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yanksrule69
06-17-04, 07:59 AM
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=32196

``I can't win - 21 ABs (for Pawtucket) but no, `You're faking it' and `Cmon, what are you waiting for?' Then I come back, they are still going to say `See - he sucks. He's not good. You were bad last year, you're bad this year.' It's a no-win situation. They should just be glad I'm back.''


And everyone was bitching the Yankees have bad attitudes and 'chemistry'.:uhh: :rolleyes:

I feel bad for Nomar. I think he is a good guy and has been treated unfairly by the Red Sox, just my opinion. It really seems like he cannot win, but this complaining is really unnecessary.

RedGlare
06-17-04, 08:12 AM
wow he said that? wtf is wrong with Sox fans? Nomar is such a wonderful ballplayer and just a really great guy. I remember many many times he's killed the Yanks.

If Jeter can bat under .100 for the whole month of April and still recieve huge support from his fans you'd think that Normar would be supported after a few games back from the DL.

:confused:

What's ANSKY?
06-17-04, 08:30 AM
Well, when he walks away at the end of the year, they'll know why.

KC
06-17-04, 08:35 AM
Suck it up, Nomar.

silverdsl
06-17-04, 08:42 AM
Who is he ripping here? The fans? The media? The Red Sox? I think most folks have been pretty patient and understanding about Nomar and he's a player that the majority of people seem to like and respect.

Nomar can't expect that no one is ever going to criticize him. I think it's pretty legitimate to wonder how he's going to play in his return from an extended stint on the DL and how the rest of his season is going to go.

-Deborah

NDBoston
06-17-04, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by RedGlare
wow he said that? wtf is wrong with Sox fans? Nomar is such a wonderful ballplayer and just a really great guy. I remember many many times he's killed the Yanks.

If Jeter can bat under .100 for the whole month of April and still recieve huge support from his fans you'd think that Normar would be supported after a few games back from the DL.

:confused:

I guess you don't watch many Red Sox games in Iowa.

Nomar has received huge ovations at the plate since he's come back to the Red Sox. Unless he's paying attention to some idiotic sports radio callers , Nomar has received a 100% positive reaction from the fans in Fenway.

The media on the other hand hasn't. CHB questioning the injury and Tony Mazz saying Nomar might be delaying his return to stick it to ownership.

So what have the fans done Red Glare?

NDBoston
06-17-04, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by yanksrule69
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=32196

``I can't win - 21 ABs (for Pawtucket) but no, `You're faking it' and `Cmon, what are you waiting for?' Then I come back, they are still going to say `See - he sucks. He's not good. You were bad last year, you're bad this year.' It's a no-win situation. They should just be glad I'm back.''


And everyone was bitching the Yankees have bad attitudes and 'chemistry'.:uhh: :rolleyes:

I feel bad for Nomar. I think he is a good guy and has been treated unfairly by the Red Sox, just my opinion. It really seems like he cannot win, but this complaining is really unnecessary.

Red Sox ownership had Texas approach them about ARod, after Nomar turned down 2 large contract offers (one being 4 years 60 million).

It's unfortunate the trade rumors came out, but that was from the Hicks side, and that's how it goes.

How exactly was he treated unfairly?

silverdsl
06-17-04, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston
How exactly was he treated unfairly? Personally, I don't think Nomar's been treated unfairly by anyone. Granted the media up in Boston are pretty rough but he had to expect some negativity from them. That's why I'm a little surprised by his comments.

-Deborah

NDBoston
06-17-04, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by silverdsl
Personally, I don't think Nomar's been treated unfairly by anyone. Granted the media up in Boston are pretty rough but he had to expect some negativity from them. That's why I'm a little surprised by his comments.

-Deborah

He's very thin skinned Deborah. He always has been. FWIW, I think he wanted to leave Boston long before the ARod trade scenario because he didn't like the media scrutiny and wanted to get closer to home.

I have a better chance of dating Jessica Alba, than Nomar resigning with the Red Sox.

Espinosa's Glasses
06-17-04, 10:22 AM
He definately hasn't been treated unfairly... he definately hasn't been disrespected by the fans... at games....

yet, he was second best to A-Rod when the rumors came out...
next, he heard those rumors through the media...
and, I assume that could really make a man mad...

lastly, I don't remember Nomar expressing himself this strongly over his career... which only leads you to believe something is wrong between him and the organization... just speculating though

NDBoston
06-17-04, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Espinosa's Glasses
He definately hasn't been treated unfairly... he definately hasn't been disrespected by the fans... at games....

yet, he was second best to A-Rod when the rumors came out...
next, he heard those rumors through the media...
and, I assume that could really make a man mad...

lastly, I don't remember Nomar expressing himself this strongly over his career... which only leads you to believe something is wrong between him and the organization... just speculating though

guess what...

Nomar isn't as good as ARod. He knows that too

So it made him mad. what choice does ownership have, when they don't think they can resign him? Hell, this is a business.

It's no different than the Yankees trading Soriano or Wells, a guy who would bleed for the Yankees when they traded for Clemens

Nomar has complained numerous times in his career with the sox. He created the "red line" in the clubhouse the media couldn't cross. He complained over the medical staff and with the firing of coaches exclaimed "I see why players don't stay here" Ths was with the old ownership BTW

There are numerous other instances that you can google for yourself.

Espinosa's Glasses
06-17-04, 10:34 AM
I know he's not as good... thats why he wasn't treated unfairly...

but, Nomar was probably offended...

yes it is a business...

... but Nomar is a person... and people can become offended

NDBoston
06-17-04, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Espinosa's Glasses
I know he's not as good... thats why he wasn't treated unfairly...

but, Nomar was probably offended...

yes it is a business...

... but Nomar is a person... and people can become offended

ownership was offended when Nomar turned down 4-60 million and then went on to WEEI during the arod scenario and claimed he wanted to stay in Boston but never heard from Boston on a contract offer, when in fact he turned down 2 offers.

Bottom line.

Stop talking and start playing Nomar.

KC
06-17-04, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston
He created the "red line" in the clubhouse the media couldn't cross.

Do you happen to remember what was going on in the papers at the time when this happened?

NDBoston
06-17-04, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by KC


Do you happen to remember what was going on in the papers at the time when this happened?

Maybe it was the Buckley claim that Nomar called the official scorer over an error call that he denied.

:lol:

Actually, I have no idea.

Espinosa's Glasses
06-17-04, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston


Bottom line.

Stop talking and start playing Nomar.

right... he just has to keep his opinion to himself...

the main problem with this quote by Nomar... is that everyone can read it

ClemensFan4Life
06-17-04, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston


He's very thin skinned Deborah. He always has been. FWIW, I think he wanted to leave Boston long before the ARod trade scenario because he didn't like the media scrutiny and wanted to get closer to home.

I have a better chance of dating Jessica Alba, than Nomar resigning with the Red Sox.

Hey, leave my girlfriend out of this.....:lol:

Coney36
06-17-04, 11:30 AM
This isn't exactly new news. He hasn't been happy for quite awhile...

parkerstrong
06-17-04, 11:57 AM
I love how people think Shef and Brown will cause "chemistry problems" and nothing has happened with them this year. However, Pedro makes comments that bother people (22-21 since his comments) and now Nomar shoots his mouth off. Which team has better chemistry? The Yankees.

BombersBlvd
06-17-04, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by RedGlare

If Jeter can bat under .100 for the whole month of April and still recieve huge support from his fans you'd think that Normar would be supported after a few games back from the DL.

:confused:


I was at the games where Jeter got booed, and was sickenned. Yes, Jeter was able to turn it around, but after seeing fans booing Derek Jeter at Yankee Stadium, I wouldn't exactly rush to call fan support for Jeter as entirely 'unconditional', so to speak, during that stretch of April.

