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Circle Change
09-18-05, 01:47 AM
Matched with the utter mastery on the mound, I believed that the run support Pedro Martinez received from the Red Sox during his historically dominant 2000 season was by far the most pathetic thing I'd ever seen, but the 2005 Houston Astros have taken it to another level and have proven why "Wins" for pitchers have absolutely no purpose in the game.

Rocket's documented "Losses" and "No-Decisions" this season:

04/13: 7.0 IP, 0 ER @ Mets (ND)
04/18: 7.0 IP, 0 ER vs. Braves (ND)
04/23: 7.0 IP, 0 ER @ Cards (ND)
04/29: 7.0 IP, 3 ER vs. Cubs (L)
05/04: 7.0 IP, 2 ER vs. Pirates (ND)
05/19: 6.0 IP, 2 ER vs. D'backs (L)
05/24: 5.0 IP, 0 ER @ Cubs (ND)
05/30: 8.0 IP, 2 ER vs. Reds (L)
06/11: 7.0 IP, 1 ER vs. Blue Jays (ND)
06/28: 7.0 IP, 1 ER vs. Rockies (ND)
07/08: 7.0 IP, 2 ER vs. Dodgers (ND)
07/17: 7.0 IP, 1 ER vs. Cards (L)
08/13: 8.0 IP, 0 ER vs. Pirates (ND)
08/23: 8.0 IP, 2 ER @ Padres (L)
08/28: 6.0 IP, 0 ER @ Dodgers (ND)
09/03: 5.0 IP, 2 ER vs. Cards (ND)

He should be going for 30 wins over the last few weeks of the regular season, yet he's sitting at 12-7 with his 1.77 ERA at 43 years old and probably won't even finish 2nd in the Cy Young voting this year. Absolutely atrocious.

For all the incredibly bulky and astounding numbers Clemens has put up over his brilliant career, the one thing that had always made me somewhat apprehensive on calling him the greatest pitcher of all-time was that he didn't quite have that utter and complete peak dominance in baseball history like a Pedro or Maddux, and for that reason, I never thought him at his best to be better than either of them at their respective peaks and maybe he still isn't, but this season he's has given me what I had wanted when I least expected it and has won me over.

Congrats to The Rocket on a truly unbelievable season and for earning every penny of the $18 million I had so strongly stated you didn't deserve to be paid.

Now, SHOULD Clemens be awarded the NL Cy Young?

HidekiIrabu
09-18-05, 01:50 AM
I think that winning it last year when Johnson deserved it will make up for Carpenter winning it this year when he deserves it

Circle Change
09-18-05, 01:54 AM
I think that winning it last year when Johnson deserved it will make up for Carpenter winning it this year when he deserves it

I personally believe that Clemens winning it last season over Johnson was making up for a nice screw job in the 1990 AL Cy voting when Bob Welch, with a win total of 27, won it over Clemens with a 2.95 ERA despite The Rocket's 21 victories and 1.93 mark. That was also the same season Dennis Eckersley posted a 0.61 ERA as the A's closer.

Circle Change
09-18-05, 02:01 AM
Another little Quick Fact:

By leading the league in Adjusted ERA+ for the eighth time in his career, Clemens is just one season shy of tying Lefty Grove's all-time mark of leading the league in ERA+ nine times. Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux, Walter Johnson, Randy Johnson and Christy Mathewson all led the league in Adjusted ERA+ five times.

cubswin
09-18-05, 02:10 AM
I'll be honest, you may have changed my mind here. I was fine with Clemens winningn last year, and would have said Carpenter this year. While I think W/L is overrated, I also do believe that a starter's job is to win -- and sometimes the other stats can become overrated.

Seeing that list of NDs and losses is pretty amazing, though... (Has he really given up no more than 3 ER in any loss or no-decision?!)

