solid relievers.

ieddyi
11-25-05, 05:57 PM
Soriano was deemed untouchable also and we held on to him and ended up using him to get ARod

The FO is doing it the right way in not giving away valuable pieces. Cano has shown he can play well in NY- and the playoffs. His defense is already much better than Soriano and he has shown willingness to adapy at the plate- going to left field- trying to take more pitches.
It is possible to learn palte discipline- Arod early in his career didn't take many walks and he has adapted. I read a study that had a long list of players who did increase their walk rate later in their careers.
The only knock against Wang is injury and the low K rate. For anybody who watches him pitch, w/ his extreme gd/fb ratio, it's not really a concern for me.
The mArlin deal would be great except for the addition of Lowells albatross salary. The sawx have an opening at 3b/1b. For us to do that dea; and give up 2 promising players for 1 good picher w/ question marks would ahve been squandering talent

lighthazard
11-25-05, 06:20 PM
Unless we're blown away by a deal I think we should keep them.

ring403
11-25-05, 06:36 PM
If you're saying that they are just a valuable to other teams then how can you say that the Yankees are over valuing there players?The Yankees can no longer afford to address all of their personnel needs through the FA market. They have to begin to rebuild through their farm system in order to assure their continued success. That is why they are declining any trade proposals which include their best young talent. Guys like Cano and Wang, who are able to contribute at the major league level immediately are scarce in the system, and that's why they continue to say no to every team that asks. The Yankees can't afford NOT to hang onto them.

gold23
11-25-05, 06:48 PM
Cano and Wang are not overrated. Both players are guys who played extremely well in their first full seasons as major league players, after being highly regarded (cano) and well regarded (Wang) by the FO before reaching the bigs.

They have value well above that of a premiere prospect in that they've proven they are capable of achieving sucess at the highest level, as opposed to having the potential to do so. Is it too early to determine whether they are flash in the pans or emerging stars? Of course it is. But they completed their first steps on the way to proving the latter, which is the most difficult to do.

If Wang had not had rotator cuff issues, I'd be much less inclined to even consider a trade involving him. His K rate would concern me if he didn't have excellent stuff. I feel that since he throws so many strikes with that mid-90's sinker, he gets a lot of early count groundball outs. When he is sharp, the batters simply top the ball to an infielder. Reminds me very much of a young Scott Erickson, who was a fabulous pitcher for a few years.

Cano? Ball simply jumps off his bat, and he has a knack for adjusting fairly quickly to a different style approach. He doesn't reach base that well, which should slightly improve. But if he hits close to .300 with pop (and he should be a 20+ guy pretty quickly), he could be a very effective offensive player in the 6th type spot in the order.

I would deal either or both if the perfect deal came along, but what would that be? Any CF that is available is not good enough for either- to trade one of these guys you'd have to significantly improve a spot with a player who simply is not a stopgap or a shot in the dark.

So, no, I do not think the Yankees are overvaluing either of these players. Two young, inexpensive players who have performed very well during a pressure-packed season.

27IsNext
11-25-05, 06:51 PM
most definitely they have, risking a verbal lashing, I believe that Cano and Wang are both way overrated.

personally, there was a supposed deal that would have sent Wang, Cano, Hughes, Duncan to Florida for Beckett, Pierre, Castillo, Lowell, if that deal was real, I hate it that they didn't go for it.

but it's quite obvious that the FO and the fan base have gone way nuts about hording our "prospects".

The above would have been an absolutely horrible deal. Just horrible. Beckett is injury-prone. Lowell is expensive, and a huge question mark--will he revert to the Lowell of old, or continue to decline? Castillo is good, but over 30, and has a $4/year salary as opposed to Cano's league minimum. And defensively, Castillo is inconsistant from year to year. His career RATE2 is 98, his 2005 FRAR 27--both below average. His UZR from 2000-2003 is -1, but his 2004 UZR was +4 (I think). Pierre is overrated, sucks defensively, and will continue to decline.

I'm glad we didn't accept that awful deal.

Joe Pepitone
11-25-05, 08:42 PM
I consider Cano untouchable, but Wang trade bait. The Yankees can't trade Cano because they have no one else to play 2nd and hit decently. Wang on the other hand has low K rates and shoulder problems so if I was the Yankees, I would consider trading him for the right offer which might include a good centerfielder or 2 solid relievers. So, there are no other 2B in the league, and no other guys that can hit .297 with an OPS of .778? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds, and how it validates the pretense of this thread?

AMYanks
11-25-05, 08:46 PM
So, there are no other 2B in the league, and no other guys that can hit .297 with an OPS of .778? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds, and how it validates the pretense of this thread?

How many second-basemen have put up his numbers, are 23, and making less than $1M?

gold23
11-25-05, 08:52 PM
How many second-basemen have put up his numbers, are 23, and making less than $1M?


And come with potential to improve upon those numbers. This is pretty much the point- it's not that the production is necessarily irreplaceable- with the exception of A-Rod and Mo, there are players in the league that could replace just about any Yankee.

It is the cost per production, and ability to perform for many more years at their respective ages, that really enhance their value. If Cano put up those numbers as a 29-year old veteran, he'd be considered a 2B with some pop that is a decent enough producer. But he's a baby with potential and a ludicrously low cost for his production in NY.

23and2
11-25-05, 08:56 PM
So, there are no other 2B in the league, and no other guys that can hit .297 with an OPS of .778? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds, and how it validates the pretense of this thread?

Joe, all I asked you was how much would such a guy cost. That's all. How much?

YankeeFan1
11-25-05, 09:03 PM
So, there are no other 2B in the league, and no other guys that can hit .297 with an OPS of .778? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds, and how it validates the pretense of this thread? So let me get this straight, the Yankees have a cheap young solid 2nd baseman and no one else on the team to fill his position adequately so they should trade him and then proceed to sign and/or trade for a more expensive player who may or may not be as good Cano. If my opinion based on the facts as they stand sound ridiculous, then your comment is simply beyond stupid.

Zzyzx
11-26-05, 11:35 AM
The reason Yankees fans overvalue their prospects, is largely (IMO) that they haven't really seen any bad ones lately. There was the slew of Posada, Jeter, Williams, Rivera, and then pretty much everyone else got traded away before they could bust. Fans of teams that keep their prospects are more jaded about the process. Sometimes they develop, sometimes they don't and no one knows why really.

Bernie Inferno
11-26-05, 12:30 PM
It seems people have forgotten the fact that you are not a true Yankee unless you make more than $10 million per year... :P

Joe Pepitone
11-26-05, 01:34 PM
So let me get this straight, the Yankees have a cheap young solid 2nd baseman and no one else on the team to fill his position adequately so they should trade him and then proceed to sign and/or trade for a more expensive player who may or may not be as good Cano. If my opinion based on the facts as they stand sound ridiculous, then your comment is simply beyond stupid. I never said they should trade them. Try reading comprehension. What I did say was that your "untouchable" comment was absurd. For the right deal, Cano should hardly be untouchable.



