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Stryder2929
02-21-04, 02:33 PM
Arod, Bonds or Pujols?




Support your argument with fact if at all possible.. I'd like to get a debate on the yankee board about this going.


Obviously Bonds has some pretty incredible stats, but does that warrant him title of best in the game?

cubswin
02-21-04, 02:45 PM
A-Rod, as a SS, b/c of his position. Jury out until we see his performance as a 3B, though. I expect the answer will remain the same.

YankeePride1967
02-21-04, 02:47 PM
ARod. Offensively you can make a case for all three, but defensively, Bonds is not the player he used to be and Pujols has yet to find a position the Cards feel comfortable with whereas ARod is every bit as good with the glove as he is with the bat.

yanquis1972
02-21-04, 02:47 PM
a-rod, because he brings the full package of youth, great offense, and great defense, unlike either pujols or bonds. obviously a-rod's value is now much diminished (at 3B) but he's still the best PLAYER of the three, imo.

Mr. Mxylsplk
02-21-04, 02:50 PM
A-Rod. Nothing to explain that hasn't been stated in the posts above.

Rich
02-21-04, 02:52 PM
A-Rod.

AnthonyC60
02-21-04, 02:55 PM
I am a die hard yankee fan and that being said...i would have to say yes its arod..but overall in the whole picture of the game...i would have to say pedro even though i wish him the worst...i mean i hate him beyound hate...but he is the best player in the game..lets face it you only see a batter about every 3rd inning but a pitcher is up there for 6-8 innings and when pedro is on the hill there is no better :barf: i cant believe i just said that..but the guy is a modern day Kofax (sorry about spelling)

GravyMaster3
02-21-04, 02:55 PM
Hands down, ARod

Buzah!
02-21-04, 03:17 PM
A-Rod.

cubswin
02-21-04, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60
I am a die hard yankee fan and that being said...i would have to say yes its arod..but overall in the whole picture of the game...i would have to say pedro even though i wish him the worst...i mean i hate him beyound hate...but he is the best player in the game..lets face it you only see a batter about every 3rd inning but a pitcher is up there for 6-8 innings and when pedro is on the hill there is no better :barf: i cant believe i just said that..but the guy is a modern day Kofax (sorry about spelling)

I wasn't counting pitchers (starting or relieft) -- that's a completely different discussion in and of itself.

Call Me Bambino
02-21-04, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60
I am a die hard yankee fan and that being said...i would have to say yes its arod..but overall in the whole picture of the game...i would have to say pedro even though i wish him the worst...i mean i hate him beyound hate...but he is the best player in the game..lets face it you only see a batter about every 3rd inning but a pitcher is up there for 6-8 innings and when pedro is on the hill there is no better :barf: i cant believe i just said that..but the guy is a modern day Kofax (sorry about spelling)

Problem is, Pedro rarely goes 8 innings. We've been over this before. Pedro hasn't thrown 200 innings since 2000, he's not the dominating guy he used to be. And while yes, a batter only bats once every 2 or 3 innings, he's in field every play of EVERY GAME. A starting pitcher is only around once every five.

Anyhoo, my vote for best player is A-Rod, but best hitter has to go with Pujols. He's looking to settle down at first base now, but thats such an offensively oriented position, I have a hard time giving him best player.

Best pitcher, i'd have to go with Mark Prior.

Dave in MD
02-21-04, 03:21 PM
If roids are still legal Bonds is the best position player in the game. He's not the guy you would want in the long term. But he is the most dominant offensive player.

AnthonyC60
02-21-04, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by cubswin


I wasn't counting pitchers (starting or relieft) -- that's a completely different discussion in and of itself.

I dont understand how thats a different discussion..its not like football where if your talking best of all time you dont include kickers cause they arent football players, so you gotta take pitching into consideration

AnthonyC60
02-21-04, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Call Me Bambino


Problem is, Pedro rarely goes 8 innings. We've been over this before. Pedro hasn't thrown 200 innings since 2000, he's not the dominating guy he used to be. And while yes, a batter only bats once every 2 or 3 innings, he's in field every play of EVERY GAME. A starting pitcher is only around once every five.