NDBoston
06-17-04, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by parkerstrong
I love how people think Shef and Brown will cause "chemistry problems" and nothing has happened with them this year. However, Pedro makes comments that bother people (22-21 since his comments) and now Nomar shoots his mouth off. Which team has better chemistry? The Yankees.

What are you taking about? Pedro has pitched great during that 22-21 stretch. What "people" are bothered? Things are fine in Pedro land.

The Red Sox are losing because they aren't hitting with RISP.

flymick24
06-17-04, 12:12 PM
if anything, it was more of a loving boo, a boo that would hopefully send him in the right direction. never was there any malice behind all the booing.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-17-04, 12:16 PM
Yea Jeter did get ripped, but he sucked it up and was strong. AS someone said, people do have feelings and it is hard for some to play under the glare of New York and especially Boston. Seriously, how can you blame a guy for being injured. I remember people were blaming jeter for missing a month last season because he shouldn't have slide in head first. People will always find faults no matter who they are talking about

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-17-04, 12:54 PM
This has absolutely nothing to do with the fans whatsoever. That should be blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen Sox games this year since Nomar came back. Its once again, the idiots on the radio and in the media, constantly spinning their theories and bullsh**, most notably of late that Nomar was trying to stick it to the Red Sox by not coming back soon enough. These writers drive me absolutely ***king crazy. One minute they act like fans and the next minute they seem to be actively searching for ways to bring down both individual players and the team. So unbelievably frustrating as a fan to give as much support as you possibly can to guys and to a team as a whole, but knowing that one blowhard's question or article after a game can almost single handedly make a guy bitter. I know its their job, and I know this is the nature of the beast, Its just really disappointing and aggravating.

Alex
06-17-04, 01:00 PM
When he was on the DL, making his rehab starts, there were several articles out there about how the Red Sox thought he was ready and was dragging his feet. At least that's the sense I got reading the Red Sox board.... the fans and the media jumped on it and started discussing whether he was "milking" the injury.

I like Nomar. One of my favorites. It'll be much easier to hate the Red Sox if he leaves the team.

cubswin
06-17-04, 01:01 PM
As Wake and ND pointed out, the fans have not booed Nomar.

As Deb pointed out, it is completely unclear who Nomar is referring to. I would imnagine this is intentional on the part of the writer -- another hack "journalist" trying to make a story out of nothing.

KP88
06-17-04, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
This has absolutely nothing to do with the fans whatsoever. That should be blatantly obvious to anyone who has seen Sox games this year since Nomar came back. Its once again, the idiots on the radio and in the media, constantly spinning their theories and bullsh**, most notably of late that Nomar was trying to stick it to the Red Sox by not coming back soon enough. These writers drive me absolutely ***king crazy. One minute they act like fans and the next minute they seem to be actively searching for ways to bring down both individual players and the team. So unbelievably frustrating as a fan to give as much support as you possibly can to guys and to a team as a whole, but knowing that one blowhard's question or article after a game can almost single handedly make a guy bitter. I know its their job, and I know this is the nature of the beast, Its just really disappointing and aggravating.

Once again, you beat me to it. I couldn't have said that any better myself. Boston media being what it is, the idiots it counts as its members are always searching for a way to rile somebody up, and are also infamous for flip-flopping from day to day in their work (see Pedro). We, the fans, are behind Nomar and while obviously are hoping for a speedy recovery back to full strength, are willing to be patient with him. To hell with those that aren't.

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-17-04, 01:24 PM
Even more of a reason why Nomar is definitely gone next year, Red Sox media, radio, newspaper, ect....I don't think the man can take it anymore. Come on over to the dark side Nomar. You will have a fun time, be will all your buddies on the infield. You can hit .280 with 15HRs and 15 SB and I will be happy....Nobody will know you are on the team most of the time in this lineup...

Qlitch
06-17-04, 01:43 PM
They should just be glad I'm back.



He's absolutely right. I feel bad for Nomar sometimes, he really is a good guy. Sad how the media treats him.

JDPNYY
06-17-04, 01:52 PM
Maybe Nomar should quit baseball and try soccer.

BruceCampbellKG7
06-17-04, 02:50 PM
We'll treat him better next year. He will embrace the 2nd base position in the Bronx..

cubswin
06-17-04, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by BruceCampbellKG7
We'll treat him better next year. He will embrace the 2nd base position in the Bronx..



I thought a common refrain here is that the NY media supposedly is tougher than any in the country, including Boston

ForceFive
06-17-04, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by cubswin




I thought a common refrain here is that the NY media supposedly is tougher than any in the country, including Boston

I'm not too sure about that. I've lived in both areas, and Boston's gives any place a run for the money. NY is overbearing because there are SO MANY newspapers; and some of them are very tough and yellow-journalism driven (coughNYPostcough). But Boston's writers aren't only smart, but cynical. NY media has the higher quantity of jerks... but Boston has the higher quality of the jerk, I think. ;)

flymick24
06-17-04, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive


I'm not too sure about that. I've lived in both areas, and Boston's gives any place a run for the money. NY is overbearing because there are SO MANY newspapers; and some of them are very tough and yellow-journalism driven (coughNYPostcough). But Boston's writers aren't only smart, but cynical. NY media has the higher quantity of jerks... but Boston has the higher quality of the jerk, I think. ;)

that was eloquent, man

cubswin
06-17-04, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive


I'm not too sure about that. I've lived in both areas, and Boston's gives any place a run for the money. ...


I agree with you -- i just don't think many people here do, at least from the many posts I've read.

KC
06-17-04, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive
NY is overbearing because there are SO MANY newspapers;

And because of that, NY reporters have to be careful not to alienate a player, because then the competition will get the scoop. They have to walk a fine line.

RedGlare
06-17-04, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston
I guess you don't watch many Red Sox games in Iowa. I guess you haven't heard of Direct TV. I have watched a lot... just not in the last few weeks with finals. :uhh:

I guess you figure that since I go to school in Iowa I would be quite uninformed about a great many things.

I guess that maybe you just think it's funny that I'm in iowa since you love pointing it out.

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?postid=1227024#post1227024

But hey.... I'm just guessing


Originally posted by NDBoston
Nomar has received huge ovations at the plate since he's come back to the Red Sox. Unless he's paying attention to some idiotic sports radio callers , Nomar has received a 100% positive reaction from the fans in Fenway.

The media on the other hand hasn't. CHB questioning the injury and Tony Mazz saying Nomar might be delaying his return to stick it to ownership.

So what have the fans done Red Glare? I don't know ND Boston.

I just assumed it was either the fans or his own teammates by the nature of his quote. I doubted that his own team would say stuff like that as they know that Nomar is a great player.

It is good to hear that the fans that still support him. He is a great guy and a hell of a ballplayer than any fan should want on his or her team.

Let me change my question then:
What is up with the Boston media? Nomar is a great player and will responcible for many Sox W's this year. If he is run out of Boston at the end of the year as a Yankee fan I will be happy, but as a baseball fan I will be quite sad.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-17-04, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive


I'm not too sure about that. I've lived in both areas, and Boston's gives any place a run for the money. NY is overbearing because there are SO MANY newspapers; and some of them are very tough and yellow-journalism driven (coughNYPostcough). But Boston's writers aren't only smart, but cynical. NY media has the higher quantity of jerks... but Boston has the higher quality of the jerk, I think. ;)

Interesting analysis.

Nomar belongs in LA. Writers here gave the largest collection of self interested jerks ever assembled, the 03-04 lakers, a complete pass because they might win.

Shawn Green, MLB's posterchild for on field underperformance the last two seasons, is coddled because he tries hard and is a nice guy.

Nomar would have great difficulty hitting HR's in Dodger stadium. But, as long as he's willing to live with alot of doubles, he'd love it. In my opinion, he's put up with the Boston media long enough. The support of the Sox fans does'nt appear to be enough for him. He seems like a good guy, and I know he's a great player. He deserves better.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-17-04, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by RedGlare

Let me change my question then:
What is up with the Boston media? Nomar is a great player and will responcible for many Sox W's this year. If he is run out of Boston at the end of the year as a Yankee fan I will be happy, but as a baseball fan I will be quite sad.

