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cubswin
06-12-04, 12:21 AM
Blown saves: if you come into a save situation and don't get a save, is it automatially a blown save? I was curious when watching the Sox game: Foulke got 2 quick outs (1 K), gave up an infield single, then Manny misplayed a wind-blown popup/fly ball, and the runner came around to score. I see in the box score that it is a blown save -- tough one to take (not that it matters).

Anyway, just curious.

sorigirl
06-12-04, 12:24 AM
I'm pretty sure.
Even if the team comes back to win afterward, it's a blown save.

cubswin
06-12-04, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by sorigirl
I'm pretty sure.
Even if the team comes back to win afterward, it's a blown save.



The results after have no bearing, I'm pretty sure. I'm more curious re. def'n -- I assume it's as simple as save situation, no save = blown save. Just like he'd have gotten the loss had it been a 0-0 game and they didn't come back, even though he may not have "deserved" a loss.

sorigirl
06-12-04, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by cubswin

I assume it's as simple as save situation, no save = blown save.

Exactly. ;) :D

parkerstrong
06-12-04, 02:55 AM
If Timlin started the ninth inning and gave up a single and got pulled, he had a save opportunity. Since he didnt give up the lead, he gets a hold. Whoever is on the mound when the lead is blown (whether it be in the 7th, 8th, or 9th) gets a blown save. Gabe White has a blown save this year because he gave up a lead in the 7th or 8th.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-12-04, 07:44 AM
[quote]Gabe White has a blown save this year because he gave up a lead in the 7th or 8th.[/quote[


I think Flash Gordon does too because of that fiasco 8th inning in Texas when he booted 3 double play balls.

WiffleWOOD
06-12-04, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
I think Flash Gordon does too because of that fiasco 8th inning in Texas when he booted 3 double play balls.


So does Mo, in the game that he gave up the 9th inning homerun that put Anaheim up. New York came back to win in the bottom of the ninth, if memory serves me correct.

YankeePride1967
06-12-04, 09:35 AM
Bottom line, if it is a save situation when you enter, and you give up the lead, it's a blown save.

patrick.o
06-12-04, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by parkerstrong
If Timlin started the ninth inning and gave up a single and got pulled, he had a save opportunity. Since he didnt give up the lead, he gets a hold. Whoever is on the mound when the lead is blown gets a blown save.
Are you sure about that? If Timlin started the inning in a save situation and gave up a single, and then he got pulled and Foulke came in and let the runner score to tie the game, Foulke would get the BS and not Timlin? If Timlin started the inning with a tie score and the same events happened he'd get the loss. For some reason I was under the impression that a blown save was awarded the same way - his runner scored, therefore the blown save is his.

Soriambi
06-12-04, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by patrick.o

Are you sure about that? If Timlin started the inning in a save situation and gave up a single, and then he got pulled and Foulke came in and let the runner score to tie the game, Foulke would get the BS and not Timlin? If Timlin started the inning with a tie score and the same events happened he'd get the loss. For some reason I was under the impression that a blown save was awarded the same way - his runner scored, therefore the blown save is his.

No, I believe he's right, the blown save would be Foulke's. I think he's right in saying whoever's on the mound when the lead is lost gets the BS. Let's say Timlin had loaded the bases with no one out and the Sox up by one, and then Francona brought in Foulke, and the batter hits a Grand Slam to win the game. Timlin would get the loss, but Foulke gets the blown save, I believe. It's something that makes Eric Gagne's streak even more impressive.

Doc's Private Stash
06-12-04, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by patrick.o

Are you sure about that? If Timlin started the inning in a save situation and gave up a single, and then he got pulled and Foulke came in and let the runner score to tie the game, Foulke would get the BS and not Timlin? If Timlin started the inning with a tie score and the same events happened he'd get the loss. For some reason I was under the impression that a blown save was awarded the same way - his runner scored, therefore the blown save is his.

Patrick, that would still be Foulke's blown save. It's kind of an irregularity in the scoring system, in that inherited runners become the responsibility of the inheriting pitcher, in effect, which isn't the case for things like wins & losses and ERA calculation. Relief statistics always have to be taken with a grain of salt because of situational issues like this, but it would definately be Foulke's BS in that situation. One of the conditions for defining a save in the rule book is that the pitcher coming into a save situation "enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces)," and when the game becomes tied after a pitcher has entered the game in said situation he assumes the responsibility (for the sake of save calculations) for the lead being lost. As such, cubswin is right, in that basically, when you enter in a save situation and don't earn a save, it's automatically a blown save.

EDIT: if you want the full rulebook info, here's the link (it's rule 10.20):
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

cubswin
06-12-04, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Doc's Private Stash


Patrick, that would still be Foulke's blown save. ... basically, when you enter in a save situation and don't earn a save, it's automatically a blown save.
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then wouldn't both ptichers get a blown save? after all, Timlin didn't earn the save, despite coming intoa save situation. Can there be more than 1 BS per game?

patrick.o
06-12-04, 12:53 PM
Thanks for the clarification fellas.

