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pacewon
03-23-04, 01:57 PM
http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20040323_23sox.84813.html

He was very hitable in game 3 last year when he couldn't top 90 mph for the first 4 innings.

bakntime
03-23-04, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by pacewon
http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20040323_23sox.84813.html


Like I'm going through THAT registration process... I've never understood why some websites need my name, phone number, home address, etc, etc, etc, just so I can read an article.

pacewon
03-23-04, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by bakntime


Like I'm going through THAT registration process... I've never understood why some websites need my name, phone number, home address, etc, etc, etc, just so I can read an article.

You don't need to put your phone #. The registration takes about 1 minute, much like all other registration processes

RedGlare
03-23-04, 03:13 PM
but you do need almost EVERYthing else

Please fill in first name

Please fill in last name

Please fill in ZIP code

Please select one or more hobbies from the list

please answer the first media question

please answer the second media question

Address1 is required

City is required
uh

but good article... I wonder what they think when they see gs@yankees.com had signed up

RedGlare
03-23-04, 03:19 PM
a snip

Some concern about Martinez exists within the organization. Martinez has been pain-free all spring, but some in management are asking why Martinez has yet to top 90 mph on radar guns in three Grapefruit League outings. There's also some fear that his lower arm angle, which his close friend, David Segui of the Baltimore Orioles, pointed out to him after an at-bat 10 days ago, is indicative of some soreness in the shoulder.
:wow: It has been over a month for pitchers and catchers. You'd think Pedro would be warm enough to throw a hard fastball once or twice in every game.

Bub
03-23-04, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by bakntime


Like I'm going through THAT registration process... I've never understood why some websites need my name, phone number, home address, etc, etc, etc, just so I can read an article. What's really annoying is that a lot require a password, and there are different password rules so you can't use the same password everywhere. Then you visit the site 2 months later and they ask you for your password....like you can remember every one of them, or you've taken the time to write them down somewhere. :rolleyes:

Bluesexy's daddy
03-23-04, 03:24 PM
Interesting article. At first I was thinking "So what? Every GM is worried about every pitcher on their roster every day of every year". The velocity and arm angle are a bit strange. I wonder if his shoulder is hurting. I honestly wonder why any MLB pitcher would NOT be hurting but that's another story.

This seems to present Schlepstein and Lucky Lucchino with a bit of a nightmare. Let him walk and win big some place else vs. pay him big bucks to find out that he is shot. It's a risk they will have to decide on one way or the other. This is the typical pitching dilema that could cause a GM a stroke.

How does Lowe make the "Fab Four"? I understand the other three but I don't think it would impact the Sox much if Lowe left.

Am I being too anti-Mahtinez when I find his "It doesn't matter" quote annoying? I mean JESUS, the Sox fans have treated him like royalty and the club has paid him a fortune. How about a slight bit of optimism for your fans Pedro? Maybe the quote was taken out of context and maybe he was just saying that he is not letting contract matters bug him but if he was actualy saying that he doesn't care if he stays with the Sox or not that would be a bit annoying.

Bluesexy's daddy
03-23-04, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Bub
What's really annoying is that a lot require a password, and there are different password rules so you can't use the same password everywhere. Then you visit the site 2 months later and they ask you for your password....like you can remember every one of them, or you've taken the time to write them down somewhere. :rolleyes:

For insignificant stuff like this I always use a profanity for a password. It's easier for me to remember. I'm not too worried that someone will sneak into my "Projo" account and cause havoc in my life. I don't mind them asking for my address,DOB, phone number or financial status. I always select the lowest financial status offered (don't bother trying to sell me anything). I can always think of lots of charming addresses that are similar to my password. For phone number I use the switchboard number for the state Pen. I'm sure they can't do much harm with the info I provide them. Telemarketers probably get bored with their work and my file should provide them with a laugh.

OilCan
03-23-04, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Bluesexy's daddy
Am I being too anti-Mahtinez when I find his "It doesn't matter" quote annoying? I mean JESUS, the Sox fans have treated him like royalty and the club has paid him a fortune. How about a slight bit of optimism for your fans Pedro? Maybe the quote was taken out of context and maybe he was just saying that he is not letting contract matters bug him but if he was actualy saying that he doesn't care if he stays with the Sox or not that would be a bit annoying.

