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Slidemaster
11-09-05, 03:26 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroids&num=1

Captain Yankee
11-09-05, 03:50 PM
It is absolutely sickening how every aspect of MLB (players, management, trainers, the commissioner, the fans, the media) all stuck their heads in the sand on this issue. I mean trying to gain an advantage (unfair or not) has always been a part of baseball. Stealing signs, doctoring the baseball, corked bats, sharpening spikes, etc. are all examples of this throughout baseball history. This is also not the first time ballplayers have abused substances (cocaine, alcohol, amphetamines) but this ruins the integrity of the game. Those guys who were clean were at an obvious disadvantage against those guys that were using. Jason Giambi, Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Gary Sheffield, Rafael Palmeiro, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco and the score of others who probably used during the steroid era should hang their heads in absolute shame. Disgraceful.

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-09-05, 03:54 PM
Theres this misconception among everyone that steroids lets you sit down all day and not have to do anything and you will gain muscle by magic. You have to work out harder and eat more when you take steroids. They let you acchieve more gains than you would be able to get after you reach your max(your max is basically when you at most gain a pound of muscle a year). Steroids by no means doesnt mean you can not work hard.

Slidemaster
11-09-05, 03:58 PM
Theres this misconception among everyone that steroids lets you sit down all day and not have to do anything and you will gain muscle by magic. You have to work out harder and eat more when you take steroids. They let you acchieve more gains than you would be able to get after you reach your max(your max is basically when you at most gain a pound of muscle a year). Steroids by no means doesnt mean you can not work hard.

It kind of seems like steroids grant you a kind of 2nd puberty, where your body can grow and accumulate muscle just as quickly as an adolescent's. You have to work your a$$ off to achieve the growth, but it's an interesting comparison.

destro
11-09-05, 04:07 PM
dont tell me what to do!

YankeeFan1
11-09-05, 04:09 PM
I'm tired of steroids and even more tired of ESPN exploiting every sports issue out there. I want to put the baseball media on trial for their complicity in the whole steroids scandal because their fake outrage after their years of silence is sickening.

lem
11-09-05, 04:19 PM
I'm tired of steroids and even more tired of ESPN exploiting every sports issue out there. I want to put the baseball media on trial for their complicity in the whole steroids scandal because their fake outrage after their years of silence is sickening.

YES. (character limit)

NYYBombshell
11-09-05, 04:19 PM
The league needs to do something about this. And when I say "do something", I don't mean this p*ssy little 10-game suspension for a first offense. 1st offense should be 50 games, 2nd offense is the whole season and 3rd offense is "Get your sh*t and get out!".

It just seems like Bud Selig et al., just don't give a damn.

Tifoso
11-09-05, 04:23 PM
The league needs to do something about this. And when I say "do something", I don't mean this p*ssy little 10-game suspension for a first offense. 1st offense should be 50 games, 2nd offense is the whole season and 3rd offense is "Get your sh*t and get out!".


Exactly. Don't worry--if MLB doesn't do it, Congress will.

NYYBombshell
11-09-05, 04:29 PM
Exactly. Don't worry--if MLB doesn't do it, Congress will.

I hope so. It's a joke when players think they can use them without serious penalty because they know the league won't do jack sh*t to stop them. You'd think someone as high-profile as Raffy Palmiero would keep the Felix Heredia's and Matt Lawton's of the league from doing them, but that would make sense.....and when does the league ever make sense?

Evil Empire
11-09-05, 04:33 PM
I don't wanna!

LuckyLopez
11-09-05, 04:41 PM
The league needs to do something about this. And when I say "do something", I don't mean this p*ssy little 10-game suspension for a first offense. 1st offense should be 50 games, 2nd offense is the whole season and 3rd offense is "Get your sh*t and get out!".

It just seems like Bud Selig et al., just don't give a damn.
Is that at all fair though? MLB and Selig don't just have the autonomy to do as they please. The players' union is too strong. Selig has publicly declared that he wants a stricter policy and laid out a much better plan for the inion to have to deal with. The union, with its usual bravado, dimissed it out of hand. Selig also implemented the first steroid testing policy in baseball years ago in the minors. By all evidence Selig does actually want to do the right thing now, even if he might have turned a blind eye in the past. For all his flaws, Bud ends up getting blamed for a lot of things unfairly.

