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Gator
05-27-01, 12:46 AM
Tonight against the San Diego Padres, Diamondbacks pitcher Curt Schilling took a perfect game into the 8th inning, got the first batter to fly out, before allowing a bunt single to Padres catcher Ben Davis.

Afterwards, Arizona Manager Bob Brenly called Davis's play "Chickensh#t," and I'm tempted to agree with him. If you're going to break up a perfect game in the bottom of the 8th inning, do it with a real hit. Not some flukey bunt single. If it was a 1-0 game, I could understand it, but the Padres were getting beat 3-0, and with 5 outs, I doubt they could've scored 3 runs against Schilling. I suspect that play will cause a debate for some time to come.

andy14
05-27-01, 01:58 AM
He has a right to be pissed. I imagine that if someone had done that to Wells or Cone, Torre (despite all his media savvy) would have been absolutely furious.

SVT Cobra
05-27-01, 02:40 AM
Well, what an exciting game!

I can see both sides of the controversy. I was at the game, and boy was it exciting to see him lay down that bunt. It seemed as if half the crowd was cheering for Curt Schilling and others were ecstatic when Ben Davis got the hit.

On one hand, I think it was a great play on Davis' part to shake things up and get something going for the Padres. You have to remember that this is a battle for first place in the NL West, it's not a time to roll over. Plus, it was only 2-0 at the time, and with Davis on, he brings the tying run to the plate in Bubba Trammell, who as Ben said himself, "can go deep at any time."

On the other hand, I guess it could be compared to putting on a suicide squeeze with a 10-0 lead. I think Bob Brenly was pretty mad, but then again, his son was also hit by a flying Rickey Henderson bat during today's game. :o.

Schilling didn't seem to mad though. He just had the "well that's baseball" type of attitude, so I wouldn't think too much of it.

Great effort by both teams, but the Diamondbacks came out on top.

If I were Davis, I'd wear an elbowguard tomorrow ;)

SpinWheelz

Jimbo
05-27-01, 05:29 AM
On the surface you have to say that bunting in that situation is questionable.

However, if you are trying to win the game, a bunt could actually shake the guy up, break his concentration and perhaps lead to a rally.

Where is it written that if an opposing pitcher has a perfect game going into the 8th inning you somehow OWE it to him to swing away at all costs?

How many times have you seen a game where a team is up seven or eight to nothing and the other teams scores a meaningless run in the the ninth inning to spoil the shutout?

What is the difference?

You OWE the opposing team nothing...except a WIN at all costs attitude...if they or fans expect anything less then why even bother playing the games?

:cool: :smokin: :cool:

bxny
05-27-01, 07:48 AM
One out in the 8th inning of a perfect game and the catcher of all people bunts? I agree with Brenly, that was "chicken................". Ben Davis is a big PANSY in my politically incorrect opinion. Play it like a man Ben.

Long live the Brooklyn Dodgers, Minnesota Twins, and Montreal Expos.

Bern Baby Be
05-27-01, 10:20 AM
What Davis did is heartbreaking but there's no written rule that says he can't do it. I don't give a &*%$ about un-written rules. Yeah, it would have hurt if someone had done it to Cone or Wells. I believe Carlos Baerga tried to do it to Jim Abbott several years ago. But these guys are Major Leaguers and they should try to be prepared for things like that! To me this is just like the "calling off the dogs" thing about baserunning when it's a blowout. You can never score enough runs these days! With that in mind, they should also think, "You never know when someone will try to bunt during a no-hitter.

#1PaFan
05-27-01, 11:21 AM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/2001/20010526/recap/arisdg.html

"I don't know what the school of thought is," Schilling said. "I've seen a lot of games go late, and I've always heard that after the fifth and sixth you earn your way on. It's a 2-0 game, so I can't really be out there being (mad) about that, because the tying run is at the plate from that point on, and you've got to get outs. But I was a little surprised, yeah."

Brenly, the Diamondbacks' manager, wasn't as diplomatic.

"Ben Davis is young and has a lot to learn," Brenly said. "That was just uncalled for."

With the score only being 2-0 at the time I really don't think what Davis did was THAT bad. Hell, that brings the tying run to the plate. Winning is the bottom line.

However, had that happened to the Yanks, I'd probably have a different opinion. ;)

b-ball-lunachick
05-27-01, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by SpinWheelz
...I think it was a great play on Davis' part to shake things up and get something going for the Padres. You have to remember that this is a battle for first place in the NL West, it's not a time to roll over. Plus, it was only 2-0 at the time, and with Davis on, he brings the tying run to the plate in Bubba Trammell, who as Ben said himself, "can go deep at any time."