Joe, all I asked you was how much would such a guy cost. That's all. How much?
Not sure... but not $7-9mm, that's for sure. How about I do this for you... I'll break out some numbers, and you tell me if you STILL think Cano is worth $7-9mm (let me start you off with a hint: No 2B makes more than $8mm...): Following table SORTED BY 2005 WIN SHARES FOR SECOND BASEMEN:

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 425pt; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=566 border=0 x:str><COLGROUP><COL style="WIDTH: 16pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 768" width=21><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 12pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 585" width=16><COL style="WIDTH: 60pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2925" width=80><COL style="WIDTH: 26pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 1243" width=34><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64><COL style="WIDTH: 56pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2742" width=75><COL style="WIDTH: 47pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 2304" width=63><COL style="WIDTH: 64pt; mso-width-source: userset; mso-width-alt: 3108" width=85><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=21 height=17></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=16></TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=80></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=34></TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64></TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=64>OPS</TD><TD class=xl24 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=75>Win Shares</TD><TD class=xl27 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 47pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=63>Age</TD><TD class=xl28 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 64pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=85>Salary ($mm)</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>1</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>J</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Kent</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>LAN</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.88900000000000001">0.889</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>30</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1968">37</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="7.35">$7.350</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>2</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>B</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Roberts</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>BAL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.90300000000000002">0.903</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>28</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1977">28</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.39">$0.390</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>3</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>C</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Utley</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>PHI</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.91500000000000004">0.915</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>27</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1978">27</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.34499999999999997">$0.345</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>4</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>M</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Giles</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>ATL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.82599999999999996">0.826</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1978">27</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.35">$2.350</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>5</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>M</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Ellis</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>OAK</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.86099999999999999">0.861</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>21</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1977">28</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.4">$0.400</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>6</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>C</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Counsell</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>ARI</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.72599999999999998">0.726</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>21</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1970">35</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="1.35">$1.350</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>7</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>C</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Biggio</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>HOU</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.79200000000000004">0.792</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>19</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1965">40</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="3">$3.000</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>8</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>J</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Cantu</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>TB</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.80800000000000005">0.808</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1982">23</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.31690000000000002">$0.317</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>M</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Grudzielan</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>STL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.72399999999999998">0.724</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1970">35</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="1">$1.000</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>10</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>A</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Kennedy</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>LAA</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.76500000000000001">0.765</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1976">29</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="3">$3.000</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>11</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>L</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Castillo</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>FLA</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.76500000000000001">0.765</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>30</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="5.1666999999999996">$5.167</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>T</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Iguchi</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>CHA</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl31 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num>0.780</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1974">31</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.3">$2.300</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>13</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>R</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Belliard</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>CLE</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.77400000000000002">0.774</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>30</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.5">$2.500</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>A</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Soriano</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>TEX</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.82099999999999995">0.821</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1978">27</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="7.5">$7.500</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>R</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Aurilia</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>CIN</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.78200000000000003">0.782</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1971">34</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.6">$0.600</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>16</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>O</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Hudson</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>TOR</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.72799999999999998">0.728</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1977">28</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.36499999999999999">$0.365</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>17</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>R</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Durham</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>SF</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.78500000000000003">0.785</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1971">34</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="7.2">$7.200</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>18</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>M</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Loretta</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>SD</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.70699999999999996">0.707</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1971">34</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.75">$2.750</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>19</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>P</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Polanco</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>DET</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.82099999999999995">0.821</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>15</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>30</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="4.6">$4.600</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>20</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>T</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Walker</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>CHN</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.82899999999999996">0.829</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>14</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>32</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="2.5">$2.500</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>21</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>R</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Freel</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>CIN</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.74299999999999999">0.743</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>29</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.40500000000000003">$0.405</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>22</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>AL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>R</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Cano</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>NYA</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.77800000000000002">0.778</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>12</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1982">23</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.316">$0.316</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>23</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>J</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Vidro</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>WAS</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.76300000000000001">0.763</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>11</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1974">31</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="7">$7.000</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>24</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>R</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Weeks</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>MIL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.72699999999999998">0.727</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>10</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num>23</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.316">$0.316</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt" height=17><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 16pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=21 height=17 x:num>25</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>NL</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 12pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=16>J</TD><TD class=xl25 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 60pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=80>Castillo</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 26pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=34>PIT</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64>2B</TD><TD class=xl30 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 48pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=64 x:num="0.72399999999999998">0.724</TD><TD class=xl23 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; WIDTH: 56pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: white" width=75 x:num>9</TD><TD class=xl26 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num x:fmla="=2005-1981">24</TD><TD class=xl29 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-TOP: #ebe9ed; BORDER-LEFT: #ebe9ed; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ebe9ed; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" x:num="0.32700000000000001">$0.327







</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Next, let's look at fielding... of the 17 players that qualify at 2B (i.e. started more than 100 games), Cano is 16th out of 17 in fielding percentage, 8th out of 17 in range factor, and 12th out of 17 in Zone Rating.

O.k... should we continue? Let's look at speed. Cano is tied for dead last among starting 2B in 2005 in stolen bases (tied with Mark Ellis, Jorge Cantu and the speedy Todd Walker) with 1 SB.

Listen... I like Cano. I think he has a nice career ahead of him. But, if anyone cares to refute the clear numbers I have laid out, I am all ears. To put him in the upper echelon of players at this point (even when discussing his potential) is absurd.

He is worth about $3mm-$4mm tops on the open market - and that is simply based on potential and age. His value based on everything I have laid out above is less on its face value.

JeffWeaverFan
11-26-05, 02:36 PM
It comes down to this. Instead of paying $5 million a year for Cano's production and $7 millino a year for Wang's, we are paying hardly anything. So, we can use that $12 million per year in other places.

For any team to continuously succeed they have to get young and cheap players that produce. If you don't, you can still succeed if your payroll starts to get way too high. The Yankees do have a limit in the payroll and we saw that last year when we didn't get Beltran although he filled a huge need in CF.

Had the Yankees realized that we could have put Cano and Wang on the team and not spent $12 million on Womack and Pavano (or $9 million on Womack and Wright - Wright might be the better comparison here), we would have had the money to get Carlos Beltran.

Euclis
11-26-05, 04:30 PM
It comes down to this. Instead of paying $5 million a year for Cano's production and $7 millino a year for Wang's, we are paying hardly anything. So, we can use that $12 million per year in other places.


Cheap talent is all well and good, but if you think that Cano and Wang's 2005 were worth 5 and 7 million each, then you seriously overestimate their value.

YankeeFan1
11-26-05, 10:54 PM
I never said they should trade them. Try reading comprehension. What I did say was that your "untouchable" comment was absurd. For the right deal, Cano should hardly be untouchable. Oh please, this comment just reinforces my point about the stupidity of your response to me.

gold23
11-26-05, 10:56 PM
Cheap talent is all well and good, but if you think that Cano and Wang's 2005 were worth 5 and 7 million each, then you seriously overestimate their value.


I will say that if Wang and Cano replicate their exact production levels over the next five years, they would get around thos figures as free agents. Just look at what guys are/have been getting.

Euclis
11-26-05, 11:34 PM
I will say that if Wang and Cano replicate their exact production levels over the next five years, they would get around thos figures as free agents. Just look at what guys are/have been getting.

Well, they haven't replicated their exact production levels for 5 years, they done it for one. (or in Wang's case, for about half a season). It's pretty moot what they would be making if they kept up this production for half a decade, since neither of them were on the radar in April. But just for fun:

Cano's line (.297/.320/.458, 14 home runs) is remarkably similar to another 2B, Ronnie Belliard (.284/.325/.450, 17 home runs). Belliard is 30 years old, and has put up similar numbers for about 7 years now (career line of .272/.341/.412). He made 2.5M in 2005, and his career earnings as of right now are about 6.5M. So no, Cano's production is not worth 5M a year, it is worth, at most, half that.

Wang is a tougher case, but he has put together 116.1 innings of solid starting pitching. He got hurt and missed significant time (I believe that happened to him in the minors as well, not certain). He has an amazingly low k/9 and a pretty bad k/bb, which doesn't exactly indicate future success (though in all fairness, he had much better peripherals in the minors, and those could eventually come out). I strongly disagree that Wang's production was worth 7M last year. He has no track record, and that kind of production is worth much less than 7M. Wang's vorp in 2005 was 17.3, behind such starters as Rick Helling, Victor Zambrano, Matt Morris, and Scott Elarton. Were he to replicate that exact production for 5 years, he would be lucky to get 3-4M (as well as being very injury prone).

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-26-05, 11:41 PM
Wang is a groundball pitcher, greal K/9 and K/bb aren't to be expected...

Euclis
11-26-05, 11:52 PM
Wang is a groundball pitcher, greal K/9 and K/bb aren't to be expected...

