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View Full Version : Best Pitching Staffs in Baseball



Bosox Guy in Chitown
03-06-04, 10:29 AM
Interesting read.... have to say I like it, but I am biased.

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2200802

cubswin
03-06-04, 12:03 PM
I thought it was a bit weak, personally. Why does he pick the Sox over Yanks? Not much rigor/analysis there.

miko
03-06-04, 12:09 PM
Sports Illustrated ran a half decent article about the best starting rotations in baseball but they looked at it from the Cubs perspective when they signed Maddux.

SuperMario66
03-06-04, 12:51 PM
There was so much movement this offseason that I think everybody needs to sit back and watch for a few months. I think we might all be surprised how everything plays out.

junkman73
03-06-04, 01:27 PM
I don't think the Yanks have the best rotation, but I certainly wouldn't say the Sox is the best either....When was the last time Pedro put up 200IP??? 2000??? Derek Lowe was terrible on the road last year and his ERA was nothing to write home about. Will Curt Schilling be as dominant in a park that flyballs become doubles?? Wakefield, albeit you cannot argue that he had an outstanding post-season in 2003, is someone who can go from hot to cold very quickly. And BH Kim?? A guy who was supposedly "injured" for the ALCS last year is now ready to perform in baseball's harshest media market???

There's no reason that if Brown can stay healthy, the Yanks rotation is just as strong. Both staffs have question marks, but I wouldn't even rate Boston's 5 better than the Cubbies'....maybe even the Astros' for that matter.

'04 TheSchillingEra
03-06-04, 04:28 PM
Yes last time he had 200 inning was 2000 BUT...he was 0.9 inning off in 2002 and last year he had 186.2 . Derek lowe was bad in away games but had good home games...He won bc of the run support. second highest in the AL last year with 6.5 RPG. I personally hate BK KIm...And the harshest media market is not Boston its NYC idiot.

Best rotations are

1) Cubs
2) sox
3) Astros
4) Yankees
5) Oakland

NJOBP36
03-06-04, 11:50 PM
Pedro was the second best pitcher last year when you account for missed time.

ruthianblast
03-07-04, 12:08 AM
i have to agree that even without maddux i'd probably say the cubs have the best rotation, with maddux it might not even be close, he's no longer dominant, but he can still pitch a good game. Wood and Prior are imo the two best young pitchers in the game (yes even better than any 2/3 of oakland's big three). Zambrano is a year older, and the over work that is mentioned shouldn't hurt either prior of zambrano because of their nearly flawless mechanics. I heard one scout ( i won't mention his name, as he wasn't in the cubs org. but another teams) last year talking about how prior could go the distance every game solely on mechanics alone. Pedro is still imo opinion the best pitcher, excepting how prior pitches this year, but i like wood over schill (younger, in NL, wind blows in off the lake a lot), and imo maddux is the best no. 3 in the mlb. zambrano and clement are 2 more guys who could easily pick up 12-17 wins with ok run support. I won't discount the red sox, who i will count as the 2nd best but i believe they are either right above by a smidgen, or tied with the Yanks, and the stros are 4th. Another thing that i take into account is the change of pace between starts, the sox have 2 bonafide fireballers with excellent control then a control and a knuckler, followed by kim. The cubbies have four fireballers who can locate within a mm of a spot and they are all young. There may be a couple of suprises in a few rotations around the league, oakland may move into the 2-4 spot, and the angels could get consistent work, along with the jays, phillies, and mariners.

junkman73
03-07-04, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by '04 TheSchillingEra
And the harshest media market is not Boston its NYC idiot.


Don't call me an idiot. I've spent the last 9 years in Boston and am well aware of the media enviroment there. Its the harshest baseball media market in the country because the championship starved fans wouldn't have it any other way. Guys like Shaugnessy love to play the "lovable loser" card like its their job...oh, wait...it is their jobs...

The Pats were about to win the Super Bowl and A-Rod was the #1 topic of conversation. Two years ago Nomar led a huge comeback against the Rangers and the press applauded him for his leadership, only to be chastised 2 weeks later for making a comment about southern California.

Two years ago when the rumor was Jim Thome leaving Cleveland for the Sox during the stretch run, friends of mine were fortunate to run into him at Daisy Buchanan's after a game. Jim told them Boston would be one of least likely places he want to come play in....WHY??? The media is relentless.

I'm not saying NYC can't be bad, but it usually isn't when you're winning.....

Babe Rules
03-07-04, 02:18 PM
1) Yankees
2) Cubs
3) A's
4) Sux
5) Houston

ruthianblast
03-08-04, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by Babe Rules
1) Yankees
2) Cubs
3) A's
4) Sux
5) Houston

can i just ask why you put the Yankees 1st? I'm not trying to attack just wondering what yur rational is.