Circle Change
09-18-05, 02:18 AM
I'll be honest, you may have changed my mind here. I was fine with Clemens winningn last year, and would have said Carpenter this year. While I think W/L is overrated, I also do believe that a starter's job is to win -- and sometimes the other stats can become overrated.

Seeing that list of NDs and losses is pretty amazing, though... (Has he really given up no more than 3 ER in any loss or no-decision?!)

No, unfortunately that's not the case. If it were, Clemens would be looking at an ERA under 1, most likely. He's given up more than 3 ER on three occasions this season. For quite a while, Clemens was actually on pace to break Pedro's 2000 ERA+, but now that his raw ERA is a few points above Martinez's 1.74 and in the NL at that, I doubt he's going to pull it off. Even so, the other qualitative numbers aren't even approaching "close", so Petey's season is safe until Johan Santana can finally put it all together. (I had to :D). Still, Clemens is 15 YEARS OLDER than Pedro was in 2000.

NYYPride4Life
09-18-05, 02:24 AM
He's had a Great year but Carpenter should win it.

Bob Saccomano
09-18-05, 03:34 AM
He's had a Great year but Carpenter should win it.

Agreed. It's hard for me, because I love both those guys, but Carpenter has just been a warrior this year. I have mad respect for Clemens, and if he'd ended up with a sub 1.50 ERA at age 43, he would've been like Cy Young come again. However, he's been getting roughed up recently, and he hasn't won against Carpenter (I don't believe). Carp is second in ERA, first in IP, tied for first in wins, tied for first in K's and has been great in just about every category. Clemens is Carpenter's hero, and they pitched together in Toronto. I believe Carpenter asked Clemens for his autograph this year, because he grew up idolizing Clemens. It would be fitting that Clemens' admirer and protege get the award this year. Yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow for Clemens, but he already has 8 of 'em, so I won't be crying a river over it either ;).

Random
09-18-05, 07:21 AM
I personally believe that Clemens winning it last season over Johnson was making up for a nice screw job in the 1990 AL Cy voting when Bob Welch, with a win total of 27, won it over Clemens with a 2.95 ERA despite The Rocket's 21 victories and 1.93 mark. That was also the same season Dennis Eckersley posted a 0.61 ERA as the A's closer.

But, I think they already made up for 1990 when Clemens won it in 1997, and RJ deserved it. So, now RJ deserved it twice in years in which Clemens won it.

So, no, I don't mind if Carpenter wins it instead.

Random
09-18-05, 07:24 AM
Yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow for Clemens, but he already has 8 of 'em, so I won't be crying a river over it either ;).

Actually, he has "only" seven.

RJ has five. So, if they got it right last year, they'd be tied with 6. But, if they got it right last year, I would say Clemens deserves it this year, so it would be back to 7-6.

yankeebot
09-18-05, 07:36 AM
This is a hard one. Since this award can be based on numbers only and no intangibles, I can't even fall back on some personal like or dis-like. How about a tie? It is not unprecedented as Mike Cuellar and Denny McClain shared the award in 1969.

Sam18
09-18-05, 11:51 AM
He should win it. He has a sub 2 ERA at age 43!!

chanman7483
09-18-05, 12:09 PM
If you put someone WITH THOSE NUMBERS on the Yanks, he would undoubtably be pushing 30 wins.... and zero losses, MAYBE??? :eek:

Mystic Merlyn
09-18-05, 12:11 PM
If you put someone WITH THOSE NUMBERS on the Yanks, he would undoubtably be pushing 30 wins.... and zero losses, MAYBE??? :eek:

No way. If Clemens was in the AL East his ERA would be at least a run higher.

EDIT-Well, sure if they had THOSE numbers, but he wouldn't.

chanman7483
09-18-05, 12:13 PM
No way. If Clemens was in the AL East his ERA would be at least a run higher.

EDIT-Well, sure if they had THOSE numbers, but he wouldn't.

That's why I said "with those numbers" and really emphasized it.