Definitly totally agree he doesnt go 8 innings as for the 200 innings i see it meaningless as the is domination unlike what you have stated the guy comes close to or wins the triple crown just about darn near every year, and that even during the last 3 years when hes been in a decline supposidly, and yes the player is in the field everygame ...but if the opposition cant hit what good are the fielders? im not pedro in anyway but the guy is head and shoulders above the rest

deranged2005
02-21-04, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60
I dont understand how thats a different discussion..its not like football where if your talking best of all time you dont include kickers cause they arent football players, so you gotta take pitching into consideration

It's pretty darn hard to kick a football 45 yards.

rightfielder21
02-21-04, 03:33 PM
A-Rod...

Yankee Steve
02-21-04, 03:40 PM
I would say Bonds, if it was for one year. Arod, if it were for the next 7 years, and Pujols if it were for the next 15 years. No one is the equal of Bonds today, at least speaking offensively. Compare his strikeout to walk ratio with A-Rod. As good as Arod's offensive numbers are, Bonds is better. Playing Leftfield, the defensive ability is not really all that major an issue. Pujols is a terrific hitter, but he is a defensive liability, which to me brings him below Arod... but it is close. He is a FANTASTIC hitter and is still VERY young.

cubswin
02-21-04, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60


I dont understand how thats a different discussion..its not like football where if your talking best of all time you dont include kickers cause they arent football players, so you gotta take pitching into consideration

for clarification, what I meant is that many people question whether you can compare starters or closers to everyday player. to simply compare Pedro to Pujols is EXTREMELY difficult w/o first agreeing on their positions' relative value, IMO.

pacewon
02-21-04, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60
lets face it you only see a batter about every 3rd inning but a pitcher is up there for 6-8 innings

A pitcher only plays every 5th day though while a hitter plays every day. And the hitter is in the field during each inning that the pitcher throws

Best player is A-Rod hands down

yeahimweird
02-21-04, 03:49 PM
A-Rod, no question. I said this long before he even became a Yankee.

Snap731
02-21-04, 03:52 PM
A-Rod. And NOW WE HAVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Gozzlehead
02-21-04, 04:01 PM
Derek Sanderson Jeter

Dave in MD
02-21-04, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Gozzlehead
Derek Sanderson Jeter

Your joking, right?

Saxmania
02-21-04, 04:07 PM
Not trying to prove anything, just FYI:


Win Shares for 2003
1. A. Pujols - 41.13
2. B. Bonds - 39.21
3. G. Sheffield - 34.51
4. T. Helton - 33.52
5. A. Rodriguez - 32.51
6. C. Delgado - 32.31
7. J. Thome - 30.00

But because of position scarcity, you could make a good case for Rodriguez. Interestingly, the highest-ranked pitcher was Gagne. Anyway, I'll brace myself for another barrage of "bogus stat" posts . . .

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

flutie22
02-21-04, 04:10 PM
i would say a-rod just because he has put up huge numbers his whole career but i might rather have pujols because of his age, versatility etc.
he's gross

yanquis1972
02-21-04, 04:11 PM
it's hard to eliminate context from the equation, but i'd say bonds has been better than a-rod the past 3 seasons. he's also 40 years old and on steroids and i don't like him. in 2003 pujols had a "career" year, a-rod had a so-so (by his standards) one. i'm also going to guess that win shares undervalues defense a tad.

edit: about defense, the difference between pujols and a-rod defensively by win shares was +4 a-rod. the difference between pujols (.359/.439/.667) and sheffield (.330/.419/.604) with the bat was +7 pujols. my gut tells me the difference between an above average shortstop and an average leftfielder should be at least that.

-tz
02-21-04, 05:28 PM
Ours. ;)

Gozzlehead
02-21-04, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Dave in MD


Your joking, right?

Torre says he wouldn't trade him for anyone else in baseball and I agree with him.