Ca-ching!
03-08-04, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by ruthianblast


can i just ask why you put the Yankees 1st? I'm not trying to attack just wondering what yur rational is.

rational?!?!

actually, I believe the word you are looking for is bias

this would be more accurate
1) Cubs
2) sox
3)Oakland
4) Yankees
5) Astros

ACPS
03-08-04, 09:18 AM
The Cubs, A's, and Astros have very good staffs this season, butI think the top two in baseball are the Yankees and Sox, with neither having a clear-cut advantage. They both have the most depth, IMO. You could say Kim is an unproven #5 starter (despite reasonable success in the NL and AL), but there's also lingering doubts about Lieber. Schilling and Pedro when they're on would outweigh Vazquez and Brown, and Contreras has been less than impressive this spring. I'll take Mussina over Wakefield or Lowe. ;)

ForceFive
03-08-04, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by ACPS
The Cubs, A's, and Astros have very good staffs this season, butI think the top two in baseball are the Yankees and Sox, with neither having a clear-cut advantage. They both have the most depth, IMO. You could say Kim is an unproven #5 starter (despite reasonable success in the NL and AL), but there's also lingering doubts about Lieber. Schilling and Pedro when they're on would outweigh Vazquez and Brown, and Contreras has been less than impressive this spring. I'll take Mussina over Wakefield or Lowe. ;)

When i think of "staff" I think of bullpen too; the pitching staff 1-10 (or 11 in some cases). I honestly don't think any other team in this group has a top 3 in the pen as good as Quantrill, Gordon and Rivera. These 3 will play HUGE roles for the Yankees. Remember what an achilles heel setup relief was for the Yanks last year; it won't be that way this season. There is now a bridge from starters to Mariano Rivera.

That being said, I'd have to go with:
1. Cubs
Best rotation in MLB; Cruz/Remlinger/Hawkins/Borowski will make for a good back end of the bullpen.
2. Yankees
Mussina/Brown/Vazquez can matchup with any front 3 in MLB. Contreras has awesome stuff for a 4 starter, did great in 9 starts last year (and a year of adjustment under his belt). A healthy Lieber is an efficient 5th starter; always was a good command pitcher... is a workhorse that doesn't give many free rides. See bullpen comments above.
3. Oakland
2nd only to Cubs for starting rotation 1-5. Setup corp. is decent. If Rhodes were a proven closer, they might very well be #2.
4. Boston
Best 1-2 punch in MLB; back end of rotation is overrated. Lowe had a 4.50 era and only won 17 because of the best run support in MLB. Wakefield is very inconsistent - difficult to count on him start in and start out considering his out-pitch is a knuckle. Kim has good stuff, but has never made more than 12 starts in any season before; submariner-style pitchers usually do not make for effective starters. Williamson/Embree/Timlin/Foulke make for a very good pen - especially if they pitch as well as they did down the stretch and in the playoffs.
5. Houston tie
Deep, solid staff. Oswalt is a true ace. Clemens, Pettitte, Miller make for outstanding supporting cast. If Wagner were still here, this staff is ahead of Boston. Losing him takes a proven closer away and lessens the quality depth of the pen. But Lidge and Dotel should be very effective.
5 Philly tie
Rotation 1-4 is very potent. Wolf is actual ace instead of Millwood. Padilla is a very good, young pitcher with nasty stuff. Myers has great stuff as well, should improve even more with experience. Not sold on Milton and his career 4.70 ERA, however. Bullpen is VASTLY improved with Wagner and Worrell ending games.

hugelongtermdeal
03-08-04, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by '04 TheSchillingEra
And the harshest media market is not Boston its NYC idiot.



I think Boston's media is much worse.

yankees76
03-09-04, 03:28 AM
Boston media is much worse. NYC desk jockies can be mean, but their Boston colleagues are spiteful.

cubswin
03-09-04, 03:51 AM
I don't think the Cubs, Astros or As can be considered ahead of NY or the Sox b/c the differential at closer is so vast that it more than offsets any possible advantage in the rotation.

ruthianblast
03-09-04, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by cubswin
I don't think the Cubs, Astros or As can be considered ahead of NY or the Sox b/c the differential at closer is so vast that it more than offsets any possible advantage in the rotation.