I don't know. I would have liked to seen how the question that he responded to was worded.

FWIW, this spring Pedro has consistently stated that his contract situation wouldn't effect his performance, that he wasn't worried about it, that he would like to stay in Boston, etc. so I'm assuming the "It doesn't matter" refers to whether his contract status has an effect on his pitching.

JeffWeaverFan
03-23-04, 03:46 PM
Well, I didn't register, but from reading that part of the article I would be concerned if I were a red sox fan... But thankfully, I am a Yankee fan:)

Bozidar
03-23-04, 03:54 PM
ah Damnit!

NDBoston
03-23-04, 03:55 PM
FYI and OT

Derek Lowe looks 100% different this spring. He just finished 6 innings today with 0 ER and 3 hits. 1.3 ERA for the Spring compared to over 5 last year.

Having him in a contract year could be a positive by the looks of things. .

WiffleWOOD
03-23-04, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston
FYI and OT

Derek Lowe looks 100% different this spring. He just finished 6 innings today with 0 ER and 3 hits. 1.3 ERA for the Spring compared to over 5 last year.

Having him in a contract year could be a positive by the looks of things. .

that is certainly impressive, but it was against the Devil Rays, in ST. we'll have this conversation once real baseball starts.

nyyfanatic85
03-23-04, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston
FYI and OT

Derek Lowe looks 100% different this spring. He just finished 6 innings today with 0 ER and 3 hits. 1.3 ERA for the Spring compared to over 5 last year.

Having him in a contract year could be a positive by the looks of things. .

I expect to see the Lowe of a couple years ago this year.

NDBoston
03-23-04, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by WiffleWOOD


that is certainly impressive, but it was against the Devil Rays, in ST. we'll have this conversation once real baseball starts.

I was comparing it to last year where he got hammered around in ST.
He also looked good against the Blue Jays and the Twins.

Time will tell.

Doc's Private Stash
03-23-04, 04:39 PM
If you've paid attention to Pedro's ST performances over the duration of his career, and really his approach in general, you shouldn't really be worried about his "lack" of velocity so far. He's always been one to take it easy in the spring, and he usually seems to spend considerably less time preparing himself in game situations than most pitchers, both in terms of length of starts and repitoire on display. He's basically the anti-Schilling in this regard. If the regular season kicks in and Petey's topping out at 87 and logging a 2+ WHIP or something over his first few starts, then I'd be worried. Until the season starts though, it's usually a pretty pointless excercise to try and rate Pedro's performances.

pacewon
03-23-04, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Doc's Private Stash
Until the season starts though, it's usually a pretty pointless excercise to try and rate Pedro's performances.

The major difference this year being that he is trying to get an extension signed, and one would think that impressing the Red Sox would be the way to do so, but his velocity is way down.

Doc's Private Stash
03-23-04, 04:44 PM
D-Lowe has looked tough so far this spring, which is good news for Sox fans. I think the Cancer scare and surgery, which he now admits had a pretty substantial impact on his ability to prepare for the season properly, indeed played a bigger role in his early season struggles of last year than anyone really thought at the time. Take a full, healthy ST, an infield defense - Todd Walker and + Pokey Reese, and the hopes of cashing in as a Boras FA signing, and it looks like Lowe could be ready to tear it up again. And if he comes back to 2002 form, the Red Sox will not be enduring too many losing streaks this season.

cubswin
03-23-04, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


The major difference this year being that he is trying to get an extension signed, and one would think that impressing the Red Sox would be the way to do so, but his velocity is way down.


I have a feeling that Pedro doesn't need to prove anything to them. We'll see in a week or so.

ACPS
03-23-04, 04:54 PM
I give Lowe about a net plus of four or five wins with the acquisition of Reese (while on the topic of flyball/groundball pitchers, does anyone know how the interim Sox OF defense stacks up against the D-Backs from last season?)

About Pedro, it's still ST. But it's not encouraging.

Bosox Guy in Chitown
03-23-04, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


The major difference this year being that he is trying to get an extension signed, and one would think that impressing the Red Sox would be the way to do so, but his velocity is way down.