SODM
02-21-04, 08:53 PM
I can't believe Vlad's name has not been even MENTIONED in this thread yet.
I think defense sets him apart from Pujols.
And I don't think I need to reference any hitting stats to illustrate what a GREAT hitter he was for the Expos of all teams.

ruthianblast
02-21-04, 11:26 PM
i'm going to go with rodriguez, but pujols is close, and if vernon wells can improve or duplicate what he did last year he could make this discussion very interesting. can't stand bonds, he will never be on any list i make of great players.

MulderHudsonZito
02-22-04, 12:01 AM
I like Jose Hernandez. He's the best player in Reverse Fantasy Baseball.

12soriano2B
02-22-04, 12:09 AM
aside from a bum back, i see nothing wrong with guerrero

12soriano2B
02-22-04, 12:10 AM
don't even get me started on bonds...

sugmasterflex
02-22-04, 05:54 AM
With a general review: A-Rod or Pujols or Bonds

Upon further review: A-Rod or Pujols

Final review: A-Rod

WIZ
02-22-04, 09:18 AM
A-Rod.

Red Sox 2004
02-22-04, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Gozzlehead
Derek Sanderson Jeter

Not even the best SS on your team, let alone best player.


My vote is for Pujols. However I also pretty much agree with the 1, 7, & 15 year predictions made above.

BruceCampbellKG7
02-22-04, 11:39 AM
The best player in the game is Mark Prior. Pitchers are what wins games, and he's the best in baseball. He's better than anything the Sox have, he's better than anything the Yankees have, he's simply the best, and he's the best player in baseball

KC
02-22-04, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Yankee Steve
I would say Bonds, if it was for one year. Arod, if it were for the next 7 years, and Pujols if it were for the next 15 years.

That's a very good analysis. I agree 100%.

YankyDave
02-22-04, 12:33 PM
Pujols, hands down.

YankeePride1967
02-22-04, 12:48 PM
If baseball was strictly an offensive game you could say Bonds or Pujols as both I think are slightly better all-round hitters, but Bonds is not even close to the player defensively he was and Pujols is not good at all defensively while ARod excels. All around game is ARod by a good distance.

Call Me Bambino
02-22-04, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60


Definitly totally agree he doesnt go 8 innings as for the 200 innings i see it meaningless as the is domination unlike what you have stated the guy comes close to or wins the triple crown just about darn near every year, and that even during the last 3 years when hes been in a decline supposidly, and yes the player is in the field everygame ...but if the opposition cant hit what good are the fielders? im not pedro in anyway but the guy is head and shoulders above the rest

How can you say not getting 200ip a year is meaningless? Keep in mind, ip says exactly how many guys you got out that year! What could possibly more important than getting people out?

If you're going to say he's dominating (which I think is what you're saying) you have to take into account that he's not impacted that many games, and not getting that many outs. He certainly was nowhere near the triple crown last year. He only had 14 wins (blame the ip, not the bp). Prior is a better pitcher than Martinez.

AnthonyC60
02-22-04, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Call Me Bambino


How can you say not getting 200ip a year is meaningless? Keep in mind, ip says exactly how many guys you got out that year! What could possibly more important than getting people out?

If you're going to say he's dominating (which I think is what you're saying) you have to take into account that he's not impacted that many games, and not getting that many outs. He certainly was nowhere near the triple crown last year. He only had 14 wins (blame the ip, not the bp). Prior is a better pitcher than Martinez.