Exactly...the NL West has the tightest division race going, and despite whether it's May or September, San Diego is down one game to this team and it's looking like every game can make a difference...the last place team in this division is only 2 games out...Davis is being paid by San Diego to get on base any way he can, and that's what he should have done...

I could maybe understand the debate a little more if San Diego was down 7-0, but they weren't, it was only 2-0...even then, this "earning your way on" stuff is crap...I think that's what Davis did -- he bunted for a base hit...if he reached on an error (unearned) that would be okay because it was Arizona's mistake? What does any player on San Diego owe Arizona in preserving them a stake in baseball history?

As for the argument that it's like a putting on a suicide squeeze when you're up 10-0, I don't see that as a comparable analogy, because it's more like rubbing it in the other team's face, when it appears the game will be won handily...the Padres still had a good chance to win this game.

People have made comparisons as to what if a Yankee was pitching? I'd have to tip my hat to the other team...how about the flip side? What if it was a Boston pitcher had a perfect game going into the 8th against the Yankees...and Posada was the one to bunt his way on...I think most Yankee fans would be cheering his ingenuity and salute his efforts...

Each time I see Brenley interviewed, the less respect I have for him...

bxny
05-27-01, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
People have made comparisons as to what if a Yankee was pitching? I'd have to tip my hat to the other team...how about the flip side? What if it was a Boston pitcher had a perfect game going into the 8th against the Yankees...and Posada was the one to bunt his way on...I think most Yankee fans would be cheering his ingenuity and salute his efforts...

Now why'd ya have to go and get logical? :)

Honestly, I'd still feel the same way if it were Posada.... , unless of course the Yankees came back and won, then I'd think it was a GREAT play. :D

Damn, now that I think about it, I must be suffering from a case of that testosterone... mono-y-mono stuff. :bad-ass:

SVT Cobra
05-27-01, 03:11 PM
<font color="blue">Reactions of the Players/Managers:</font>

Curt Schilling: "I was a little stunned. I wasn't expecting it. I don't know what the school of thought is."

Matt Williams: "All I know is I wouldn't do it."

Mark Grace: "I can you this much: I don't have the (guts) to do it."

Bruce Bochy: "I'm sure eyebrows were raised. You're in a 2-nothing ball-game. If you can get anybody on base you've got a chance to tie the game. Geez."

Tony Gwynn: "We're all tied for first place and we're trying to win the game and they're up there screaming at him because he dropped a bunt down. So What? Who Cares? We're trying to win the game. They're all hotting like we ain't supposed to try to win a game. That I don't understand. IF the situation is reversed, they're going to try to do the same damn thing. It's a little different when it's 2-nothing. It's a smart play. He dropped a bunt. You can rattle him. He hasn't pitched from the stretch all night long, and you maybe give yourself a better chance. I don't see the problem myself."

Damian Miller (Arizona Catcher): "I don't have any problem with what he did, whatsoever. He was trying to get on base and help his team."

Bob Brenly: "That was chicken----. Ben Davis is a young player. He has a lot to learn about how the game is played. But for a guy like him to put down a bunt in the eighth inning was uncalled for."

Ben Davis: "They were chirping over there. But it's a two-run ballgame. I brought the tying run to the plate. We didn't exactly swing the bats well tonight. I've got to get on any way I can."

Ryan Klesko: "That's stupid...(in response to Brenly) unprofessional. You know what, we don't give a (Bleep). We don't give a (Bleep) what they think. If it's 6-0 or if we're 10 games out of first place, yeah, but we're trying to beat these guys. We've got to play these guys a lot more. We think we're a good enough team to stay in the hunt, and that's part of the game.

<font color="blue">So as you can see, mixed reactions, but I think Tony Gwynn has the right idea. Even Damian Miller (Diamondbacks) didn't have a problem with it.</font>

Danmel
05-27-01, 05:23 PM
Please! If a pitcher for a team in the Al East had a perfect game against the Yanks in the 7th in a 2-0 game, you would be pissed at a Yankee for bunting on? Are the Padres supposed to forfeit a 2-0 game to a team in the same division when they are 1/2 a game out of 1st place? He got on base and brought the tying run to the plate. That is what he is paid to do. If the Yanks surrendered in a situation like that we'd be mightily and rightfully pissed. Schilling isn't ENTITLED to a perfect game-let him earn it-he didn't- case closed!!!

toots
05-27-01, 05:31 PM
Well said Danmel.