They aren't expected to be great, but Wang's rates are really awful.
Wang: 3.64 k/9, 1.47 k/bb

Check that out compared to 2005 top 10 groundball pitchers:
Brandon Webb: 6.76, 2.92
Jake Westbrook: 5.08, 2.13
Derek Lowe: 5.92, 2.66
Mark Mulder: 4.87, 1.59
Tim Hudson: 5.39, 1.77
AJ Burnett: 8.53, 2.51
Jamey Wright: 5.31, 1.25
Chris Carpenter: 7.93, 4.18
Greg Maddux: 5.44, 3.78
Cory Lidle: 5.90, 3.03

Every pitcher got at least 1 more k/9, and only Wright had a worse k/bb (and he is very bad pitcher). Only Hudson and Mulder were within .5 k/bb, and they both did signficantly worse than past years. Wang, had he qualified, would have had the 3rd best gb/fb ratio in baseball, but that doesn't explain his low k/9 and low k/bb, not by a long shot.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:08 AM
K-Rates are extremely overrated. It was his rookie year, his K-Rates will probably increase...

AMYanks
11-27-05, 12:10 AM
They aren't expected to be great, but Wang's rates are really awful.
Wang: 3.64 k/9, 1.47 k/bb

Check that out compared to 2005 top 10 groundball pitchers:
Brandon Webb: 6.76, 2.92
Jake Westbrook: 5.08, 2.13
Derek Lowe: 5.92, 2.66
Mark Mulder: 4.87, 1.59
Tim Hudson: 5.39, 1.77
AJ Burnett: 8.53, 2.51
Jamey Wright: 5.31, 1.25
Chris Carpenter: 7.93, 4.18
Greg Maddux: 5.44, 3.78
Cory Lidle: 5.90, 3.03

Every pitcher got at least 1 more k/9, and only Wright had a worse k/bb (and he is very bad pitcher). Only Hudson and Mulder were within .5 k/bb, and they both did signficantly worse than past years. Wang, had he qualified, would have had the 3rd best gb/fb ratio in baseball, but that doesn't explain his low k/9 and low k/bb, not by a long shot.

I expect a large increase in his K/9 and K/BB. I know you can't really put much stock into minor league numbers, but he did post a 7.05 K/9 in the minors. At the least, he should approach 6.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 12:15 AM
K-Rates are extremely overrated. It was his rookie year, his K-Rates will probably increase...

I don't think they're really overrated. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad pitcher with a very good K/9 (I'm talking over 8). Of the top 10, Schmidt was really the only one who didn't have a good year. But the year before, he was tremendous.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:24 AM
I don't think they're really overrated. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad pitcher with a very good K/9 (I'm talking over 8). Of the top 10, Schmidt was really the only one who didn't have a good year. But the year before, he was tremendous.

Yes, but there are still pitchers with high K/9 rates that aren't good. Around 7 and 8. What I am saying is a high k/9 rate isn't necessary to be a good pitcher. When people talk about the decline of k/9 in a pitchers career they immediately think the production of a pitcher declines at the same rate. It's simply not true...

Euclis
11-27-05, 12:25 AM
K-rates aren't overrated; it would be pretty difficult, if not impossible, to find a pitcher who has had many successful years with rates as low as Wang's. If they don't improve (they probably will, judging by his minor league numbers), Wang won't be a good pitcher. If he did, he would literally be one of a kind. The only two starters who put up worse k/9 rates than wang last year were Horacio Ramirez and Carlos Silva. Ramirez isn't any good, even in Atlanta. Silva had a good year, but he has pinpoint control; he walked 9 batters in 188.1 IP, for a k/bb of 7.89. Wang does not possess anywhere near that kind of control. The only pitchers who put up worse k/bb rates than Wang last year were Victor Zambrano, Jason Marquis, Kip Wells, Jose Lima, Jamey Wright, and Ramirez. These guys are inconsistent at best, and all (except for Ramirez) strike out more guys than Wang.

Wang's success in limited innings last year is not sustainable if his peripherals don't improve.




Yes, but there are still pitchers with high K/9 rates that aren't good. Around 7 and 8. What I am saying is a high k/9 rate isn't necessary to be a good pitcher. When people talk about the decline of k/9 in a pitchers career they immediately think the production of a pitcher declines at the same rate. It's simply not true...


True, pitchers do not NEED a great k/9 rate to be good, but a low k/9 rate means inconsistency at best, due to balls always being in play. Check out the top 10 k/9 guys:

Mark Prior
Jake Peavy
Johan Santana
Brett Myers
Jason Schmidt
Pedro Martinez
John Lackey
AJ Burnett
Scott Kazmir
Randy Johnson

Other starts with a k/9 above 7 are Doug Davis, John Patterson, Josh Beckett, Carlos Zambrano, Javier Vazquez, Chris Carpenter, Roger Clemens, Noah Lowry, Chris Young, CC Sabathia, Chris Capuano, Esteban Loaiza, Mike Mussina, Casey Fossum. A few duds, but mostly good pitchers. Consequently, there aren't too many aces with a k/9 under 6. Everyone likes to point out that Maddux didn't need to strike out too many guys to be great, but when he was winning cy youngs, his k/9 was always between 6.5 and 8.
There certainly is a correlation between k/9 and Major league success.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:31 AM
Yes, I agree. Wang still had an ERA+ of 111 so he was above league average. I'd look for his K totals to increase from last year, as you stated his minor league numbers would indicate this. His 3.64 K/9 was very low, and I just can't see it sitting there. I believe it to be an abberation. Considering he can dial it up to like 98, he's not going to have a problem striking people out in the majors.

yankees76
11-27-05, 12:35 AM
Without getting into how a 25-year-old Wang projects as a pitcher, and acknowledging that his K/9 is low and that you are betting on the infield defense with the amount of groundballs he give up ... he has pitched reasonably well in NY, better than pitchers with better "stuff," like Vazquez and Weaver. I say keep him because he is adequate, keeps the team in the game, and seems oblivious to the "pressure" of pitching in New York. You need a No. 4 and No. 5 starter, and he has done the job.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 12:37 AM
Yes, but there are still pitchers with high K/9 rates that aren't good. Around 7 and 8. What I am saying is a high k/9 rate isn't necessary to be a good pitcher. When people talk about the decline of k/9 in a pitchers career they immediately think the production of a pitcher declines at the same rate. It's simply not true...

There aren't many great pitchers with a poor K/9 rate. Sure, you can find some, but the majority of good/great pitchers have good rates.

I'm not saying this is the best way to judge a pitcher, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the majority of good pitchers tend to have good K rates, while the majority of bad pitchers tend to have bad rates. Thus, I don't consider it an overrated statistic.

But, like I said, there are exceptions. If a pitcher is in decline, it is common for their K/9 to decline. But it is not always the case, and you can't use only this statistic to determine the future of a pitcher.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:42 AM
Other starts with a k/9 above 7 are Doug Davis, John Patterson, Josh Beckett, Carlos Zambrano, Javier Vazquez, Chris Carpenter, Roger Clemens, Noah Lowry, Chris Young, CC Sabathia, Chris Capuano, Esteban Loaiza, Mike Mussina, Casey Fossum. A few duds, but mostly good pitchers. Consequently, there aren't too many aces with a k/9 under 6. Everyone likes to point out that Maddux didn't need to strike out too many guys to be great, but when he was winning cy youngs, his k/9 was always between 6.5 and 8.
There certainly is a correlation between k/9 and Major league success.

Mussina's ERA+ was 101
Vazquez ERA+ was 99
Davis ERA+ was 110
Chris Young ERA+ was 105
Loaiza ERA+ was 105
Fossum ERA+ was 88
Capauno ERA+ was 106
Sabathia ERA+ was 102
Lowry ERA+ was 110

Wang was better than all of them...

