PDA

View Full Version : Pedro and Free Agency



cfkell
06-10-04, 01:13 PM
Now, I know this would never happen, but wouldn't it be awesome and hilarious if we signed Pedro this off-season then just relegated him to the Staten Island Yankees for the duration of his contract.

There's no way I want Pedro on our team, but I certainly don't want him on the Red Sox either. It's the perfect solution.

Irony Of It All
06-10-04, 01:14 PM
No...

Brent
06-10-04, 01:14 PM
Sign and trade him to the brewers.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 01:17 PM
He will never sign with the Yankees. Its moot.

Pickwick12
06-10-04, 01:19 PM
Hey, maybe we could get him in place of Contreras......:lol:

cfkell
06-10-04, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Pickwick12
Hey, maybe we could get him in place of Contreras......


Haha, well I certainly hear that.

RSN
06-10-04, 02:05 PM
He sure looked good the other night...8 innings pitched 2 hits 1 walk...very un-contreras like if you ask me (a biased red sox fan)!

Irony Of It All
06-10-04, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Pickwick12
Hey, maybe we could get him in place of Contreras......:lol:

Can't we just put Pedro's pitching smarts in Contreras?

Pickwick12
06-10-04, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All


Can't we just put Pedro's pitching smarts in Contreras?


An Idea!!!
I'm sure George Steinbrenner could pay to have someone do that :evil:

Doc's Private Stash
06-10-04, 02:12 PM
Hey, that's a winning idea there, cfkell...I hear Cashman's looking for a new assistant, you should check it out.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 02:12 PM
Pedro once said George couldn't pay to have fear put in his heart, but could he pay to have his brain put in Contreras' head? Hmmmm...

NYYFAN
06-10-04, 02:25 PM
I pray the Sox sign him to a hugh fat mega million deal...

Chairman-of-TheBoard
06-10-04, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by NYYFAN
I pray the Sox sign him to a hugh fat mega million deal...

Some poor SOB is going to do just that and end up regretting it. Though Pedro's dominance is over, I think he has 2 more mildly dominant (akin to 2003's #'s) years in him. However, you know someone (maybe even Baaaastan) will give him something closer to a 5-6 year deal.

My official prediction is that The Houston Astros will sign Pedro. Don't ask my why, I just have a feeling Schilling will take-on the role Pedro used to occupy: sole staff ace.

Kulish29
06-10-04, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
He will never sign with the Yankees. Its moot.

And you know this how?

Wheels
06-10-04, 03:22 PM
Just a question, but why do red sox fans post on a yankees message board? Are they still that obsessed with everything the yankees do?

brown_is_a_badass
06-10-04, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Brent
Sign and trade him to the brewers.
i love that idea

MikeN
06-10-04, 03:25 PM
A return to the National League would actually be in Pedro's best interests as a pitcher. Even with his arm troubles I'd think he has as much gas left in his tank as Roger Clemens. A team like the Giants would really benefit from adding a pitcher of his caliber to their 1-deep rotation.

brown_is_a_badass
06-10-04, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
He will never sign with the Yankees. Its moot.
thats wrong if the yankees offer him more money than boston he'd run here faster than you can say grady little

whalers
06-10-04, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Wheels
Just a question, but why do red sox fans post on a yankees message board? Are they still that obsessed with everything the yankees do?

yes. i think sometimes they care more about the yankees losing then the pink sox winning.

brown_is_a_badass
06-10-04, 03:32 PM
the yankees are not only in the heads of all boston fans they are in the heads of the city

ForceFive
06-10-04, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
He will never sign with the Yankees. Its moot.

Never say never.

Muaaahahahahahahahahaaaaa!

;)

incarnadine
06-10-04, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Wheels
Just a question, but why do red sox fans post on a yankees message board? Are they still that obsessed with everything the yankees do?

This is a pretty good board with a high signal/noise ratio.

For my part, I like reading Wakes and NDBoston and others. I'm secure enough in my knowledge of the game and my affection for my team that I don't have to surround myself only with those who are like-minded.

kennyl
06-10-04, 03:55 PM
A lot of us post on their boards as well........sometimes it beats patting each other on the back all day so I go over their to see how the other half lives......it's a lonely place. they speak a different language....they refer to some dominican pitcher as "Petey".....it's all very strange.......Cowboy Dead

NYYFAN
06-10-04, 03:58 PM
And as the Yankee lead grows the Boston fans thin out...happens every year...:D

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive


Never say never.

Muaaahahahahahahahahaaaaa!

;)

You're right, I was too dismissive in my earlier statement. My gut feeling is just that if he leaves the Sox, it won't be for the Yankees. The guy has spent the past however many years battling the Yanks to try and win a championship, and Pedro is such a competitor, I cannot possibly imagine him just deciding to go to the other side like that.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by whalers


yes. i think sometimes they care more about the yankees losing then the pink sox winning.

And I think the same could be said vice versa, as you can read in any Sox game thread in Around the Majors. Most fans consider a Sox/Yankee loss (depending on who you root for) second best to a Yankee/Sox win (again, depending on who you root for), but I definately think that all fans are concerned with their own teams' success first and foremost.
As for why I post here, I like the baseball discussion, whether it be Sox, Yanks, or whoever else in the league.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by MikeN
A return to the National League would actually be in Pedro's best interests as a pitcher. Even with his arm troubles I'd think he has as much gas left in his tank as Roger Clemens. A team like the Giants would really benefit from adding a pitcher of his caliber to their 1-deep rotation.

If Pedro leaves the Sox I think this is more likely. Especially since Pedro has said he'd play for Felipe Alou for free.

pacewon
06-10-04, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by NYYFAN
I pray the Sox sign him to a hugh fat mega million deal...

Me too. Let him pitch in front of Wild Card Nation for 4 more years or so.

Pickwick12
06-10-04, 04:09 PM
I think he will finish his career with the Sox; I can't see him leaving.

Also, welcome to fans of all teams. Dissent keeps life interesting.

Rich
06-10-04, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by NYYFAN
I pray the Sox sign him to a hugh fat mega million deal...

George will likely get into the bidding to ensure that.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:18 PM
Honest to God, I don't think it will come down to specific dollars. It will certainly take X amount to keep him, but I do not necessarily think that Pedro is only going to go to that team which offers him the most money. I think there is a good chance that if the Sox meet a certain number (anyones guess what that is yet), even if its less than other teams, Pedro very well may re-sign.