The Boston media is a group of bungholes. 'Nuff said.

RedGlare
06-17-04, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
The Boston media is a group of bungholes. 'Nuff said.
They must be. I mean if they can't give a guy like Nomar some respect who can they give it to?

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-17-04, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by RedGlare

They must be. I mean if they can't give a guy like Nomar some respect who can they give it to?

In my experience, absolutely noone is immune. Its kind of disheartening to be completely honest with you.

SoCal Pinstriper
06-17-04, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox


In my experience, absolutely noone is immune. Its kind of disheartening to be completely honest with you.

Didn't Schilling have a t-shirt that said something like "anything you say will be misquoted an used against you".:lol:

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-17-04, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Socal Pinstriper


Didn't Schilling have a t-shirt that said something like "anything you say will be misquoted an used against you".:lol:

Yep, he did. I believe he also called a reporter out in person after they printed something about him which wasn't true. He is not afraid to fire back at their crap. I think that aspect of his personality as it pertains to the media has actually made him even more popular with the fans.

WebsterMulligan
06-17-04, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
I thought a common refrain here is that the NY media supposedly is tougher than any in the country, including Boston
I do not completely agree with that. The sports media in Boston is brutal. Especially a few reporters who are downright cynical and thrive on dispersing negativity throughout Red Sox Nation. I cannot imagine how some of them would react, should the Red Sox win it all. They seem to cherish this misery that has plagued Red Sox fans since 1918.

As a Yankee fan, I love Nomar. The media should ease off of him and let him play ball. Nomar is probably the greatest Red Sox player since Ted Williams, it's truely a shame that he has to be treated this way. I'm sure the media will have plenty to write about, once he is gone.

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-17-04, 06:10 PM
The media here ran Mo Vaughn out of town, they were partially responsible for running Roger Clemens out of town, now they are trying to do the same with Pedro and Nomar. If these guys just shut the hell up, it would make Theos job ALOT easier. I'm personally sick of these media guys trying to become part of the story. The worst guys are Tony Massarotti, Greg Dickerson, and Dan Shaughnessy.

Nomar deserves better. I hope he stays, but wouldn't hold it against him if he left. Hes not going to the Yankees however. He can play for vitrtually any other team at his original posistion, and if he doesn't like the media here, I'm sure he wouldn't like it too much in NY either. He will most likely rot the rest of his career away in Cali with noone caring. Poor guy.

CyYoung4Vazquez
06-18-04, 12:33 AM
I think this is the reason why neither of our team's will sign Nomar next season. He cannot handle the media. IMO it's almost a given he'll be in LA or in Anaheim. And frankly he'll probably choose the Dodgers just so he won't have to face the Boston fans. I'm just curious if this year it's going to be the media's fault when he has yet another stellar postseason.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-18-04, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by CyYoung4Vazquez
I think this is the reason why neither of our team's will sign Nomar next season. He cannot handle the media. IMO it's almost a given he'll be in LA or in Anaheim. And frankly he'll probably choose the Dodgers just so he won't have to face the Boston fans. I'm just curious if this year it's going to be the media's fault when he has yet another stellar postseason.

Why would he go to a fairly big baseball town like L.A. I was always under the assumption the fans were heavily into it like Yanks or Sox Fans. Its also a pitchers park if I am not mistaken, and doesn't have a 27 foot by 200 foot target in left field. Though playing in Coors would help

cubswin
06-18-04, 01:03 AM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Why would he go to a fairly big baseball town like L.A. I was always under the assumption the fans were heavily into it like Yanks or Sox Fans...


NO - not even close.

OilCan
06-18-04, 01:42 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if he was referring to a column Masserotti wrote right before he came off the DL, basically saying Nomar was sticking it to the Sox management by rehabbing longer than he need to.

Horrifying column, but it's to be expected from Masserotti.

But, quite honestly, other than that column and the expected CHB veiled shots, I haven't seen any suggestion from the media or the fans (especially the fans) that a) he dogged it during rehab or b) that he sucks now. Most fans realize that this is basically still spring training for him. I honestly think he's being a bit thin-skinned about this, he's been around Boston long enough to know what it's like.

The Boston media tears down it's stars (Pedro, Manny, Nomar, hell, Rice, all the way back to Williams) and saves it's adulation for the Lou Merloni's of the world. It's been happening for years. It sucks, and it sucks.

Nomar's my favorite player since Dewey, who was my favorite player since Yaz. It's going to be a very sad day when he leaves. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think more and more that it's inevitable. :(

SoCal Pinstriper
06-18-04, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by cubswin



NO - not even close.

The baseball vibe here is so far from the NY/Boston thing that you cannot even draw comparisons. The press is almost nonexistant, and, while ther are hardcore fans, baseball does not enter into everyday consciousness here.

As I said above, underperformance is not just tolerated, it is almost expected.

Nomar, an overperformer for his career, would be worshipped here.

Clete61
06-18-04, 07:09 AM
As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, " The red sox will be easier to dislike without Nomar". He is definitely a class act. That being said, I think Nomar needs the red sox as much as they need him. He knows the drill- the passion of the fans, the weasel media and playing in a hitters park. He's thrieved in that environment for years. If he leaves and heads to the laid back left coast, his career will probably mirror Fred Lynn's.

YankeeFan1
06-18-04, 09:45 AM
I've read 2 to 3 articles that suggested that Nomar was deliberately malingering to stick it to the Red Sox organization. The authors implied that their sources were from the Red Sox organization itself so I think that Nomar was lashing out at to those writers and their Red Sox sources, not the fans in general.

It is clear the Nomar is still pissed off about the Red Sox attempt to trade him off season. Nowhere has he given any indication that he ever wanted to leave Boston before this whole situation developed. He said when he first heard of the Red Sox trade, he thought that either he or Alex Rodriguez would have to change position. Nomar was clearly shocked and dismayed that the organization that he had played for all his career would be willing to trade him so easily.

After burning their bridges with Nomar, this is why I thought that the Red Sox would have to complete the trade Rodriguez. I couldn't believe that they actually thought that Nomar would be happy about them wanting to dump him so publicly. All the talk about Nomar being a professional and how he would deal with the situation just fine was ridiculous. What Nomar isn't a human being with feelings? Oh well, as long it isn't the Yankees having to deal with this situation, it is all good.

Arod for President
06-18-04, 02:57 PM
Nomar is going to play 2nd base for the Yankess next year. Then all will be complete.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-18-04, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Arod for President
Nomar is going to play 2nd base for the Yankess next year. Then all will be complete.

Keeeeeeep dreaming :snooze:

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-18-04, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by YankeeFan1
I've read 2 to 3 articles that suggested that Nomar was deliberately malingering to stick it to the Red Sox organization. The authors implied that their sources were from the Red Sox organization itself so I think that Nomar was lashing out at to those writers and their Red Sox sources, not the fans in general.

It is clear the Nomar is still pissed off about the Red Sox attempt to trade him off season. Nowhere has he given any indication that he ever wanted to leave Boston before this whole situation developed. He said when he first heard of the Red Sox trade, he thought that either he or Alex Rodriguez would have to change position. Nomar was clearly shocked and dismayed that the organization that he had played for all his career would be willing to trade him so easily.

After burning their bridges with Nomar, this is why I thought that the Red Sox would have to complete the trade Rodriguez. I couldn't believe that they actually thought that Nomar would be happy about them wanting to dump him so publicly. All the talk about Nomar being a professional and how he would deal with the situation just fine was ridiculous. What Nomar isn't a human being with feelings? Oh well, as long it isn't the Yankees having to deal with this situation, it is all good.