Yankee fans don't seem worried that Brown is "saving his arm" by reducing his velocity this spring. Let's see what happens come opening day.

pacewon
03-23-04, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Bosox Guy in Chitown


Yankee fans don't seem worried that Brown is "saving his arm" by reducing his velocity this spring. Let's see what happens come opening day.

I'm not as familiar with Brown... But I know Pedro needs his velocity to be effective. When he couldn't top 90 in game 3 the Yankees were knocking his breaking balls all over the place.

And Brown isn't trying to impress anybody for a contract.

RedGlare
03-23-04, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Doc's Private Stash
Until the season starts though, it's usually a pretty pointless excercise to try and rate Pedro's performances. Although it is ok to guess about Lowe

cubswin
03-23-04, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


I'm not as familiar with Brown... But I know Pedro needs his velocity to be effective. When he couldn't top 90 in game 3 the Yankees were knocking his breaking balls all over the place.

And Brown isn't trying to impress anybody for a contract.


All due respect, Pacewon, that actually isn't true. First, re. game 3 v. Yanks, he simply wasn't mixing pitches. After he started mixing in fastballs again -- fastballs that were not particularly fast -- the Yankees didn't touch him. All season, Pedro tended to throw his fastball 91-92 -- nothing special -- yet he still had an amazing year. Obviously, if he has no fastball whatsoever he may be in trouble, but as long as he's high 80s / low 90s, he's proven that he can pitch as well as virtually anybody out there today.

RedGlare
03-23-04, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
but as long as he's high 80s / low 90s, he's proven that he can pitch as well as virtually anybody out there today. Well then the article is wrong and the sox should have no fear in locking him up

cubswin
03-23-04, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by RedGlare
Well then the article is wrong and the sox should have no fear in locking him up


couldn't read the article. but I'm basing my claim on last year's performance results. that doesn't necessarily apply to his LT health, if that's what the article was discussing.

NelsonMuntz
03-23-04, 07:34 PM
There's also some fear that his lower arm angle, which his close friend, David Segui of the Baltimore Orioles, pointed out to him after an at-bat 10 days ago, is indicative of some soreness in the shoulder.
If I were a Sox fan, I would be much more worried about his arm angle than his velocity. Pedro is much less effective when he drops down.

pacewon
03-23-04, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
All due respect, Pacewon, that actually isn't true. First, re. game 3 v. Yanks, he simply wasn't mixing pitches. After he started mixing in fastballs again -- fastballs that were not particularly fast -- the Yankees didn't touch him. All season, Pedro tended to throw his fastball 91-92 -- nothing special -- yet he still had an amazing year. Obviously, if he has no fastball whatsoever he may be in trouble, but as long as he's high 80s / low 90s, he's proven that he can pitch as well as virtually anybody out there today.

I have the game on my computer and that's not what happened... He had no velocity on the fastball to begin the game and kept going to the breaking ball. The Yankees were hitting it all over the place. His velocity picked up after the confrontation on the field and after he hit Garcia he retired every batter he faced the rest of the game with the fastball hitting the 95-96 mph range.

Gringaloca
03-23-04, 10:22 PM
Not for nothing...but if you really want to see what Pedro has..against the Yankees this year...

Watch the game tomorrow night...on YES or on mlb.com Video. Yes..he's scheduled to start for Boston, but as we all know "it's only ST"..;)

SINCE77 2
03-23-04, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Gringaloca
Not for nothing...but if you really want to see what Pedro has..against the Yankees this year...

Watch the game tomorrow night...on YES or on mlb.com Video. Yes..he's scheduled to start for Boston, but as we all know "it's only ST"..;)


Wakefield is going for the Sox. Osborne for the Yankees.

Gringaloca
03-23-04, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2



Wakefield is going for the Sox. Osborne for the Yankees.

I heard earlier tonight that it was Pedro:confused:
In any case..I'll be watching ....:)

cubswin
03-23-04, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by pacewon


I have the game on my computer and that's not what happened... He had no velocity on the fastball to begin the game and kept going to the breaking ball. The Yankees were hitting it all over the place. His velocity picked up after the confrontation on the field and after he hit Garcia he retired every batter he faced the rest of the game with the fastball hitting the 95-96 mph range.