NYYFAN
06-10-04, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Rich


George will likely get into the bidding to ensure that.

As long as George does not sign him I'm all for it...:evil: :D

CAYanksfan
06-10-04, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by MikeN
A return to the National League would actually be in Pedro's best interests as a pitcher. Even with his arm troubles I'd think he has as much gas left in his tank as Roger Clemens. A team like the Giants would really benefit from adding a pitcher of his caliber to their 1-deep rotation.

Here's the difference between those two - Pedro is tailing off at 32, Clemens is 41.

pacewon
06-10-04, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by NYYFAN


As long as George does not sign him I'm all for it...:evil: :D

Definitely. Run that price up

CAYanksfan
06-10-04, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


Definitely. Run that price up

Boston owes us, they ran up the price on Bernie.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by CAYanksfan


Here's the difference between those two - Pedro is tailing off at 32, Clemens is 41.

Lets wait until the season is done before we say he is tailing off.

CAYanksfan
06-10-04, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox


Lets wait until the season is done before we say he is tailing off.

Is Pedro is dominant as he was 3-4 years ago? He's not falling off a cliff, but there are no signs that he numbers will trend upwards.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by CAYanksfan


Is Pedro is dominant as he was 3-4 years ago? He's not falling off a cliff, but there are no signs that he numbers will trend upwards.

:lol: No pitcher in the history of the game had ever been as dominant as pedro was 3-4 years ago, but all things considered, I am more than happy with the three Cy Young worthy seasons he has posted since. Realistic standards are key to this argument.

RSN
06-10-04, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by NYYFAN
And as the Yankee lead grows the Boston fans thin out...happens every year...:D

Yeah, fenway looks real empty....It's along season...Nomar's back, Nixon's back by next week.

BTW, the poster who wants to know why we (RS fans) post here? It's because we're baseball fans who are interested in our chief rivals fans. There are numerous Yankee fans who post on Redsoxnation.net.

Ludicrous posts like "as the Yankee lead grows..." don't happen over there. We respect other teams' fans. Do you really believe that we "thin out"? You should have seen Yankee stadium in the late eighties. It was a ghost town. Danny Tartubull and Roberto Kelly send their best. Give me a break, the sox finish in last, fenway's packed. If I had a dime for every moron I run into, and believe me, I know it's none who post here, with a Yankee hat on because it's "trendy", I'd be a millionaire...oh wait, I already am.

Irony Of It All
06-10-04, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by RSN


Yeah, fenway looks real empty....It's along season...Nomar's back, Nixon's back by next week.

He was talking about Red Sox fans posting here.

incarnadine
06-10-04, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by RSN

Yeah, fenway looks real empty....It's along season...Nomar's back, Nixon's back by next week.

... I'd be a millionaire...oh wait, I already am.

1. I think he meant you see fewer Red Sox fans on this board.

2. Congrats on having money.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 04:35 PM
So getting back to Pedro....

Irony Of It All
06-10-04, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
So getting back to Pedro....

I think he'll most likely resign with Boston, but if he doesn't I see the Angels and Giants as the top suitors.

RSN
06-10-04, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All


He was talking about Red Sox fans posting here.

You people must have some kind of "Yankee speak" that we mere mortals can't understand...God I hope it's not like an internal Michael Kay monologue...

If that's what he meant, he's probably correct.

RSN
06-10-04, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by incarnadine


1. I think he meant you see fewer Red Sox fans on this board.

2. Congrats on having money.

2. I don't really have money, I thought it would be nice for people to think so, if only for a moment.

RSN
06-10-04, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All


I think he'll most likely resign with Boston, but if he doesn't I see the Angels and Giants as the top suitors.

He's already said he knows he won't be paid what he's being paid now...He'll settle for between 13-16 million...3-4 year deal...3 year 40 million sounds like something the sox will pay...If he goes way north of that in years or cash....It ain't gonna happen.

Woodshed42
06-10-04, 04:53 PM
I'm surpised the Red Sox didn't lock him up to a long-term deal instead of picking up his 17.5 million dollar option for this year.

Anyway, if he the Sox allow him to enter free agency (after Nov. 7th?), the Angels become the front-runners.

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-10-04, 04:58 PM
The Red Sox are going to sign AT LEAST one or the other with Nomar and Pedro..and now I've heard rumors that both are going to NY. Well, something tells me Pedro and most of the guys on the Yankees (see: telling Posada he will drill him in the head) aren't having a great relationship at this point. And do the Yankees really need another SS playing out of posistion. Nomar will not play second. I think we re-sign both and let Varitek and Lowe walk.

pacewon
06-10-04, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by RSN
Yeah, fenway looks real empty....It's along season...Nomar's back, Nixon's back by next week.

BTW, the poster who wants to know why we (RS fans) post here? It's because we're baseball fans who are interested in our chief rivals fans. There are numerous Yankee fans who post on Redsoxnation.net.

Ludicrous posts like "as the Yankee lead grows..." don't happen over there. We respect other teams' fans. Do you really believe that we "thin out"? You should have seen Yankee stadium in the late eighties. It was a ghost town. Danny Tartubull and Roberto Kelly send their best. Give me a break, the sox finish in last, fenway's packed. If I had a dime for every moron I run into, and believe me, I know it's none who post here, with a Yankee hat on because it's "trendy", I'd be a millionaire...oh wait, I already am.

I believe he was referring to Sox fans thinning out from this forum as the season goes on, not Sox fans thinning out from Fenway. And believe me, he's right... every August the number of Sox fans who actively post here mysteriously drop like flies

Sorry to get off topic, had to clear that up though

CAYanksfan
06-10-04, 05:04 PM
Doesn't this thread belong in Around the Majors?

pacewon
06-10-04, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49
The Red Sox are going to sign AT LEAST one or the other with Nomar and Pedro..and now I've heard rumors that both are going to NY.

As a Yanks fan, I hope neither are.


Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49
Well, something tells me Pedro and most of the guys on the Yankees (see: telling Posada he will drill him in the head) aren't having a great relationship at this point.

But I thought he wasn't telling Posada he'd hit him in the head, Sox fans always tell me he was saying "use your head"... :lol: I'm just joking, we're not going there.


Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49
I think we re-sign both and let Varitek and Lowe walk.

