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Ansky39
04-07-01, 08:10 PM
HELLuva coach we got... :rolleyes:

http://www.nypost.com/04062001/sports/knicks/25351.htm

JEFF AT ODDS WITH GOD SQUAD
Friday,April 6,2001

By MARC BERMAN


Jeff Van Gundy tried to defuse a potential explosive situation with Allan Houston and Charlie Ward when he brought them into his office yesterday to warn them about remarks he made in an upcoming magazine story in which he said he is opposed to religion being thrust into the workplace.
Van Gundy said in the upcoming issue of New York magazine that too much locker-room access is granted to the club's designated preacher, Pastor John Love, and said it serves as a distraction. Van Gundy also said post-game prayer among opponents is bad for the league.

Van Gundy said God and golf are the two worst things to happen in the NBA.

"And I don't mean that in a derogatory way to God," Van Gundy told New York. "I'll tell you what I do have a problem with; we have it in our situation here. We let a preacher into our locker room. Spends as much time as he wants with our players before games. Now, do people in offices have preachers coming into their place of business, interrupting their work? No. They have to do it before and after work. They don't get to do it during work.

"That's the problem I have. As a team and an organization, you've got to try to minimize those distractions. It used to be alcohol and women more. I think we've given this guy, this pastor, too much freedom and I think the interaction between people before games, opposing sides, the fraternization is wrong for the league. It's wrong for competition. Everybody's hugging before games. Praying together."

Houston and Ward still seemed stunned by the remarks. When asked by The Post yesterday what would happen if Van Gundy tried to limit the pastor's presence in the locker room, Ward said:

"When it comes to my faith in Jesus Christ and someone [tries] to take it away, that's worth fighting for. Other things in life aren't worth fighting for. When it comes to that, I'll fight it to the end."

Ward, Houston and Mark Jackson, who also met with Van Gundy, are devout Christians and are joined by Kurt Thomas for a pre-game chapel service, held in a room near the locker-room area.

"He can't change chapel, Houston said sternly. "He can't change it."

Houston said Van Gundy was concerned that he and Ward would take his comments personally.

"He wanted to make us aware it's nothing against us," Houston said. "And it was no offense toward us. He has a right to his opinion. We don't have to agree with it. He made us aware that it wasn't directed at us."

Ward said his pre-game preparation is hardly hurt by the chapel.

"We could do things really distracting like talking to women before games," Ward said. "It doesn't distract us from our goal playing for him or him coaching us."

Houston said, "That's his feeling. I disagree obviously. That's his opinion. He has to deal with his relationship with God.

"He feels strongly about respecting work. None of us would be in the position we are in without God. That's how we look at it. When we're going out there, we're giving thanks. It's not a matter [of] putting work before God."

Asked about other workplaces free of religion, Houston said "We have access to it. We have the blessing to be able to do it. A lot of people don't."

Pastor Love was not in attendance for the Knicks' 93-80 win over the Wizards last night at the Garden. Yesterday, Van Gundy said he stood by his remarks but wished he hadn't made them.

Eddie160
04-08-01, 09:05 PM
I think they should limit the pastor but not keep the players form praying nomatter what religion it is he should respect his players rights and about keeping prayer away from work well most people who really want to pray at work do without any problems besides isn't freedom of religion one of our rights? does it mean that when we are at work those rights are forfited? I don't think so .I think telling them not to do it is more of a distraction then the praying itself.

Nome
04-09-01, 09:04 AM
Look,

Van Gundy is really wound up tight. In fact he might even be hurting the team now. They need to be looser to play well.

But I can understand his frustration. They play great against good teams and give away games to the cellar dwellers. The Knicks also always seem to come out sleepwalkung at the start of the second half. So the man is understandably frustrated and needs a vacation.

He made his remarks using the wrong choice of words when he spoke out about the teams distraction due to the religious observances. But, he is not practicing censorship nor is he limiting their freedom of religion. All he is saying is that his players get paid a lot of money for their skills and while at the workplace they should pay attention to work and practice any religious observances they may want on their time. There is nothing wrong for Van Gundy to demand this.

Yes, Torre allows more latitude for the Yankees to hold religious services in the clubhouse, but if they started to lose for an extended period of time and they were conducting services in the clubhouse instead of practicing and getting ready for the game you can bet the bank Torre would do something about it, but in a less public way than Van Gundy did.

