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NJASDJDH
11-03-04, 03:07 PM
First

Erstad +8
Delgado +3
Palmeiro -1

Second

Booone +9
Hudson +2
Bellhorn +1

Third

A-Rod +13
Chavez +5
Randa +4

LF

Crawford +13
Bigbie +7
Lee +3

CF

Hunter +11
Rowand +11
Winn +10
(Kotsay +9)
(Wells +7)
(Damon +6)

RF

Dye +6
Cruz Jr. +3
Gerut +1

C (min 90 games)

D. Miller +3
Varitek +3
Blanco +3
D. Wilson +3

These aren't weighted with past performance or projected over "X" games, just the raw 2004 totals.

WiffleWOOD
11-03-04, 03:13 PM
thanks, NJ. keep em coming as you get them..

interesting to see ARod/Chavez.

Hudson is lower than i'd have guessed..

SheffMVP11
11-03-04, 03:13 PM
Wow, Boone was a lot better than Hudson... where'd you find these?

Irony Of It All
11-03-04, 03:17 PM
Thanks NJ.

NJASDJDH
11-03-04, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by SheffMVP11
Wow, Boone was a lot better than Hudson... where'd you find these?

Courtesy of MGL, he hasn't published the full thing yet, but will sometimes let you know some of the data if you ask.

I'll try and get some more.

SheffMVP11
11-03-04, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by NJASDJDH


Courtesy of MGL, he hasn't published the full thing yet, but will sometimes let you know some of the data if you ask.

I'll try and get some more.

Awesome, thanks. What's the link for MGL?

Irony Of It All
11-03-04, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by SheffMVP11


Awesome, thanks. What's the link for MGL?

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/author/mitchellichtman/

Little Big Sheff
11-03-04, 07:18 PM
I would be very interested in Beltran's if you can have it.
I think he is a bit overrated defensively.

NJASDJDH
11-04-04, 12:32 AM
A. Jones was -2 this year. No word on Beltran yet.

Here are the top 3 at each NL position:

First

Overbay +5
Casey +4
Helton +3

Second

Loretta +6
Kent +5
Castillo +4

SS

A-Gon (FLO) +19
J. Wilson +7
Cintron (AZ) +4

Third

Castilla +16
Rolen +14
Alfonzo/Beltre +12

LF

Jenkins +17
Bay +8
Alou +4

CF

Payton +16
Patterson +15
Redman +8

RF

Hidalgo +15
Giles +10
Drew +7

Catcher (min 89 "games")

Schneider +14
Matheny +5
Moeller +4

It seems these numbers were given a minimum number of games played, 110 for regular positions and 89 for catcher, and then extrapolated to 150 games. This leads me to believe that the difficulty in getting Beltran's may be due to his split time. In addition, if this was the case with the AL numbers as well, A-Rod rates better than I thought he did.

Irony Of It All
11-04-04, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by NJASDJDH
A. Jones was -2 this year. No word on Beltran yet.

Thanks once again.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-05-04, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by NJASDJDH
A. Jones was -2 this year. No word on Beltran yet.


The fact that Jones was -2 really surprises me....Actually baffles me....Also the fact that A-Rod was +13 and Chavez only +5 is even more confusing. NJASDJDH are you sure these are the final numbers from MGL because they don't seem to make sense to me.... :confused:

PS: If you could I would be really interested to see Matsui's and Sheffield's UZR...Thanks....

Irony Of It All
11-05-04, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by JavyVazquezIsSick

Also the fact that A-Rod was +13 and Chavez only +5 is even more confusing. NJASDJDH are you sure these are the final numbers from MGL because they don't seem to make sense to me.... :confused:



I think he mentioned somewhere that these are the raw numbers not projected for 162 games.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-05-04, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All


I think he mentioned somewhere that these are the raw numbers not projected for 162 games.

Meaning what?

WiffleWOOD
11-05-04, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by JavyVazquezIsSick


Meaning what?

meaning that they aren't adjusted for the season...so Chavez's 5 is only for the number of games he played in, but he'd be projected higher if it was adjusted for a full schedule.

SheffMVP11
11-16-04, 08:54 PM
Any updates on the UZR rankings for 2004? Any idea when the full list will be posted somewhere?

NJASDJDH
11-17-04, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by SheffMVP11
Any updates on the UZR rankings for 2004? Any idea when the full list will be posted somewhere?

No and no.

NJASDJDH
11-17-04, 12:18 PM
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/discussion/24513/

Posted by mgl on November 16, 2004 at 11:08 PM (#969669)
Yes, 04 UZR has been completely recalculated, now that I have all the data.

All players in each league's UZR always sums to zero, like lwts, so even if this were a banner year for a particular position, we wouldn't know it from looking at the UZR's. Jeter is indeed at zero this year, but Guzman is at -6, a little better than his usual sucky self. The best in the AL were Valentin, Tejada, Lugo, Reese (in limited play), and Crosby. The absolute worst were Young and Berroa. Berroa was good last year. Ah, year to year fluctuations! Young was a bad fielding second baseman converted to SS. Brilliant move by the Rangers!