In the end, do baseball fans feel strongly enough about the steroid issue that they'd be willing to risk a strike over longer penalties? Because that seems like its the genuine risk of Selig were to bullhead his way past the wall the union has built.

EDIT: It also should be noted that Congress seems to be realizing the strength of union and the difficulty of their position now. Didn't they just back off their demands for Olympic level testing and move to a more reasonable policy that mirrors Selig's proposal? 50 Gs on 1st positive test, ban on 3rd? Something like that.

Tifoso
11-09-05, 04:41 PM
I hope so. It's a joke when players think they can use them without serious penalty because they know the league won't do jack sh*t to stop them. You'd think someone as high-profile as Raffy Palmiero would keep the Felix Heredia's and Matt Lawton's of the league from doing them, but that would make sense.....and when does the league ever make sense?

It's dollars and cents, amica mia.

You're marginal player A. You're making at or above the major league minimum. You swat 12 HR/yr....but if you could double that, you'd be making millions. The upside is almost irresistable. They have to make the downside risks even greater...

All the suspensions you suggested....without pay.

Captain Yankee
11-09-05, 04:47 PM
Theres this misconception among everyone that steroids lets you sit down all day and not have to do anything and you will gain muscle by magic. You have to work out harder and eat more when you take steroids. They let you acchieve more gains than you would be able to get after you reach your max(your max is basically when you at most gain a pound of muscle a year). Steroids by no means doesnt mean you can not work hard.
That isn't the point though. First, steroids are illegal. Second, they are harmful to your body. Third, they offer an unfair advantage for those who do use them. What about the guys who were clean who use the weight room that don't use steroids? Isn't there something to be said for "natural" God-given talent instead of a chemical boost? No one is saying you should ban supplements like creatine, protein shakes etc. But there is a major distinction between anabolic/designer steroids and the supplements you can purchase from GNC.

Captain Yankee
11-09-05, 04:48 PM
It's dollars and cents, amica mia.

You're marginal player A. You're making at or above the major league minimum. You swat 12 HR/yr....but if you could double that, you'd be making millions. The upside is almost irresistable. They have to make the downside risks even greater...

All the suspensions you suggested....without pay.
But what about the superstar players that use them to hit 70 HRs instead of 40 or 50 HRs?

JeterRodriguezSheff
11-09-05, 04:54 PM
That isn't the point though. First, steroids are illegal. Second, they are harmful to your body. Third, they offer an unfair advantage for those who do use them. What about the guys who were clean who use the weight room that don't use steroids? Isn't there something to be said for "natural" God-given talent instead of a chemical boost? No one is saying you should ban supplements like creatine, protein shakes etc. But there is a major distinction between anabolic/designer steroids and the supplements you can purchase from GNC.

Im not disagreeing with that, and I think steroids should be banned with strict punishments, but the way people imply steroids let you get big and athlethic by sitting on your ass all day long disgust me.

Tifoso
11-09-05, 04:56 PM
But what about the superstar players that use them to hit 70 HRs instead of 40 or 50 HRs?

Absolutely. In no way am I implying that they should be treated any differently.

If anything, they should be held to an even highre level: after all, they are messing with records.*




*yes, I know, not to mention what steroids do to them long term.

WHIP
11-09-05, 05:36 PM
Im not disagreeing with that, and I think steroids should be banned with strict punishments, but the way people imply steroids let you get big and athlethic by sitting on your ass all day long disgust me.

Don't come here with your logic and reason.

YankeeFan1
11-09-05, 06:03 PM
I love the part of the article where Wenzlaff finally rats out McGwire. I remember when he said that he would only talk about Canseco because he gave himself up. Ahh, no honor among steroids dealers and their clients. LOL!

Did you read where he was supplying "20 to 30 MLB players and 10 NFL players" across the country? Insanity. Also, Greg Stejskal, the FBI agent who Kevin Hallinan, the head MLB security claimed never contacted them is the one who arrested Wenzlaff, but Selig & Co knew nothing. Yeah, right.