If your gonna argue that please provide proof of this, you go on stating that under 200 ip is bad, then you go and say Prior is better ?
S G CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
2002 19 1 0 116.2 98 45 43 14 38 147 6 6 - 3.32
2003 30 3 1 211.1 183 67 57 15 50 245 18 6 2.43
Only 11 innings over that 200 inning mark
S G CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
2002 30 2 0 199.1 144 62 50 13 40 239 20 4 - 2.26
2003 29 3 0 186.2 147 52 46 7 47 206 14 4 2.22
Pedro has pitched more innings that Prior over the course of the past 2 seasons, and honestly if your a real baseball follower after seeing these numbers your still gonna sit there in and say Prior is better, if so i dont know what to tell you, oh and by Pedro not pitching 200+ innings isnt really a facto when you look at the win percentage and the horrific Boston bullpen, and if your one of those guys who says hes been pitching under 200 innings for the past 3 years well did we all forget, about his injury shortend 2001 season?? Now your gonna say that Prior was hurt in 2002 and thats why his numbers are like that but in 2001 Pedro also pitched the same innings as him
S G CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
2001 18 1 0 116.2 84 33 31 5 25 163 7 3 - 2.39
Still Pedro has a better year....So where do u get that Prior is better???

NJOBP36
02-22-04, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by GoRocket
If baseball was strictly an offensive game you could say Bonds or Pujols as both I think are slightly better all-round hitters, but Bonds is not even close to the player defensively he was and Pujols is not good at all defensively while ARod excels. All around game is ARod by a good distance.

Pujols is pretty good defensively IMO.

Brent
02-22-04, 09:38 PM
I live near St. Louis, and I have to watch alot of Cardinal games over the course of the season, and pujols is a terrible 3rd baseman. Before the arm injurty he had a decent arm, but NO accuracy. Why do you think they want him at 1st base so bad?

NJOBP36
02-22-04, 10:02 PM
It's a very small sample size but BP's Rate2 ranks Pujols as very good at third base.
2002-55 G, +37.3 per 162 games
2003-41, +11.3

Nettles dfw
02-22-04, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
Not trying to prove anything, just FYI:


Win Shares for 2003
1. A. Pujols - 41.13
2. B. Bonds - 39.21
3. G. Sheffield - 34.51
4. T. Helton - 33.52
5. A. Rodriguez - 32.51
6. C. Delgado - 32.31
7. J. Thome - 30.00

But because of position scarcity, you could make a good case for Rodriguez. Interestingly, the highest-ranked pitcher was Gagne. Anyway, I'll brace myself for another barrage of "bogus stat" posts . . .

Be seeing you,

Saxmania Very Interesting. Thanks for the (counting stat) info. I'm GUESING Pujols' higher than Bonds total is driven by his playing in 20% more games (157 to 130). Certainly Bonds had justifiable reasons for his absences last year. But, in the context of looking at last year, I think it is reasonable to include this tool which highlights Pujols 2003 contributions.

That being said, I still lean towards ARod (if at ss). Thinking that his offense vs an average ss and his defense vs an average ss are significant.

yanquis1972
02-22-04, 11:03 PM
UZR has pujols at -2 range runs, +2 arm runs per 162 games(dead average overall) in 95 games played, surprisingly enough. i've been able to watch quite a few cardinals games but haven't yet caught him playing third.