I stand corrected re the speed on his fastball after the Garcia incident -- I don't recall Pedro hitting mid-90s. But you've confirmed the first part -- it wasn't that he was throwing 91mph and getting hit b/c he couldn't throw 95 -- he simply wasn't throwing the fastball.

Again, my main point is that as long as he's 90+, he's going to be a great pitcher, based on the last couple years. He doesn't need the 95-96mph fastball that he once had (and apparently had for a few innings in game 3).

RedGlare
03-23-04, 11:28 PM
When I rewatched game 7 he threw a 94 mph moving strike on the inside of the plate to posada in the 8th. I was shocked because I though... geez how do you take Pedro out when he is thrown like that.

JeffWeaverFan
03-23-04, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Gringaloca
Not for nothing...but if you really want to see what Pedro has..against the Yankees this year...

Watch the game tomorrow night...on YES or on mlb.com Video. Yes..he's scheduled to start for Boston, but as we all know "it's only ST"..;)
Does mlb.com video cost money or is it free?

nyyfanatic85
03-23-04, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by JeffWeaverFan

Does mlb.com video cost money or is it free?

No such thing as a free lunch.:( Unfortunately it's not.

cubswin
03-24-04, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by RedGlare
When I rewatched game 7 he threw a 94 mph moving strike on the inside of the plate to posada in the 8th. I was shocked because I though... geez how do you take Pedro out when he is thrown like that.


I think he had 2-strike counts on several betters that inning. I'd love to see it again. While Pedro was clearly tiring, I still have no problem w/Little's decision. I'd bet he gets out of that 5 times out of 6 (not that that matters now, of course...)

nyyfanatic85
03-24-04, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by cubswin



I think he had 2-strike counts on several betters that inning. I'd love to see it again. While Pedro was clearly tiring, I still have no problem w/Little's decision. I'd bet he gets out of that 5 times out of 6 (not that that matters now, of course...)

Exactly. I was still happy when they took Pedro out for some reason. I don't care if we've scored 10 runs off him, I still would rather face Mike Timlin than Pedro.

RedGlare
03-24-04, 12:28 AM
agreed... how do you tell the best pitcher in baseball to give it up even though he is getting ahead of everyone?

pacewon
03-24-04, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
I think he had 2-strike counts on several betters that inning.

Indeed... He had 2 strikes on all 4 batters that got consecutive hits off him: Jeter down 0-2, Bernie down 1-2, Matsui down 0-2, and Posada down 2-2.

flutie22
03-24-04, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by nyyfanatic85


Exactly. I was still happy when they took Pedro out for some reason. I don't care if we've scored 10 runs off him, I still would rather face Mike Timlin than Pedro.
Grady was saving Timlin for game 8.

NDBoston
03-24-04, 07:40 AM
The Sox aren't that worried it seems

After face-to-face negotiations with the Red Sox last night, Pedro Martinez left ``happy'' and the Red Sox said they had enjoyed a ``positive'' discussion, a pair of subtle signs of hope that the sides can find common ground on a contract extension.

At the City of Palms Park offices of the Red Sox, Martinez was an active participant in talks with principal owner John Henry, president and CEO Larry Lucchino and general manager Theo Epstein. Martinez' agent, Fernando Cuza, was also present in a two-hour meeting that kicked off contract talks in what has to be described as a step forward rather than a step back.


http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=647

RedGlare
03-24-04, 07:49 AM
did they consult Affleck?

Pomp
03-24-04, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston
Martinez' agent, Fernando Cuza, was also present in a two-hour meeting that kicked off contract talks in what has to be described as a step forward rather than a step back.


http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=647

Mariano and Pedro have the same agent, interesting.

NDBoston
03-24-04, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by RedGlare
did they consult Affleck?

Do the Yankees consult Spike Lee or Billy Crystal? If I was Cashman, I would be calling Nicole Kidman though.