What, is Nomar the only star thats ever been in trade rumors? Give me a break, they weren't trying to "dump" him. They were trying to trade him for the only other play at his posistion better than him. They tried to sign him, he didn't sign, so they explored other avenues. Do you blame the Sox ownership? I know I sure don't. I blame the media, like I usually end up doing.

WebsterMulligan
06-18-04, 06:52 PM
I'm curious with Pokey's outstanding play at SS in Nomar's absence, the Red Sox might be inclined to simply let Nomar walk and extend Pokey to play SS after this season (I'm not sure of his contract status). IMO, Pokey play's better defensively at SS and has provided surprising offense. The Red Sox could sign Pokey cheap and use the savings on Nomar for pitching. The Red Sox already have enough offensive punch without Nomar, so Pokey's limited offensive capabilities would not be a liability.

cubswin
06-18-04, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by WebsterMulligan
I'm curious with Pokey's outstanding play at SS in Nomar's absence, the Red Sox might be inclined to simply let Nomar walk and extend Pokey to play SS after this season (I'm not sure of his contract status). IMO, Pokey play's better defensively at SS and has provided surprising offense. The Red Sox could sign Pokey cheap and use the savings on Nomar for pitching. The Red Sox already have enough offensive punch without Nomar, so Pokey's limited offensive capabilities would not be a liability.


If Nomar departs I absolutely want Pokey somewhere in the IF. However, I don't think he should affect their attempts to sign Nomar. I don't know if he is better defensively-- better range, but weaker arm. Losing Nomar also is a substantial hit to the offense.

stevethesoxfan
06-18-04, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston

I have a better chance of dating Jessica Alba, than Nomar resigning with the Red Sox.

You do!!! I just saw pics this week of her new boyfriend/fiance?!? LOSER CITY! He is 5'5" Scott Caan, son of James Caan. See below. :rolleyes:

Sure he's famous and has some bucks, but she can't do better than that?!? :barf: There's hope for us all.

http://200.57.71.50/clasos/imagenes/fotos_media/junio04/sem2/X-JAlba060804-02.jpg

wabio
06-18-04, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by BruceCampbellKG7
We'll treat him better next year. He will embrace the 2nd base position in the Bronx..

Hello Mr. Garciaparra. Welcome to New York and your new position at second base. The Yankees will now pursue a fourth shortstop and stick him at first to round out the infield. :D


Seriously, I'd love to have Nomar at second.

cubswin
06-18-04, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by wabio


Hello Mr. Garciaparra. Welcome to New York and your new position at second base. The Yankees will now pursue a fourth shortstop and stick him at first to round out the infield. :D


Seriously, I'd love to have Nomar at second.


Don't forget having one at C. Maybe the OF, too. (Around Beltran, of course.) :)

WebsterMulligan
06-18-04, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by wabio
Seriously, I'd love to have Nomar at second.
I'd rather have Pokey playing 2B for the Yanks and use the savings to pursue pitching.

JDPNYY
06-18-04, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by wabio





Seriously, I'd love to have Nomar at second.

The Yankees have two guys who play 2B part time.


Why would they want another part timer?

YankeeFan1
06-18-04, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49


What, is Nomar the only star thats ever been in trade rumors? Give me a break, they weren't trying to "dump" him. They were trying to trade him for the only other play at his posistion better than him. They tried to sign him, he didn't sign, so they explored other avenues. Do you blame the Sox ownership? I know I sure don't. I blame the media, like I usually end up doing. No matter how you feel about what the Red Sox organization did, Nomar clearly doesn't share your viewpoint. He has stated that he is unhappy about how the team treated him so obviously he blames them and doesn't appreciate their leaks beesmirching his reputation. Feel free to blame the media if it makes you feel better. Like I said, as long it isn't the Yankees going through this situation, it is all good.

twentyquestions
06-19-04, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49
I'm personally sick of these media guys trying to become part of the story. The worst guys are Tony Massarotti, Greg Dickerson, and Dan Shaughnessy.


don't forget Bob Lobel on the postgame shows in the barroom.

all I wanna know is

all I wanna know is

why can't I ask the question, that nomar should be 2b and pokey reese should be shortstop? why, listen, why can't I ask the question that your best athlete should be the shortstop? all I'm doing is asking the question of what happened to that.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-19-04, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by twentyquestions


don't forget Bob Lobel on the postgame shows in the barroom.

all I wanna know is

all I wanna know is

why can't I ask the question, that nomar should be 2b and pokey reese should be shortstop? why, listen, why can't I ask the question that your best athlete should be the shortstop? all I'm doing is asking the question of what happened to that.

You're probably right, but I still like Lobel, I'll admit. Maybe its because he gives me the impression that he actually cares. Whenever the Sox have a bad loss and he wraps up sports on channel 4 latenight, he makes no effort to hide his disgust, just like any other fan. Whereas Shaughnessey etc. I feel just want to all out sabotage things. Just my observations.

YANKEE MAGIC
06-19-04, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by JDPNYY


The Yankees have two guys who play 2B part time.


Why would they want another part timer?

:lol:

Mayday Malone
06-19-04, 07:43 AM
I don't feel as though Nomar's justified in being upset with the team regarding the ARod deal. He denied to offers from the Sox, which he convieniently is forgetting. He's also forgetting that he wasn't the only one that was a part of that deal. I haven't heard Manny complain once, and I'd consider him more valueble than Nomar, given how Pokey's been playing. Manny's attitude is that it's just business, while Nomar's taking it personally. That was part of the problem with Clemens and Vaughn.

Arod for President
06-21-04, 03:05 PM
Nomar 2nd Base for the Yankees in '05!!!

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 03:36 PM
No wonder the Red Soxs are destine to lose. It has nothing to do w/ the team it has to do w/ some of the fans. Red Sox fans dissed Ted Williams, only the greatest hitter ever in the game (pls save the Barry arguments for another thread) so much so, that Teddy Ballgame would not take a curtain call after his last AB which was a homerun!

Treated Mo Vaughn like dirt, even though he was a monster at the plate and ran all these charities and LOVED Boston.

Treated Clemens like a used car, let Boggs leave. It's ridiculous. But you guys love Kevin Millar!! Yeee-hawww! Cowboy up!

On the whole, it looks like Yankee fans respect Nomar more than Red Sox fans do. 'NUFF SAID!

cubswin
06-21-04, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
No wonder the Red Sox are destine to lose. It has nothing to do w/ the team it has to do w/ some of the fans. Red Sox fans dissed Ted Williams, only the greatest hitter ever in the game (pls save the Barry arguments for another thread) so much so, that Teddy Ballgame would not go out and take a curtain call after his last AB which was a homerun!

Treated Mo Vaughn like dirt, even though he was a monster at the plate and ran all these charities and LOVED Boston.

Treated Clemens like a used car, let Boggs leave. It's ridiculous. But you guys love Kevin Millar!! Yeee-hawww! Cowboy up!

Yankee fans respect Nomar more than Red Sox fans do. 'NUFF SAID!


This post is further from the truth than any I've ever read here.

I can't speak re. Williams since it was long before my time.

But the fans treated Mo like dirt? And Clemens? (He was disliked only upon leaving.) Not sure the fans had any say re letting Boggs leave -- was there a vote I was not aware of? And most fans think extremely highly of Nomar.

I think you're getting the fans mixed up w/the media.

cubswin
06-21-04, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Arod for President
Nomar 2nd Base for the Yankees in '05!!!


Already been posted here ad nauseum that Jeter is staying at SS, which means Nomar will not join the yanks. (Although it would be fun working on an infield composed entirely of better shortstops than your actual SS.)

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-21-04, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan


Treated Mo Vaughn like dirt, even though he was a monster at the plate and ran all these charities and LOVED Boston.

Treated Clemens like a used car, let Boggs leave. It's ridiculous. But you guys love Kevin Millar!! Yeee-hawww! Cowboy up!

On the whole, it looks like Yankee fans respect Nomar more than Red Sox fans do. 'NUFF SAID!

