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KC
03-04-04, 05:50 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=wiley/040304


This feeding frenzy, the 'Roid Outrage, expressed, by us, about whether Barry Bonds used performance-enhancing dietary supplements or anabolic testosterone-based steroids, is a case of dry and bitter Sour Grapes. Period.

snip

It's all fine and good to make up myths about so many events, athletic ones included, that don't contain any African-Americans, and I don't have to list them all here, and in fact don't have time, but sometimes I get the feeling some sports fans would like it better if all of sports history was rather like an episode of "Friends." Fine, when it comes to making movies, and giving out awards, and waxing nostalgic. But it seems to me when a man spends 20 years showing merit, in reality, not fiction, he ought to able to eat his grapes without people saying how sour they are, what a cheater he is, how impure his records are, how what he's doing doesn't count in the grand scheme.

If you don't want to be called a cheater. . . don't cheat.

Mr. Mxylsplk
03-04-04, 06:27 PM
Jason Wiley's a terrible writer who's never met a problem he can't blame on racism.

RedGlare
03-04-04, 06:41 PM
It's all fine and good to make up myths about so many events, athletic ones included, that don't contain any African-Americans, and I don't have to list them all here, and in fact don't have time
Someone tell me why this guy gets to be paid to be a writer?
I mean... I'm a smart guy. I like to write. PAY ME!

Hell... I'll throw those CRAZY things call facts for free.

SINCE77 2
03-04-04, 07:12 PM
As I said before, no one put up much fuss about McGwire even after they found a bottle of "enhancers" in his locker. Gotta ask yourself as to why the press is going after Bonds so hard, but left Big Mac alone without much, if any talk about asteriks next to his homerun record. The article isn't great, but the premise isn't too big of a stretch.

Mr. Mxylsplk
03-04-04, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2
As I said before, no one put up much fuss about McGwire even after they found a bottle of "enhancers" in his locker. Gotta ask yourself as to why the press is going after Bonds so hard, but left Big Mac alone without much, if any talk about asteriks next to his homerun record. The article isn't great, but the premise isn't too big of a stretch.
Of course it is. First of all, you're wrong about McGwire - when it came out that he was using andro, there was tons of heat. As for the current ppress attention, Giambi, who last time I checked was white, is as much a focus of the stories right now as Bonds is. And of particular interest with Bonds, McGwire, bulked up in his 20's, when it's more reasonable for an athlete to be adding weight. Bonds bulked up in the latter half of his 30's, which simply almost never happens. For a guy to increase in size so much at 35 is a lot harder to believe than when he's 25.

SINCE77 2
03-04-04, 07:54 PM
McGwire got away with a pat on the wrist and is still held to high esteem by many fans. The press didn't hound McGwire with the same amount of zeal that they are doing with Barry. Futhermore, I'm well aware of Giambi's skin color, problem is unlike Bonds, he isn't the single season homerun king nor is he on his way to being the career homerun king. Apples and oranges. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that steroid use in baseball is ok or in any way excusing Bonds. Point is, if you are going to paint a picture of a tainted athlete be sure to use a roller and paint the whole picture to include McGwire/Sosa/Brett Boone/Giambi/Sheff and whoever else belongs there.

NYCVirago
03-04-04, 07:56 PM
This is a ridiculous article. And notice how Ralph Wiley conveniently leaves out this recent comment by Bonds:


Barry Bonds made only one statement Tuesday, but it was a defiant one. As he headed for the showers after a spring training workout -- walking past his godfather, Willie Mays -- Bonds appeared to declare himself the target in an ever-growing story about steroids in sports.

"The most wanted man in America," he said. Then, raising his fist in the air, he created a 1960s-style moment and added, "Black power."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/03/03/MNGUJ5D0SA1.DTL

What a thoroughly ridiculous thing for Bonds to say. When he's caught with his hand in the steroid cookie jar, he calls it racism. Tell it to Jason Giambi, Bill Romanowski, and Randy Velarde!