:lol:

RedGlare
03-24-04, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston
Do the Yankees consult Spike Lee or Billy Crystal?
Yes ;)




Just as it seems that Mr Hicks consults George Bush :lol:

elston32
03-24-04, 10:10 AM
What players on their team doesn't the Red Sox management, not to mentions their fans, "worry" about?????

They "worry" about everyone--- see SoSH!!!!

NDBoston
03-24-04, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by elston32
What players on their team doesn't the Red Sox management, not to mentions their fans, "worry" about?????

They "worry" about everyone--- see SoSH!!!!

How is that different than any other team? These players are the biggest assets for the Owners. They should be worrying when you spend 700 million for a team.

I'm not sure where you're going on the SoSH comment. Theo answers questions once a year and JWH posted about the Jimmy Fund fundraiser and thanked SoSH on helping with the Schilling signing. He posts very infrequently if at all now.

Bluesexy's daddy
03-24-04, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by NDBoston


How is that different than any other team? These players are the biggest assets for the Owners. They should be worrying when you spend 700 million for a team.



Any GM that does not worry about EVERY pitcher EVERY day should be checked for substance abuse and or have an EEG performed.

Sox fans DO worry more than most fans. So do YANKEES fans. I think most Dodger fans barely notice. If there were any Expos fans I wonder to what degree they would worry.

junkman73
03-24-04, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
I have a feeling that Pedro doesn't need to prove anything to them. We'll see in a week or so.

Based on that he should have gotten his extension already, no???

cubswin
03-24-04, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by junkman73


Based on that he should have gotten his extension already, no???


No - still need to agree on things like $ and duration.

Nettles dfw
03-24-04, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by pacewon Indeed... He had 2 strikes on all 4 batters that got consecutive hits off him: Jeter down 0-2, Bernie down 1-2, Matsui down 0-2, and Posada down 2-2. To my eye he made nasty pitches to get to the two strike counts (with the possible exception of a Bernie foul ball). I especially remember tough inside pitches to Matsui.

The hits (again to my untrained eye) came off much less nasty stuff.

Nettles dfw
03-24-04, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Doc's Private Stash
If you've paid attention to Pedro's ST performances over the duration of his career, and really his approach in general, you shouldn't really be worried about his "lack" of velocity so far. He's always been one to take it easy in the spring, and he usually seems to spend considerably less time preparing himself in game situations than most pitchers, both in terms of length of starts and repitoire on display. He's basically the anti-Schilling in this regard. If the regular season kicks in and Petey's topping out at 87 and logging a 2+ WHIP or something over his first few starts, then I'd be worried. Until the season starts though, it's usually a pretty pointless excercise to try and rate Pedro's performances. This would be my gereral impression also, although I will admit to not being an expert on Pedro's ST performances.
IMHO, if anything, the contract year will push him to take it easy in ST, making sure not to get hurt. I can't see him extending himself in ST to improve his position to negotiate an extension. I also wouldn't be surprised by a few mediocre opening starts (by his standards) followed by a hot streak.

Espinosa's Glasses
03-25-04, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by NDBoston

If I was Cashman, I would be calling Nicole Kidman though.

:lol:

I was pissed when I saw her at that game ... I said to myself... daughter of a bitch you are in my seat

CTSoxFan
03-25-04, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Doc's Private Stash
If you've paid attention to Pedro's ST performances over the duration of his career, and really his approach in general, you shouldn't really be worried about his "lack" of velocity so far. He's always been one to take it easy in the spring, and he usually seems to spend considerably less time preparing himself in game situations than most pitchers, both in terms of length of starts and repitoire on display. He's basically the anti-Schilling in this regard. If the regular season kicks in and Petey's topping out at 87 and logging a 2+ WHIP or something over his first few starts, then I'd be worried. Until the season starts though, it's usually a pretty pointless excercise to try and rate Pedro's performances.

He also tends to get hammered pretty hard in an early regular-season start, most years. (In 2003, it was his second start of the season, when the Orioles slapped him around for ten earned runs in 4 1/3 innings.) This is followed by hand-wringing and gasping, primarily on the part of Boston's dubious press corps; they take their cheap shots against Petey, questioning everything from his offseason workout ethic to his stamina. Several months later, when he's in the top three in Cy Young voting the way he usually is, such performances are forgotten.