This is absolutely ridiculous and not at all representative of Boston fans' actions or feelings.

JDPNYY
06-21-04, 04:19 PM
I say we get Sori back, put him at 2nd, sign Nomar for 1st Base (Giambi can DH), then we have an entire Infield of natural Short Stops.

HelloNewman
06-21-04, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by cubswin



Already been posted here ad nauseum that Jeter is staying at SS, which means Nomar will not join the yanks. (Although it would be fun working on an infield composed entirely of better shortstops than your actual SS.)
You're under the impression Giambi is a better shortstop than Jeter? ;^)

Woodshed42
06-21-04, 04:51 PM
I had the pleasure of living in Kenmore Square for a year and Boston fans love Nomar more than any other player on the team including Pedro. If that has changed this year, I would be surprised.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-21-04, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Woodshed42
I had the pleasure of living in Kenmore Square for a year and Boston fans love Nomar more than any other player on the team including Pedro. If that has changed this year, I would be surprised.

It hasn't, although Pokey and Ortizzle are awfully popular now too.

Judge Mental
06-21-04, 05:51 PM
i wanna take this one quote at a time (i'm bored)


Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
No wonder the Red Soxs are destine to lose. It has nothing to do w/ the team it has to do w/ some of the fans.

steeeeerike one


Red Sox fans dissed Ted Williams, only the greatest hitter ever in the game (pls save the Barry arguments for another thread) so much so, that Teddy Ballgame would not take a curtain call after his last AB which was a homerun!

steeeeeeerike 2


Treated Mo Vaughn like dirt, even though he was a monster at the plate and ran all these charities and LOVED Boston.

steeeeeeerike 3 you're out!!!!!



Treated Clemens like a used car, let Boggs leave. It's ridiculous.

uh, steeerike 4?


But you guys love Kevin Millar!! Yeee-hawww! Cowboy up!

oh that's it fella.....you're outta here!!!! (ejects bobbymurcerfan)


On the whole, it looks like Yankee fans respect Nomar more than Red Sox fans do. 'NUFF SAID!

i tried going the subtle route....but this last sentence is just too much, i rarely ever go out of my way to dis something posted here but this was one of the dumbest posts ever in the history of this website, on like, a historical level.

MaineSoxFan
06-21-04, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
No wonder the Red Soxs are destine to lose. It has nothing to do w/ the team it has to do w/ some of the fans. Red Sox fans dissed Ted Williams, only the greatest hitter ever in the game (pls save the Barry arguments for another thread) so much so, that Teddy Ballgame would not take a curtain call after his last AB which was a homerun!

Treated Mo Vaughn like dirt, even though he was a monster at the plate and ran all these charities and LOVED Boston.

Treated Clemens like a used car, let Boggs leave. It's ridiculous. But you guys love Kevin Millar!! Yeee-hawww! Cowboy up!

On the whole, it looks like Yankee fans respect Nomar more than Red Sox fans do. 'NUFF SAID!

I agree with Cubswin and Wake in their assessment of this post. Williams hated the media not the fans, Mo was run out of town by management and got a standing O when he came back. Clemens...don't even want to get back into this. As far as I know the fans had no say in Boggs leaving and once again gave him a standing ovation when he came back. This post is so far from any factual basis that it is not even funny.

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 09:53 PM
Wow, talk about revisionist history!

Here is a Red Sox history lesson from a Yankee fan :eek: :

Ted Williams used to tip his cap after EVERY homerun when he broke in playing RF in 1939. But in 1940 he moved to LF and Williams slumped to 23 homers but he still batted OVER .340.

The fans started to get on his case b/c of the fewer HRs and b/c they thought he loafed running out fly balls and grounders. During one game when he struck out and made an error, he was BOOED so LOUDLY he said couldn't get the echo out of his head. "In the dugout between innings, I swore never again to tip my hat in Fenway Park." And he NEVER did!

Williams also called the fans at Fenway "those wolves in the leftfield stands."

You guys are in denial!

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Wow, talk about revisionist history!

Here is a Red Sox history lesson from a Yankee fan :eek: :

Ted Williams used to tip his cap after EVERY homerun when broke in playing RF in 1939. But in 1940 he moved to LF and season. Williams slumped to 23 homer in 1940 but he still batted OVER .340.

The fans started to get on his case b/c of the fewer HRs and b/c they thought he loafed running out fly balls and grounders. During one game during which he struck out and made an error, he was BOOED so LOUDLY he said couldn't get the echo out of his head. "In the dugout between innings, I swore never again to tip my hat in Fenway Park." And he NEVER did!

Williams also called the fans at Fenway "those wolves in the leftfield stands."

You guys are in denial!



ZING!!!!!!

NDBoston
06-21-04, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Wow, talk about revisionist history!

Here is a Red Sox history lesson from a Yankee fan :eek: :

Ted Williams used to tip his cap after EVERY homerun when broke in playing RF in 1939. But in 1940 he moved to LF and season. Williams slumped to 23 homer in 1940 but he still batted OVER .340.

The fans started to get on his case b/c of the fewer HRs and b/c they thought he loafed running out fly balls and grounders. During one game during which he struck out and made an error, he was BOOED so LOUDLY he said couldn't get the echo out of his head. "In the dugout between innings, I swore never again to tip my hat in Fenway Park." And he NEVER did!

Williams also called the fans at Fenway "those wolves in the leftfield stands."

You guys are in denial!

Williams had his issues. He was a greathitter, but he wasn't much of a father and not easy to like.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016638.html

"Williams is a peculiar case, so tangled in his inner man that even a psychologist or psychiatrist would have trouble unraveling him," wrote Arthur Daley in The New York Times. "He is more hated than liked by those who know him best."

He wasn't run out of town. His last game, Williams had this to say

"I want to say that my years in Boston have been the greatest of my life," Williams said.

I see you neglected to mention the rest.

Vaughn signed with Anaheim for huge $$$ and the Red Sox had concerns over weight and they were right not to sign him. Vaughn hates Boston so much that he lives back in Easton now. The fans ALWAYS loved Mo.

Clemens wanted to play at home, so he signed in Toronto :lol: I notice you missed his declining numbers before he decided to renew his work ethic after leaving.Boston.

Nomar turned down a 4 year 60 million dollar contract and his agent Art Tellum told management that they should look at trading him. So that's what they tried to do. What HORRIBLE people.

Your posts were full of inaccuracies. Feel free to tell some more tall tales if you like.

KingMouse
06-21-04, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by hellonewman

You're under the impression Giambi is a better shortstop than Jeter? ;^)

Yes.

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 10:55 PM
Ted Williams, bad father so the Boston FANS were right to give him grief.

Mo Vaughn, runs charities that HELP children and LOVED BOSTON, but Boston FANS agree "He's fat so get rid of him."

Wade Boggs, what was wrong w/ him? He was only the Tony Gwynn of the AL. And he won a GG playing 3B for the YANKEES! :NY: How much must that hurt?!

Clemens: Yes had a 10 and 13 record (on a mediocre Boston Team finished 8 games over .500). He also pitched 242 innings, w/ 257 strikeouts and a 3.62 ERA! That year Clemens lead the Red Soxs in: ERA, strikeouts per 9, total stirkeouts, games started, complete games, shutouts, and batters faced! Yeah he was really done. *sigh*

And Nomar. Let's see... Sox fans are salivating over the idea of getting A-Rod. "Theo is a genius." No matter that that trade also sends away your two BEST offensive players. Manny and NOMAR, yes NOMAR, THE GOD becomes an afterthought. Please don't tell me this was just the media or the front office, Boston FANS wanted A-Rod and if Many and Nomar going is what it took to get the deal done, so beit. That sickens me. Nomar has been a class guy, but the Boston FANS were ready, willing and able to download him for A-Rod.