NYCVirago
03-04-04, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2
As I said before, no one put up much fuss about McGwire even after they found a bottle of "enhancers" in his locker. Gotta ask yourself as to why the press is going after Bonds so hard, but left Big Mac alone without much, if any talk about asteriks next to his homerun record. The article isn't great, but the premise isn't too big of a stretch. For starters, how about because andro was perfectly legal, but the steroids Bonds is accused of taking are not? Second, Bonds is accused not only of taking steroids, but being a conduit for other players to take steroids -- nobody ever made the same accusation for McGwire. Third, Wiley equates Ruth and Aaron as being somehow as "tainted" as Bonds, with no real evidence, other than wanting to build Bonds up by tearing others down. And finally, because this article ignores that Jason Giambi is getting just as negative media coverage as Bonds is, so skin color has nothing to do with it.

Mr. Mxylsplk
03-04-04, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2
McGwire got away with a pat on the wrist and is still held to high esteem by many fans. The press didn't hound McGwire with the same amount of zeal that they are doing with Barry.
McGwire was never closely tied with illegal steroid use as Bonds has now been by the Balco investigation. As you like to say, apples and oranges.

Originally posted by SINCE77 2
Futhermore, I'm well aware of Giambi's skin color, problem is unlike Bonds, he isn't the single season homerun king nor is he on his way to being the career homerun king. Apples and oranges.
What does the HR king thing have to do with it. Giambi's getting attention, Bonds is getting attention. By bringing in the HR thing, you seem to be illustrating my point exactly. Bonds gets more attention because he's a bigger star, and the guy who holds one of baseball's biggest records, and will likely soon hold another. It's only natural that a guy like that is a magnet for attention - but that has nothing whatever to do with race.

Originally posted by SINCE77 2
Point is, if you are going to paint a picture of a tainted athlete be sure to use a roller and paint the whole picture to include McGwire/Sosa/Brett Boone/Giambi/Sheff and whoever else belongs there.
Again, I don't know what you've been reading and listening to if you don't think Giambi and Sheff aren't being painted into the picture. And as I said, I don't know why anyone would think Bonds getting more attention than those two has to do with anything but that he's a bigger star. (Plus, by being so surly all the time with the press, he's probably a guy many reporters wouldn't mind seeing go down, but again, that's irrelevant of race).

Don Mack
03-04-04, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Mxylsplk
Jason Wiley's a terrible writer who's never met a problem he can't blame on racism.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what I thought when I started to read the article. Oh here comes the usual cry "they're all picking on me because I'm black."

What I really like about this thing is that if McGwire (White) Sosa (Hispanic) and Bonds (Black) ALL used steroids during the time they set those records, then I feel those records should be thrown out. In fact, I already feel that Roger Maris is still the all-time single season home run champion with 61. So, Bonds can't cry about being picked on because he's black nor can any black writer if they throw them all out.

Furthermore, I was suspicious when McGwire hit 70 homers in one season which was just unheard of. If they were aided by steroids, strike them from the record book. But I must admit, that it couldn't happen to a more arrogant a$$ than Bogus Barry Bonds. Will Joe Buck and Tim McCarver still love him? Only time will tell. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

caroline331
03-04-04, 09:43 PM
in a NY times article today, Bonds could have taken sterioid that were "accidentally" placed in his nutritional shakes.


Sssssssuuuuuuurrrrrrreeeeeee

SuperMario66
03-04-04, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by caroline331
in a NY times article today, Bonds could have taken sterioid that were "accidentally" placed in his nutritional shakes.


Sssssssuuuuuuurrrrrrreeeeeee

Oh yeah, they were mailed to him, but we can't be sure he ingested them... whatever.

SINCE77 2
03-04-04, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by NYCVirago
For starters, how about because andro was perfectly legal, but the steroids Bonds is accused of taking are not? Second, Bonds is accused not only of taking steroids, but being a conduit for other players to take steroids -- nobody ever made the same accusation for McGwire. Third, Wiley equates Ruth and Aaron as being somehow as "tainted" as Bonds, with no real evidence, other than wanting to build Bonds up by tearing others down. And finally, because this article ignores that Jason Giambi is getting just as negative media coverage as Bonds is, so skin color has nothing to do with it.