YankeeFan1
03-25-04, 08:51 AM
According to this article from the Boston Herald, negotiations with the Red Sox potential free agents aren't quite getting off the ground:

All talk, no action: Sox drag feet on negotiations
By Tony Massarotti/ Baseball
Thursday, March 25, 2004
http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=652

ny
03-25-04, 12:01 PM
The Red Sox picked up the pace in negotiations with Pedro Martinez this week. But four scouts who have watched Martinez pitch this spring say they'd be hesitant to commit mega-dollars to a guy who hasn't made it past 90 mph on the gun all spring.


"I'd worry a little bit about Pedro if I were them," said one scout. "He's really dropped down with his arm slot, and it really makes you wonder about him. He's throwing 86-88, and he tops out at 90. They're going to have to baby him. He's not a horse anymore, not like the other guy (Curt Schilling)."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2004/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1767400

aeromac76
03-25-04, 03:53 PM
Pedro is fragile but is one competitive SOB.
I know the Yankees routinesly come out ahead of him but I still don't look forward to facing him by any means..

Bottom line is this, I will believe Pedro needs to be worried about when he gets racked when the games count.
Clemens used to get racked all the time in spring, he was tinkering or working on something and we'd all get worried, and then the bell would ring and the 96 MPH heater and splitter would be back and all was well with the world again.

It would not shock me if Pedro rifles in a 97 MPH heater on opening day, first pitch. Whenever someone doubts him, he usually gears it up.

If he gets racked when the ring thebell next week, then I'd get worried, but if he feels good, then no reason to worry about it until he knows he needs to win and cannot do so...

ring403
03-26-04, 11:24 PM
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/03/26/ace_cool_with_the_heater/

FORT MYERS, Fla. -
Where'd the cheese go?
It's the question asked whenever Pedro Martinez pitches this spring. He hasn't been his usual dazzling self. His contract is up at the end of the season and there are talks of an extension. Or a move to the hated Yankees. The wildly talented, ever-fragile Pedro was at the epicenter of the seismic event that ended the biblical season of 2003 and this spring every pitch he makes is monitored.

conehead1222
03-26-04, 11:45 PM
It's funny how Pedro is ever fragile. Every year he goes down with an injury of some sort, comes back, kicks butt, and is Cy Young material every year. When he doesn't go on the DL, he's a lock for Cy Young. When he does, he's still top three... yet still fragile. I think he's a lot more than a power pitcher. He's smart. He's not unlike David Cone in his early years. Cone had this RIDICULOUS fastball, would throw 160 pitchers per game, and just eat up opponents. Than he had his aneurysm, and he had to stop throwing gas. However, that wasn't the end of his career. He knew how to mix it up, how to invent pitches. I think Pedro is using a lower arm angle to just test out comfort levels. He doesn't need to throw mid 90s to win. Hell, Maddux and Glavine never did, and they're close to 300. I think Pedro will be fine... maybe not AS dominant, but he'll still remain one of the elite pitchers for years to come. If not, than he'll go into the HoF anyway, since his numbers are similar to Sandy Koufax.

As a Yankee fan, I hope this means they'll pound his brains in... but in all likelihood, I still think it'll be incredibly close games, and he'll always give us fits... as a true rival should.

OilCan
03-27-04, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by ring403
http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2004/03/26/ace_cool_with_the_heater/

FORT MYERS, Fla. -
Where'd the cheese go?
It's the question asked whenever Pedro Martinez pitches this spring. He hasn't been his usual dazzling self. His contract is up at the end of the season and there are talks of an extension. Or a move to the hated Yankees. The wildly talented, ever-fragile Pedro was at the epicenter of the seismic event that ended the biblical season of 2003 and this spring every pitch he makes is monitored.

Heh, I don't even have to click on the link to know who wrote that. :)

cubswin
03-27-04, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by OilCan


Heh, I don't even have to click on the link to know who wrote that. :)


although it was surprisingly benign, for him

OilCan
03-27-04, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by cubswin



although it was surprisingly benign, for him

True.

He didn't even call Pedro the "Dominican Diva". Maybe he's mellowing. Although his "Bitter Times Ahead" column from the other day was standard CHB dreck.

