PDA

View Full Version : Squeaks And Dawgs Make Deal



Soriambi
04-07-03, 04:12 PM
Just seconds ago, a deal was completed that sent 1B Todd Helton and P Tim Hudson to the New York Squeaks for OF Pat Burrell and OF Brian Jordan.

"This is probably one of the better trades that we have pulled. Burrell hit 37 homers (around that) and with the amount of cushion in his real lineup, he will have the capability of hitting 5-10 more home runs. In addition, Jordan will be a terrific pick-up, and he is off to a blistering start. Whereas, the Squeaks will get Helton and Hudson. While we were struggling to decide, we decided that it would be in our best interests to make this trade. Helton is a great hitter, but he does not have that much power (31 homers with the help of Coors Field last year). Hudson is a great pitcher, but with Mulder and Zito in the real A's team. I, as the GM, did have some leeway since the Squeaks were in the cellar, but this by no means does not make it an unfair trade. This is pretty fair." Dawgs GM YanksRockMan said.

"We needed a pitcher here in New York and they needed a couple of sluggers over there in Easton. We decided to give up two guys with 30+ HR potential, both with renewable contracts in exchange for a solid pitcher, which we needed and one of the top first basemen in the game. We felt that everyone wins in this deal and that it fills some holes on our squad. The Dawgs had an excess in starting pitching and they dealt from strength to improve a glaring weakness, that being their OF offense. This team is dedicated to winning and winning now. We realized that we needed pitching and we believe that this move got us just that." New York Squeaks GM Soriambi stated.

Bozidar
04-07-03, 04:54 PM
I'm tired of saving pete from himself.. no objection here.

This boils down to a nearly even trade of burrell for helton with the edge to helton, and Brian Jordan for Tim Hudson.

Edge, squeaks, big time.

SanFrANSKY
04-07-03, 05:16 PM
When I saw Pete's post (on Yahoo) about needing "offensive help," I didn't think that would mean trading Helton!

Actually when you factor in total points earned by the players over last season, this trade is FAR less lopsided than those in the past. Advantage definitely goes to the Squeeky Ones, but by less than 100 points.

In any case, I believe the new ace of the Dawgs' pitching staff is a guy named Maroth. I'll gladly trade a whifleball and a sack of used rosin bags for him. :D

Big_E
04-07-03, 05:19 PM
Agreed, Boz.

TSN values:

Burrell, Pat: 23
Jordan, Brian: 13

Total: 36
****************
Heltom, Todd: 30
Hudson, Tim: 27

Total: 57

While it helps Dawgz offensively, it SEVERELY weakens their pitching staff, with only Tim Hudson left as a SP who had a winning record last season. With losses counting as a -5 penalty this year, it makes me wonder if the Dawgz have given up on making the playoffs one week into the season.

YanksRockMan
04-07-03, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
I'm tired of saving pete from himself.. no objection here.

This boils down to a nearly even trade of burrell for helton with the edge to helton, and Brian Jordan for Tim Hudson.

Edge, squeaks, big time.
This is a fair trade. I needed offense, I got it with burrell and jordan. I could afford to give up hudson because my pitching is deep....I have a fairly intimidating team with Burrell being a key addition, this team should go far in the playoffs....

Soriambi
04-07-03, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Big_E
Agreed, Boz.

TSN values:

Burrell, Pat: 23
Jordan, Brian: 13

Total: 36
****************
Heltom, Todd: 30
Hudson, Tim: 27

Total: 57

While it helps Dawgz offensively, it SEVERELY weakens their pitching staff, with only Tim Hudson left as a SP who had a winning record last season. With losses counting as a -5 penalty this year, it makes me wonder if the Dawgz have given up on making the playoffs one week into the season.

We don't play in a $ value league. The points work out to under 100. Also, the Dawgz are 1-0 and have the 6th most points in the league, why would they be giving up on the playoffs? :confused:

Saxmania
04-07-03, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi


We don't play in a $ value league. The points work out to under 100.

But $ value reflects scarcity of position - points production doesn't.