For starters, from what I understand THG was unknown until the Balco scandal and human growth hormone is not illegal. Secondly, can you or anyone provide proof or substantiate any claims that Bonds peddled steroids? I'm no fan of Bonds, but he is innocent until proven guilty. When and if his body breaks down in a few years then the truth will come out, just like it has with McGwire. Giambi bought a lot of that on himself by showing up to camp with a Anna Nicole Smith makeover. He better zero in on that short RF porch at the stadium in 2004. All I'm saying is if you bring down Barry, bring them all down, McGwire included.

cubswin
03-04-04, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2



For starters, from what I understand THG was unknown until the Balco scandal and human growth hormone is not illegal. Secondly, can you or anyone provide proof or substantiate any claims that Bonds peddled steroids? ...


Actually, I believe human growth hormone is a controlled substance.

Re. Bonds, in addition to the other circumstantial evidence, to me, his head growing multiple hat sizes at the same time that his performance took off seems pretty damning. Your head does not grow from working out.

KLJ
03-04-04, 11:54 PM
this article is pathetic from beggining to end... racist garbage... how this trash even gets printed is beyond me... how anyone can justify it is even more pathetic... i'll stop now before i say something that might really upset people

NYCVirago
03-05-04, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by caroline331
in a NY times article today, Bonds could have taken sterioid that were "accidentally" placed in his nutritional shakes.


Sssssssuuuuuuurrrrrrreeeeeee I don't even think that kid in the anti-pot commercials would have the guts to try that excuse. Maybe we need that kid's mother to do some anti-steroid ads: "When I say no 'roids, I mean NO 'ROIDS!"

NYCVirago
03-05-04, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2

Secondly, can you or anyone provide proof or substantiate any claims that Bonds peddled steroids? Go back and read the original San Francisco Chronicle article on the story; it has much more detail on this. To sum it up, Bonds had friendships with Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield, and introduced them to Anderson, his personal trainer and BALCO supplier. Benard and Santiago, who were on the Giants on the time, met Anderson through his visits to see Bonds. Bonds is like the Forrest Gump of steroids!

SuperMario66
03-05-04, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by NYCVirago
I don't even think that kid in the anti-pot commercials would have the guts to try that excuse. Maybe we need that kid's mother to do some anti-steroid ads: "When I say no 'roids, I mean NO 'ROIDS!"

I don't know if the boards are really this funny tonight or if I am just really sleepy, but ya'll are cracking me up. Hilarious! :lol:

SINCE77 2
03-05-04, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by NYCVirago
Go back and read the original San Francisco Chronicle article on the story; it has much more detail on this. To sum it up, Bonds had friendships with Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield, and introduced them to Anderson, his personal trainer and BALCO supplier. Benard and Santiago, who were on the Giants on the time, met Anderson through his visits to see Bonds. Bonds is like the Forrest Gump of steroids!

Mark McGwire took Jason Giambi under his wing while in Oakland. Should I assume a steroid connection?

SINCE77 2
03-05-04, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by cubswin



Actually, I believe human growth hormone is a controlled substance.

Re. Bonds, in addition to the other circumstantial evidence, to me, his head growing multiple hat sizes at the same time that his performance took off seems pretty darning. Your head does not grow from working out.


Bottom line is that I personally don't care if Bonds gets stripped of his titles, just make sure that the single season hr record gets stripped back to Maris.

SINCE77 2
03-05-04, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by KLJ
this article is pathetic from beggining to end... racist garbage... how this trash even gets printed is beyond me... how anyone can justify it is even more pathetic... i'll stop now before i say something that might really upset people


Please go on.