Ramon Vazquez had a nice MLE this year. It was +3 lwts runs per 150, or an OPS+ of 102.

AngelAstro
11-18-04, 08:04 PM
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/discussion/24539/

Scroll down to post 52 for the best and worst fielders at each position for 2004.

Irony Of It All
11-18-04, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by AngelAstro
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/primer/discussion/24539/

Scroll down to post 52 for the best and worst fielders at each position for 2004.

Thanks

Did you see Griffey's? :scared:

Irony Of It All
11-18-04, 08:10 PM
Olerud: -11
Cairo: +20 (fluke year?)
A-Rod: +17
Jeter: 0
Matsui: -11
Bernie: -44
Sheff: -11
Posada: -4

Oh, and this just adds to my desire to acquire Jay Payton as a backup OF (+34).

AngelAstro
11-18-04, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All
Thanks

Did you see Griffey's? :scared:
I was more worried about Bernie's!!!

WiffleWOOD
11-18-04, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by AngelAstro

I was more worried about Bernie's!!!

dear lord, bernie's is absolutely horrifying.

cairo = +20
soriano = -15


think we have something to work on?
bernie = -44
matsui = -11
sheff= -11
jeter = 0
posada= -4


i know judging solely based on UZR is flawed, but man, that OF and up-the-middle defense is just atrocious. atrocious.

Irony Of It All
11-18-04, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by WiffleWOOD
think we have something to work on?
bernie = -44
matsui = -11
sheff= -11
i know judging solely based on UZR is flawed, but man, that OF and up-the-middle defense is just atrocious. atrocious.

Improving our defense should be priority #1, especially with the "quality" pitching that's available this year.

BTW, for anyone that's interested Vlad had a UZR of -1 (0 in arm).
Just scroll down to #59.

AngelAstro
11-18-04, 08:41 PM
Remember that the corner outfielders primary duties are offense. Of course, it would be nice if they could field proficiently, but I wouldn't trade Matsui or Sheffield for many of those +UZR corner outfielders, except possibly Jason Bay or Carl Crawford (of course Crawford should probably be a CFer). Strangely, I just noticed that the NL RFers were not listed.

JeffWeaverFan
11-18-04, 09:28 PM
Can anybody explain to me how the hell Carlos Delgado has a +12 UZR? This guy is not a good defensive first baseman.

SheffMVP11
11-18-04, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Can anybody explain to me how the hell Carlos Delgado has a +12 UZR? This guy is not a good defensive first baseman.

Finley -28? Edmonds -24?

:confused:

BobbyMurcerFan
11-21-04, 11:42 PM
Tino +5. Wonder what Giambi's was, or has been?

Rich
11-22-04, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Tino +5. Wonder what Giambi's was, or has been?

2000-2003: -3

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

NJASDJDH
11-22-04, 12:46 PM
MGL will not be releasing full UZR this year due to his commitment to an ML team.

Rich
11-22-04, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by NJASDJDH
MGL will not be releasing full UZR this year due to his commitment to an ML team.

I'm only pissed that the team is in all probablility is not the Yankees, and quite possibly is the Sox.

Irony Of It All
11-22-04, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Rich


I'm only pissed that the team is in all probablility is not the Yankees, and quite possibly is the Sox.

Same here.

Will tangotiger be able to put it out?

BobbyMurcerFan
11-27-04, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by Rich
2000-2003: -3

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html Thanks Rich. Two things stood out.

1) Helton's +20. He is what I WISH we had at 1B.

2) Tony Clark and J.T. Snow at -5. I'm sorry, but these guys are better 1B's than Giambi; Snow by qutie a wide margin.

Rich
11-27-04, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Thanks Rich. Two things stood out.

1) Helton's +20. He is what I WISH we had at 1B.

2) Tony Clark and J.T. Snow at -5. I'm sorry, but these guys are better 1B's than Giambi; Snow by qutie a wide margin.

Using UZR to compare players in different leagues is problematic. Giambi is not a bad 1Bman when healthy. The weakness in his game is that he can't throw.

SheffMVP11
11-27-04, 12:19 PM
So UZR - heralded by sabermetricians as the best way to judge a player's defensive ability - isn't even gonna be released anywhere in its entirety?

BobbyMurcerFan
11-27-04, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Rich
Using UZR to compare players in different leagues is problematic. Giambi is not a bad 1Bman when healthy. The weakness in his game is that he can't throw. He also has poor range, when compared to someone like Snow.

It's interesting his arm is so bad b/c he came up as a 3B, so I bet it's pretty strong and reasonably accurate. I guess the runner going to second throws him off. IDK.

nnysiny
11-28-04, 06:41 PM
this UZR thing looks very inaccurate

WiffleWOOD
11-28-04, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by nnysiny
this UZR thing looks very inaccurate

thanks

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-28-04, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by NJASDJDH
MGL will not be releasing full UZR this year due to his commitment to an ML team.

What team?

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-28-04, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Rich


I'm only pissed that the team is in all probablility is not the Yankees, and quite possibly is the Sox.

I'd guess Oakland, with him looking to improve defense and I think its probably the lowest valued talent on the market....