AMYanks
11-27-05, 12:45 AM
Mussina's ERA+ was 101
Vazquez ERA+ was 99
Davis ERA+ was 110
Chris Young ERA+ was 105
Loaiza ERA+ was 105
Fossum ERA+ was 88
Capauno ERA+ was 106
Sabathia ERA+ was 102
Lowry ERA+ was 110

Wang was better than all of them...

There are a few examples of poor K/9 guys who had good seasons (Wang, Washburn, Garland, Byrd, Rogers), but there are far more on the other end who had good seasons, and good K/9 rates (Prior, Peavy, Santana, Myers, P. Martinez, Lackey, Burnett, R. Johnson, Patterson, Beckett, C. Zambrano, Carpenter, Clemens, etc.).

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:48 AM
There aren't many great pitchers with a poor K/9 rate. Sure, you can find some, but the majority of good/great pitchers have good rates.

I'm not saying this is the best way to judge a pitcher, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the majority of good pitchers tend to have good K rates, while the majority of bad pitchers tend to have bad rates. Thus, I don't consider it an overrated statistic.

I'm not saying that great pitchers often don't have great K/9 rates but what I am saying is it isn't necessary to be in the top 10 or top 20 even and not be a great pitcher. It is an overrated statistic when people attempt to correlate a slump in K/9 as an immediate reason why a pitcher isn't doing well.



But, like I said, there are exceptions. If a pitcher is in decline, it is common for their K/9 to decline. But it is not always the case, and you can't use only this statistic to determine the future of a pitcher.

I agree...

DZal
11-27-05, 12:48 AM
K rates are not overrated. If anything, they are underrated as a peripheral predictive statistic of a pitcher's preformance. They are the only positive outcome of a PA that the pitcher has independant control over. Any other outcome (other than BB, HBP, HR) is contingent on the defense. And as so many SABR studies have shown, with few exceptions, pitchers can not control the outcome of batting average on balls in play. Yes, a high gb ratio will lend itself to a lower BABIP, but that only goes so far.

Wang had an unbelievably low BABIP during his run of success last year. Factor in the below average Yankee defense, and the underwhelming-ness of other periph stats (high BB rate, low HR rate which also tends to regress) and it looks a lot like the cherished Mr. Wang's (small sample of) success last year was rather fluky.

The point being that posters who claim "we'd need to get far more than Ichiro for Wang and Cano" are living in some sort of deluded fantasy world. Most of these proposed Wang/Cano aren't providing nearly enough for the proposed non-Yankee team, and posters are claiming that the yankees would be getting ripped off. This is lunacy.

Absolutely Wang and Cano are being overvalued. However, all that being said if they provide cheap production, they may be more valuable to the Yankees than to another team.

bagger015
11-27-05, 12:49 AM
The Yankees can no longer afford to address all of their personnel needs through the FA market. They have to begin to rebuild through their farm system in order to assure their continued success.

I've been saying this for the last 3 years. The Boss did not learn his lessons throughout the '80s. I really hope I don't have to wait another 5-10 years for another championship............:(

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-27-05, 12:49 AM
There are a few examples of poor K/9 guys who had good seasons (Wang, Washburn, Garland, Byrd, Rogers), but there are far more on the other end who had good seasons, and good K/9 rates (Prior, Peavy, Santana, Myers, P. Martinez, Lackey, Burnett, R. Johnson, Patterson, Beckett, C. Zambrano, Carpenter, Clemens, etc.).

I know that, but what I am saying is Wang was one of them. I really don't know what I am arguing anymore to be honest, I think we have the same ideas...

yankees76
11-27-05, 12:54 AM
Btw, Wang is not "in decline." He is 25. He might or might not be very good, but it is silly to talk about him being in decline.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 12:58 AM
Btw, Wang is not "in decline." He is 25. He might or might not be very good, but it is silly to talk about him being in decline.

No one said it was Wang who is in decline. The point was brought up that most older pitchers see a decrease in their K/9 rate as they get older.

JeffWeaverFan
11-27-05, 01:03 AM
Cheap talent is all well and good, but if you think that Cano and Wang's 2005 were worth 5 and 7 million each, then you seriously overestimate their value.
To replace Cano in the FA market and what Cano would be in the coming years would cost about $5 million. Wang is a #3 starter at worst. That costs $7 million.

yankees76
11-27-05, 01:06 AM
No one said it was Wang who is in decline. The point was brought up that most older pitchers see a decrease in their K/9 rate as they get older.

I am not a baseball scout, I am just a fan. I see Wang's K/9 hovering right about where it is for many, many years to come. Some better, some worse. He is a good No. 4 or No. 5. No one is asking him to do more. Let's put it this way, if we get into the Playoffs, and it works out that he is starting Game 3 or Game 4, I am fine with that.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 01:08 AM
I am not a baseball scout, I am just a fan. I see Wang's K/9 hovering right about where it is for many, many years to come. Some better, some worse. He is a good No. 4 or No. 5. No one is asking him to do more. Let's put it this way, if we get into the Playoffs, and it works out that he is starting Game 3 or Game 4, I am fine with that.

I agree, although with his minor league history, and the stuff that he has, I could see his K/9 going up to the 6-6.5 range, and remain there for many years.

Euclis
11-27-05, 01:15 AM
To replace Cano in the FA market and what Cano would be in the coming years would cost about $5 million. Wang is a #3 starter at worst. That costs $7 million.

Wang is a #3 'at worst?' Come on. Half a season of production from a guy who had the 2nd worst combo of k/9 and k/bb in the entire league, he gets hurt, and all of a sudden he's a #3 starter 'at worst?' I think we've found the answer to the original question posed in this thread.


Mussina's ERA+ was 101
Vazquez ERA+ was 99
Davis ERA+ was 110
Chris Young ERA+ was 105
Loaiza ERA+ was 105
Fossum ERA+ was 88
Capauno ERA+ was 106
Sabathia ERA+ was 102
Lowry ERA+ was 110

Wang was better than all of them...

My point was that Wang's success is not sustainable due to his low k rates. Also, Wang pitched at least 40 innings fewer than all those guys, and a hundred fewer than a couple of them. The only guy on that list who had a lower VORP (which is a better way of measuring value than era+, k/9, etc)than Wang was Fossum; everyone else did better, some significantly so. Hell, Noah Lowry (35.4) contributed more than twice as much to the Giants as Wang (17.3) did to the Yankees. That somehow adds up to 7 million? :eek:

27IsNext
11-27-05, 01:18 AM
Cano: although I don't think he'll be a superstar by any means, I think his upside is a good to very good second baseman, depending on just how often he'll get on base in the future. I think his career OBP will be in the .330 to .360 range when he settles into his prime. That, and he has all the tools to be a good defender at second.

Wang: his minor-league K/9 is 7. Kerrigan needs to get a hold of him...

yankees76
11-27-05, 01:26 AM
Cano will be an All-Star 2B. I don't think he is Joe Morgan, but he will be someone we are amazed in years to come to have developed from within. He will not be like Jeter in the same way, but when you compare him to the League, and please, tell me how we are going to replace him (?), we are going to be like, it's cool that he plays for us.

RIyankee
11-27-05, 09:10 AM
Cano's line (.297/.320/.458, 14 home runs) is remarkably similar to another 2B, Ronnie Belliard (.284/.325/.450, 17 home runs). Belliard is 30 years old, and has put up similar numbers for about 7 years now (career line of .272/.341/.412). He made 2.5M in 2005, and his career earnings as of right now are about 6.5M. So no, Cano's production is not worth 5M a year, it is worth, at most, half that.

This is precisely why I think Cano is a tradable commodity. He's a fine young player that I wouldn't trade for just anybody, but not the kind of player to build a team around. If, as a hypothetical, a Dunn or a Wilkerson could be had for him, I'd trade Cano in a heartbeat.