jaked13
02-23-04, 01:29 AM
Bonds- Is the best overall player of the 3 listed. Although his career is at its end there is no denying that he has produced over the entire length of his career, regardless as to the speculation of why. The stats he has put up are absolutely outstanding and are only rivaled by the what any reasonable baseball person would attest to who are the best players ever in the game's history. To mention his MVP's and Gold Gloves as reasons I don't think would be fair, because the voting for those awards creates an entire different discussion. Some stats over his18 yr Career: 1,941R, 658HR, 1,742RBI, 2,070BB, .297BA, .609SLG%, .433OB%, 500SB. Now if I'm starting my franchise tomorrow do I take Bonds first? Of course not, which leads to the the next two players...
Bond stats (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=bondsba01)
ARod- While he has alittle over half the time Bonds does in MLB, his stats would project to be close to the categories listed for Bonds above other than BB's. But that is just a projection and isn't fair to debate that point until ARod has 8 more ML seasons. Some stats over 10 seasons: 1,009R, 345HR, 990RBI, 559BB, .308BA, .581SLG%, .382OB%, 177SB. If I'm starting my franchise tomorrow do I take ARod first? Yes, and although he's now moved to 3B, his is has been a ML SS for 8 seasons with great success to this point and will be 29 yrs old in July - hence the prime of his career- and would be a starting SS on any other ML team. . And the first player I would start my franchise out with is SS - not a LF, especially one that puts up offensive numbers & plays defensive the way ARod does.
ARod stats (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=rodrial01)
Pujols - While AP has put up stagering numbers in his first three ML seasons, it is just - 3 yrs. I don't mean to degrade what he has done with the stick for the Redbirds, but I don't think there is much arguement that Arod is a better defensive player at a tougher position. As far as Bonds I would say its close to a push because of Bond's age at this time (like I said, I will avoid the Gold Glove talk). Some stats over 3 seasons: 367R, 114HR, 381RBI, 220BB, .334BA, .613SLG%, .412OB%, 8SB. If I'm starting my franchise tomorrow do I take Pujols first? No, and I understand Vlad wasn't a name given, but to leave him out of this I discussion I just can't do, so I take him 2nd, and AP 3rd.
Pujols stats (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/player.php?p=pujolal01)
The way I like to think or judge these 3 players with the bat, is who would I not want to pitch to with the game on the line; the bases loaded and down 2 runs in the bottom of the 9th. 1) Bonds 2) Pujols 3) Arod.
It's difficult to come up with a defensive senario to judge because of the difference in the positions so if someone out there has good senario I would like to here one.

Call Me Bambino
02-23-04, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60


If your gonna argue that please provide proof of this, you go on stating that under 200 ip is bad, then you go and say Prior is better ?
S G CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
2002 19 1 0 116.2 98 45 43 14 38 147 6 6 - 3.32
2003 30 3 1 211.1 183 67 57 15 50 245 18 6 2.43
Only 11 innings over that 200 inning mark
S G CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
2002 30 2 0 199.1 144 62 50 13 40 239 20 4 - 2.26
2003 29 3 0 186.2 147 52 46 7 47 206 14 4 2.22
Pedro has pitched more innings that Prior over the course of the past 2 seasons, and honestly if your a real baseball follower after seeing these numbers your still gonna sit there in and say Prior is better, if so i dont know what to tell you, oh and by Pedro not pitching 200+ innings isnt really a facto when you look at the win percentage and the horrific Boston bullpen, and if your one of those guys who says hes been pitching under 200 innings for the past 3 years well did we all forget, about his injury shortend 2001 season?? Now your gonna say that Prior was hurt in 2002 and thats why his numbers are like that but in 2001 Pedro also pitched the same innings as him
S G CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L ERA
2001 18 1 0 116.2 84 33 31 5 25 163 7 3 - 2.39
Still Pedro has a better year....So where do u get that Prior is better???

Of course Pedro threw more innings over the past 2 seasons as last year was Prior's first full year! If YOU were a real baseball follower you'd know 19 games is not a full season for a starter. He wasn't hurt, he was in AAA. That's why you couldn't find 2001 stats for him. He had a killer year last year, and his numbers are getting better. Pedro's ip has been getting consistenly worse. You're saying its not a factor because of the bad bullpen? Thats ludicrous! When your bullpen is weak, you need to throw MORE innings to compensate so they don't come in and lose the game for you! Fact is, Prior gets more guys out than Pedro does, thats what ip means. I refuse to consider a guy who has a TERRIBLE ip be considered the best pitcher in baseball, let alone best player. Thats like calling a guy who hits .255 the best hitter in baseball.

AnthonyC60
02-23-04, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Call Me Bambino


Of course Pedro threw more innings over the past 2 seasons as last year was Prior's first full year! If YOU were a real baseball follower you'd know 19 games is not a full season for a starter. He wasn't hurt, he was in AAA. That's why you couldn't find 2001 stats for him. He had a killer year last year, and his numbers are getting better. Pedro's ip has been getting consistenly worse. You're saying its not a factor because of the bad bullpen? Thats ludicrous! When your bullpen is weak, you need to throw MORE innings to compensate so they don't come in and lose the game for you! Fact is, Prior gets more guys out than Pedro does, thats what ip means. I refuse to consider a guy who has a TERRIBLE ip be considered the best pitcher in baseball, let alone best player. Thats like calling a guy who hits .255 the best hitter in baseball.