On the other hand, Yankee fans went in mouring when DAVID WELLS was traded for Roger Clemens (remember him? The 257 strikeout, 3.62 ERA wash up who went on to win 3 more Cy Young Awards?) Quite a few Yankee fans still pine away for TINO MARTINEZ for G_d's sake.

And if you think getting rid Jeter for A-Rod would have been as welcomed by Yankee fans as what was tried on Nomar? YOU ARE KIDDING YOURSELF!

"... and his agent Art Tellum told management that they should look at trading him."So I guess Nomar is lying when he says he didn't want to be traded? I guess he was acting when seemed so upset that Boston was cutting him loose? I mean they were just doing what he wanted them to? Given me a break.

I find it really sad how willing Bo Sox FANS were to get rid of their two best position players. Long live Bill James! The latest guardian of the CURSE!

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:00 PM
This is gonna get ugly folks

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
...QUOTE]


Where are any facts supporting your assertions? You claim Sox fans wanted to get rid of Mo, Clemens, Nomar and Boggs. Can you provide any evidence of this?

(And btw, like most of the generalizations made about one group of fans versus the other, your claims of Yankee fans' superiority versus Sox fans is just dumb. For ex, your selection of Yankees' fans "loyalty" is specious. How about all the stuff here bashing Pettitte and Clemens, as just a recent example?)

KC
06-21-04, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by KingMouse
Yes.

:lol: Left yourself open for that one, hellonewman.

NDBoston
06-21-04, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
...QUOTE]


Where are any facts supporting your assertions? You claim Sox fans wanted to get rid of Mo, Clemens, Nomar and Boggs. Can you provide any evidence of this?

(And btw, like most of the generalizations made about one group of fans versus the other, your claims of Yankee fans' superiority versus Sox fans is just dumb. For ex, your selection of Yankees' fans "loyalty" is specious. How about all the stuff here bashing Pettitte and Clemens, as just a recent example?)

I put him on ignore cubswin. He's trolling on his own board. I didn't realize it sooner.

Mayday Malone
06-21-04, 11:11 PM
Ted Williams used to tip his cap after EVERY homerun when he broke in playing RF in 1939. But in 1940 he moved to LF and Williams slumped to 23 homers but he still batted OVER .340.

The fans started to get on his case b/c of the fewer HRs and b/c they thought he loafed running out fly balls and grounders. During one game when he struck out and made an error, he was BOOED so LOUDLY he said couldn't get the echo out of his head. "In the dugout between innings, I swore never again to tip my hat in Fenway Park." And he NEVER did!

Williams also called the fans at Fenway "those wolves in the leftfield stands."

You guys are in denial!


No. No,no,no,no,no,no,no, no and no. Do you have proof that the fans got on him for loafing? Do you understand that the media scrutiny that the players are under now was started back before Ted played? Red Sox Media take full liberties of assuming they can place the blame of anything they print as it's a fans point of view. That's why the media in Boston is so vile. They wirte what they feel, and if it's not accepted, then they turn it on the fans.


If you want to lambast Sox fans for booing their hero, and get your rocks off, go ahead. You'll get no where. But you're probably there already, aren't you? You forgot to add how idiotic Boston was for welcoming Ted back after he had served in two wars.

If Ted truly hates Boston, like you say, why's there a neat little place in Henando, Florida with a great big RS #9 and a bunch of Sox stuff inside?


I hope I haven't offended anyone, I don't want to jeopordize my status here in any way.

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston


I put him on ignore cubswin. He's trolling on his own board. I didn't realize it sooner.


Of course he is.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:15 PM
For ex, your selection of Yankees' fans "loyalty" is specious

I may not agree with the majority of his post, but I think the Yanks got the Sox when it comes to loyalty. Wells left on bad terms, came back, got a standing O to recognize his successes in pinstripes. Soriano, steps up to plate, hits home run, gets applause. AS soon as Clemens came off the mound at his last game in Fenway, you could hear the boo's, don't tell me you couldn't.... If you want to see our loyalty to our players, especially our home grown players, go into any Beltran or Garcia thread and look at the people who absolutly want to hang on to Navarro, Cano, Prinze, Duncan... Guys who haven't really proved anything yet, who can get traded for some of the best in the game.. Not much different than Nomar and Manny for Mags and A-Rod. I live in Red Sox country, I couldn't step 2 feet in a Yankee hat without hearing something about A-Rod wearing the Red B

Irony Of It All
06-21-04, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by KingMouse


Yes.

:lol: Ok I have to admit that was funny.

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 11:20 PM
Unfortunately, I cannot easily go back and reprint or replay what was written and said during the Mo, Boggs and Clemens situations. But I think that record is pretty well known.

But as for Nomar... Let me ask you this? Was it a happy or sad day in Beantown when the A-Rod deal fell through? Were Sox fans cheering saying "Yay, we get to keep Nomar!" Or were they upset that they didn't get A-Rod? I think it was a lot more of the latter. :(

And of course fans have different opinions, they are not a monolith. But, in general, Yankee fans were VERY UPSET to see Andy go.

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


I may not agree with the majority of his post, but I think the Yanks got the Sox when it comes to loyalty. Wells left on bad terms, came back, got a standing O to recognize his successes in pinstripes. Soriano, steps up to plate, hits home run, gets applause. AS soon as Clemens came off the mound at his last game in Fenway, you could hear the boo's, don't tell me you couldn't.... If you want to see our loyalty to our players, especially our home grown players, go into any Beltran or Garcia thread and look at the people who absolutly want to hang on to Navarro, Cano, Prinze, Duncan... Guys who haven't really proved anything yet, who can get traded for some of the best in the game.. Not much different than Nomar and Manny for Mags and A-Rod. I live in Red Sox country, I couldn't step 2 feet in a Yankee hat without hearing something about A-Rod wearing the Red B


Sorry, totally disagree. Both fanbases are great.

Both give standing Os to returning players. Were there boos for Clemens? Sure -- many fans felt betrayed -- signing w/Toronto, then going to NY -- you honestly think there wouldn't have been Yanks fans booing Williams or Pettitte had they gone to the Sox? Also, along with the boos, there is always a standing ovation as well.

I don't think the stuff about Navarro et al is loyalty. First, many do want to trade them. Second, I think it's that many Yanks fans want some homegrown players to root for -- a WS is great, but a WS w/more homegrown players is better. This, obviously, is opinion, but it's an informed opinion based on what I've read here and conversations w/friends who are Yanks fans.

Re. Nomar and A-Rod, yes, many were excited about potentially gettig him. And many Yanks fans were pretty excited about getting him, too, weren't they, even though it meant trading a homegrown player? I don't think I've seen fans picketing Yankee Stadium in protest of the deal.

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Unfortunately, I cannot easily go back and reprint or replay what was written and said during the Mo, Boggs and Clemens situations. But I think that record is pretty well known.

But as for Nomar... Let me ask you this? Was it a happy or sad day in Beantown when the A-Rod deal fell through? Were Sox fans cheering saying "Yay, we get to keep Nomar!" Or were they upset that they didn't get A-Rod? I think it was a lot more of the latter. :(

And of course fans have different opinions, they are not a monolith. But, in general, Yankee fans were VERY UPSET to see Andy go.


No, the record is not well known. Fans did not run any of the 1st 3 player out of town; Duquette did (at least Vaughn and Clemens), but he isn't "the fans," is he? And what was written? Well, that's the print media, isn't it?

Re. Nomar -- no idea-- wasn't there -- I'd imagine it was mixed.

So, let me ask you this? Was it a happy day or sad day in the Apple when the ARod deal went through? Were Yanks fans jeering, decrying the Yankee organization for trading away its prized "homegrown" 2B? Or were they excited that they did get A-Rod? I think it, too, was mixed, but more of the latter. :(

Re. Pettitte, I'm sure many were upset to see him leave. But there was a tremendous amount written here criticizing him, his family, etc.