I'd give Wang another year to see whether or not 2005 was a fluke (I do put a lot of stock in K/9). Besides, I'm guessing his trade value isn't that high, and at this point, the Yanks are better off keeping him.

longtimeyankeefan
11-27-05, 09:15 AM
This is precisely why I think Cano is a tradable commodity. He's a fine young player that I wouldn't trade for just anybody, but not the kind of player to build a team around. If, as a hypothetical, a Dunn or a Wilkerson could be had for him, I'd trade Cano in a heartbeat.

I'd give Wang another year to see whether or not 2005 was a fluke (I do put a lot of stock in K/9). Besides, I'm guessing his trade value isn't that high, and at this point, the Yanks are better off keeping him.

I don't see either of these suggested trades as being appropriate for the Yankees.

Acquiring Wilkerson does address our CF problem, but, then, who plays 2B? If we acquire Dunn, who plays CF and 2B? Tony Womack? Do we go out on the FA market and overspend for a 2Bman to fill the position?

MikeN
11-27-05, 09:33 AM
I think we're overlooking the fact that Cano had a fine rookie season last year despite being just a year removed from AA. He showed talent with the bat, adjusted beautifully when the league started to adjust to him, and finished strong with a huge September. Cano's upside is more promising than just looking at his end-of-season numbers and comparing him to Ronnie Belliard.

TommyK8
11-27-05, 09:57 AM
Cano and Wang were both rookies in 2005. In order to somehow try to value them appropriately, it is necessary to try to infer or predict how much they will improve over their rookie seasons. Both are young enough in that they can continue to improve and most possibility have not yet reached their potential. As for Wang, the greatest concern in my opinion is his shoulder. Wang missed considerable time on the DL with shoulders woes in his rookie season. He must also increase his strikeouts and his strikeouts to walks ratio in order to continue to improve. As for Cano, he needs to continue to improve not only offensively, but defensively as well. The right side of the Yankee infield was not exactly airtight last year with Giambi and Cano. Cano has a sweet swing, and I believe that one thing he can do to improve at the plate is become more patient and get into more hitter's counts. Cano had one of the lowest pitches per at bat in all of baseball last year, and if he doesn't start to see more pitches, opposing pitchers will adjust and exploit this tendency, severely limiting his ability to improve or even post the same numbers in the future.

Yanks Lifer
11-27-05, 10:02 AM
I don't dispute all of the statistics presented here as one factor in determining the value of Wang and Cano. IMHO, the numbers are only a part of their value. What I saw at times last year was the ability of both to perform fearlessly and in clutch situations on the big stage that is Yankee Stadium. Not always, but more often than not. I for one can't place a value on how important that is. Jeter is a prime example. Is he the best overall shortstop looking at only the numbers? Without a doubt no, but how many countless times since '96 has he come up big in the field and at the plate in crucial situations? And Paul O'Neill's internal fire thrived in NY.

We've all seen players come to the Yankees who had much success elsewhwere only to fail (Vazquez, Rogers, Irabu, Contreras, Weaver, etc.) in NY. I'm not saying Wang and Cano will be Jeter-like but after a pretty good sample size that was 2004, they deserve more time rather than be jettisoned for another "star" destined to fail.

Euclis
11-27-05, 10:19 AM
I don't dispute all of the statistics presented here as one factor in determining the value of Wang and Cano. IMHO, the numbers are only a part of their value. What I saw at times last year was the ability of both to perform fearlessly and in clutch situations on the big stage that is Yankee Stadium. Not always, but more often than not. I for one can't place a value on how important that is. Jeter is a prime example. Is he the best overall shortstop looking at only the numbers? Without a doubt no, but how many countless times since '96 has he come up big in the field and at the plate in crucial situations? And Paul O'Neill's internal fire thrived in NY.

We've all seen players come to the Yankees who had much success elsewhwere only to fail (Vazquez, Rogers, Irabu, Contreras, Weaver, etc.) in NY. I'm not saying Wang and Cano will be Jeter-like but after a pretty good sample size that was 2004, they deserve more time rather than be jettisoned for another "star" destined to fail.

I'd be curious to know how you define 'performing fearlessly and in clutch situations.' Cano got hot in September, but was pretty bad all year with runners on base (.701 ops), risp (.604), and close and late (.694), which would explain why he had so few rbis; Posada, Bernie or Giambi all had more than he did, despite Cano's 30-40 extra hits.


Cano had one of the lowest pitches per at bat in all of baseball last year, and if he doesn't start to see more pitches, opposing pitchers will adjust and exploit this tendency, severely limiting his ability to improve or even post the same numbers in the future.


Cano had by far the lowest p/pa of any hitter in baseball (Cano saw 3.05 p/pa, Crawford as next at 3.22), and this was reflected in his walk totals.

RobertMeacham
11-27-05, 10:40 AM
Cano got hot in September, but was pretty bad all year with runners on base (.701 ops), risp (.604), and close and late (.694), which would explain why he had so few rbis; Posada, Bernie or Giambi all had more than he did, despite Cano's 30-40 extra hits.


Cano did have less RBIs than these players last year. He also batted in the 9 spot more often, had 10 years less major league experience, and made $10 mil less than Posada, Bernie, or Giambi. He may be an okay value for his age and salary. He at least desrves another year or two to prove his worth, and see if he can increase his plate discilpline.

Euclis
11-27-05, 10:44 AM
Cano did have less RBIs than these players last year. He also batted in the 9 spot more often, had 10 years less major league experience, and made $10 mil less than Posada, Bernie, or Giambi. He may be an okay value for his age and salary. He at least desrves another year or two to prove his worth, and see if he can increase his plate discilpline.

I'm not saying get rid of him, I'm saying let's not call Cano something he's not.

KissTheRings
11-27-05, 10:48 AM
My point was that Wang's success is not sustainable due to his low k rates. Also, Wang pitched at least 40 innings fewer than all those guys, and a hundred fewer than a couple of them. The only guy on that list who had a lower VORP (which is a better way of measuring value than era+, k/9, etc)than Wang was Fossum; everyone else did better, some significantly so. Hell, Noah Lowry (35.4) contributed more than twice as much to the Giants as Wang (17.3) did to the Yankees. That somehow adds up to 7 million? :eek:

Do you also consider wang's babip to be a fluke?

Euclis
11-27-05, 11:06 AM
Do you also consider wang's babip to be a fluke?

Yes I do, here's why.

Wang's babip was .270. Extreme groundball pitchers will have a higher babip than other pitchers; groundball pitchers balance this out by getting more double plays, allowing fewer extra base hits, and allowing fewer home runs. Let's compare Wang's babip to the 5 other Yankee starters with the most innings:
RJ: .288
Mussina: .328
Pavano: .333
Brown: .391
Wright: .336

Wang had the best luck on balls in play, far better than everyone. Which is odd, considering they were all pitching in front of the same defense. Pavano and Brown are both gb pitchers, and they had much higher babip than Wang.

Lets check out Wang's babip compared to the top 10 gb pitchers around baseball:

Webb: .310
Westbrook: .291
Lowe: .286
Mulder: .299
Hudson: .291
Burnett: .304
Wright: .322
Carpenter: .285
Maddux: .299
Lidle: .327

The Yankee defense was not all that great last year (10th in the AL in defensive efficiency), so it isn't the Yankees outstanding infield defense that gave Wright by far the best babip among ground ball pitchers. In fact, most of those pitchers had better infields than Wang had.

So yes, based on the fact that his babip is much lower than any other yankee starter, and the fact that his babip is much lower than any other groundball pitcher, I'm pretty certain that Wang's babip was a fluke.

Wang's Groundballs
11-27-05, 11:24 AM
You may want to take a look at Wang's LD% before you say his BABIP was just a fluke.

gold23
11-27-05, 11:29 AM
Yes I do, here's why.