RhodeyYankee2638
11-29-04, 06:55 AM
Wow, Finley and Edmonds rank among the worst fielders in the NL??? I thought Michael Young had pretty good defense. These numbers are enlightening (or tragically flawed)

Pomp
11-29-04, 08:45 AM
I'm really surprised about Olerud (-11) and Tony Clark (-5). All you hear about is how good defensively both of these guys are....are those claims false??

Prickly Pete
11-29-04, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Pomp
I'm really surprised about Olerud (-11) and Tony Clark (-5). All you hear about is how good defensively both of these guys are....are those claims false??

I don't know with regards to those two players in particular, but with regard to defensive statistics in general, you have to be very careful about using any one of them alone to get a true measurement of a player's ability.

UZR, for example, mainly measures range, which is extremely important but not everything when it comes to defense.

And secondly -- especially with UZR -- you also have to be careful about focusing on the results from any one particular year. There are wild fluctuations for many players' UZR's from year to year. I've never seen a good explanation for that, but in most cases it's unlikely to result from a wild fluctuation in actual performance and skill.

Using three-year averages is a lot safer.

NJASDJDH
11-29-04, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by JavyVazquezIsSick


I'd guess Oakland, with him looking to improve defense and I think its probably the lowest valued talent on the market....

Pretty sure it's not Oakland, though, apparently the system that Oakland uses is very similar to UZR.

JeffWeaverFan
11-29-04, 03:50 PM
I'm very curious to know what Andruw Jones' UZR is.

NJASDJDH
11-29-04, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by JavyVazquezIsSick


What team?

Don't know, other than that it's not the Yankees or the Athletics.

Prickly Pete
11-29-04, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I'm very curious to know what Andruw Jones' UZR is.

It was +15 from 2000-2003, but I haven't seen a 2004 number on him.

Edit: Sorry. NJASDJDH had it as -2 for 2004 in this very thread.

WiffleWOOD
11-29-04, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
I'm very curious to know what Andruw Jones' UZR is.

and beltran's (or do we know that already? i'm so lazy i won't even scan this thread)

NJASDJDH
11-29-04, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
Wow, Finley and Edmonds rank among the worst fielders in the NL??? I thought Michael Young had pretty good defense. These numbers are enlightening (or tragically flawed)

Well, Young was regarded as a bad defensive 2B for some time by UZR and then the move to SS only amplified his shortcomings. He tends to do well in systems less advanced than UZR though because he gets, or at least used to as a 2B, tons of opportunities due to the lack of Ks from Texas pitchers.

Finley has been among the worst for some time and Edmonds' performance has fluctuated, IIRC.

Remember, it is possible to have a bad or good defensive year, just as it is possible to do so on offense.

JeffWeaverFan
11-29-04, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by WiffleWOOD


and beltran's (or do we know that already? i'm so lazy i won't even scan this thread)
Yeah, and Beltran's. We don't know his either.


Originally posted by Prickly Pete


It was +15 from 2000-2003, but I haven't seen a 2004 number on him.
Yeah, and Beltran's was a +4 in that same period of time. I have a feeling that Jones' was worse than a +15 last season though.

Prickly Pete
11-29-04, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan
Yeah, and Beltran's was a +4 in that same period of time. I have a feeling that Jones' was worse than a +15 last season though.

Right. See my edited post above.

JeffWeaverFan
11-29-04, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Prickly Pete


Right. See my edited post above.
-2 is worse than I would have expected. I believe this will continue to decline as long as he continues to not stay in shape...

WiffleWOOD
11-29-04, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

-2 is worse than I would have expected. I believe this will continue to decline as long as he continues to not stay in shape...

i still would like to see it compared to beltran.

and either way, it's nowhere near bernie's -44.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-29-04, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by WiffleWOOD

nowhere near bernie's -44.

That number doesn't get any less jaw dropping everytime I see it....

WiffleWOOD
11-30-04, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by JavyVazquezIsSick


What team?


http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/MGL

JeffWeaverFan
11-30-04, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by WiffleWOOD



http://digamma.net/btfwiki/index.php/MGL
I wish he was going to the Yankees...

Rich
11-30-04, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

I wish he was going to the Yankees...

George doesn't get it.

iamherring
12-01-04, 09:26 AM
Am I right in thinking that catchers and 1Bmen especially are not measured well by UZR? I mean, I thought Clark's range was better than this indicates, but most of the value I see in him is his reach catching throws... that's not factored in, right?

Same with catchers, I guess. Po was at -2 or so, which would look a lot better if he framed pitches or handled the staff better...

JeffWeaverFan
12-04-04, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by iamherring
Am I right in thinking that catchers and 1Bmen especially are not measured well by UZR? I mean, I thought Clark's range was better than this indicates, but most of the value I see in him is his reach catching throws... that's not factored in, right?

Same with catchers, I guess. Po was at -2 or so, which would look a lot better if he framed pitches or handled the staff better...
I am also curious about this. Anybody know?

SoCal Pinstriper
12-06-04, 04:14 PM
Thank you for posting these. This is interesting stuff. I've always been interested in a way to quantify defense.