NYCVirago
03-05-04, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2


Mark McGwire took Jason Giambi under his wing while in Oakland. Should I assume a steroid connection? It wouldn't be the first time somebody has suggested that, although McGwire was open about using andro and creatine.

NYCVirago
03-05-04, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by SuperMario66


I don't know if the boards are really this funny tonight or if I am just really sleepy, but ya'll are cracking me up. Hilarious! :lol: Thanks! ;)

Mr. Mxylsplk
03-05-04, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2
Mark McGwire took Jason Giambi under his wing while in Oakland. Should I assume a steroid connection?
Mark McGwire - never, ever linked directly to steroids.
Jason Giambi - teammate, friend and weight training buddy of a guy who was never, ever, linked to steroids.
Barry Bonds - named directly in a federal trial as having bought steroids.

The fact that you fail to see the difference between Bonds and the first two shows that you have little grasp of the reality of the situation.

Mr. Mxylsplk
03-05-04, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2
Secondly, can you or anyone provide proof or substantiate any claims that Bonds peddled steroids? I'm no fan of Bonds, but he is innocent until proven guilty.
Correct. That's why he's a free man, instead of in jail. What does that have to do with Wiley's article?

JeffWeaverFan
03-05-04, 02:32 AM
I started reading this article but couldn't finish it because it was so stupid. He was saying things like why hasn't Bonds broken down yet if he was taking steroids? Well, it's because for a lot of people steroids don't break you down for many years and he didn't start taking them until 2001 (or at least that's when he first reportedly was given steroids from BALCO). There is going to be an asterisk on his record maybe not literally, but I think in every baseball fans head they will put an asterisk in it. I know I will never think of Barry Bonds as the holder of the single season home record.

SINCE77 2
03-05-04, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Mxylsplk

Mark McGwire - never, ever linked directly to steroids.
Jason Giambi - teammate, friend and weight training buddy of a guy who was never, ever, linked to steroids.
Barry Bonds - named directly in a federal trial as having bought steroids.

The fact that you fail to see the difference between Bonds and the first two shows that you have little grasp of the reality of the situation.

Have you seen McGwire lately? Don't know about you but I don't need a federal indictment to see what he did. Can you say with absolute certainty that he never passed any enhancement tips to Giambi? BTW, can you personally vouch for the sincerity and veracity of the so called anonymous source that is leaking this stuff? If you can then you need to contact the US Attorney's office. Otherwise, you know as much as anyone else, which is basically nothing regarding this case.

SINCE77 2
03-05-04, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Mxylsplk

Correct. That's why he's a free man, instead of in jail. What does that have to do with Wiley's article?


I've chosen to leave the premise of Wiley's article out of any further discussions. I come here to enjoy baseball, not to discuss race in America. If you chose to turn a blind eye to the problems that are endemic to a heterogenous society than that is your perogative. Heck, as long as it stays in bathroom stalls its not your problem is it. Barry recieved "hatemail" during his run for the single season homerun title, but thats not your problem . Afterall Maris got hatemail as well, just part of the game. The problem lies in the content of their respective pieces of mail. Have a good day, I'm done with this thread.

LoneRedSeat
03-05-04, 10:54 AM
I'm not a big Wiley fan, but I do respect his opinions. I just think he went too far with this article.

I do agree with Wiley that, if Bonds were white, and media friendly/savy the situation would be vastly different.

The main problem I have with the piece is the fact that Henry Aaron, a black man, holds the home run record. I think everyone is very well aware of that fact. Wiley alludes to Aaron in his article, but seems to ignore the fact that in order to become the home run king, Bonds will displace Aaron, not Ruth.

Further, we all know how Roger Maris, a white man, was treated when he was chasing Ruth's single season record. There is a clear track record of people in this country taking umbruge with anyone, of any color, passing the Babe on the record lists.

On Bonds/Balco/stats - I'm still not sure what to think. Try taking Bonds' side for a moment. There are a number of points we can argue:

1. If Bonds was juicing, wouldn't he have shrunk (ala Giambi) at least a little bit this year? Have you seen Bonds this season? He looks bigger than ever!