Wang's babip was .270. Extreme groundball pitchers will have a higher babip than other pitchers; groundball pitchers balance this out by getting more double plays, allowing fewer extra base hits, and allowing fewer home runs. Let's compare Wang's babip to the 5 other Yankee starters with the most innings:
RJ: .288
Mussina: .328
Pavano: .333
Brown: .391
Wright: .336

Wang had the best luck on balls in play, far better than everyone. Which is odd, considering they were all pitching in front of the same defense. Pavano and Brown are both gb pitchers, and they had much higher babip than Wang.

Lets check out Wang's babip compared to the top 10 gb pitchers around baseball:

Webb: .310
Westbrook: .291
Lowe: .286
Mulder: .299
Hudson: .291
Burnett: .304
Wright: .322
Carpenter: .285
Maddux: .299
Lidle: .327

The Yankee defense was not all that great last year (10th in the AL in defensive efficiency), so it isn't the Yankees outstanding infield defense that gave Wright by far the best babip among ground ball pitchers. In fact, most of those pitchers had better infields than Wang had.

So yes, based on the fact that his babip is much lower than any other yankee starter, and the fact that his babip is much lower than any other groundball pitcher, I'm pretty certain that Wang's babip was a fluke.


Simple eyeballing will show this not to be especially true. While he probably experienced some luck, a very large percentage of his ground balls were extremely weak hit balls that were going to be fielded anywhere on the diamond.

gold23
11-27-05, 11:39 AM
Well, they haven't replicated their exact production levels for 5 years, they done it for one. (or in Wang's case, for about half a season). It's pretty moot what they would be making if they kept up this production for half a decade, since neither of them were on the radar in April. But just for fun:

Cano's line (.297/.320/.458, 14 home runs) is remarkably similar to another 2B, Ronnie Belliard (.284/.325/.450, 17 home runs). Belliard is 30 years old, and has put up similar numbers for about 7 years now (career line of .272/.341/.412). He made 2.5M in 2005, and his career earnings as of right now are about 6.5M. So no, Cano's production is not worth 5M a year, it is worth, at most, half that.

Wang is a tougher case, but he has put together 116.1 innings of solid starting pitching. He got hurt and missed significant time (I believe that happened to him in the minors as well, not certain). He has an amazingly low k/9 and a pretty bad k/bb, which doesn't exactly indicate future success (though in all fairness, he had much better peripherals in the minors, and those could eventually come out). I strongly disagree that Wang's production was worth 7M last year. He has no track record, and that kind of production is worth much less than 7M. Wang's vorp in 2005 was 17.3, behind such starters as Rick Helling, Victor Zambrano, Matt Morris, and Scott Elarton. Were he to replicate that exact production for 5 years, he would be lucky to get 3-4M (as well as being very injury prone).


Your argument is running a bit in circles, though. I was responding to the fact that to replace similar type production at those position would cost in the range of 5-7 million per.

The Belliard argument isn't really similar. He had his breakout year these past two seasons, but before that was mediocre. Additionally, he's about to make $4 million this year, and would command in excess of that on the open market (which is the argument here).

And not sure where you were following the players, but BOTH were on the radar well in advance of this season. In fact, Cano was the Yankees' biggest trading chip in '04 near the deadline (the reason he shifted to 3B for a little bit). And Wang was one of the top pitching prospects, and easily considered the closest to being ready. Considering the $ guys like Wright and Pavano got last year for essentially the only two good seasons either of them had in their careers....I find it quite easy to believe Wang would command $5-7 million if he simply stayed the same pitcher he was this past year.

Euclis
11-27-05, 11:47 AM
You may want to take a look at Wang's LD% before you say his BABIP was just a fluke.

Line drive % is more of a result of the batter's skill than the pitcher's. From the hardball times:


We really don't know how persistent the ability is among major league pitchers to manage the number of line drives allowed. In fact, the evidence I've seen would indicate that, once a major league pitcher reaches the major leagues, his line drive-stopping capability is pretty much the same as every other pitcher's.

In other words, the line drive is usually a result of the batter's skill, and not a lack of the pitcher's.


I would still be curious to know what Wang's ld% is compared to other pitchers.


Simple eyeballing will show this not to be especially true. While he probably experienced some luck, a very large percentage of his ground balls were extremely weak hit balls that were going to be fielded anywhere on the diamond.

I'd say that almost every pitcher with good numbers will look good doing it. Maybe Wang is a unique talent; he had a successful half year with awful k rates and a much lower babip than pitchers in similar situations. Much more likely that his babip was unusually low due to a little luck. That will balance out.

Euclis
11-27-05, 11:57 AM
Your argument is running a bit in circles, though. I was responding to the fact that to replace similar type production at those position would cost in the range of 5-7 million per.

The Belliard argument isn't really similar. He had his breakout year these past two seasons, but before that was mediocre. Additionally, he's about to make $4 million this year, and would command in excess of that on the open market (which is the argument here).

And not sure where you were following the players, but BOTH were on the radar well in advance of this season. In fact, Cano was the Yankees' biggest trading chip in '04 near the deadline (the reason he shifted to 3B for a little bit). And Wang was one of the top pitching prospects, and easily considered the closest to being ready. Considering the $ guys like Wright and Pavano got last year for essentially the only two good seasons either of them had in their careers....I find it quite easy to believe Wang would command $5-7 million if he simply stayed the same pitcher he was this past year.

I'm not so sure belliard just broke out the last 2 years (ops of .774 and .775). In his rookie year (.808) and in 2001 (.788), he was arguably a better player.

As for Cano and Wang being on the radar, ok. I had heard both their names prior to the season, but I don't know as much about Yankee prospects as most of you. I know this: At the end of each season, BA puts out top 10 lists for each franchise. Last year, Cano was #2, between duncan and hughes. Sounds about right. Wang, on the other hand, was at #10. I read the reactions of people on this board, and most of the reaction concerning Wang was of surprise.

One thing people keep ignoring: Wang missed a significant part of the season due to injury. Young pitchers who are injured and don't appear to have a very high ceiling do not get big money contracts.

Dr. Gonzo
11-27-05, 01:13 PM
I don't think cano will become the messiah like some people seem to insinuate. I think he will be a luis sojo, maybe I am jaded because I saw a picture of Luis here when he was young and looked just like cano.

On a side note, I don't get why he isn't fast.

Wang I think will have the better career.

AMYanks
11-27-05, 01:31 PM
I don't think cano will become the messiah like some people seem to insinuate. I think he will be a luis sojo, maybe I am jaded because I saw a picture of Luis here when he was young and looked just like cano.

On a side note, I don't get why he isn't fast.

Wang I think will have the better career.

Considering Cano's rookie season (102 OPS+) was better than Sojo's BEST season (92 OPS+), I think he'll be better. ;)

Huktonfonix
11-27-05, 03:44 PM
For the record, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Cano and Wang would deserve 5-7m dollar deals today. What we're saying is to get proven major league talent to replace them, at similar levels of production, would cost us that much on the FA market.

Fabien Brandy
11-27-05, 04:03 PM
For the record, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Cano and Wang would deserve 5-7m dollar deals today. What we're saying is to get proven major league talent to replace them, at similar levels of production, would cost us that much on the FA market.
Exactly - if it was announced today that both received lifetime bans for using steroids or something, how much would it cost the Yankees to fill those spots?

gold23
11-27-05, 08:07 PM
Yes...the argument is not what they are currently worth on the open market, since they aren't there. It's what similar production would be worth. If a guy like Belliard hit the market, he'd be worth at least $5 million (obviously his own team believes this as they picked up his option at 4). And I think Cano has a higher upside.

If Wang had his exact season, he'd command in the same or higher range. Of course, it would certainly be dependant upon his career to that point, but if he simply pitches at the same level for the next few years he'd be worth as much or more on the market as a guy like Jaret Wright or Kris Benson.

effdamets
11-28-05, 10:46 AM
By no means, do I want to see Cano get traded. Or Wang. But let's face it, you could project the numbers until your face turns blue. The fact is, we don't know what either of them are going to bring to the table in 2006. Please, both of them can suck, or both of them could be all-stars (yes one could suck and the other can be an all-star).