Remember, everyone - if you intend to formally object to the trade, please say so clearly, or else I'm assuming you're not going to obstruct it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

YanksRockMan
04-07-03, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Big_E
While it helps Dawgz offensively, it SEVERELY weakens their pitching staff, with only Tim Hudson left as a SP who had a winning record last season. With losses counting as a -5 penalty this year, it makes me wonder if the Dawgz have given up on making the playoffs one week into the season.
You forget, I have three more really good pitchers in Kevin Millwood, Brian Lawrence, and Josh Fogg. I also have Shawn Chacon, Esteban Loaiza, and Jason Johnson to work my team around. It's not a disaster. Millwood was valued more than hudson coming into the season...

Big_E
04-07-03, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan
You forget, I have three more really good pitchers in Kevin Millwood, Brian Lawrence, and Josh Fogg. I also have Shawn Chacon, Esteban Loaiza, and Jason Johnson to work my team around. It's not a disaster. Millwood was valued more than hudson coming into the season...

2002 Stats:

Millwood: 18-3, 3.24, 186K
Lawrence: 12-12, 3.69 149K
Fogg: 12-12, 4.35 113K
Chacon: 5-11, 5.73 67K
Loaiza:9-10, 5.71 87K
Johnson: 5-15, 4.59 97K

While losing Tim Hudson: 15-9, 2.98, 152K

I stand by my assessment, that it SEVERELY weakens your PS, for whatever increase in power you get. With losses counting for -5, pitching is much more important than offense in this league.

(And Millwood was $30, to Hudson's $27 coming into the season...a negligible difference)

Big_E
04-07-03, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania


But $ value reflects scarcity of position - points production doesn't.

Remember, everyone - if you intend to formally object to the trade, please say so clearly, or else I'm assuming you're not going to obstruct it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

I don't know if objecting is necessary...it's not Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz for Caesar Itzuris...

Saxmania
04-07-03, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Big_E
I don't know if objecting is necessary...it's not Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz for Caesar Itzuris...

I'm not saying it is - I'm not allowed to express an opinion at this stage. But there seem to be people who are criticising this trade without making it clear whether they're formally objecting, and I need to be sure either way.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Bozidar
04-07-03, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by SanFrANSKY
Actually when you factor in total points earned by the players over last season, this trade is FAR less lopsided than those in the past. Advantage definitely goes to the Squeeky Ones, but by less than 100 points.Factor it in with 2001 stats. Helton had a "down" year last year.

Saxmania
04-07-03, 06:03 PM
Actually, I'd use three-year averages where possible. Just a thought.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Bozidar
04-07-03, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
Remember, everyone - if you intend to formally object to the trade, please say so clearly, or else I'm assuming you're not going to obstruct it.I'm clearly saying that i do not object. I'm hoping that if Pete trades away enough of his quality, as he's been trying to all year, we'll stop having these lopsided trades come through.

Btw, pete, what do you need offense for? what makes you think your pitching is so deep?

You've got Mayne at C, but not everyone can have a great catcher, most times you have to scratch by in an 18 team league.

You've got Helton at 1B, who's got a schill's chance to be the most productive first baseman in his league, if not the game this year.

You've got Adam Kennedy who's on a good offensive team. Granted he's not great, but second basemen aren't much deeper than Catchers, if they're even THAT deep.

You've got Eric Hinskey at 3B, nuff said. He's a very quality hitter, and in the cream of the MLB crop at 3B.

Omar Visquel.. not a great SS, but it's another shallow position. I'm looking for a SS myself, and i can't find a good one. Visquel will do.

Darin Erstad is a quality OF who'll get you good points.

Bobby Abreau is a great OF and will get you a ton of points. Of course, you shouldn't have gotten him in the first place.. what happend to you being so deep in the OF and being able to give up Pujols?

Matt Lawton is quality. He's fallen on hard times, but I think you'll get good numbers out of him this year, including SB. Of course, Pujols would have been better..

I dunno who Sean Casey is.. but finding a Util slot if he isn't very good shouldn't be too hard. Looking at his stats, he's not all that great.