I would love it if Varitek walked out of there. Love love love love love it.

pacewon
06-10-04, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by CAYanksfan
Doesn't this thread belong in Around the Majors?

Yes

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-10-04, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


As a Yanks fan, I hope neither are.



But I thought he wasn't telling Posada he'd hit him in the head, Sox fans always tell me he was saying "use your head"... :lol: I'm just joking, we're not going there.



I would love it if Varitek walked out of there. Love love love love love it.

Lo Duca is a FA too, and can be had for cheaper. If we can get Varitek for the right price, I would love for him to stay, but I would rather have Nomar/Pedro.

pacewon
06-10-04, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49


Lo Duca is a FA too, and can be had for cheaper. If we can get Varitek for the right price, I would love for him to stay, but I would rather have Nomar/Pedro.

I'm of the belief that you guys will bring back Varitek and Pedro. Lowe and Nomar gone. I'll be surprised if it doesn't turn out that way.

NYYFAN
06-10-04, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by Irony Of It All


He was talking about Red Sox fans posting here.

100% correct...

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-10-04, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


I'm of the belief that you guys will bring back Varitek and Pedro. Lowe and Nomar gone. I'll be surprised if it doesn't turn out that way.

Lowe is definatley out. We have a catcher in Kelly Shoppach that should be ready in a year or two. So, I don't think Tek will be their first priority (I would try hard to get Tek, but this ownership has a different mindset). Nomar and Pedro don't have guys in the minors ready to take over for them, and I really think they are almost irreplaceable. These are guys we need to keep.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 05:40 PM
I think Varitek will stay. Despite having Boras as his agent, he strikes me as a guy that wants to remain in Boston, so assuming he is given a reasonable offer, I think he'll accept.

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-10-04, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
I think Varitek will stay. Despite having Boras as his agent, he strikes me as a guy that wants to remain in Boston, so assuming he is given a reasonable offer, I think he'll accept.

I hope this is the case, I'm just worried about overpaying him and then not having the money to sign Pedro and Nomar. Believe me, I like Tek, and I'm really liking that .400 OBP this year.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-10-04, 05:50 PM
On the subject of Tek- most seem to agree that he will make a great manager someday given all of the research he puts in as well as how smart he is. I would love for him to catch a few more years and then assume the reins as Sox manager.

bdicer
06-10-04, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by RSN


Yeah, fenway looks real empty....It's along season...Nomar's back, Nixon's back by next week.

BTW, the poster who wants to know why we (RS fans) post here? It's because we're baseball fans who are interested in our chief rivals fans. There are numerous Yankee fans who post on Redsoxnation.net.

Ludicrous posts like "as the Yankee lead grows..." don't happen over there. We respect other teams' fans. Do you really believe that we "thin out"? You should have seen Yankee stadium in the late eighties. It was a ghost town. Danny Tartubull and Roberto Kelly send their best. Give me a break, the sox finish in last, fenway's packed. If I had a dime for every moron I run into, and believe me, I know it's none who post here, with a Yankee hat on because it's "trendy", I'd be a millionaire...oh wait, I already am.

I went to visit www.redsoxnation.net, but accidently went to www.redsoxnation.com. I found the main focus of the homepage to be pretty funny.

""Rooting for the Yankees is like rooting for the house in blackjack." -- fan e-mail to Bill Simmons

"Dealing with Steinbrenner must be similar to the way George Bailey felt toward Mr. Potter in It's a Wonderful Life." - Buck Showalter

"I guess I hate the Yankees now," Curt Schilling.

"Go home. Have a nice offseason. We're going to have a parade." --Josh Beckett, to Yankee fans following Game 6 of the 2003 World Series

"Jeter has made more than $800,000 this week and has gone 1-30." -- Posted on NYFans.com after the Weekend Seeep, 4/25/04, by Nick Papagorgio, Member.

"If the Sox lose out on another World Series with Christ playing center field, it's clearly not happening in my lifetime." Bill Simmons"

80+ years of pent up frustration :)

YankeePride1967
06-10-04, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by RSN
He sure looked good the other night...8 innings pitched 2 hits 1 walk...very un-contreras like if you ask me (a biased red sox fan)!

and how about the start before that? He has been very up and down this year.

CAYanksfan
06-10-04, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox
On the subject of Tek- most seem to agree that he will make a great manager someday given all of the research he puts in as well as how smart he is. I would love for him to catch a few more years and then assume the reins as Sox manager.

I could see that happening. The conventional wisdom is that catchers generally make better managers because they can relate to everyone in the clubhouse - position players and pitchers. If Tek's approach is in-line with the current Red Sox braintrust, then he might start in the minor leagues upon retirement.

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-10-04, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


and how about the start before that? He has been very up and down this year.

I just can't see Pedro pitching like this for the rest of the year. I think he will settle down and have a string of 10 very good starts to get his ERA back under 3. My reasoning for this is that this is what he has done every other year. Even though his velocity is down a little bit (last two games hes clocked in at 94, not bad at all), he still knows how to pitch. And his changeup and curveball are still among the best in the game.

RhodeyYankee2638
06-10-04, 06:39 PM
I just can't see Pedro pitching like this for the rest of the year. I think he will settle down and have a string of 10 very good starts to get his ERA back under 3. My reasoning for this is that this is what he has done every other year. Even though his velocity is down a little bit (last two games hes clocked in at 94, not bad at all), he still knows how to pitch. And his changeup and curveball are still among the best in the game.

I agree, but I will also state that like it or not, Pedro is a very smart pitcher. He could probably pitch very well with an 88-89 fastball and his curve and change and still be an effective pitcher.

cubswin
06-10-04, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


and how about the start before that? He has been very up and down this year.



not really -- check his game log. about as up and down as vazquez and brown. (ie, 3 bad starts, but mostly good/great ones)

cubswin
06-10-04, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Wheels
Just a question, but why do red sox fans post on a yankees message board? Are they still that obsessed with everything the yankees do?


Yes. Sox fans obsessed. In fact, they start all the Sox-related threads on this site...

RhodeyYankee2638
06-10-04, 06:46 PM
not really -- check his game log. about as up and down as vazquez and brown. (ie, 3 bad starts, but mostly good/great ones)

I agree about Brown being up and down, but Javy had a couple bad starts, but has been solid his past 4 or 5 starts

WakefieldsKnuckler49
06-10-04, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638


I agree about Brown being up and down, but Javy had a couple bad starts, but has been solid his past 4 or 5 starts

I believe his statement was to say that none of them were up and down, that they just had a few bad starts and the rest of them were fine.