This is the beauty of baseball. My biggest 'problem' is mostly with the fans who believe that these two are going to become hall of famers. Cano has had a nice start, but, he did lose as many games with his glove as he won with his bat. And please tell me what is so special about 8-5, 4.02 while missing time with a bad shoulder (again).

Look, you do the deal for the proven talent, but not foolishly, or to "keep up with the Jones-es".

Who in their right mind would not do a deal like: Cano, Wang, Duncan and DePaula to the Twins, for Santana and Hunter? If we want a good defensive center fielder, then there he is! But wait, then fans start complaining about Hunter's on-base percentage... It's always something with a player that is not favorable to the NY media. This one plays bad defense, that one has a bad OBP, another one is too old. People, not every center fielder is a 5 tool player! There will be no trading for Duke Snider or Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays, or signing them as free agents. The reason being is that once a team gets their hands on someone that has tremendous talent (alah... Andrew Jones) they aren't letting them go! (unless it's a really poorly run organization like the Marlins) But that only happens once in a lifetime.

So please, let's try to be realistic about the young talent on the Yankees.

And realistically, I think the Yankees are laying off of the foolish trades and signings this off season to try and build the farm system up again. They realize what has been going on, and now they want to correct it. I also believe that they think with a couple fill in type players, they can get back to the playoffs and compete for another championship. They won't need a 'super star signing' to get them there. (only my opinion)

gold23
11-28-05, 10:54 AM
By no means, do I want to see Cano get traded. Or Wang. But let's face it, you could project the numbers until your face turns blue. The fact is, we don't know what either of them are going to bring to the table in 2006. Please, both of them can suck, or both of them could be all-stars (yes one could suck and the other can be an all-star).

This is the beauty of baseball. My biggest 'problem' is mostly with the fans who believe that these two are going to become hall of famers. Cano has had a nice start, but, he did lose as many games with his glove as he won with his bat. And please tell me what is so special about 8-5, 4.02 while missing time with a bad shoulder (again).

Look, you do the deal for the proven talent, but not foolishly, or to "keep up with the Jones-es".

Who in their right mind would not do a deal like: Cano, Wang, Duncan and DePaula to the Twins, for Santana and Hunter? If we want a good defensive center fielder, then there he is! But wait, then fans start complaining about Hunter's on-base percentage... It's always something with a player that is not favorable to the NY media. This one plays bad defense, that one has a bad OBP, another one is too old. People, not every center fielder is a 5 tool player! There will be no trading for Duke Snider or Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays, or signing them as free agents. The reason being is that once a team gets their hands on someone that has tremendous talent (alah... Andrew Jones) they aren't letting them go! (unless it's a really poorly run organization like the Marlins) But that only happens once in a lifetime.

So please, let's try to be realistic about the young talent on the Yankees.

And realistically, I think the Yankees are laying off of the foolish trades and signings this off season to try and build the farm system up again. They realize what has been going on, and now they want to correct it. I also believe that they think with a couple fill in type players, they can get back to the playoffs and compete for another championship. They won't need a 'super star signing' to get them there. (only my opinion)


First....Cano didn't lose as many games with his glove as he did with his bat. The miscues you recall were certainly very big- but with only one exception, the Yankees ended up winning those three or four games that he made a late error. He contributed signifcantly to a bunch of other games offensively...it wasn't even close. Does he need to improve his defense? Absolutely. But the misconception that he cost the Yanks a bunch of games is simply that- a misconception. He COULD have cost them a bunch of games, but he didn't.

Anyway.....you just asked if the Yanks would do a deal that included Johan Santana. Well, there's not a poster on this board who woudn't make that trade. But it's not realistic- there is absolutely no player the Twins woudl deal Santana for. And in almost no package, either. He's pretty cheap considering he's probably the best pitcher in the game, he's young, and he's been pretty durable.

People are saying they wouldn't deal Wang or Cano for mid-level players. Hunter, at this point, is just that. He wouldn't be deserving of a Cano or Wang. Nobody is saying "Don't trade these guys no matter what!". What we are saying is that we'd prefer the Yanks hold onto them unless the offer is someone who would help now and in the future.

Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 11:03 AM
Line drive % is more of a result of the batter's skill than the pitcher's. From the hardball times:

I would still be curious to know what Wang's ld% is compared to other pitchers.

It's more of a hitter's skill but some pitchers do have an ability to prevent line drives.

Wang's LD% was the lowest in the AL for any pitcher with over 100 innings last year.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=pitching&linesToDisplay=1000&sortBy=ldPcnt&thenBy=fip&teamAbbr=Tm&leagueAbbr=AL&qualified=All&Submit=Submit

rightfielder21
11-28-05, 11:04 AM
Who in their right mind would not do a deal like: Cano, Wang, Duncan and DePaula to the Twins, for Santana and Hunter? If we want a good defensive center fielder, then there he is!

But wait, then fans start complaining about Hunter's on-base percentage... It's always something with a player that is not favorable to the NY media. This one plays bad defense, that one has a bad OBP, another one is too old. People, not every center fielder is a 5 tool player!


So please, let's try to be realistic about the young talent on the Yankees.



Why would the Twins do that deal... You want to talk about being "realistic", start with your trade proposals...

And his OBP does suck... Are we supposed to pretend it doesn't?

Are Cano and Wang, tradeable? Yes, in the right deal anyone is...

JeffWeaverFan
11-28-05, 11:05 AM
Wang is a #3 'at worst?' Come on. Half a season of production from a guy who had the 2nd worst combo of k/9 and k/bb in the entire league, he gets hurt, and all of a sudden he's a #3 starter 'at worst?' I think we've found the answer to the original question posed in this thread.

Who had a G/F ratio of 2.96, which places him under Chris Carpenter, Jake Westbrook, Brandon Webb, Sergio Mitre, and Felix Hernandez.

His K rate was not great, but it was much better in the minors and will certainly improve.

If you disregard the injury, and that is an if, and he has another season compareable to this one, then yes, he would make about $7 million on the free agent market IMO.

Either way, even if he were to make $4 million, my original point still holds to answer what the thread was actually asking.

Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 11:08 AM
Why would the Twins do that deal... You want to talk about being "realistic", start with your trade proposals...

And his OBP does suck... Are we supposed to pretend it doesn't?

Are Cano and Wang, tradeable? Yes, in the right deal anyone is...

I love that he thinks people wouldn't trade them for Johan Santant. :lol:

Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 11:14 AM
I realize Wang's K rate is concerning, but, if you believe DIPS, there are 3 outcomes a pitcher has control over: Strikeouts, walks + hit batters, and homeruns.

Out of the 3 Wang is above average at not giving out walks and quite a bit above average at preventing homeruns. He's also quite a bit below average at striking guys out.

But, as many have mentioned, his minor league performance suggests that he will start striking more guys out as well. Overall, I've got to say that as long as Wang stays healthy -- a big if at this point -- there are plenty of reasons to be very, very excited about what he can do.

effdamets
11-28-05, 11:15 AM
First....Cano didn't lose as many games with his glove as he did with his bat. The miscues you recall were certainly very big- but with only one exception, the Yankees ended up winning those three or four games that he made a late error. He contributed signifcantly to a bunch of other games offensively...it wasn't even close. Does he need to improve his defense? Absolutely. But the misconception that he cost the Yanks a bunch of games is simply that- a misconception. He COULD have cost them a bunch of games, but he didn't.

Anyway.....you just asked if the Yanks would do a deal that included Johan Santana. Well, there's not a poster on this board who woudn't make that trade. But it's not realistic- there is absolutely no player the Twins woudl deal Santana for. And in almost no package, either. He's pretty cheap considering he's probably the best pitcher in the game, he's young, and he's been pretty durable.