I wonder if Bernie Miklasz and the other media members who attacked Steve Wilstein for exposing McGwire and Thomas Boswell for exposing are the least bit embarrassed? I suspect not.

Okay, all you doubters and media members say it together, "Jose was right!" Canseco was right about McGwire using the Andro as a smokescreen all along. I for one, I'm looking forward to reading the next Jose Canseco masterpiece, "Vindicated."

ring403
11-09-05, 06:14 PM
It is absolutely sickening how every aspect of MLB (players, management, trainers, the commissioner, the fans, the media) all stuck their heads in the sand on this issue.
Not this fan. Performance enhancing drugs have been a part of professional sports, including baseball for decades, and athletes will continue to use them no matter how the rules are changed. For proof, look at the IOC. They have the toughest rules for athletes of any govering body in the world. Despite the strict testing policy, and the harsh penalties, Olympic athletes continue to get busted for cheating all the time.
I'm in favor of baseball adopting whatever rules are necessary to make people feel better, but I'm also not naive enough to think that they will stop players from using performance enhancing drugs.

deranged2005
11-09-05, 06:20 PM
This is also in ESPN The Magazine right?

WHIP
11-09-05, 06:22 PM
I for one can't wait to see how MLB - or Congress - handles gene doping.

LuckyLopez
11-09-05, 07:05 PM
Okay, all you doubters and media members say it together, "Jose was right!" Canseco was right about McGwire using the Andro as a smokescreen all along. I for one, I'm looking forward to reading the next Jose Canseco masterpiece, "Vindicated."
In all fairness, didn't Canseco still have a number of stories and incidents that most likely couldn't have occurred and didn't he still toss around names about potential users based upon 2nd hand accounts, rumors, and simply who he thought "looked like" a user? (If I'm wrong in these things I'm more than happy to be corrected since I didn't read the book and am relying upon reports and 2nd hand accounts.) Canseco being right on any number of issues doesn't really make me feel bad for questioning his credability. He didn't really seem to help himself along.

ring403
11-09-05, 07:20 PM
Canseco being right on any number of issues doesn't really make me feel bad for questioning his credability. He didn't really seem to help himself along.
Not much to say for a "man" who ratted out former friends and teammates soley to make a few bucks, and continues to glorify steroids to anyone who will listen.

LuckyLopez
11-09-05, 07:35 PM
While I agree with you I think that's a bit of a red herring arguement (or Ad Hominem, I suppose). A man with poor character saying the right thing is still saying the right thing. It may not change my opinion of his character, but I'd be wrong to ignore him when he does right. But if its a question of credability, that's a different issue. Canseco said a LOT of things in that book. A LOT of them sounded outrageous and unlikely. Some of them were shown to be outright lies. He involved a LOT of players in that book, and his level of confidence seemed to range from players he personally injected with steroids to players who asked him about them to players who he heard rumors about to players who he just thought "looked like" users. How are we supposed to believe him about these things when we're allready questioning his responsability and credability about the names given but after a simple fact check of his book turns up any number of discrepencies?

terminator
11-09-05, 08:29 PM
He involved a LOT of players in that book, and his level of confidence seemed to range from players he personally injected with steroids to players who asked him about them to players who he heard rumors about to players who he just thought "looked like" users. How are we supposed to believe him about these things when we're allready questioning his responsability and credability about the names given but after a simple fact check of his book turns up any number of discrepencies?

To be fair to him - he made it clear when he was speculating as opposed to when he was sure of something. Sure, there were some discrepencies - but nothing major really.

The players he said have taken steroids for sure (as far as I recall):

Palmeiro
Pudge
Juan Gone
Giambi
Big Mac

The players he believed were on steroids - based on them asking him about the intricacies of steroids/assumptions:

Tejada
Bret Boone

And he tossed out Clemens name as someone who he thought might have taken steroids after leaving Boston - but he did say that he had no proof.

The innacuracies in his book really have no relevance to his steroid accusations.
IMO, you can choose to take his "assumptions" with a whole bag of salt, but I have no reason to believe that he is lying about the guys he was positive about.