I really used to like him about 10 years ago, and I still read all his columns, but he mails it in so much it drives me nuts. He's gotten very lazy about his fact checking as well.

Although the best baseball columnist the Globe ever had was Gammons in the 70's. His Sunday "Baseball Notes" column used to be two full pages, sometimes.

cubswin
03-27-04, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by OilCan


True.

He didn't even call Pedro the "Dominican Diva". Maybe he's mellowing. Although his "Bitter Times Ahead" column from the other day was standard CHB dreck.

I really used to like him about 10 years ago, and I still read all his columns, but he mails it in so much it drives me nuts. He's gotten very lazy about his fact checking as well.

Although the best baseball columnist the Globe ever had was Gammons in the 70's. His Sunday "Baseball Notes" column used to be two full pages, sometimes.


I loved gammons when I was a kid -- all the trade rumors, etc. were fantastic -- I used to make my dad pick it up every week, even though he hated the paper. they had some good writers: gammons, ryan, 1 or 2 more guys who went to SI, Shaughnessy when he actually tried, etc.

OilCan
03-27-04, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by cubswin



I loved gammons when I was a kid -- all the trade rumors, etc. were fantastic -- I used to make my dad pick it up every week, even though he hated the paper. they had some good writers: gammons, ryan, 1 or 2 more guys who went to SI, Shaughnessy when he actually tried, etc.

Yep, Leigh Montville was one of the guys who went to SI. He was very good as well. Ryan's still good, although he mostly does basketball, and tends to say dumb stuff on TV. Will McDonough, of course, was outstanding.

stevethesoxfan
03-27-04, 01:08 PM
While we're on the subject of Boston figures who may have lost their fastball, the writer for the Globe that has fallen off the worst is Shaughnessy. He was an interesting read about ten years ago. Then he got his head inflated with his "Curse" crap, started thinking he was a radio and TV star, and his writing went way downhill. That is the opinion of most people up here in Sox country now.

He often criticizes Martinez and other ballplayers, but at least when most of those players' skills drop off, it is because of age or injuries. In Shaughnessy's case, his skills have left him because he doesn't give a damn about his craft anymore. He's gotten lazy and goes for the cheap Jerry Springer-type shock garbage now. To usae an analogy, if the Globe were a baseball team, the smart move would be to cut him or drop him down to AA ball.

Keep pushing your "Curse" agenda, Shaughnessy...it may make you a few bucks but you continue to lose the respect of Globe readers more and more every day...

justin32099
03-27-04, 02:21 PM
I'm not as familiar with Brown... But I know Pedro needs his velocity to be effective. When he couldn't top 90 in game 3 the Yankees were knocking his breaking balls all over the place.

And Brown isn't trying to impress anybody for a contract.

Pedro does not need his velocity to be effective--he hasn't pitched above 90 the last two years. With a 2.26 and 2.22 ERA, I think he's been fine with that.

And Pedro has pitched great for Boston for six years now--there is no way he needs to impress anyone against minor leaguers in spring training for a contract. He has said he really doesn't care about an extension right now--it doesn't need to be a distraction.

He has said he wants to finish his career with Boston many times, I believe a contract will get done, either before or after the season.

cubswin
03-27-04, 04:46 PM
Pedro's fastball apparently reached 93 in his game Thursday.

bakntime
03-27-04, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
Pedro's fastball apparently reached 93 in his game Thursday.

Ok, but what did it actually reach? :lol:

sorry. :D

junkman73
03-27-04, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by justin32099
Pedro does not need his velocity to be effective--he hasn't pitched above 90 the last two years.

Pedro hasn't pitched above 90 in the past 2 years??? The rest of us must be watching a different Pedro Martina than you are. He's very reliant on his hard stuff, and when he goes deep into games with it, it usually takes him a couple of games to rebound.

For the most part, he did not show the world anything special in the 2003 playoffs. The Sox were 1-3 in his starts and probably would have been eliminated if Oakland had a couple of small things go their way. I think for the entire season the Sox were 1-5 vs the Yanks in his starts.