People are saying they wouldn't deal Wang or Cano for mid-level players. Hunter, at this point, is just that. He wouldn't be deserving of a Cano or Wang. Nobody is saying "Don't trade these guys no matter what!". What we are saying is that we'd prefer the Yanks hold onto them unless the offer is someone who would help now and in the future.
I think there are people ARE saying don't trade these guys. At least that is what I have read. They bring salary and value into the equation, which I happen to agree with, somewhat. And Wang is no special prize. Not by any means. He has been on the DL at least twice with shoulder problems. That's not exactly what I would call promising.

I think, to be clear, I am saying that the Yankees should listen up when Wang's name is mentioned (more so than Cano however). I think that is my whole point....

Oh and I didn't mean for it to sound like Cano cost the Yankees a dozen games with his glove. However, I believe, like from the old school, that your 'up-the-middle' players should be solid defensively, more than make offensive contributions. And Cano's defense is average (right now). There are too many plays that he should make that he doesn't, or didn't. Routine type plays. And I really don't care what the UZR is or any of the other "numbers". I watch this guy play everyday and that's all I need. His mechanics to field a ground ball are horrible. His footwork, is so-so. I'm not saying he can't or won't improve... But what if he doesn't? It's almost like some of the people in this forum, not all, believe that it's guaranteed he will become this 'Joe Morgan' type player. And what I'm saying is that the odds are stacked, highly, against that happening.

rightfielder21
11-28-05, 11:45 AM
I think there are people ARE saying don't trade these guys.

You can't say you will trade/not trade someone without knowing the deal...

Zzyzx
11-28-05, 11:48 AM
Who had a G/F ratio of 2.96, which places him under Chris Carpenter, Jake Westbrook, Brandon Webb, Sergio Mitre, and Felix Hernandez.

His K rate was not great, but it was much better in the minors and will certainly improve.

If you disregard the injury, and that is an if, and he has another season compareable to this one, then yes, he would make about $7 million on the free agent market IMO.

Either way, even if he were to make $4 million, my original point still holds to answer what the thread was actually asking.

How realistic is it to expect that all of the worst aspects of a player are going to return to his historic norms but all of the best aspects show genuine improvement? That's the sort of reason why fans of a team tend to overvalue their own prospects and undervalue those of other teams.

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 02:24 PM
How realistic is it to expect that all of the worst aspects of a player are going to return to his historic norms but all of the best aspects show genuine improvement? That's the sort of reason why fans of a team tend to overvalue their own prospects and undervalue those of other teams.

Geniune improvement? Wang has been a G/F heavy pitcher for some time. He also struck out a lot of hitters in the minors. When he starts getting more aggresive with his fastball, he'll probably strike out more in the majors. I doubt ever anything more than 7/9ip, tops, but more than what he's doing now.

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 02:25 PM
I realize Wang's K rate is concerning, but, if you believe DIPS, there are 3 outcomes a pitcher has control over: Strikeouts, walks + hit batters, and homeruns.

Out of the 3 Wang is above average at not giving out walks and quite a bit above average at preventing homeruns. He's also quite a bit below average at striking guys out.

But, as many have mentioned, his minor league performance suggests that he will start striking more guys out as well. Overall, I've got to say that as long as Wang stays healthy -- a big if at this point -- there are plenty of reasons to be very, very excited about what he can do.

DIPS also doesn't take into account that pitchers have some control over XBHs. And, its been demonstrated that ground balls are far less likely to become hits than fly balls. But, of course, I'm sure you already knew all this.

Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 02:32 PM
DIPS also doesn't take into account that pitchers have some control over XBHs. And, its been demonstrated that ground balls are far less likely to become hits than fly balls. But, of course, I'm sure you already knew all this.

I think you mean GB are less likely to become XBH, as a bit more GB become H than FB. And the other thing DIPS doesn't control for is LD%, which pitchers do have at least some control over and Wang looks pretty excellent at...

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-28-05, 02:40 PM
people are forgetting Wang had around a 7k/9 rate in the minors. If you say his babip is a fluke, dont you also have to say his unusually low K rate is also a fluke?

I think Wang will be around what he was last season in 2006. His K rate should improve which should cancel out his "luck" not being there. I have no clue if he will be healthy but if he is im saying he will be a solid number 3-4 guy.

I Love Wang
11-28-05, 02:41 PM
I think you mean GB are less likely to become XBH, as a bit more GB become H than FB. And the other thing DIPS doesn't control for is LD%, which pitchers do have at least some control over and Wang looks pretty excellent at...

Right.

Zzyzx
11-28-05, 03:02 PM
Oddly enough, I was just reading [1] that the Hardball Times 2006 Annual had a study that showed exceedingly limited coorelation between LD% from the same pitcher from year to year. So you have to figure that Wang is likely to give up more linedrives and have a higher BABIP but also is likely to strike out more batters.

Both the good and the bad information has to be considered or fans will have unrealistic expectations.

[1] http://ussmariner.com/?p=3145#comments , comment #20

Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 03:15 PM
Oddly enough, I was just reading [1] that the Hardball Times 2006 Annual had a study that showed exceedingly limited coorelation between LD% from the same pitcher from year to year. So you have to figure that Wang is likely to give up more linedrives and have a higher BABIP but also is likely to strike out more batters.

Both the good and the bad information has to be considered or fans will have unrealistic expectations.

[1] http://ussmariner.com/?p=3145#comments , comment #20

Very interesting. Thank you.

The value of a GB certainly makes Wang look valuable, though...

jcan411
11-28-05, 03:21 PM
I love how people talk about Wang. Put Cano aside for a minute and look at Wang. He had a very average 2005 season.
We can look at luck all we want and GB % but the bottom line is that he was 8-5 with a 4.02 ERA in only 116 innings and with only 3.6 k/9 and a .256 Ba against.

These are very average

I can't believe how people see him as untouchable and look at Beckett as some piece of crap. BECKETT IS YOUNGER THAN WANG.

Wang has shown little to think he will become an all-star pitcher at this point. If we could trade him for a mid-prime center fielder than holy ................ we have done a snow job! What is it with this guy and this board. Does he have naked photos of you people.....

rightfielder21
11-28-05, 03:25 PM
Does he have naked photos of you people.....

Yes...

Wang's Groundballs
11-28-05, 04:21 PM
Very interesting. Thank you.

The value of a GB certainly makes Wang look valuable, though...

Anyways, using the run values there (except for bunts, which I have no idea where I'd find) I calculated how many runs some pitchers should have given up:


PLAYER'S NAME IP SO BB IBB HB GB FB R RA
Rivera, Mariano 78.3 80 18 0 4 112 59 26 3.00
Santana, Johan 231.7 238 45 1 1 236 259 86 3.34
Johnson, Randy 225.7 211 45 2 12 283 251 91 3.64
Burnett, A.J. 209.0 198 78 1 7 339 140 86 3.72
Millwood, Kevin 192.0 146 52 0 4 270 201 95 4.44
Wang, Tiger 116.3 47 29 3 6 252 85 58 4.45
Mussina, Mike 179.7 142 47 0 7 244 205 91 4.58
Maroth, Mike 209.0 115 50 1 9 324 241 109 4.67
Zito, Barry 228.3 171 89 0 13 277 264 120 4.74
Pavano, Carl 100.0 56 17 1 8 176 110 54 4.84
Chacon, Shawn 79.0 40 30 0 6 82 94 57 6.49

38Special
11-28-05, 04:52 PM
It's worth mentioning that Wang's K rates in the minors may not mean much for the future. Wang was much different pitcher before 2005. He always had a good fastball in the mid 90s, but without much movement. Also had a good slider and splitter. Before the 05 season he (or the yankees) changed his arm angle and realized he could get tremendous sink on his fastball.

The question is whether or not he can develop his slider and splitter into workable pitches with the new arm angle. I prefer the new arm angle because of the amount of ground balls he was able to get, but it was pretty clear during the season that he was only throwing sinkers and changeups. Mixing in the plus splitter he had before would net him more strikeouts and allow him to get that ERA down into the low 3s.