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 11:30 PM
So Boston fans value Nomar as much as the Yankee fans value Soriano?? Is that what you're saying?

The proper comparison would be Jeter for A-Rod not Alfonso Soriano for A-Rod.

And there were many threads on the Yankees board about "Would you trade Jeter for A-Rod" and the answers were always a resounding "No."

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by cubswin



Sorry, totally disagree. Both fanbases are great.

Both give standing Os to returning players. Were there boos for Clemens? Sure -- many fans felt betrayed -- signing w/Toronto, then going to NY -- you honestly think there wouldn't have been Yanks fans booing Williams or Pettitte had they gone to the Sox? Also, along with the boos, there is always a standing ovation as well.

I don't think the stuff about Navarro et al is loyalty. First, many do want to trade them. Second, I think it's that many Yanks fans want some homegrown players to root for -- a WS is great, but a WS w/more homegrown players is better. This, obviously, is opinion, but it's an informed opinion based on what I've read here and conversations w/friends who are Yanks fans.

Re. Nomar and A-Rod, yes, many were excited about potentially gettig him. And many Yanks fans were pretty excited about getting him, too, weren't they, even though it meant trading a homegrown player? I don't think I've seen fans picketing Yankee Stadium in protest of the deal.


Well I was pretty young, but wasn't Duquette the GM? I thought he felt Clemens was done and wouldn't give him a reasonable deal........ How the hell did Clemens betray the Sox. If he was on the staff for his career, the Sox win the 99 World Series

Many were against trading for A-Rod as well. Many felt the stats were not that different, but salary was. If it was Jeter for A-Rod, then I have a feeling there could have been some picketing, not sure, and will never kno, but I'd bet on it.

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
So Boston fans value Nomar as much as the Yankee fans value Soriano?? Is that what you're saying?

The proper comparison would be Jeter for A-Rod not Alfonso Soriano for A-Rod.

And there were many threads on the Yankees board about "Would you trade Jeter for A-Rod" and the answers were always a resounding "No."


No - much more. But the only comparison that can be made is Nomar-Soriano. Of course Jeter would be a better one, but it can't be made. It would be interesting, however, if, say, Jeter had demanded a trade after they got A-Rod, or for a more apt comparison, Jeter expected similar $$$ for his next contract as he currently makes, turned down market offers and had an agent who (authorized or not) requested a trade, and the Yanks then explored a deal for one of the best players in the game. I have a feeliong that many Yanks fans would in fact prefer getting the best player in the game rather than lose Jeter to FA due to his $ demands. But, of course, we can't really make this comparison, can we?

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by cubswin

I have a feeliong that many Yanks fans would in fact prefer getting the best player in the game rather than lose Jeter to FA due to his $ demands.

Mariano Rivera for Gagne straight up, what do you think Yankee fans say??????

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638



Well I was pretty young, but wasn't Duquette the GM? I thought he felt Clemens was done and wouldn't give him a reasonable deal........ How the hell did Clemens betray the Sox. If he was on the staff for his career, the Sox win the 99 World Series

Many were against trading for A-Rod as well. Many felt the stats were not that different, but salary was. If it was Jeter for A-Rod, then I have a feeling there could have been some picketing, not sure, and will never kno, but I'd bet on it.



Yes, he was. I don't think Clemens betrayed the Sox, but many fans do. (Just like I don't think Clemens or Pettitte betrayed the Yanks, but many fans do.)

Re. Jeter/A-Rod, if it were out of the blue, you might be right -- but that ignores the context of the potential A-Rod deal (which, tehnically, did not involve Nomar :) ). (It also ignores context of Jeter having won a seriues with the Yanks, versus Nomar not doing so.)

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Mariano Rivera for Gagne straight up, what do you think Yankee fans say??????


They say no, but that's not just "loyalty" -- look at how many people here seem to think Gagne isn't very good. Looking at it practically, however, there is a baseball argument against that deal: Rivera has proven himself over a longer time frame than Gagne and has proven himself in playoff and WS baseball.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by cubswin



They say no, but that's not just "loyalty" -- look at how many people here seem to think Gagne isn't very good. Looking at it practically, however, there is a baseball argument against that deal: Rivera has proven himself over a longer time frame than Gagne and has proven himself in playoff and WS baseball.

Rivera is older, has had injuries, Gagne is younger, maybe better than Rivera ever was..... Loyalty certainly plays a huge factor with that.

Keith Foulke for Eric Gagne straight up


On another anounymous forum, I heard a Sox fan say since Rivera could be considered for the Cy Young, so should Foulke...... So I guess he is pretty good, and Sox fans like him

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Rivera is older, has had injuries, Gagne is younger, maybe better than Rivera ever was..... Loyalty certainly plays a huge factor with that.

Keith Foulke for Eric Gagne straight up


On another anounymous forum, I heard a Sox fan say since Rivera could be considered for the Cy Young, so should Foulke...... So I guess he is pretty good, and Sox fans like him


Agreed w/all that re Rivera/Gagne, but this is not a Yankee team built for the future, it is a team built to win now. You go with the proven guy.

Foulke for Gagne? Of course. I like Foulke, but Gagne is better, and neither is proven in the postseason. (I don't hold Foulke's troubles last yr against him, b/c he had some damn good hitters to face :) )

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 11:46 PM
I find it so funny how you believe the Red Sox front office and media accounts of what transpired w/ Nomar. I thought the Boston media wasn't accurate, out to get the players?

And Nomar's behavior doesn't jibe w/ this account. If he wanted out, why does he seem so pissed off that it almost happened? I've read Nomar's accounts that he made overutures to continue negotiations, but the Red Soxs shut the door on him.

And I believe that if Jeter turned down an extension and was going into his last year and there were rumblings he'd like play for the Angels, the majority of Yankee fans would still want the team to make every effort to sign him and not get rid of him to make room for A-Rod.

And actually, isn't that what happened? The Yankees did get A-Rod, but they didn't trade Jeter for Maglio Ordonez, Beltran, etc.. They made A-Rod change positions, or no deal.

BobbyMurcerFan
06-21-04, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


Mariano Rivera for Gagne straight up, what do you think Yankee fans say?????? HECK NO!!! &po'd& :finger3:

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by cubswin



Agreed w/all that re Rivera/Gagne, but this is not a Yankee team built for the future, it is a team built to win now. You go with the proven guy.

Foulke for Gagne? Of course. I like Foulke, but Gagne is better, and neither is proven in the postseason. (I don't hold Foulke's troubles last yr against him, b/c he had some damn good hitters to face :) )

This is where the Sox fall apart when it comes to business. Its noted they don't give No Trade Clauses to their players. Although I know (or like to think) its not true, many baseball people can take it to mean that the Sox can and will trade you at any time if a better offer comes along. That doesn't click with some people when they hear loyalty and Red Sox mentioned in the same sentence

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
I find it so funny how you believe the Red Sox front office and media accounts of what transpired w/ Nomar. I thought the Boston media wasn't accurate, out to get the players?

And Nomar's behavior doesn't jibe w/ this account. If he wanted out, why does he seem so pissed off that it almost happened? I've read Nomar's accounts that he made overutures to continue negotiations, but the Red Soxs shut the door on him.

And I believe that if Jeter turned down an extension and was going into his last year and there were rumblings he'd like play for the Angels, the majority of Yankee fans would still want the team to make every effort to sign him and not get rid of him to make room for A-Rod.

And actually, isn't that what happened? The Yankees did get A-Rod, but they didn't trade Jeter for Maglio Ordonez, Beltran, etc.. They made A-Rod change positions, or no deal.


I don't claim to know what happened. But I do know what the fans believe happened, which is all that matters in this discussion. (btw, my guess is Nomar did not want out, but he wanted to stay on his own terms. His agent probably used the notion of exploring a trade, if at all, as a negotiating ploy.) And, btw, I'm sure that if you asked Sox fans, they, too, would prefer for the Sox to re-sign Nomar; I'm sure the ideal scenario, if offered to the fans, would be to make the Manny-ARod deal and keep Nomar, too.