Mystic, please look up the word "hypothetical" ;) I can dream can't I? :o

yanksphan
09-18-05, 12:22 PM
If RJ didn't get it last year based soley on W-L record, than the same standards should be held for Clemens this year.

Mattpat11
09-18-05, 12:54 PM
Nope. Johnson doesn't win it in 04, Clemens cant win it in 05

Soriambi
09-18-05, 02:01 PM
He would be my vote, though I would have absolutely no problem with Carpenter winning, as Carpenter has been lights out.

Clemens' 1.77 ERA would be the fourth lowest in a non-strike season since Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in 1968. (Maddux, 1.63 in 1995, Gooden, 1.53 in 1985, Seaver, 1.76 in 1971, with Maddux's 1994 and Ryan's 1981 being excluded because they were strike years.)

The Rocket also has a .97 WHIP, and has Ked 7.9 per 9 innings, and has thrown exactly five non-quality starts, two of which were five inning performances where he gave up zero and two runs in them. He has given up over three runs in a game only three times all year.

Carpenter has a similar WHIP at .99, but his ERA is much higher, at around 2.30. He, however, only has three non-quality starts, and has thrown under six innings only once.

To be honest, every time I look at these guys my opinion changes on which should be the Cy Young. Carpenter throws more innings, and has been just spectacular, but Clemens has that microscopic ERA. Like I said, I think that both guys have an excellent case, and I wouldn't be surprised or think that it was a joke if either won it.

Dontrelle Willis, on the other hand, I would have a problem with, if he won it, as he hasn't been nearly as good as those two, though he's had a great year as well, clearly.

Circle Change
09-18-05, 03:25 PM
If RJ didn't get it last year based soley on W-L record, than the same standards should be held for Clemens this year.

But how does that help anything? It just continues an atrocious cycle of Cy Young voting with seemingly no end in sight. At what point do they stop with all the nonsense and get it right?


But, I think they already made up for 1990 when Clemens won it in 1997, and RJ deserved it. So, now RJ deserved it twice in years in which Clemens won it.

So, no, I don't mind if Carpenter wins it instead.

How did Johnson deserve the '97 Cy over Rocket? I just don't see it.

Big Unit

30 GS
213.0 IP
5 CG
2.28 ERA
198 ERA+
85.9 VORP
1.05 WHIP
77 BB
291 K
3.78 K/BB
12.30 K/9

Rocket

34 GS
264.0 IP
9 CG
2.05 ERA
226 ERA+
115.8 VORP
1.03 WHIP
68 BB
292 K
4.29 K/BB
9.95 K/9

Mattpat11
09-18-05, 03:48 PM
But how does that help anything? It just continues an atrocious cycle of Cy Young voting with seemingly no end in sight. At what point do they stop with all the nonsense and get it right?
I just dont think you can ................ one guy out of the award one year and then ignore that line of thinking the following year, involving one of the same principles. Whether or not it is (and it probably isnt) it will come off as a Clemens bias. Clemens should only win if you can retroactively give Johnson the 04 award.

Galapagos
09-18-05, 03:50 PM
I just dont think you can ................ one guy out of the award one year and then ignore that line of thinking the following year, involving one of the same principles. Whether or not it is (and it probably isnt) it will come off as a Clemens bias. Clemens should only win if you can retroactively give Johnson the 04 award.

This is absurd. So, because we can't go back in time, we have to give the CY to the wrong guy again?

Mattpat11
09-18-05, 03:51 PM
This is absurd. So, because we can't go back in time, we have to give the CY to the wrong guy again? The standards been set. You need to be able to win to be the Cy Young. Its not fair to everyone else to drop that at of the blue for Roger Clemens

Circle Change
09-18-05, 03:56 PM
The standards been set. You need to be able to win to be the Cy Young. Its not fair to everyone else to drop that at of the blue for Roger Clemens

We aren't dropping it out of the blue for CLEMENS, but rather for the season he's had. If he wasn't the best pitcher in baseball this season, I wouldn't be campaigning him for the Cy Young Award. He's having one of the most dominant seasons in baseball history and needs to be fittingly commended as the best pitcher in the National League.