WebsterMulligan
06-10-04, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by RhodeyYankee2638
I agree, but I will also state that like it or not, Pedro is a very smart pitcher. He could probably pitch very well with an 88-89 fastball and his curve and change and still be an effective pitcher.
He'll probably change his game plan to be similar to that of Greg Maddox. He definitely has an arsenal of pitches so that he does'nt have to rely on his fastball and still be effective. I'm not going to make any predictions on Pedro. Time will tell.

cubswin
06-10-04, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsKnuckler49


I believe his statement was to say that none of them were up and down, that they just had a few bad starts and the rest of them were fine.


Yup. Go into each gamelog, count bad and good/great games. Pretty much even by my count. (Vazquez might have 1 more good game, Brown 1 worse.)

the_coach
06-10-04, 07:17 PM
<i>Please</i>, forget Peedro! He <b>may</b> have another year left, let him be someone elses problem.

Move on!

YankeePride1967
06-10-04, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by cubswin




not really -- check his game log. about as up and down as vazquez and brown. (ie, 3 bad starts, but mostly good/great ones)

So in other words, not undeniably the best pitcher in baseball as he was in 99-01 which has been my point all along.

pacewon
06-10-04, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
not really -- check his game log. about as up and down as vazquez and brown. (ie, 3 bad starts, but mostly good/great ones)

But by Pedro's standards, he has been up and down. You have to keep in mind that Yankee fans are used to looking at the game log and seeing 7 IP, 1 ER, for nearly every friggin start. He's had 3 starts already this year where he allowed more earned runs than innings pitched. He had 2 all of last season.

One thing I'm also curious how Sox fans feel about is the amount of innings being put on his arm; he has 83.2 IP this season which puts him on pace for 234 in a full season. This is a guy who hasn't hit 200 IP in a season in 4 years, and 238 IP would be the second highest total of his career. We all know how fragile he is; are you worried that he will be gassed come September/October?

Wrigley
06-10-04, 09:44 PM
pace, that has only been 6.4 innings per start, which is where he's been around the last 3 seasons. People make such a big deal over the 200 IP thing... it isn't an Inning issue, it's the amount of starts that he makes. If he goes on pitching 6.4 each start on average and makes 32 for the season, he'll have over 200 IP. It isn't a big deal.. I wish people would just shut the hell up. I'd rather have 187 innings of 2.22 ERA pitching than 200 of 3.98 ERA pitching... but he isn't going to stay that high.

No, he'll lead the league in ERA yet again because nobody is even close to him in the American League. This is what, the 3rd shell of Pedro's former self, and still, nobody is even close. Nobody is going to be. 2.92 is where the leader is at.... that is a piece of friggin CAKE.

On that note, Pedro should goto San Francisco under Alou and play in in a pitcher friendly park for once. I'd just love to see Pedro's numbers from 1998 to 2003 would've been if he had stayed in the NL and had Alou as his manager during his prime. His ERA would probably be about half a run lower each season and he'd have twice the amount of complete games (this is during his prime 98-01). He'd also probably be finished, but the numbers would be so unreal.

When October rolls around, whether he's gased or not, he's going to get up for the big games. You'll see him throwing 95 mph again, only this time he may actually mix in some off speed pitches and not let his ego take control. He'll also WIN if he does this.

Wrigley
06-10-04, 09:55 PM
And another thing for the Pedro-doubters...

As up and down as Pedro has been this season (Not really... 9 Quality starts and the league lead in K's), he hadn't thrown 94 mph multiple times in back-to-back starts until his previous two. The only other time I remember was the start against the Yankees last April when he threw a couple in there at 93 mph to Posada. Maybe he's realizing that if he wants the big pay check, he's going to have to let it air out and see where he ends up. He'll be in the money if his control keeps improving, and alot of those homers on mis-located 89 mph fastballs will be foul balls when they are coming in at 93-94.

YankeePride1967
06-10-04, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Wrigley
pace, that has only been 6.4 innings per start, which is where he's been around the last 3 seasons. People make such a big deal over the 200 IP thing... it isn't an Inning issue, it's the amount of starts that he makes. If he goes on pitching 6.4 each start on average and makes 32 for the season, he'll have over 200 IP. It isn't a big deal.. I wish people would just shut the hell up. I'd rather have 187 innings of 2.22 ERA pitching than 200 of 3.98 ERA pitching... but he isn't going to stay that high.

No, he'll lead the league in ERA yet again because nobody is even close to him in the American League. This is what, the 3rd shell of Pedro's former self, and still, nobody is even close. Nobody is going to be. 2.92 is where the leader is at.... that is a piece of friggin CAKE.

On that note, Pedro should goto San Francisco under Alou and play in in a pitcher friendly park for once. I'd just love to see Pedro's numbers from 1998 to 2003 would've been if he had stayed in the NL and had Alou as his manager during his prime. His ERA would probably be about half a run lower each season and he'd have twice the amount of complete games (this is during his prime 98-01). He'd also probably be finished, but the numbers would be so unreal.

When October rolls around, whether he's gased or not, he's going to get up for the big games. You'll see him throwing 95 mph again, only this time he may actually mix in some off speed pitches and not let his ego take control. He'll also WIN if he does this.

The playoffs pose another issue, normally when he throws a high pitch count game or a high stress game, they give him an extra day's rest and often try to do that anyway. Last year he had to make four starts on normal rest after such starts and the results were less than stellar. No one is saying he's done, just that he isn't automatic as he used to be. I used to turn a game on when he's pitching and see the Sox up 1-0 and think the game is over, now I don't.

Wrigley
06-10-04, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


The playoffs pose another issue, normally when he throws a high pitch count game or a high stress game, they give him an extra day's rest and often try to do that anyway. Last year he had to make four starts on normal rest after such starts and the results were less than stellar. No one is saying he's done, just that he isn't automatic as he used to be.

Yes, Pedro also may have been hurt in the postseason last year. We really don't know, but he sure wasn't the same guy he had been when he put on that spectacular September. His outings in Oakland were good enough to win BOTH times, if that happened was another story. Game 7 was just down right gritty.