Originally posted by cubswin
then wouldn't both ptichers get a blown save? after all, Timlin didn't earn the save, despite coming intoa save situation. Can there be more than 1 BS per game?
I think that's the only part of what he wrote that he got wrong. If you enter a save situation and don't give up the lead but also don't throw the last pitch, you get a hold.

patrick.o
06-12-04, 12:57 PM
You know, looking at the scoring rules, 'hold' doesn't appear to be an official stat.

patrick.o
06-12-04, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by patrick.o
If you enter a save situation and don't give up the lead but also don't throw the last pitch, you get a hold.
Apparently I'm not quite right about that, either! Here's how Baseball Almanac (http://baseball-almanac.com/stats2.shtml) defines 'Hold' -

This pitching term was created by the people at USA Today and awards a relief pitcher who preserves the lead by not allowing any runs (earned or unearned) and passes it on to another pitcher for a save opportunity.
Holds have been tracked since 1999. Most in a season - J.C. Romero, Octovio Dotel - 33. Most in a career - Mike Remlinger - 120. I wonder how many Mo would have had in '96?

parkerstrong
06-12-04, 06:23 PM
there isnt 2 blown saves given when the lead is only lost once. if the red sox are winning and timlin lets a guy single with boston up 1 and foulke comes in and gives up a walkoff homer it is a blown save and loss for foulke. there is only 1 blown save given to a team each time the lead is lost.

but for example in todays yankee game prinz came in with a 1 run lead and runners on 1st and 3rd zero out. If the next batter hit into a DP and the runner scored from 3rd he blew a save because he gave up the lead. that is why rivera had so many blown saves last year because he often came in the game in the 8th with runners on and a tight game.

That is why the blown save is an overrated stat. It has happened to Rivera also, but Foulke didnt deserve a blown save when Manny dropped the fly ball. But that is the way the stat is kept.

parkerstrong
06-12-04, 06:25 PM
holds can also be an overrated stat. quantrill pitched to 2 guys and gave up 2 hits. but he got a hold because he didnt give up the lead.

patrick.o
06-12-04, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
then wouldn't both ptichers get a blown save?
Here's an even better question. Say it's 5-4 Sox over Yanks and Timlin comes in in the 9th and gives up a run. He gets a BS, right? Well, say the Sox then score a run in the next inning and are back up by 1. Then Foulke comes in and gives up a run. Shouldn't he get a BS, too? Shouldn't there be two blown saves awarded in that situation?

cubswin
06-12-04, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by patrick.o

Here's an even better question. Say it's 5-4 Sox over Yanks and Timlin comes in in the 9th and gives up a run. He gets a BS, right? Well, say the Sox then score a run in the next inning and are back up by 1. Then Foulke comes in and gives up a run. Shouldn't he get a BS, too? Shouldn't there be two blown saves awarded in that situation?


That's actually a situation I was thinking of. I'm going to start looking at the box scores for this stuff.

parkerstrong
06-12-04, 08:16 PM
there is two blown saves in that situation because two different pitchers gave up two different leads.

cubswin-check this box score. Alan Embree doesnt get anyone out, but gets a hold. Foulke gives up the lead and he gets a blown save. Same thing for Guadado. If you remember Hasagawa came in, gave up 2 hits didnt get anyone out. Guadado came in and let both baserunners score giving Guadado a blown save, but Hasagawa a hold. there is a blown save given to a pitcher if the pitcher isnt the pitcher of record (win or loss) and the lead is given up when they are on the mound.

In conclusion, both Embree and Hasagawa didnt get the job done but got a hold and not a blown save.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=240530102

parkerstrong
06-12-04, 08:20 PM
patrick.o-here is the situation you were talking about. I remember the game quite clearly. We scored of off K-Rod and took the lead in the eighth giving K-Rod a blown save. Rivera then gave the lead back to Anaheim, so K-Rod became the pitcher of record and Anaheim brought in Percival. Percival then gave up the lead again causing both players to get a blown save in the same game.

BTW, I doubt that K-Rod and Percival have both gotten a blown save in the same game before and I doubt it will ever happen again.

parkerstrong
06-12-04, 08:21 PM
Sorry, forgot to post the link to the box score. Here it is:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=240511110

patrick.o
06-13-04, 05:06 PM
Thanks for the links and explanations, parker. I hadn't read them until now and I was just going to link today's Yankees/Padres boxscore because sure enough there were two BS by the Padres.

The interesting thing about the boxscore (here it is (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=240613110)) is that it contradicts BaseballAlmanac's definition of a hold. Rod Beck did give up runs and even got the loss, but was still awarded a hold. And then checking ESPN's definition of a hold (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?page=stats/glossary) -
Holds. Earned when a relief pitcher enters a game in a save situation, records at least one out, and leaves the game without having given up the lead they also condratict themselves, since they gave Embee that hold when he didn't record an out. :drool:

It would be cool if MLB would make 'holds' and official stat so that there would be some sort of uniformity to it's application.

bakntime
06-13-04, 06:44 PM
A blown save is as simple as this (I think :lol: ):

You come into the game with a save opportunity and your team ends up losing the lead while you're on the mound.