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Minime
06-13-04, 04:34 PM
Wanna hear something dumb? Rod Beck got a hold for his brilliant preformance in today's game (1/3 IP 4 ER, 3 H, 1 BB, L). A hold is credited when a pitcher gets at least 1 out and the save situation still intact when he leaves the game. Meanwhile, Tom Gordon gets NO recognition for his job (2 IP, 1 H, 0 ER)

nnysiny
06-13-04, 04:38 PM
Heredia also got a "win" for his outing

parkerstrong
06-13-04, 07:16 PM
Minime-you are wrong. To get a hold you dont need to an out. All you need to do is to have the next pitcher coming into the game be in a save situation. Check the box score(link I have). Quantrill got a hold without getting anyone out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=240612110

Evil Empire
06-13-04, 09:14 PM
I'm sorry, I don't get what a hold is...Beck still got the loss so I don't really know what this means...could someone please explain

-tz
06-13-04, 11:20 PM
According to that ESPN box score (and MLB's as well), Beck got both a hold and the loss ... :confused: Witasick got a blown save.

As, of course, did Trevor Hoffman. :P

Anto-in-Pinstripes
06-14-04, 12:31 AM
So that's it? The pitcher has to leave the game in a save situation. I always thought that the save had to be converted in order for a hold to count.

-tz
06-14-04, 12:42 AM
Yeah, it doesn't seem fair that a starting pitcher can leave with a lead and he gets nothing if the pen blows it ... but if a reliever is credited with a hold, that hold counts even if the next guy blows the lead and even if the guy who is doing the "holding" is the one who puts the eventual winning run on base ... :confused:

Anto-in-Pinstripes
06-14-04, 01:18 AM
"that hold counts even if the next guy blows the lead and even if the guy who is doing the "holding" is the one who puts the eventual winning run on base .."

I love the hold stat, but they need to change this. If you allow the tying or winning run on base (this can be debated), then no hold for you. Really now, what good is a set-up guy if he's collecting holds, but is always letting the tying runs on base?

Minime
06-14-04, 06:15 AM
this may help:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/0523/546788.html

rightfielder21
06-14-04, 06:46 AM
That helps...

But how often does a team not sign a FA reliever because his "holds"...

YankeeClemens22
06-14-04, 07:19 AM
Holds are a silly made up stat to give a bit of recognition to the set-up men. Meaningless overall, and like others have mentioned, really not something that people talk about in a pitcher's resume.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-14-04, 07:44 AM
A hold is credited when a pitcher gets at least 1 out and the save situation still intact when he leaves the game.

I always thought a hold was when a relief pitcher comes in with runners on base, and he doesn't allow the runners on base to score????? I remember Kay saying Quantrill didn't do well with HLDS because he did better coming in during the beggining of an inning, not the middle of one.

-tz
06-14-04, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Minime
this may help:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2000/0523/546788.html

When people see a guy with an "H" next to his name even though he didn't do anything right, they'll question the general credibility of the statistic, and rightly so.

Pickwick12
06-14-04, 08:24 AM
This is the first time I have encountered the hold stat. Thanks to everyone for explanation and links.
I don't think it's a very meaningful indicator of anything. I can't imagine it being a factor in anyone's career.

Nome
06-14-04, 11:28 AM
I join the great majority. Hold's are a useless stat. There can be three or more holds given to pitchers on a team in one game. I vote to scrap it.

Andy

Wheels
06-14-04, 02:25 PM
Does it really matter? In the scheme of things?

Minime
06-14-04, 03:23 PM
holds should be replaced w/ a better form of stat for set-up men. Not an average like the way that they have on Baseball Prospectus, but a hold where it would be if that person switched with the closer of that game would the outcome have been the same would he get a save.

Pickwick12
06-14-04, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Minime
holds should be replaced w/ a better form of stat for set-up men. Not an average like the way that they have on Baseball Prospectus, but a hold where it would be if that person switched with the closer of that game would the outcome have been the same would he get a save.

That is a good idea.

NYYRules#1
06-14-04, 06:07 PM
I think we everyone agrees that hold are useless, except for set-up men racking them up.

DannyCaterFan
06-14-04, 06:38 PM
I pour over box scores every day because I have no life and love baseball. I have often wondered what the "H" meant and now I know (I think). :)

LeapsNbounds
06-14-04, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by -tz
According to that ESPN box score (and MLB's as well), Beck got both a hold and the loss ... :confused: Witasick got a blown save.

As, of course, did Trevor Hoffman. :P

I love the fact that there were 2 blown saves!!

Quick
06-14-04, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by -tz
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When people see a guy with an "H" next to his name even though he didn't do anything right, they'll question the general credibility of the statistic, and rightly so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Every pitcher in any position gets unworthy stats in a long season. That's just the way it is.

We all know that a pitcher who enters the game with his team winning or losing and doesn't allow the other team to score is effective. It doesn't matter what his efforts get labeled. Labels mean nothing.

JeffWeaverFan
06-15-04, 01:33 PM
For the record Tom Gordon does lead the league this season with 18 holds. Seems like a pretty useless stat to me also. Here's another article about it.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20040615&content_id=770806&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp

LeapsNbounds
06-16-04, 05:40 PM
Gabe white got a hold last night, further evidence of the pointlessness of holds

-tz
06-16-04, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by LeapsNbounds
Gabe white got a hold last night, further evidence of the pointlessness of holds But Gabe actually did what he was supposed to, for once ... ;)

patrick.o
06-16-04, 06:45 PM
My biggest problem with holds is that it's not an official stat and therefore different people record it differently. Some places say you need to record at least one out, others don't. Some places say you can't let a run score, others don't care as long as you don't give up the lead. ESPN.com contradicts themselves by saying that you have to record at least one out, and then awards holds even when a guy doesn't record an out.

I like the general idea of the hold because I think it gives you a decent idea of how effective a setup guy is in close games, but until MLB makes it an official stat and gives it a singular definition I won't put too much stock in it. (Even if they do I won't put too much stock in it - holds, saves, wins, and losses are all a bit too arbirary for my liking)