It looks to me like you'll be falling off Helton to Sean Casey (and glancing at his stats, it's like falling into the grand canyon). You'll be going from Sean Casey to Brian Jordan, which is a jump. Then you'll go from Matt Lawton to Pat Burrell. Then you'll go from Tim Hudson to.. ?Mike Maroth?

SanFrANSKY
04-07-03, 06:14 PM
Boz, you may be correct about Helton.

Sax, 3-year averages are probably the best way to go, but I can't plug it in for every single player, and I'm certainly not going to worry about it regarding this latest weirdness. In any case, I am NOT going to object to this trade.

I WILL say that anyone who thinks their pitching staff is OK -- with Colorado Rockies and guys named Loiaza -- deserves a job at the Iraqi Ministry of Information. ;)

Bozidar
04-07-03, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by SanFrANSKY
I WILL say that anyone who thinks their pitching staff is OK -- with Colorado Rockies and guys named Loiaza -- deserves a job at the Iraqi Ministry of Information. ;) LMAO!!

Soriambi
04-07-03, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by SanFrANSKY


I WILL say that anyone who thinks their pitching staff is OK -- with Colorado Rockies and guys named Loiaza -- deserves a job at the Iraqi Ministry of Information. ;)

:lol: However, I think you're severely underestimating Brian Lawrence and Josh Fogg. We both think that it will improve our and each other's teams.

SanFrANSKY
04-07-03, 06:48 PM
Soriambi, glad you took my remarks in the spirit in which they were offered. I agree it's possible that Fogg and Lawrence could turn the corner this season.

Bozidar
04-07-03, 08:16 PM
Pete: When you decide that you're in the mood for pitching rather than hitting, i've got Casey Fossum and Kennedy waiting for you. Pick a 1st through 5th round draft pick of yours, and we'll talk.

YanksRockMan
04-07-03, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Pete: When you decide that you're in the mood for pitching rather than hitting, i've got Casey Fossum and Kennedy waiting for you. Pick a 1st through 5th round draft pick of yours, and we'll talk.
:rolleyes:

terry14420
04-08-03, 12:00 AM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ansky39
04-08-03, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Bozidar


Edge, squeaks, big time.

http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/sarge/Twitch_anim.gif

Bozidar
04-08-03, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Ansky39
http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/sarge/Twitch_anim.gif lmao.. what's that supposed to mean? :)

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 10:43 AM
Alright, here's my final words on this trade:

If this trade works out, great, but if it doesn't, its my fault that it happen. I truly did think that Burrell and Jordan would help my team out more than hudson would.

And oh yeah, this is my team. I understand the risks, but I don't really appreciate seeing people ramble about the trade. Its fair in many ways. Closed discussion...

Bozidar
04-08-03, 10:49 AM
Pete : you also thought that Luis Gonzalez and Mark Mulder were worth Bobby Abreu.. which got you into this "offense" problem in the first place.

Bozidar
04-08-03, 10:50 AM
Whatever you say pete.. but we can discuss it all we like. I'm sorry it hurts your feelings, but i'm more sorry that your moves are unbalancing the league.

Big_E
04-08-03, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Pete: When you decide that you're in the mood for pitching rather than hitting, i've got Casey Fossum and Kennedy waiting for you. Pick a 1st through 5th round draft pick of yours, and we'll talk.

Too late Boz. His first 5 picks:

1) Pujols, Luis -- TRADED
2) Helton, Todd -- Trade Pending
3) Hudson, Tim -- Trade Pending
4) Gonzalez, Luis -- TRADED
5) Buehrle, Mark -- TRADED

In fact, only

6) Hinske, Eric
7) Erstad, Darin
9) Kennedy, Adam
10) Lawrence, Brian
11) Vizquel, Omar
19) Johnson, Jason

Are still on his team from the draft.

Ansky39
04-08-03, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Bozidar
lmao.. what's that supposed to mean? :)

http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/sad/702.gifnot really sure... lemme see if i can find the right word...