You have no arguement.....You have nothing to base this on, how bout we go back to 2001 and call Derek Lowe the best pitcher??? One year doesnt show crap....and as for you being a real baseball fan i guess you dont really follow what the real experts have to say, your opinion means about as much to me as if one of the red sox dieing.....Prior better then Pedro come on a 4 year old can answer that question...ill leave me phone number at a later time that way you can call me when the seasons over and Pedro is head and shoulders above the rest like all previous years and tell me i was right..

AnthonyC60
02-23-04, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Call Me Bambino


He wasn't hurt, he was in AAA. That's why you couldn't find 2001 stats for him. He had a killer year last year, and his numbers are getting better. [/QUOTE
Um first off he was injured down the stretch in 2002, check your stats buddy, Secondly so you have a crystal ball and know his numbers are gonna improve??? COME ON !!!!!


[/B][/QUOTE You're saying its not a factor because of the bad bullpen? Thats ludicrous! When your bullpen is weak, you need to throw MORE innings to compensate so they don't come in and lose the game for you! [/B][/QUOTE

So he should have pitched 9-11 complete games last year then??? Did you even follow baseball last year??? the guy pitched well into the 7thinning in those starts that would have went down as a win.....Oh and hes got the best WHIP of all time just to throw that in there

Call Me Bambino
02-23-04, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by AnthonyC60
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Call Me Bambino


He wasn't hurt, he was in AAA. That's why you couldn't find 2001 stats for him. He had a killer year last year, and his numbers are getting better. [/QUOTE
Um first off he was injured down the stretch in 2002, check your stats buddy, Secondly so you have a crystal ball and know his numbers are gonna improve??? COME ON !!!!!


[/QUOTE You're saying its not a factor because of the bad bullpen? Thats ludicrous! When your bullpen is weak, you need to throw MORE innings to compensate so they don't come in and lose the game for you! [/B][/QUOTE

So he should have pitched 9-11 complete games last year then??? Did you even follow baseball last year??? the guy pitched well into the 7thinning in those starts that would have went down as a win.....Oh and hes got the best WHIP of all time just to throw that in there [/B]

Are you even reading what you're writing? I'm saying Prior is a better pitcher because he's better NOW, because he's young, so, even without a crystal ball, I'm gonna bet that he's going to improve. Derek Lowe's aberration two years ago is irrlevant. Every baseball expert, as well as my own following of baseball, has given me every reason to believe Prior is still on the rise. He's only 23, for crying out loud! Do you actually think he's peaked? If you do, then I simply won't talk to you anymore, because I have no explanation for that.
However, Martinez is old (32 is old for that frame), and, more importantly, his arm can't take a full season's work anymore. He was gassed in the playoffs last year after coming in below 190 innings. And I'm not saying he should have pitched any specific number of complete games, however YOU said the IP was irrelevant because they had a bad bullpen, and thats simply nonsense. Pedro wasn't the best pitcher in baseball last year, the year before or the year before that. So I don't know what you're talking about with this head and shoulders above the leage every year crap.

Prior did NOT start 2002 with the Cubs. In fact, his major league debut wasn't until almost June of that year. Look it up if you want. That's why using two year numbers is pointless with a guy in his first full season.

PLENTY of experts consider Prior the best pitcher in the majors, if I had a handy link, I'd give it to you, however, I don't. But what I can tell you is that your boyfriend, Pedro, threw only 97.9 pitches per outing with just over 6 1/3 innings per start, while prior threw 113.4 while averaging just over 7 innings. (source: http://www.espn.com)

Oh, and BTW: Pedro is about as clutch as automatic transmission. Last postseason, his ERA was 4.76 in 28.1 innings, while Prior put up a svelte 2.31 in 23.1 innings.

So yeah, ace, give me your phone number and I'll call you when Prior is clearly the best pitcher in the majors.