Ansky39
04-09-01, 10:34 AM
look, you know I respect your opinions as much as anyones nomes, but it’s time to stop giving van heathen a free pass… this guy is the COACH, of one of the highest paid most talented teams in the game… his job is to coach, guide, manage, INSPIRE, this well assembled group of players… all he’s managed to do since losing his interim status is show his loyalty to aging vets at the expense of the team… he doesn’t have a clue about inspiring players to reach higher levels… instead he blames god for they’re uninspired play… riles as much as I hate him for desertin’ us, is a truly great coach… he inspire his players…. He challenges them and puts them in a position to succeed… he’s got bums like bowen, carter, marjle playin’ w/ passion, intensity, and waaaay above they’re heads… we gotta coach who refused to start spree, camby and now rice despite allstar credentials, in deference to old washed up has beens like pat and lj… we gotta coach who instead of creating matchhup nightmares for our opposition w/ our versatile deep lineup, plays to the opponents strengths by throwing undersized players at every friggin position… he’s got lj startin’ at power forward except when we play the lakers, then he moves him to center… what the… he’s got spree playin at 3 instead of in the backcourt where he could really exploit opposing guards… he’s got Jackson playin the perimeter instead of postin’ up 5foot hardaway the way he used to post us up when he was in Indiana… he’s got rice out there, but refuses to post him up against decrepid old laterally and athletically challenged marjle… he calls the team structurally flawed… so f’in flawed he had our very capable and accomplished gm ernie grunfeld fired… what’s flawed is van einstein’s coaching… you got a front court w/ camby who gives you 12-15 points and 12-15 boards a night and Thomas and Harrington at 4… lj don’t belong there… at the smallforward we got rice one of the best pure shooters in the game… yeah we gotta start spree, but as soon as rice comes in spree should either sit or move to the backcourt… you got uninspired Houston at 2… he should have to earn his friggin minutes in my book… but either way, you still got a quality backcourt of spree, Houston, Jackson and ward, w/ spree sharing minutes at 3… this is a stocked team.. if riles had coached Houston, the kid would be droppin 30 a night…

this guy van dumbass wants to blame god, for our uninspired play.. :rolleyes: it’s HIS FREAKIN JOB to inspire the team… look at the job rivers did in orlanda last seas, w/ NO ONE!!!! Now he’s got one player and he’s a playoff team… van ego needs t take a long look in the mirror… he wants to blame everyone from the players lack of heart, to there fraternization w/ opposing teams AFTER the game to their religion… yet one coach gets on the hotseat and van gundy’s the first one defending them… phil Jackson ripped him for years, and all he does is kiss up to him… where’s his friggin heart.. forget that where’s his brain… lj on shaq??? We got the players to get this thing done.. the year we went to the finals, we went despite van gundy… we wnet because pat broke down, and van genius was forced to play camby… we went because spree took over despite being benched all season… this year we got Thomas rice and Harrington being severely underutilized… lj should not be on the floor except to maybe back up rice at SMALL FORWARD.. he is NOT a power forward… we got two of those, play them… imagine how successful lj would be postin up smaller guys instead of 6’10” trees or 7 foot behemoths… we got rice who can shoot over anyone and post most opposing small forwards… spree, Houston at the two gives us a great tandem w/ opposing styles… Jackson and ward at the 1 provide serviceable leadership on the court… Jackson, at 1, spree at 2, rice and lj at 3 and Thomas and Harrington at 4 create post opportunities for our offense and matchup problems for most opponents… and the CAMBYMAN is DA MAN at center… ain’t a finer center in the east imho…

we gotta great team here.. we just need a coach…


once again, no offense nomes, just difference of opinion...

b-ball-lunachick
04-09-01, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Ansky39
this guy van dumbass wants to blame god, for our uninspired play..

I heard the Mike/Mad Dog interview VanGundy about this issue the other day, and as usual he was very upfront and honest, and he's not blaming God for uninspired play...if anything he is pointing to the players who are using "company time" to focus on religion instead of basketball.

VanGundy said he was not misquoted at all, but that the interviewer asked him for things that can become distractions for basketball players. The interviewer chose to only write about 2 from the list of things he had given...one of them was religion...he only regrets saying them, not because he doesn't believe in what he said, but because with the subject of religion there are so many passionate viewpoints, that he is wrong simply for mentioning it.