Little Big Sheff
09-18-05, 07:09 PM
I personally believe that Clemens winning it last season over Johnson was making up for a nice screw job in the 1990 AL Cy voting when Bob Welch, with a win total of 27, won it over Clemens with a 2.95 ERA despite The Rocket's 21 victories and 1.93 mark. That was also the same season Dennis Eckersley posted a 0.61 ERA as the A's closer.

I thought 2001 was the make-up.
2004 was just a double make-up, just in case.

Little Big Sheff
09-18-05, 07:11 PM
Actually, he has "only" seven.

RJ has five. So, if they got it right last year, they'd be tied with 6. But, if they got it right last year, I would say Clemens deserves it this year, so it would be back to 7-6.

Are you saying RJ doesn't have a shot this year?

Random
09-18-05, 08:41 PM
Are you saying RJ doesn't have a shot this year?

Sure, he has a shot, if he throws three perfect games in his last three starts!

Random
09-18-05, 08:46 PM
How did Johnson deserve the '97 Cy over Rocket? I just don't see it.



It didn't really bother me that Clemens won that year (well, okay a little, but that's b/c I don't like Clemens, and Randy is my favorite player). It did really bother me that the voting wasn't even close. It also bothered me that Randy got shafted a couple times in the mid 90s. No one year was clear cut, but each year was a bit of a snub. I think Randy finished second three times that he could have reasonably won.

And in 1997 Randy would have won, except for a stupid move on his part. After a bad pitch, he angrily barehanded the return throw from the catcher, and ended up hurting his hand. He missed four or five starts, and with that, the Cy Young award.

Random
09-18-05, 08:48 PM
I guess my feeling is that if Roger had never won one, maybe he should get it this year. But that's obviously not the case.

He got lucky a few years (in terms of voting, not in terms of his pitching), so now it's his turn to be unlucky.

pedromartinezfan
09-18-05, 08:59 PM
Randy Johnson didn't deserve the Cy Young in 1997 no matter what. Roger Clemens had a top 10, probably top 5, pitching season that year.

Circle Change
09-19-05, 01:08 PM
Okay, now I'm really beginning to get worried. "The standards have been set"? "It's Clemens' turn to get unlucky"? "He didn't deserve some of his previous CY's"

What does any of that have to do with Clemens being the best pitcher in baseball this season with a microscopic ERA under 2?! Listen (read), if it was Chris Carpenter who was 12-7 with a 1.77 ERA and Clemens who had 21 wins, I'd be campaigning for Carpenter. So yes, it's about Clemens, but that isn't the reason he should be the NL Cy. He's simply been the best pitcher. We can't go back and change history, the screw ups are the screw ups and nothing can be done to change them. However, it's never too late to start getting it right.

rkh5donkey
09-19-05, 01:41 PM
Okay, now I'm really beginning to get worried. "The standards have been set"? "It's Clemens' turn to get unlucky"? "He didn't deserve some of his previous CY's"

What does any of that have to do with Clemens being the best pitcher in baseball this season with a microscopic ERA under 2?! Listen (read), if it was Chris Carpenter who was 12-7 with a 1.77 ERA and Clemens who had 21 wins, I'd be campaigning for Carpenter. So yes, it's about Clemens, but that isn't the reason he should be the NL Cy. He's simply been the best pitcher. We can't go back and change history, the screw ups are the screw ups and nothing can be done to change them. However, it's never too late to start getting it right.

I couldn't agree more.

rkh5donkey
09-19-05, 09:17 PM
Dang. Tonight ain't gonna help his case.
5.2 IP 11 H 6 R 4 ER 1 BB 5 K 1 HR