"So he isn't undeniably the best pitcher in baseball anymore."

- I see that as a compliment, whether you thought of it that way when you posted it, I don't know but it clearly states how unbelievable he's been... when a guy isn't UNDENIABLY the best in the game anymore... Wow, it's like, so how great has he been?


I used to turn a game on when he's pitching and see the Sox up 1-0 and think the game is over, now I don't.

How funny you should mention that... Just this past Tuesday the Red Sox won 1-0 with Pedro throwing 8 innings of shutout ball. The game was over. :)

Mo_04
06-10-04, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


But by Pedro's standards, he has been up and down. You have to keep in mind that Yankee fans are used to looking at the game log and seeing 7 IP, 1 ER, for nearly every friggin start. He's had 3 starts already this year where he allowed more earned runs than innings pitched. He had 2 all of last season.

One thing I'm also curious how Sox fans feel about is the amount of innings being put on his arm; he has 83.2 IP this season which puts him on pace for 234 in a full season. This is a guy who hasn't hit 200 IP in a season in 4 years, and 238 IP would be the second highest total of his career. We all know how fragile he is; are you worried that he will be gassed come September/October?

Pedro has been less than stellar most of this year so far. He did not look like the same pitcher in a lot of different ways. But last outing, he looked his old self of last year and 02'. And last year was extremely good. I don't think anyone expects him to stay near the e.r.a. he has right now, nor be as up and down as a normal pitcher might be. I expect him to be fairly close to the pitcher he was last year. And when i check the red sox scores, i DO expect him to hold the lead when he's on the mound. As he almost always does. It was wierd to see him struggling. I've never noticed him ever have any type of mechanical problems. Simply never heard of him ever having any. I think this bad start is a thing of the past, and will have absolutely no correlation to the rest of his season. I think he's basically the same guy as last year. Pedro's been so good in his career, that even a few rough starts can be more than you would expect from him in an entire year. It's interesting to note that pedro has given up 2 more homeruns than he did ALL of last year already. And he's not leading the league in homeruns allowed or anything... He simply did not give up homeruns last year lol. Not even 1 HR to a righty. That's pretty impressive.

Oh, and i might not have made the point of my post all that clear. My point is that for most of the year, the real pedro wasn't around. I think well see what type of pitcher he REALLY is this year in his next few starts.

Wrigley
06-10-04, 11:08 PM
He's going up against another team that doesn't see him at all on Sunday, I expect Pedro to have a very similar type of outing to the one he threw against San Diego. The killer instinct... the fastballs, the glare, the leg swinging around violently... pretty much all the stuff we hadn't seen all season with the exception of his most recent start.

cubswin
06-11-04, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket


So in other words, not undeniably the best pitcher in baseball as he was in 99-01 which has been my point all along.


I didn't know you were making that point. I don't think anybody would ever claim he is the same pitcher he was in '99-'01.

I was just addressing your claim that he has been up and down all year. His lack of effectiveness has very much been overstated here (not just you -- in general).

cubswin
06-11-04, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by pacewon


But by Pedro's standards, he has been up and down. You have to keep in mind that Yankee fans are used to looking at the game log and seeing 7 IP, 1 ER, for nearly every friggin start. He's had 3 starts already this year where he allowed more earned runs than innings pitched. He had 2 all of last season.

One thing I'm also curious how Sox fans feel about is the amount of innings being put on his arm; he has 83.2 IP this season which puts him on pace for 234 in a full season. This is a guy who hasn't hit 200 IP in a season in 4 years, and 238 IP would be the second highest total of his career. We all know how fragile he is; are you worried that he will be gassed come September/October?


Even by Pedro standards, I'm not sure, as he has had poor starts in recent years. However, were he is doing this in July, I absolutely would agree with you. I think he has had maybe 1 more bad start this year than prior years, though I'm too lazy to look it up.

I'm not too concerned re. the innings (knock on wood). They're not leaving him in for huge pitch counts, and he's at 6+ IP per start, as in past years. Interesting question, though. I guess we'll see.

YankeePride1967
06-11-04, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by Wrigley


Yes, Pedro also may have been hurt in the postseason last year. We really don't know, but he sure wasn't the same guy he had been when he put on that spectacular September. His outings in Oakland were good enough to win BOTH times, if that happened was another story. Game 7 was just down right gritty.

"So he isn't undeniably the best pitcher in baseball anymore."

- I see that as a compliment, whether you thought of it that way when you posted it, I don't know but it clearly states how unbelievable he's been... when a guy isn't UNDENIABLY the best in the game anymore... Wow, it's like, so how great has he been?



How funny you should mention that... Just this past Tuesday the Red Sox won 1-0 with Pedro throwing 8 innings of shutout ball. The game was over. :)

Yes, but I didn't think the game was over :)

Yes he was the best player in the game, he isn't even the best player on the Sox now. (hello Curt Schilling). I think we are facing each other in the ALCS and I fear Schilling more than Pedro. How was Pedro the last outing? Not that good if memory serves. My argument is with the Sox fans who live in denial thinking he's the same pitcher as in 99-01 when the facts are undeniably the opposite.

YankeePride1967
06-11-04, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by cubswin



I didn't know you were making that point. I don't think anybody would ever claim he is the same pitcher he was in '99-'01.

I was just addressing your claim that he has been up and down all year. His lack of effectiveness has very much been overstated here (not just you -- in general).

There are a number of Sox fans that don't seem to want to admit this. I think he's had more bad games this year than in that stretch combined. Those three years your best bet was to shut Boston out through 7 and hope you outlast Pedro, now that's not necessarily the case. Still one of the top 4 pitchers in the game, but that is an undeniable drop from God-like stature.

RSox52
06-11-04, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Wheels
Just a question, but why do red sox fans post on a yankees message board? Are they still that obsessed with everything the yankees do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because we're not just Red Sox fans, we're BASEBALL fans.

cubswin
06-11-04, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket


There are a number of Sox fans that don't seem to want to admit this. ... Still one of the top 4 pitchers in the game, but that is an undeniable drop from God-like stature.



Really? I don't think I've heard one fan claim he hasn't fallen from where he was then, which was not only best in the game, but one of the best in history. No shame in a dropoff from that, especially if you keep wheeling out 2.24 ERAs, like he did last year.