As for the distraction, he said the pastor has his own room in the clubhouse and he has no problem at all with how much players seek counsel or prayer, but that it shouldn't be done on "work time". He said at times the pastor encourages them to come off the court while they are practicing certain shots for a prayer session!!!

I agree with VanGundy that it shouldn't be allowed -- why should it, because it's religion? If one player gets relaxed and focused before a game by having relations with a woman beforehand, should he be able to miss shoot-arounds to go "relax"? Why can't they come to the arena earlier then and take care of anything that gets them prepared, before the team preparation?

He was asked if he liked the post-game prayer with both teams in the middle of the court...and he answered no. He's old-school and believes that there is too much fraternization amongst players on other teams, and there should be more focus on competition...but that's his opinion, and never forces those opinions on his players...

I understand your frustration with VanGundy's loyalty to aging players and his hesitation to use any players other than his starters, but it seems you may be using this issue just to vent more hostility about him...do you really think the players should be able to do what they want on "company time"? I know I couldn't get away with that at my job, nor can I think of many people who could.

Ansky39
04-09-01, 12:57 PM
luna, i hear you, i just cannot agree... these guys have been praying since we got the ex qb turned preaher ward... inn that time we've gone to the finals and the deep into the plyoffs every year... it clearly has not impacted our team in the past... is he suggesting that maybe if they didn't pray, they would have upset the spurs???

he's just an idiot, plain and simple, there is no way around this.... this is not a typical work environment... in a tyopical work environment i don't gotta worry about hannah storm walking in while i'm in my towel... this is sports, entertainment... these guys compete hard... some have a lot of negative bs in their lives and still get paid (strickland) you got some guys whoi want to focus on their faith, not in between shots but before and after games.. they compete hard, risk injury and they wanna thanks god for what they got, their health their wealth and maybe pray for a friggin win.... what the hell is wrong w/ that... van gundy is just an idiot... hye got promoted waaay over his head, and now it's showing... when other coaches are looking to motivate their players, he's rippng them for everything from heart to their faith... what is he scared the preacher is a better coach than he is... he's an idiot... idiot idiot, idiot...

what makes this moron oldschool... he never played a pro game in his life... he was a div THREE pointguard... he's never competed at this level... what's his point of reference... he got an interim gig, and because of pat, he got the gig, that's it... he is NOT headcoach material... he's good w/ x's & o's, but so is anyone that has nba live... at this level, you need a leader, a general, ab guy that can inspire... his players don't even acknowledge him.. why ypou ask.. because when he's not rippping them on the media or burying them on the benhc he's going off the wall like here ripping something that has NOTHING to do w/ his job... i'm agnostic, i could care less about reliegion, but i do know that for some poeple it serves a purpose... i don't see how this impacts on his ability to do his job...

b-ball-lunachick
04-09-01, 01:58 PM
That's okay, ansky -- we can agree to disagree...I do agree with some of your points, but I don't think VanGundy is an idiot...I do think he tends to focus on the negative in his Droopy Dog style even after a game full of positives, but that's his style and personality...if he started hopping around all positive, trying to inspire everyone, it would seem false and would miss its mark....his toughness may prohibit him from reaching the player who needs constant positive feeback, but I don't think it prohibits him from being a good coach overall....

While you are correct that it is not the normal work environment (loved the Hannah Storm comment, lol), it is still a work environment, and you can't do whatever you please...there is a boss that sets rules, and if they aren't followed, there will be a loss of respect on both sides, and a break down...I personally am not a religious person, although I am very spiritual, but I think there is too much of an emphasis on religion in sports today...I think God has better things to do than worry about the Knicks losing to the Heat yesterday, but that's just my opinion...these guys have plenty of time on the plane to their next game to thank God for what they have, and to seek guidance for the coming game if that's what they choose...

As for VanGundy's ability as a coach, you seem to think it's his fault they did not take the championship vs the Spurs...you can also look at it that they may not have been in the position to compete for it, if it wasn't for VanGundy...seems to me the Knicks teams under him are always pretty competetive, as you said going deep into the playoffs every year -- maybe you don't give him enough credit for that...