Schilling should actually be happy it happened. Looking at our 2 recent experiences with this, the Perfect Game is almost like a last hurrah.

Bub
05-27-01, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Jimbo
Where is it written that if an opposing pitcher has a perfect game going into the 8th inning you somehow OWE it to him to swing away at all costs?In a blowout late in the game, I can see why the opposition would scoff at bunting to break it up, but in a 2-0 game you try to get on base any way you can. I have a feeling that we'll hear an apology from Brenly soon enough. His remarks were totally unjustified. Shame on you, Bob! http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/angry/nono.gif

SVT Cobra
05-27-01, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Bub
Shame on you, Bob! http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/otn/angry/nono.gif Great post!

I completely agree.

SpinWheelz

b-ball-lunachick
05-27-01, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by bxny
Now why'd ya have to go and get logical? :)

Honestly, I'd still feel the same way if it were Posada.... , unless of course the Yankees came back and won, then I'd think it was a GREAT play. :D

Damn, now that I think about it, I must be suffering from a case of that testosterone... mono-y-mono stuff. :bad-ass:


LMAO, bxny!! I hate when I do that!! What's wrong with me, lol?? :D

bxny
05-27-01, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Danmel
Please! If a pitcher for a team in the Al East had a perfect game against the Yanks in the 7th in a 2-0 game, you would be pissed at a Yankee for bunting on? Are the Padres supposed to forfeit a 2-0 game to a team in the same division when they are 1/2 a game out of 1st place? He got on base and brought the tying run to the plate. That is what he is paid to do. If the Yanks surrendered in a situation like that we'd be mightily and rightfully pissed. Schilling isn't ENTITLED to a perfect game-let him earn it-he didn't- case closed!!!

I said ALL that? :eek: Please try reading my post again.

I don't recall saying that I'd be "pissed" at a Yankee if he bunted with one out in the 8th inning of a perfect game (actually I'd be embarrassed)... or that a team should "forfeit" the game....or a team should surrender in that situation....or the pitcher is "ENTITLED" to a perfect game....or the pitcher shouldn't have to earn it...or that it was even bad baseball strategy because it wasn't.

What I did say is I agree with Brenly's assessment that it was CHICKEN................ of Ben Davis to bunt in that situation and I feel he's a PANSY for doing it. And I'd feel the same way if it were a YANKEE. Now, in my opinion, if the same thing had happened to Larsen, Wells, or Cone to spoil their perfecto's there would be PLENTY of Yankee fans bitching and moaning that the opponent spoiled their perfect game with a BUNT with ONE OUT in the 8th inning, and IN MY OPINION they would be justified. I just feel that in that situation the hitter should get a "clean" hit by swinging away. Obviously not everyone feels the same way as me and Ol' Bob. That's OK. :)

I understand that they get paid to win. But can you honestly say that you wouldn't be upset if either Wells or Cone had lost their perfect game to a bunt, by a catcher no less. I can't. Even though it's within the opponents rights I'd still be upset.... just being honest with you. Shame on me. :)

Danmel
05-27-01, 07:50 PM
I disagree completely- a bunt that gets you on base and sets you up to get back in the game is niether Pansy or Chicken ................- it puts a base runner on when you need one-that's all there is to it. This code of honor stuff is nonsense-the Padres ended up getting more hits anyway, bit even so, the batters job is to get on base to bring the tyong run to the plate-he accomplished that. If the Padres lost the division by one game, and hadn't attempted to win this game, they'd deserve to be crucified by their fans.

silverdsl
05-27-01, 08:14 PM
Part of pitching a perfect game besides having overpowering stuff is having the luck to have everything go your way. Schilling just didn't have everything go his way. This is why perfect games are so rare, you never know what might happen to break one up.

I think Tony Gwynn's comments are right on. The Padres are in a race to win their division and every game is important. They shouldn't just lay down and give up because Schilling has been perfect to that point in the game. Besides if Davis had swung instead of bunted perhaps he would have gotten a hit anyway or someone following him could have gotten a hit. Brenley is assuming that Schilling would have gotten Davis out and continued on with the perfect game without that bunt and there's no guarantee that would have happened.