FarvinMoosey
06-11-04, 11:52 AM
Not a lot of facts or figures for this one, but one thing I noticed when Schill was on the hill last night, Pedro was fun loving, smiling, joking Pedro in the dugout. Thats the first time Ive seen that all year long.

I think he knew something was wrong and couldnt pin point it. Now its reported he spotted a flaw in his mechanics, worked them out with Dave Wallace in a side session and boom....94 MPH heat and 8innings, 8ks. Im not saying every outing will be like that, but I think Pedro found what was nagging him. Pitching effectiveness is part mental, and seeing Pedro loose with his teammates again to me in part said that Pedro isnt worrying anymore. He's found his game again.

Again this is all just my opinion, but thats my thoughts right now. Now Ill be watching his next 5 starts or so to see if his stuff is as lethal.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-11-04, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


Yes, but I didn't think the game was over :)

Yes he was the best player in the game, he isn't even the best player on the Sox now. (hello Curt Schilling). I think we are facing each other in the ALCS and I fear Schilling more than Pedro. How was Pedro the last outing? Not that good if memory serves. My argument is with the Sox fans who live in denial thinking he's the same pitcher as in 99-01 when the facts are undeniably the opposite.

While I love Schilling and think he is one hell of a pitcher, I think that Pedro and Schill's numbers will be MUCH closer by the end of the year. And I agree you should fear Schilling more. Unlike most pitchers, Schilling is one of the few who can effectively pitch 3 times in a 7 game series. Mix in 1 or two starts for Pedro and 1 or 2 starts for Wake, and that is a very scary rotation for opposing hitters. I don't know where these ideas come across that Sox fans think he is the same pitcher he was then. NOONE thinks that. What many DO think is that he is the same pitcher of the past three seasons (3 Cy Young worthy seasons, each of which he has either led the league or been right at the top for ERA).

bakntime
06-11-04, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Wrigley
I wish people would just shut the hell up.

That's how I feel regarding about 98% of the population at any given moment.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-11-04, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by bakntime


That's how I feel regarding about 98% of the population at any given moment.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can I get a hallelujah???

Wrigley
06-11-04, 04:58 PM
Schilling better than Pedro? Yeah, maybe 13 starts into the season.

Pedro is going to finish with better numbers, and then we are going to be more amazed that he did it even with 3 outings allowing 6 or more ER, just like we were, or at least you should've been, with Pedro dealing out a 2.22 ERA last season despite allowing 10 ER in ONE outing.... that is ****ing unbelievable, I'm sorry. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Pedro has actually been very good this season with the exception of three starts. In the other 10, he's averaging 7 innings a start with a 1.94 ERA, 0.92 WHIP and K/BB ratio of 5.29. Another 18-20 outings is really going to even the numbers out and voila!, your ERA champ for the 5th time in six seasons, Pedro Martinez.

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-11-04, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox


While I love Schilling and think he is one hell of a pitcher, I think that Pedro and Schill's numbers will be MUCH closer by the end of the year. And I agree you should fear Schilling more. Unlike most pitchers, Schilling is one of the few who can effectively pitch 3 times in a 7 game series. Mix in 1 or two starts for Pedro and 1 or 2 starts for Wake, and that is a very scary rotation for opposing hitters. I don't know where these ideas come across that Sox fans think he is the same pitcher he was then. NOONE thinks that. What many DO think is that he is the same pitcher of the past three seasons (3 Cy Young worthy seasons, each of which he has either led the league or been right at the top for ERA).

Schilling is a horse no doubt about it but he can not "effectively" make 3 starts in a 7 game series...

Wrigley
06-11-04, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by JavyVazquezIsSick


Schilling is a horse no doubt about it but he can not "effectively" make 3 starts in a 7 game series...

2001 World Series?

He started 3 games in that series and pitched 21.1 innings of 1.69 ERA ball. If that isn't pitching effectively, I'd like to know what the hell is. He already had 283 innings on his arm for the season (including postseason). He has a 1.66 ERA in 83.2 career postseason innings. He's an ANIMAL, and I'll bet everything I own he'll pitch his heart out come October and shut the Yankees, or anyone else for that matter, DOWN.

Mo_04
06-11-04, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Wrigley
Schilling better than Pedro? Yeah, maybe 13 starts into the season.

Pedro is going to finish with better numbers, and then we are going to be more amazed that he did it even with 3 outings allowing 6 or more ER, just like we were, or at least you should've been, with Pedro dealing out a 2.22 ERA last season despite allowing 10 ER in ONE outing.... that is ****ing unbelievable, I'm sorry. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Pedro has actually been very good this season with the exception of three starts. In the other 10, he's averaging 7 innings a start with a 1.94 ERA, 0.92 WHIP and K/BB ratio of 5.29. Another 18-20 outings is really going to even the numbers out and voila!, your ERA champ for the 5th time in six seasons, Pedro Martinez.

Yeah, without that 10 run outing of his last year he would've had a sub 2 e.r.a. lol.

Wrigley
06-11-04, 10:14 PM
1.78 to be exact. :)

YankeePride1967
06-12-04, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox


While I love Schilling and think he is one hell of a pitcher, I think that Pedro and Schill's numbers will be MUCH closer by the end of the year. And I agree you should fear Schilling more. Unlike most pitchers, Schilling is one of the few who can effectively pitch 3 times in a 7 game series. Mix in 1 or two starts for Pedro and 1 or 2 starts for Wake, and that is a very scary rotation for opposing hitters. I don't know where these ideas come across that Sox fans think he is the same pitcher he was then. NOONE thinks that. What many DO think is that he is the same pitcher of the past three seasons (3 Cy Young worthy seasons, each of which he has either led the league or been right at the top for ERA).

I fear Schilling in the post season, but after 2003 not as much Pedro unless they can find a way to get him the extra day of rest. If they win the ALDS in 3 or 4 and only need him once, that will help a lot.

YankeePride1967
06-12-04, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Wrigley
Schilling better than Pedro? Yeah, maybe 13 starts into the season.

Pedro is going to finish with better numbers, and then we are going to be more amazed that he did it even with 3 outings allowing 6 or more ER, just like we were, or at least you should've been, with Pedro dealing out a 2.22 ERA last season despite allowing 10 ER in ONE outing.... that is ****ing unbelievable, I'm sorry. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Pedro has actually been very good this season with the exception of three starts. In the other 10, he's averaging 7 innings a start with a 1.94 ERA, 0.92 WHIP and K/BB ratio of 5.29. Another 18-20 outings is really going to even the numbers out and voila!, your ERA champ for the 5th time in six seasons, Pedro Martinez.