LuckyLopez
11-09-05, 09:01 PM
Its totally fair to make the difference between his flat out accusations and his suspicions. But I think its also fair to say that if he was even half aware of the nature of society that the mere mention of names in his book in regards to steroid use, regardless of the context in which he was saying them, was bound to impact those players negatively. In a matter like this the exact details of the accusations start to get fuzzy when the word starts getting around. Only so many people actually read the book and even of them many tend to merge passages and details.

I'm trying to remember the details of his suspicions. He claimed that Tejada asked him questions and that Boone made some passing comment to him during a game, right? I thought he fingered someone as looking like he was a user but perhaps I'm simply remembering some interview he did after the book. Or I might just be completely wrong.

I'm not outright saying he was lying about anyone. But I think the inaccuracies in his book do relate into the general reliability of what he's saying. Do I think the bizarre nature of some of his made up records and moments directly relates to some memory of physically injecting Giambi or McGwire? No. But it does open the door as far as what is and isn't true within his words. I don't know, it just strikes me as hard to say that "sure, he seemed to lie or get greatly confused about easily checkable aspects about his career and the game, but I don't have any reason to believe he might have done the same about his steroid stories." Why his memory might be stronger about one part of his life than another, I have no way of knowing. Add in that in the interviews and appearances he did to promote the book he changed many of the details or denied many of the claims within the steroid portions of the book and how much credebility does he hold? When he spoke in front of Congress didn't he say that the details and number of times he said that he had injected McGwire in the book were inaccurate?

Again, its not that I'm of the mind that everything Canseco said was a lie. Just that I don't know what to believe and what not to believe when he speaks. That a number of the thinks he says happened might have happened that doesn't necessarily make the story as a whole true. If I say that I saw Vladimir Guerrero do steroids. That I gave him them and helped inject them. There's no real reason for my story to be believed. But if Guerrero tests positive in a year, that doesn't inherrently make my story more believable because there's still no reason to believe that I did and saw the things I said. Just that he was guilty of the general thing that I accussed him of.

(Of course, I'm not even pretending that me making that claim has the same level of credability that Canseco making claims about players he shared lockerrooms with. It was just a rough hypothetical I thought might make my stand a little more clear. Also, I of course am not accusing Vlad of anything, I just grabbed him as a name.)

YankeePride1967
11-09-05, 09:06 PM
I printed it out at work today, I'll be reading it over the next few days.

YankeeFan1
11-09-05, 09:38 PM
I'm trying to remember the details of his suspicions. He claimed that Tejada asked him questions and that Boone made some passing comment to him during a game, right? I thought he fingered someone as looking like he was a user but perhaps I'm simply remembering some interview he did after the book. Or I might just be completely wrong. Then I suggest you read Jose's book. I read it and didn't spend a penny. I borrowed it from the public library. It was a quick read. You should also read Howard Bryant's "Juicing the Game." The public library here again. Bryant does a much better job than that ESPN article.

It is still unbelievable to me amount the vitriol thrown at Canseco after he wrote his book even though most of the people in the baseball community knew how pervasive steriods were and that Canseco was telling the truth about the people he did steroids with and discussed steroids with as well as the players he suspected of steroid use. I'm going to call it the "white chalk line" from now on.

LuckyLopez
11-09-05, 10:47 PM
I think its a fair request that I give it a read. I can't say I really have much interest in his personal accounts but I also try not be ignorant of things I debate about and I'm certainly going against that in this case in relying upon 2nd hand accounts.

And for what its worth, I don't mean to throw any venom at the guy. I think its readily apparent that he was at least in part in this for a quick cash grab, but that doesn't mean that he didn't have some worth to his accusations. But there are still plenty of things that are apparent from just the peripheral events including discrepencies with the non-steroid aspects of the book, reckless naming of players he suspected of use, and his personal admittance that the details of the steroid use were false. To some degree I lose interest in reading Jose's accounts of steroid abuse when he went in front of Congress and said that they were (to some extent) false.

But I really am just making excuses for not taking the time to read a chapter or 2.

EDIT: And for the record, I'm not of the mind that steroids are not a problem in baseball. I personally wouldn't be shocked if Derek Jeter and Chipper Jones got busted tomorrow. I've just never understood how anyone can regard Canseco as a credible source, regardless of the seeming validity of his claims.