2. Bonds is an amazing baseball player. He had the career stats and accolades of a baseball deity well before his home run chase. It can be argued that he saw the home run record was attainable if he changed his approach at the plate, and commited himself to an intense training regimine.

3. Is it really that far a stretch for a man just under 40 to produce such awesome power numbers? Hank Aaron produced some amazing power numbers in his late 30s. From the ages of 35-39-years old, Aaron hit: 44, 38, 47, 34, and 40 home runs. The most impressive of those stats is the 40 homers at 39-years-old because Aaron did it in only 392 at bats.

Mr. Mxylsplk
03-05-04, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by SINCE77 2
I come here to enjoy baseball, not to discuss race in America.

Despite that initial sentence, SINCE77 2 immediately thereafter posted
If you chose to turn a blind eye to the problems that are endemic to a heterogenous society than that is your perogative. Heck, as long as it stays in bathroom stalls its not your problem is it. Barry recieved "hatemail" during his run for the single season homerun title, but thats not your problem . Afterall Maris got hatemail as well, just part of the game. The problem lies in the content of their respective pieces of mail
Ummm, yeah whatever. Wake me when you start making a shred of sense. (And when you stop denying what you're talking about).

RedGlare
03-05-04, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by LoneRedSeat
I do agree with Wiley that, if Bonds were white, and media friendly/savy the situation would be vastly different.
Tiger is smashing every white man golf record ever... and the press loves him.

Sammy Sosa had the press turning everything he said into gold (before the cork thing) and he isn't white.

Baseball has asked every team to retired number 42 out of respect for Robinson and the fans love it....

The reason Bonds feels under so much pressure is because the world thinks he cheated.

NYCVirago
03-05-04, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by LoneRedSeat
I'm not a big Wiley fan, but I do respect his opinions. I just think he went too far with this article.

I do agree with Wiley that, if Bonds were white, and media friendly/savy the situation would be vastly different.
I disagree on the race thing. For proof that it makes no difference, look at Jason Giambi. When he came into spring training and claimed he only lost four pounds, even though he looked a lot leaner, sportswriters were all over him, and openly mocking his claims. And they've given him a hard time this week.

As for the other suggestion, that Bonds is getting treated worse because he's not "media friendly/savvy", I suppose a case could be made on that. But then again, the media has protected him by most of them not publishing that Bonds called himself "the most wanted man in America," and raised his fist in the air and said "black power."

RedGlare
03-05-04, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by NYCVirago
I disagree on the race thing. For proof that it makes no difference, look at Jason Giambi. When he came into spring training and claimed he only lost four pounds, even though he looked a lot leaner, sportswriters were all over him, and openly mocking his claims. And they've given him a hard time this week.And even if Bond 'got it worse' than Giambi it is because the impilcations.

If it came out that Giambi used 'roids he ruins his career and taints a few games

If it came out that Bonds used 'roids he ruins the game of baseball and taints the record books.

bobby jr
03-05-04, 09:45 PM
What nonsense. As if the overwhelming evidence that Bonds cheated has anything to do with racism. I also think McGwire and Sosa cheated and all three records should be wiped off the books. The evidence is too strong to ignore and pretend that their accomplisments were legit. They were not. All three of them almost certainly used steroids, McGwire admitted he used Andro, and Sosa probably used both steroids and a corked bat when he hit over 60 HR's.

I would concur that Maris should hold the HR record. It is time for MLB and Selig to stand up and do what is right.

NJOBP36
03-05-04, 09:50 PM
Why is Maris doing it in more than 154 games any different? Are we going to erase pitching records from the 20's now?

NYCVirago
03-06-04, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by RedGlare
And even if Bond 'got it worse' than Giambi it is because the impilcations.

If it came out that Giambi used 'roids he ruins his career and taints a few games

If it came out that Bonds used 'roids he ruins the game of baseball and taints the record books. Excellent points -- I didn't even think of that!