And if you take away Contrera's 6-7 bad starts, he's a good pitcher too, but you can't. THe three bad starts count. WHen was the last time Pedro played a full season to get those 18-20 starts? Hmm. After the 2001 post-season for Schilling and the absolutely horrid one for Pedro in 2003, sorry I'd take Schilling on my team any day of the week. Amazing how most Sox fans won't forgive Roger Clemens the unforgivable act of developing a blister on his hand in 1986 but Pedro who cares? How about we actually let Pedro do what you are saying before praising him for it? Pedro is still one of the top 4 pitchers of the game. He is NOT the best.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-12-04, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket

Amazing how most Sox fans won't forgive Roger Clemens the unforgivable act of developing a blister on his hand in 1986 but Pedro who cares?

GRADY GUMP. Enough said.

YankeePride1967
06-12-04, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox


GRADY GUMP. Enough said.

Did Gump allow 5 ER in Game 3 too? And it's funny, Clemens got them just as far in Game 6 in 86 but he's a quitter.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-12-04, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


Did Gump allow 5 ER in Game 3 too? And it's funny, Clemens got them just as far in Game 6 in 86 but he's a quitter.

I have no point of reference for Clemens. At 4 years of age my baseball mind was not quite as developed as it is now. Obviously Game 3 last year was not great, but my comments were only pertaining to game 7, for which I do not blame Pedro, but do blame Grady.

MaineSoxFan
06-12-04, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


Did Gump allow 5 ER in Game 3 too? And it's funny, Clemens got them just as far in Game 6 in 86 but he's a quitter.

How did Clemens come up in this discussion?

Wrigley
06-12-04, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket
And if you take away Contrera's 6-7 bad starts, he's a good pitcher too, but you can't. The three bad starts count. WHen was the last time Pedro played a full season to get those 18-20 starts? Hmm. After the 2001 post-season for Schilling and the absolutely horrid one for Pedro in 2003, sorry I'd take Schilling on my team any day of the week. Amazing how most Sox fans won't forgive Roger Clemens the unforgivable act of developing a blister on his hand in 1986 but Pedro who cares? How about we actually let Pedro do what you are saying before praising him for it? Pedro is still one of the top 4 pitchers of the game. He is NOT the best.

Uhh, there is a pretty clear difference in looking at numbers taking away three starts in comparison to 6 or 7. The post was in reference that Pedro hasn't been good this year, which is just untrue. He hasn't been his best, but he certainly hasn't been as bad as you'd like to think. He has a 3.98 ERA after 13 starts... let's see it after 29 or 30.

Yeah, you'd take Schilling. Great. The Red Sox will take both.

I don't know how Clemens got into the discussion because I don't ever remember bringing him up, or 1986 for that matter. Why don't Sox fans blame Pedro? :lol:

Mayday Malone
06-12-04, 06:39 PM
Because Clemens still lies to this day about the issue. He says that he never asked to come out, McNamara says he did. I've seen far more lying out of Clemens since 86, so I feel McNamara's view is the correct one.

Pedro wanted to stay in the game, like any gamer would. Gump should have known his pitchers after two years.

YankeePride1967
06-12-04, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Wrigley


Uhh, there is a pretty clear difference in looking at numbers taking away three starts in comparison to 6 or 7. The post was in reference that Pedro hasn't been good this year, which is just untrue. He hasn't been his best, but he certainly hasn't been as bad as you'd like to think. He has a 3.98 ERA after 13 starts... let's see it after 29 or 30.

Yeah, you'd take Schilling. Great. The Red Sox will take both.

I don't know how Clemens got into the discussion because I don't ever remember bringing him up, or 1986 for that matter. Why don't Sox fans blame Pedro? :lol:

Whether it's 3 or 6, you can't take them away, they count. I never said Pedro wasn't good this year (point me where I said that) I said that he isn't the pitcher he used to be. I said it multiple times in the past few days and I'll say it yet again, he is one of the top 4 pitchers in the game, please tell me where that is dissing him?

Mo_04
06-12-04, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket


Whether it's 3 or 6, you can't take them away, they count. I never said Pedro wasn't good this year (point me where I said that) I said that he isn't the pitcher he used to be. I said it multiple times in the past few days and I'll say it yet again, he is one of the top 4 pitchers in the game, please tell me where that is dissing him?

You sure CAN take 3 starts away when evaluating a pitcher. Sure you can't take those starts away when evaluating what a pitcher has already done, but if you're trying to figure out what one might expect from him in future performances, you can take it away. There is certaintly much reason to believe that pedro is not the pitcher who toted a 4.40 e.r.a. with him to the mound in his last start. He apparently had some problem with his mechanics, that he says he's mostly fixed, except for his curveball which he says is "not quite where i want it just yet", or something to that effect. I'll put it this way for you. Here's an example. Ok...an absolutely absurd example that has zero chance of happening, but should illustrate my point:

Say pedro had that 4.40 e.r.a. because he decided he wanted to try and pitch lefthanded this season. After not finding the sucess he wanted with it, he decided to go back to pitching righthanded. Now would i expect him to continue being a 4.40 e.r.a. pitcher? NO. He would now be a different pitcher, a better pitcher.

Another reason you can take 3 starts away, is because even though it's 1/3rd of the season through, it is still a fairly small sample size that can be impacted heavily by a couple of bad starts. Here's an example.

Which pitcher would you rather have?
Pitcher A who has a 3 e.r.a. in 10 games, with his line consistently being 9 IP 3 ER.
Pitcher B who has a 3 e.r.a. in 10 games with his line consistently being 9 IP 2 ER except for one start where he gave up 10 runs in 9IP.

Those are the two reasons you can say that those starts don't really mean that much. One because he is likely no longer the same pitcher that had that 4.40 e.r.a., and two, because he has actually been pretty darn good in the majority of his starts, but has had his e.r.a. marred by a few very bad games. Thus he was really not as bad as his 4.40 e.r.a. suggested.