-Deborah

#1PaFan
05-27-01, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by bxny



What I did say is I agree with Brenly's assessment that it was CHICKEN................ of Ben Davis to bunt in that situation and I feel he's a PANSY for doing it. And I'd feel the same way if it were a YANKEE. Now, in my opinion, if the same thing had happened to Larsen, Wells, or Cone to spoil their perfecto's there would be PLENTY of Yankee fans bitching and moaning that the opponent spoiled their perfect game with a BUNT with ONE OUT in the 8th inning, and IN MY OPINION they would be justified. I just feel that in that situation the hitter should get a "clean" hit by swinging away. Obviously not everyone feels the same way as me and Ol' Bob. That's OK. :)



Davis put his team in the position to win the game. It was 2-0 at the time. I don't know what the problem is. :)

YankeePride1967
05-28-01, 08:02 AM
Controversy? Why, the score was 2-0, bunting brought the tying run to the plate. Excellent play by Davis and shame on the crybaby D-Backs for saying a word. Trying to win a game is more important than a perfect game for the other team. What are the Padres supposed to do, intentionally make out? Good grief Brenly should be ashamed of himself.

YankeePride1967
05-28-01, 08:05 AM
If it were a blowout, it would be bush, but San Diego is trying to win a very winnable game, their job isn't to try and please Curt Schilling and the fans in the seats!

SVT Cobra
05-28-01, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket
If it were a blowout, it would be bush, but San Diego is trying to win a very winnable game, their job isn't to try and please Curt Schilling and the fans in the seats! Hey GoRocket, don't worry about the fans in the seats :) I was there and we were all pulling for the Padres! :) That place went nuts when he bunted :) You'd think it was a 600 foot grand slam :p

Spin

SanFrANSKY
05-28-01, 02:22 PM
Down 2-0 in a game with one of the best pitchers in baseball on the mound cruising along with his best stuff ... and in the midst of a tight division no less. The only chickensheet is Bob Brenly for not recognizing the determination shown by Ben Davis to try and get on base, rattle the pitcher, and give his team a chance to win the baseball game.

bxny
05-28-01, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by #1PaFan
Davis put his team in the position to win the game. It was 2-0 at the time. I don't know what the problem is. :)

I guess I have an old school opinion on this topic. As long as that's still allowed there's no problem here. :)

nicky_d
05-28-01, 04:49 PM
Bunting is part of baseball. In fact, if more players would humble themselves and practice to improve their bunting skills, they would be more productive in situations where a bunt is called for.

In this particular situation, a successful bunt base hit might have rankled the pitcher and lead to a run. A 2-0 lead is far from insurmountable. The Pods didn't lie down but tried anything to win the game -- good for them!

Danmel
05-28-01, 04:56 PM
I went to the D-backs forum to see how their fans felt about it and at least 80% of them thought Brenly was out of line-they didn't think there was anything wrong with Davis trying to put his team in a position to win. Brenly owes Davis an apology.

patrick.o
05-28-01, 07:22 PM
I think the whole argument is kind of silly. You know what? Even if it's 20-0 and he bunts, it's ok with me. Why does anyone owe Shilling a perfect game?
No ones gonna no-no my team, not if I can help it. Can't defend a bunt? Then you ain't so perfect, are you?

bamtino
05-29-01, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick


Exactly...the NL West has the tightest division race going, and despite whether it's May or September, San Diego is down one game to this team and it's looking like every game can make a difference...the last place team in this division is only 2 games out...Davis is being paid by San Diego to get on base any way he can, and that's what he should have done...

I could maybe understand the debate a little more if San Diego was down 7-0, but they weren't, it was only 2-0...even then, this "earning your way on" stuff is crap...I think that's what Davis did -- he bunted for a base hit...if he reached on an error (unearned) that would be okay because it was Arizona's mistake? What does any player on San Diego owe Arizona in preserving them a stake in baseball history?

As for the argument that it's like a putting on a suicide squeeze when you're up 10-0, I don't see that as a comparable analogy, because it's more like rubbing it in the other team's face, when it appears the game will be won handily...the Padres still had a good chance to win this game.

People have made comparisons as to what if a Yankee was pitching? I'd have to tip my hat to the other team...how about the flip side? What if it was a Boston pitcher had a perfect game going into the 8th against the Yankees...and Posada was the one to bunt his way on...I think most Yankee fans would be cheering his ingenuity and salute his efforts...

Each time I see Brenley interviewed, the less respect I have for him...

luna,

I couldn't have said it any better myself. I agree with all of your points. I think that Arizona should GET OVER IT!

Kat

YankeePride1967
05-30-01, 05:33 AM
I was listening to Mike and the Mad Dog Tuesday and they were saying that when Nolan Ryan had a no-hitter going in the 7th inning, he'd have the corners move in to guard against the bunt.