Maybe Sox management wants to see if he's healthy for an entire season and capable of beating the better teams in the AL.

cubswin
03-27-04, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by junkman73


Pedro hasn't pitched above 90 in the past 2 years??? The rest of us must be watching a different Pedro Martina than you are. He's very reliant on his hard stuff, and when he goes deep into games with it, it usually takes him a couple of games to rebound.

For the most part, he did not show the world anything special in the 2003 playoffs. The Sox were 1-3 in his starts and probably would have been eliminated if Oakland had a couple of small things go their way. I think for the entire season the Sox were 1-5 vs the Yanks in his starts.

Maybe Sox management wants to see if he's healthy for an entire season and capable of beating the better teams in the AL.


That other post was an exaggeration, I think -- low 90s, not 90, would be accurate. However, to say he is very reliant on his hard stuff also is misleading. If by hard stuff you mean 91-93, perhaps he is reliant on it, but we really don't know. He handled a dropoff in his usual velocity from mid to high 90s down to low 90s w/o much difficulty.

Re. Sox mgmt taking a "wait-and-see" approach, IMO that would be pretty stupid, as he had another fantastic year last year, and this isn't they type of pitcher you take a chance of losing.

YankeePride1967
03-27-04, 09:02 PM
Let me see Pedro get knocked around in some games that count, then I might worry about him. I don't care about ST.

junkman73
03-28-04, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
Re. Sox mgmt taking a "wait-and-see" approach, IMO that would be pretty stupid, as he had another fantastic year last year, and this isn't they type of pitcher you take a chance of losing.

Knowing how much weight the Sox put into stats and guys like Bill James, I think they're going to be cautious about giving big money to a guy who really didn't deliver when facing the AL's best. The Sox didn't even fare all that well in his starts last year...at one point I think they were 10-10 in the games he started. Not that he's not capable of putting up great numbers, but they have to come against teams other than Tampa Bay and Detroit.

cubswin
03-28-04, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by junkman73


Knowing how much weight the Sox put into stats and guys like Bill James, I think they're going to be cautious about giving big money to a guy who really didn't deliver when facing the AL's best. The Sox didn't even fare all that well in his starts last year...at one point I think they were 10-10 in the games he started. Not that he's not capable of putting up great numbers, but they have to come against teams other than Tampa Bay and Detroit.



Agreed they'll be cautious, as any team should be with any pitcher, but not the rest. You can keep saying it, but repeatedly claiming he couldn't handle the AL's best doesn't make it so. Record against Yankees, Jays, Twins, ChiSox, Oak and Sea: 5-3; ERA <3. (For sake of comparison, let's take the guy who I assume to be the Yanks' ace and, in many ways, most comparable to Pedro -- Kevin Brown. Versus Atl, Fla, Chi, Hou, SF, AZ: 4-5, ERA > 3.50...)

(Oh, and btw, while Pedro dominated the Rays, his one start against the Tigers wasn't stellar, and it did nothing to help his #s.)

junkman73
03-28-04, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by cubswin
Record against Yankees, Jays, Twins, ChiSox, Oak and Sea: 5-3; ERA <3.

But how did the Sox fare when Pedro got a ND??? And Kevin Brown had the NLs most lethargic offense behind him...Pedro had the ALs best.

cubswin
03-28-04, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by junkman73


But how did the Sox fare when Pedro got a ND??? And Kevin Brown had the NLs most lethargic offense behind him...Pedro had the ALs best.


I think they were about 500 in his no decisions -- but that's not all that relevant, IMO. If he pitches well but the AL's best offense is asleep behind him, there's not a lot more he can do. And if you substitute a worse pitcher for him in those games, bottom line is that the team loses more w/o him, all else equal. As for the argument I expect to hear next, that Pedro pitches 5 innings per game, he goes 6+, as do most pitchers these days. (Bigger issue is # of starts, which gets back to the main ?, which is, as always, health, not ability.)

Re. Brown, not tryin to pick on him, but having a bad offense behind him didn't cause his era to be over 3.5 against "good" teams. My only point in bringing him into this is to demonstrate that it's not unthinkable for any pitcher, including an "ace," th fare worse against better teams than against worse teams -- in fact, it's common sense.