There is one thing we both agree on though, and that is that LJ should just retire -- as I said in another post, I think as a 5'4" woman with limited basketball ability, I may be able to contribute more at this point than he can...VanGundy does need to lose some of this loyalty to aging veterans and keep them fresh for the few minutes they are on the court by using more of his bench...I know we'll both be rooting for the same team in the end too...GO KNICKS! :)

Ansky39
04-09-01, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by b-ball-lunachick
I know we'll both be rooting for the same team in the end too...GO KNICKS! :)

agreed... only i plan on keeping my fingers crossed and a bottle of tums handy... hope that's ok w/ your coach... ;)

Jim F.
04-09-01, 02:25 PM
"van antichrist"?

:lol:

You never cease to crack me up, Kurt!

-jim

Nome
04-09-01, 03:12 PM
Hey Ansky, to paraphase you, you know I respect the hell out of you, but we ain't gonna agree on every issue and that's the way it should be.

I know how you feel and how I feel. I can't say anyone is right. There is no easy answer to ANY question. Nothing is ever as it seems.
Anyway I sure as hell like discussing things with you even when we differ. Hell it beats the lunch I just got back with my former secretary, a born again christian. I will NEVER understand how a group of people can feel that they are right about everything and all dissidents are entirely wrong. No logic, no discussion points ever penetrates their mind set. If she is right about her view of the world and god, I wonder why she has so many troubles and is so unhappy as a "true believer of every last sylable of the bible and me as a questioner is so happy and blessed with life. Is GOD giving me these blessings now and punishing me later and punishing her now and rewarding her later? Ah, life is a mystery.

The best thing about the lunch is that I got to drive home (a one hour drive) in 80 degree weather , the top down and the sun beating on me with the CD playing the Mama's and Papas, the Righteous Brothers and John Fogerty.

Ah Ansky, It is far better to disagree with you than with a born again christian.

Oh by the way, I think the Knicks would be worse with another coach. IE Gunday-san is a good coach with some problems.

CJM
04-09-01, 07:53 PM
There is nothing I hate more than a player in any sport giving God the credit when his team wins.

Does God love his teams players more than he loves the other teams?Give me a break.

I agree with VG.I don't have a priest come into my office every morning.There are no staff prayers.You want to go to church on your own time,fine.When you go to work,you work.

b-ball-lunachick
04-09-01, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Ansky39


agreed... only i plan on keeping my fingers crossed and a bottle of tums handy... hope that's ok w/ your coach... ;)

LOL, Ansky...you always make me laugh!! :D

CJM: I hear ya on the other teams thing...if both of the teams are praying, who does God help out? Is it the team with more players praying, or does it have to do with how much God likes the players who are praying, lol!! I never got that one myself!! ;)

Ansky39
04-10-01, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by CJM
There is nothing I hate more than a player in any sport giving God the credit when his team wins.

Does God love his teams players more than he loves the other teams?Give me a break.

I agree with VG.I don't have a priest come into my office every morning.There are no staff prayers.You want to go to church on your own time,fine.When you go to work,you work.

they pray WITH the other team... chances are they're praying to give thanks or for their health, and not soley to win a game...

once agin, playing basketball is in no way shape or form akin to office work... they go to practice, they're on time for games... they choose to pray before and after games... is this really a crime... you mean hannah and any chick w/ a mic can come into the locker room before and after games, (which they CAN'T do here at my office gig), but a priest can't... what does he think the priest is on the take and will sell him out to the heat???? i'm definitely no saint and i could care less about religion personally, but if it helps these guys walk the str8 and narrow and keeps them outta trouble, i'm all for it... they could be showing up late and high like alot of other players... they compete hard, they just have limited direction from their "coach"

Ansky39
04-10-01, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Nome
Hey Ansky, to paraphase you, you know I respect the hell out of you, but we ain't gonna agree on every issue and that's the way it should be.

I know how you feel and how I feel. I can't say anyone is right. There is no easy answer to ANY question. Nothing is ever as it seems.
Anyway I sure as hell like discussing things with you even when we differ. Hell it beats the lunch I just got back with my former secretary, a born again christian. I will NEVER understand how a group of people can feel that they are right about everything and all dissidents are entirely wrong. No logic, no discussion points ever penetrates their mind set. If she is right about her view of the world and god, I wonder why she has so many troubles and is so unhappy as a "true believer of every last sylable of the bible and me as a questioner is so happy and blessed with life. Is GOD giving me these blessings now and punishing me later and punishing her now and rewarding her later? Ah, life is a mystery.