(and btw, I'm not sure you characterized the Jeter position thing correctly: are you aware of them ever saying that ARod changes positions or no deal? as far as I know (which is very little), that simply was not on the table -- but guess what? again, that's the front office, not the fans)

Look, if you really believe that Yanks fans are more loyal than Sox fans, feel free. If you can't see that such a generalization is stupid, I certainly cannot help you. See ya.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-21-04, 11:56 PM
Look, if you really believe that Yanks fans are more loyal than Sox fans, feel free. If you can't see that such a generalization is stupid, I certainly cannot help you.

How do you feel about the Red Sox Organization and their loyalty to players (note, read my last post in this thread)

Bluesexy's daddy
06-21-04, 11:57 PM
I can't blame Sox fans for Dan Duquettes stupidity. Duquette is gone now (unfortunately for me as a YANKEES fan) so we get to see how management in Boston handles this case. I like Nomar and I respect him as a player but I think his biggest complaint should be with his AGENT! Nomar is probably not going to get 4yrs/60Megabucks in this market. I guess his agent wanted "Jeter money" for Nomar. Maybe Ramirez' contract raised expectations for Sox players. The market turned a bit and Nomar is left without a contract. As much as I like Nomar I think that a $60,000,000.00 offer was not an insult. The fans will not control Nomar's hitting any more than YANKEES fans control Jeter's hitting. If Nomar does not hit well he may not be making nearly the money he once assumed would be his. This must all be a hard pill for him to swallow but it's not the fans fault in any city.

It saddens me that kids in Boston and New York know so much about contract negotiations, players salaries and Selig's clueless ideas about "revenue streams". Call me an "idealist" but I think we need a commisioner that can present baseball as something more than an accounting ledger. As a kid I never knew what Roy White or Yaz earned and I never cared. I think I was better off for it.

cubswin
06-21-04, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


This is where the Sox fall apart when it comes to business. Its noted they don't give No Trade Clauses to their players. Although I know (or like to think) its not true, many baseball people can take it to mean that the Sox can and will trade you at any time if a better offer comes along. That doesn't click with some people when they hear loyalty and Red Sox mentioned in the same sentence



compared to an organization that fired Billy Martin 5 times? Frankly, I really don't care much about the Sox policy, or any other team's policy, on no-trade clauses; nor do I much care about any other policies they may have w/regard to contracts. That's just my personal opinion -- it's all too far removed for me to give it any thought. If a player wants to come play in a great baseball town, he can come to Boston; if he wants to get a no-trade from Detroit instead, hey, that's his choice -- no impact on me.

cubswin
06-22-04, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


How do you feel about the Red Sox Organization and their loyalty to players (note, read my last post in this thread)


problem is how you define the "organization" I hated Duquette: he put his own ego in front of the welfare of the team, imo. As long as the organization is doing what is best for the team, I'm fine with it. Loyalty would be nice, but I'm not naive enough to think that it is, or should be, a driving factor in decisions, or that it is a 2-way street. I prefer that players stay with the team, especially if they've been on the club their whole careers, but if making that happen hurts the team, so be it. That's why I admire Trot, for ex, who took a lower offer than he probably needed to in order to stay; we'll see if tek, for ex, does the same.

As far as I can tell, though, to answer your question, so far, I like Theo et al (well, not Lucchino). I think they were exploring those trades to make the team better, both this year and for the longer term. Had Nomar signed already, it never would have come about, I would imagine.

cubswin
06-22-04, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Bluesexy's daddy
...It saddens me that kids in Boston and New York know so much about contract negotiations, players salaries and Selig's clueless ideas about "revenue streams". Call me an "idealist" but .... As a kid I never knew what Roy White or Yaz earned and I never cared. I think I was better off for it.


agree 100% -- also that trades now revolve around money. Oh, well...

BobbyMurcerFan
06-22-04, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
...
Look, if you really believe that Yanks fans are more loyal than Sox fans, feel free. If you can't see that such a generalization is stupid, I certainly cannot help you. See ya. Yes I do believe that. You make distinctions between the fans, the media and the front office that I think are not nearly as strong as you claim.

The Red Sox have a history of unloading some of their most popular players. That goes back back a long way.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-22-04, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Yes I do believe that. You make distinction between the fans, the media and the front office that I think is not nearly so strong as you claim.

The Red Sox have a history of unloading some of their most popular players. That goes back back a long way.

I am drawing a blank, I am young sorry. With the exception of Ruth, could you clarify what players they dumped? And the reasons for it (we obviously know Clemens was "over the hill" and vaughn's weight was concern.) Any others

BobbyMurcerFan
06-22-04, 12:18 AM
No I was just talking about the recent Nomar fiasco, Vaughn, Clemens, Boggs, and of course Ruth.

I don't remember the details around Fred Lynn, George Scott and the great Carlton Fisk leaving. I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive, and of course, every team has let top talent leave. I just think the Bo Sox have imfamously done so.

cubswin
06-22-04, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
Yes I do believe that. You make distinctions between the fans, the media and the front office that I think are not nearly as strong as you claim...


Are you saying that I am actually the GM and have failed to carry out my duties as GM b/c I thought there was a very clear distinction?

WebsterMulligan
06-22-04, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by BobbyMurcerFan
No I was just talking about the recent Nomar fiasco, Vaughn, Clemens, Boggs, and of course Ruth.

I don't remember the details around Fred Lynn, George Scott and the great Carlton Fisk leaving. I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive, and of course, every team has let top talent leave. I just think the Bo Sox have imfamously done so.
I think Carlton Fisk was a mistake. Was'nt his contract mailed out late or something? I don't think the Red Sox planned for him to leave.

cubswin
06-22-04, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by WebsterMulligan

I think Carlton Fisk was a mistake. Was'nt his contract mailed out late or something? I don't think the Red Sox planned for him to leave.


something like that

WebsterMulligan
06-22-04, 01:04 AM
"As much as Duquette gets vilified for letting Roger Clemens and Mo Vaughn walk out the door, these moments actually pale to the departure of Fisk. What Heywood Sullivan allowed to happen in December of 1980 was such brazen ignorance and stupidity, such that only the Babe Ruth fiasco is worse in team history.

Sullivan (his "catcher" son Mark had a more distinguished Red Sox career than Heywood did, even if you leave the front office out of it) tendered Fisk and Fred Lynn their 1981 contracts two days after the deadline. Fisk and Lynn were now free agents. Lynn was traded to the Angels, but Fisk got away scot-free. The fact that Lynn never regained his "gold-dust" status away from Boston eases the stench from all this, but Fisk just left as a free agent. He signed with the ChiSox, and Boston got zilch in return"

http://redsoxbaseball.tripod.com/mag/p13.html

BobbyMurcerFan
06-22-04, 01:31 AM
Thanks. Great read. I've never held the Bagwell trade against the Sox. How do you know what a 3B in AA w/ no power and a backwards stride will turn in to? And they had Boggs. I see it the same way I see the Yankees getting rid of the Crime Dog. They had Mattingly.

Sparky Lyle I forgot about. That would have REALLY made a difference for the Sox.

Of course there was the Yankees trading away Jay Buhner, running Winfield out of town, not keeping Mike Lowell, etc.. I guess you're in the game enough, you make these kind of decisions.

Judge Mental
06-22-04, 01:56 AM
carl everett came up with the yanks didn't he?

that woulda been funny if he stuck around, btw, i'm a boston fan, and i absolutely enjoyed his tenure with the sox...i still root for that guy

HelloNewman
06-22-04, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Judge Mental
carl everett came up with the yanks didn't he?

No, if your definition of "came up" is the same as mine - meaning, made his major league debut with them. Everett was a Yankee farmhand who was taken by Florida in the 1992 expansion draft before ever playing a game with New York.