Wrigley
06-12-04, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Mo_04
Say pedro had that 4.40 e.r.a. because he decided he wanted to try and pitch lefthanded this season.

lol.. something about that just made me laugh for some reason. :D

YankeePride1967
06-13-04, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Mo_04


You sure CAN take 3 starts away when evaluating a pitcher. Sure you can't take those starts away when evaluating what a pitcher has already done, but if you're trying to figure out what one might expect from him in future performances, you can take it away. There is certaintly much reason to believe that pedro is not the pitcher who toted a 4.40 e.r.a. with him to the mound in his last start. He apparently had some problem with his mechanics, that he says he's mostly fixed, except for his curveball which he says is "not quite where i want it just yet", or something to that effect. I'll put it this way for you. Here's an example. Ok...an absolutely absurd example that has zero chance of happening, but should illustrate my point:

Say pedro had that 4.40 e.r.a. because he decided he wanted to try and pitch lefthanded this season. After not finding the sucess he wanted with it, he decided to go back to pitching righthanded. Now would i expect him to continue being a 4.40 e.r.a. pitcher? NO. He would now be a different pitcher, a better pitcher.

Another reason you can take 3 starts away, is because even though it's 1/3rd of the season through, it is still a fairly small sample size that can be impacted heavily by a couple of bad starts. Here's an example.

Which pitcher would you rather have?
Pitcher A who has a 3 e.r.a. in 10 games, with his line consistently being 9 IP 3 ER.
Pitcher B who has a 3 e.r.a. in 10 games with his line consistently being 9 IP 2 ER except for one start where he gave up 10 runs in 9IP.

Those are the two reasons you can say that those starts don't really mean that much. One because he is likely no longer the same pitcher that had that 4.40 e.r.a., and two, because he has actually been pretty darn good in the majority of his starts, but has had his e.r.a. marred by a few very bad games. Thus he was really not as bad as his 4.40 e.r.a. suggested.

Then take away his three best starts too. Can't have it both ways. Cripes, am I typing in Japanese or Korean here? I will say this for the 453,432 time and hope and pray it sinks in, I AM NOT KNOCKING PEDRO MARTINEZ, I am simply saying he's not the same pitcher as in 99-01 a nd there is no arguing that fact. I will also say again for at least three times in this one thread that Pedro is one of the TOP FOUR PITCHERS in baseball. I am only questioning his durability with plenty of proof to back that statement up.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-13-04, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket

I AM NOT KNOCKING PEDRO MARTINEZ, I am simply saying he's not the same pitcher as in 99-01 a nd there is no arguing that fact.

I feel like I've repeated myself several times as well. Noone is saying he's the same guy from 99-01. The argument is that hes the same guy from the 3 years since then. Not the most dominant pitcher ever, but the guy with slightly less dominant stuff who still manages to be at the top of the league in virtually all categories by year's end.

YankeePride1967
06-13-04, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by WakefieldsCrewSox


I feel like I've repeated myself several times as well. Noone is saying he's the same guy from 99-01. The argument is that hes the same guy from the 3 years since then. Not the most dominant pitcher ever, but the guy with slightly less dominant stuff who still manages to be at the top of the league in virtually all categories by year's end.

Well why do people keep arguing with me about it when I'm saying the same darn thing?!?!? Pedro from 02 to now is the same pitcher and nowhere did I even hint otherwise. I think people seem to be way overlysensitive and if you say anything less than Pedro is God it's blasphemy.

WakefieldsCrewSox
06-13-04, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket


Well why do people keep arguing with me about it when I'm saying the same darn thing?!?!? Pedro from 02 to now is the same pitcher and nowhere did I even hint otherwise. I think people seem to be way overlysensitive and if you say anything less than Pedro is God it's blasphemy.

Rocket- from reading your last comment, I was under the impression that you thought someone WAS trying to say that he was the same guy from 99-01 in argument, which i didnt pick up on. Just miscommunication, I think everyone is on the same page now, no biggie.

Mo_04
06-13-04, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by GoRocket


Then take away his three best starts too. Can't have it both ways. Cripes, am I typing in Japanese or Korean here? I will say this for the 453,432 time and hope and pray it sinks in, I AM NOT KNOCKING PEDRO MARTINEZ, I am simply saying he's not the same pitcher as in 99-01 a nd there is no arguing that fact. I will also say again for at least three times in this one thread that Pedro is one of the TOP FOUR PITCHERS in baseball. I am only questioning his durability with plenty of proof to back that statement up.

I still don't know who said that pedro is the same pitcher as he was from 99-01. I don't know where you're getting that from.

And if you take pedro's 3 best, and 3 worst starts away, his e.r.a. is probably in the mid to low 2's. You certaintly CAN take away starts when evaluating a player. I gave the 2 reasons you can mess around with the stats. 1, because he is no longer the same pitcher that had a 4.40 e.r.a.. 2 because a couple of bad starts this early into the season, can really mess up your e.r.a.. The majority of pedro's starts have been very good. Now when it comes down to voting on the CY winner come years end, and pedro improves himself a lot, that bad start IS going to and SHOULD hurt him. But if you want to evaluate what kind of pitcher pedro is going to be from now till the end of the season, you can throw away a couple of bad starts in this situation.

Pedro doesn't have to worry about the CY voting anyway. He either has to totally crush the league in every category, or they give it to someone else. He'll probably get robbed for a 3rd straight year.

YankeePride1967
06-13-04, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Mo_04


I still don't know who said that pedro is the same pitcher as he was from 99-01. I don't know where you're getting that from.

And if you take pedro's 3 best, and 3 worst starts away, his e.r.a. is probably in the mid to low 2's. You certaintly CAN take away starts when evaluating a player. I gave the 2 reasons you can mess around with the stats. 1, because he is no longer the same pitcher that had a 4.40 e.r.a.. 2 because a couple of bad starts this early into the season, can really mess up your e.r.a.. The majority of pedro's starts have been very good. Now when it comes down to voting on the CY winner come years end, and pedro improves himself a lot, that bad start IS going to and SHOULD hurt him. But if you want to evaluate what kind of pitcher pedro is going to be from now till the end of the season, you can throw away a couple of bad starts in this situation.

Pedro doesn't have to worry about the CY voting anyway. He either has to totally crush the league in every category, or they give it to someone else. He'll probably get robbed for a 3rd straight year.

And I have said nothing to the contrary. The only question I have with him is his durability. In the post season can he pitch every fourth day with high pitch counts and high stress games, his 2003 playoff results certainly make that a valid concern.