The best thing about the lunch is that I got to drive home (a one hour drive) in 80 degree weather , the top down and the sun beating on me with the CD playing the Mama's and Papas, the Righteous Brothers and John Fogerty.

Ah Ansky, It is far better to disagree with you than with a born again christian.

Oh by the way, I think the Knicks would be worse with another coach. IE Gunday-san is a good coach with some problems.

we're defintely on the same page w/ it comes to these religious people... my best friend just became a born again seventh day adventist... see what being a mutts fan will do to ya... anyways, i told him the same thing, if it works for you fine, but don't come preaching this way... they swear they got the answer to everything, but point out one hypocrisy and they can no longer think.. and that is the key.. it's like religion substitues for rational thinking... it confines their thought process.. everything is based on some doctrine, not logic... and as you pointed out, what does it mean for the billions who don't subscribe to their particular theology...

anyways nomes, one day we'll ge together and maybe i'll get that brew you've been promising me, and we can disagree all day about van airhead... one thing i know we'll agree on is how privileged we are to be fans of the greatest team in the history of professional sports... thank god for torre... thank god for the yanks...

later nomes.

Ansky39
04-10-01, 12:48 PM
hmmmm.... no lj, no houston yet the knicks destroy playoff bound hornets shooting their best % in months...

once again, due to injury of his favorite players, van leghugger is forced to start the REAL players and we succeed... just like when pat went down and he was forced to play camby and start spree... this genius has force fed us a steady diet of bs re: lj all season, and look what happens in his absence... my man kurt thomas drops 22 on 10-13 shooting... his rightful backup at powerforward, othella drops 14 on 6-7, spree finally playing his true position SHOOTING GUARD, scores 21 on 10-16 and my man rice drops in 16 STARTING at the small forward spot... action jackson w/ 9 pts 7 assists and ward dropping 14 at the point... boy we REALLY gotta great coach here... all it takes is a few injuries for him to get the rotation right... once again, he'll get all the credit for how far we advance, but as i've said from day one, we go as spree and camby go... these two are the catalyst for our team... and they completely ignore van oak pat and lj fan... we got a legit small forward in rice, some front court depth w/ thella backing thomas, and a trueblue point gurard in jackson, if van grumpy can just manage to stay out the way and just LET THEM PLAY, i can see us going to the finals again... you wanna play, 8, play 8, but lj ain't one of em... and houston, well, we're stuck w/ him for now, but hopefully, hopefully we can get a cwebb or g payton for him this summer when we're forced to fork over the max to him...

Nome
04-10-01, 02:30 PM
Hey Ansky,

You're like my wife. You gotta have the last word.

And how come you and Seahorse went to a recent Yankee game and didn't invite Jim or Me??

CJM
04-10-01, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Ansky39


they pray WITH the other team... chances are they're praying to give thanks or for their health, and not soley to win a game...

once agin, playing basketball is in no way shape or form akin to office work... they go to practice, they're on time for games... they choose to pray before and after games... is this really a crime... you mean hannah and any chick w/ a mic can come into the locker room before and after games, (which they CAN'T do here at my office gig), but a priest can't... what does he think the priest is on the take and will sell him out to the heat???? i'm definitely no saint and i could care less about religion personally, but if it helps these guys walk the str8 and narrow and keeps them outta trouble, i'm all for it... they could be showing up late and high like alot of other players... they compete hard, they just have limited direction from their "coach"


Yes you're right,it isn't akin to office work.If they lived in the real world,they would show up and keep themselves on the straight and narrow or they wouldn't eat.

Having a priest or a chaplain or whatever in their workplace is just another example of the coddled,spoiled lives these guys lead.

I don't care what they do before or after games either,if having a clergyman in the locker room makes em feel better,then fine.But I do find it a little excessive and a tad ridiculous.

patrick.o
04-11-01, 12:32 AM
Well, I don't have time right now to read this whole thing, but if it hasn't already been addressed, Pat "whaddya mean I have more than seven guys on the playoff roster?" Riley has been to no, zero, nada, zilcho finals since leaving the K-nickerbockers. So Van Gundy is winning that contest.
I like Van Gundy. I don't see any K-nicks team that he's been coach of that would have gone further than they did if someone else was the coach, and that includes Pat "maybe I should let someone else be the GM so I can concentrate on coaching" Riley.

(ps Don't get me wrong, I think Pat "did you get my fax?" Riley is a fine coach.)