KENMonteSS86
05-30-01, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
Each time I see Brenley interviewed, the less respect I have for him...

You and me both...and I really respected Bob Brenly.

Bottom line, it's 2-0...when you're one game back, every game counts. Your job is to get on base and win...NOT get on base by swinging away and win....not give any pitcher a fair shot at getting his perfect game...the object is to JUST WIN, BABY (in the immortal words of Al Davis....)

I think Brenly should take his chickens**t attitude, turn that SOB sideways, and stick it straight up his candy ass!!!! (in the immortal words of "the Rock"...) Politically correct unwritten rule bulls**t just pisses me the f**k off--and I don't care what anybody thinks!!!!!

YOUR JOB IS TO WIN....WIN AT ANY COST (as long as it's legal according to official rules--NOT "GENTLEMEN BULLS**T RULES!!!)

Vince Lombardi would be turning over in his grave if he heard this discussion--winning isn't everything, it's the ONLY thing!!!

b-ball-lunachick
05-30-01, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by bamtino


luna,

I couldn't have said it any better myself. I agree with all of your points. I think that Arizona should GET OVER IT!

Kat


Thanks Kat!! :)

and KenMonte -- LOL...I think Brenley should apologize for that remark...talk about no class, huh?

Dynasty2000
05-30-01, 11:11 AM
Oh please!!!! Give me a friking break---I am so tired of all these ridiculous un-written rules. The ONLY rule in my book is to get a win for my team at ANY cost. You're damn right I would have bunted my way on too if a pitcher was throwing a perfect game against my team. If the game was so perfect then why couldn't they defend against a bunt??

I have a scenerio for all of you who think that this guy bunting was chickensh*t:

PEDRO MARTINEZ is pitching a perfect game against the Yankees going into the 8th inning....Posada bunts his way on and breaks up the Perfect game----I don't know about the rest of you but I would be ECSTATIC. Even if we lose, I would be ecstatic...you have to do what you gotta do in order to win or atleast lose with a little bit of dignity knowing that at least you tried to get something going for your team.

caliyanksfan
06-02-01, 11:49 AM
<font color="blue">wow, i didn't know we could still use different colors on this forum.</font>
<font color="yellow">cool!</font>
<font color="green">thanks, spinwheels</font>

btw, at first i was appalled by the bunt. i do believe in unwritten rules and the like. but after reading all of your opinions, i'm starting to change my mind. a team has to do whatever it takes to win.

~~jl

allybear
06-02-01, 07:27 PM
I believe in certain unwritten rules - but if every announcer insists on breaking my favorite, that you don't talk about a no-hitter/perfecto while it's going on - why shouldn't he bunt? A hit is a hit is a hit, and if it was 9-0, then it might be silly, but 2-0 is still a winnable game, and as cool as it would have been for Schilling to get the perfecto, the other team shouldn't be expected to give it to him, especially when there is a division race going on.

Plus...Schilling gave up 2 hits after that, so not for nothing, I think it just wasn't meant to be. If that was the only hit against him, well, maybe I could see being peeved, but there were two more and they weren't bunts!

YankeePride1967
06-02-01, 08:22 PM
Like Tim McCarver asked Brenly on FOX today if he had hit a grounder to the shortstop and he bobbled it, should he slow up to give the shortstop time to recover?

satchel
06-04-01, 09:57 AM
Well? what did Brenly say?

#1PaFan
06-04-01, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by satchel


Well? what did Brenly say?



Yeah, really.

Wow, here's a first: WTG McCarver. :)

Dynasty2000
06-08-01, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket
Like Tim McCarver asked Brenly on FOX today if he had hit a grounder to the shortstop and he bobbled it, should he slow up to give the shortstop time to recover?

Tim McCarver didn't say that---I could have sworn that he was just quoting Ben Davis. He told Brenly---"Ben Davis brought up the point that if he grounds to short and the shortstop bobbles it, should he slow down to preserve the perfect game?"

Brenly then said...something to the effect of "Well you know alot of things could be said but I'm from the old school and the un-written rules say that you don't break up a no-hitter with a bunt" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH......he really didn't have anything to say in regard to the comment.

patrick.o
06-08-01, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Dynasty2000
Brenly then said...something to the effect of "Well you know alot of things could be said but I'm from the old school and the un-written rules say that you don't break up a no-hitter with a bunt" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH
Isn't "old school" Brenly in favor of interleague play?