Borowski is nothing to sneeze at, he's by no means wagner, rivera, or foulke, but with farnsworth and remlinger along with hawkins he doesn't need to be. I can easily see any of those three guys starting to close this year. This is also likely the best all-around bullpen in the majors, houston is very good and Boston/Yankees are dominant but Hawkins and Farnsworth could two of the best relievers in the game

cubswin
03-09-04, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by ruthianblast


Borowski is nothing to sneeze at, he's by no means wagner, rivera, or foulke, but with farnsworth and remlinger along with hawkins he doesn't need to be. I can easily see any of those three guys starting to close this year. This is also likely the best all-around bullpen in the majors, houston is very good and Boston/Yankees are dominant but Hawkins and Farnsworth could two of the best relievers in the game


Borowski's fine, I just put him behind Foulke and Rivera, as yuou pointed out, and I think the rest of the bullpen simply matches up w/the Yanks and Sox (Farnsworth/Hawkins/Remlinger/Hernandez = Williamson/Timlin/Embree/Arroyo = Gordon/Quantrill/etc.)

I think any of those team's setup men/middle relief could prove better in any given year, but there's a significant difference at the most important role. (For the same reason, I give the Yanks a slight edge over the Sox BP, especially in the postseason.)

ruthianblast
03-09-04, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by cubswin



Borowski's fine, I just put him behind Foulke and Rivera, as yuou pointed out, and I think the rest of the bullpen simply matches up w/the Yanks and Sox (Farnsworth/Hawkins/Remlinger/Hernandez = Williamson/Timlin/Embree/Arroyo = Gordon/Quantrill/etc.)

I think any of those team's setup men/middle relief could prove better in any given year, but there's a significant difference at the most important role. (For the same reason, I give the Yanks a slight edge over the Sox BP, especially in the postseason.)

Fair enough, but if Farnsworth starts to close with that wicked mean fastball, I would start getting very afraid

cubswin
03-09-04, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by ruthianblast


Fair enough, but if Farnsworth starts to close with that wicked mean fastball, I would start getting very afraid


Yes. He's been somewhat disappointing, IMO.

ruthianblast
03-09-04, 02:00 PM
had a pretty good year in '01 and came back a bit last year as well while being a shutdown reliever in the division series.

sanfranciscojetergirl
03-09-04, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by ForceFive


When i think of "staff" I think of bullpen too; the pitching staff 1-10 (or 11 in some cases). I honestly don't think any other team in this group has a top 3 in the pen as good as Quantrill, Gordon and Rivera. These 3 will play HUGE roles for the Yankees. Remember what an achilles heel setup relief was for the Yanks last year; it won't be that way this season. There is now a bridge from starters to Mariano Rivera.

That being said, I'd have to go with:
1. Cubs
Best rotation in MLB; Cruz/Remlinger/Hawkins/Borowski will make for a good back end of the bullpen.
2. Yankees
Mussina/Brown/Vazquez can matchup with any front 3 in MLB. Contreras has awesome stuff for a 4 starter, did great in 9 starts last year (and a year of adjustment under his belt). A healthy Lieber is an efficient 5th starter; always was a good command pitcher... is a workhorse that doesn't give many free rides. See bullpen comments above.
3. Oakland
2nd only to Cubs for starting rotation 1-5. Setup corp. is decent. If Rhodes were a proven closer, they might very well be #2.
4. Boston
Best 1-2 punch in MLB; back end of rotation is overrated. Lowe had a 4.50 era and only won 17 because of the best run support in MLB. Wakefield is very inconsistent - difficult to count on him start in and start out considering his out-pitch is a knuckle. Kim has good stuff, but has never made more than 12 starts in any season before; submariner-style pitchers usually do not make for effective starters. Williamson/Embree/Timlin/Foulke make for a very good pen - especially if they pitch as well as they did down the stretch and in the playoffs.
5. Houston tie
Deep, solid staff. Oswalt is a true ace. Clemens, Pettitte, Miller make for outstanding supporting cast. If Wagner were still here, this staff is ahead of Boston. Losing him takes a proven closer away and lessens the quality depth of the pen. But Lidge and Dotel should be very effective.
5 Philly tie
Rotation 1-4 is very potent. Wolf is actual ace instead of Millwood. Padilla is a very good, young pitcher with nasty stuff. Myers has great stuff as well, should improve even more with experience. Not sold on Milton and his career 4.70 ERA, however. Bullpen is VASTLY improved with Wagner and Worrell ending games.


Force Five, I agree with you on the cubs, but I would have the A's Second.

cubswin
03-09-04, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by sanfranciscojetergirl


Force Five, I agree with you on the cubs, but I would have the A's Second.


Out of curiosity, do you have more confidence in both teams' bullpens than I, think that their rotations outweigh the relative weakness in the pen, or both?