Entry Word: stoic
Function: adjective
Text: Synonyms IMPASSIVE 1, apathetic, dry, matter-of-fact, phlegmatic, stolid
Related Word aloof, detached, indifferent, unconcerned; self-controlled, Spartan; indomitable, unassailable; long-suffering, patient, resigned



Entry Word: impassive
Function: adjective
Text: 1 unresponsive to what might normally excite interest or emotion <impassive endurance of pain>
Synonyms apathetic, dry, matter-of-fact, phlegmatic, stoic, stolid
Related Word calm, cold, cool; collected, composed, dispassionate, emotionless, imperturbable, inexcitable, unexcitable, unflappable; inexpressive, reserved, reticent, taciturn, unemotional, unexpressive; bovine, passionless, placid, spiritless, unconcerned, wooden; callous, hardened, indurated, insensible; cold-blooded, coldhearted, heartless


my doc upped my prescription of scotch and smokes... http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch28.gif thinks i just need a lil time away from the game... http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/sarge/Twitch_anim.gif

may take him up on it...http://www.tcwozere.co.uk/~cracks/contrib/edoom/sad2.gif another of these trades and they may have to downgrade my condition to delirious... http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/geno/3st.gif

Hitman23
04-08-03, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Ansky39
my doc upped my prescription of scotch and smokes... http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/smoking/rauch28.gif thinks i just need a lil time away from the game... http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/sarge/Twitch_anim.gif

may take him up on it...http://www.tcwozere.co.uk/~cracks/contrib/edoom/sad2.gif another of these trades and they may have to downgrade my condition to delirious... http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/geno/3st.gif

Ansky I think your doc needs to prescribe you some happy pills.

Ansky39
04-08-03, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Hitman23


Ansky I think your doc needs to prescribe you some happy pills.

i'm happy, can't ya tell... http://216.40.249.192/s/contrib/sarge/Twitch_anim.gif oh joy...

Bozidar
04-08-03, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Big_E
Too late Boz. His first 5 picks:

1) Pujols, Luis -- TRADED
2) Helton, Todd -- Trade Pending
3) Hudson, Tim -- Trade Pending
4) Gonzalez, Luis -- TRADED
5) Buehrle, Mark -- TRADED Well .................. i guess i'll have to try the Bagof................ for Abreu trade after all. And i was really gonna try to hang onto that bag of ................, too..

Bozidar
04-08-03, 12:24 PM
hang in there, kurt.. we'll get it right next year..

Big_E
04-08-03, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Well .................. i guess i'll have to try the Bagof................ for Abreu trade after all. And i was really gonna try to hang onto that bag of ................, too..

HEY!!! I thought you were going to trade ME the bag of ................. :(

Bozidar
04-08-03, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
Remember, everyone - if you intend to formally object to the trade, please say so clearly, or else I'm assuming you're not going to obstruct it.I've changed my mind. I'm going to clearly formally object to the trade. I'm not givin up on this league just because things ain't all coming up roses. Gotta fight the good fight.

Bozidar
04-08-03, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Big_E
HEY!!! I thought you were going to trade ME the bag of ................. :( sorry bro.. i'll give you a good deal on a nice cup of piss though..

Lets say.. your number 6 draft pick..

Big_E
04-08-03, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
sorry bro.. i'll give you a good deal on a nice cup of piss though..

Lets say.. your number 6 draft pick..

DAMN!!!! I already traded my #6 pick as part of the deal that got me Smoltz and Pedro! Damn! I really wanted that cup of piss! I KNEW I should have held out for more! :(

Big_E
04-08-03, 01:03 PM
Boz,

I see where Corie Koskie has a sore back. I'll trade ya Placido Polanco for Lowe and Wakefield. Deal? :evil:

Bozidar
04-08-03, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Big_E
Boz,

I see where Corie Koskie has a sore back. I'll trade ya Placido Polanco for Lowe and Wakefield. Deal? :evil: I don't think that's very fair. Let me throw in Scheffield and Green to even it up a bit..

terry14420
04-08-03, 01:21 PM
Am I detecting sarcasm?

Ansky39
04-08-03, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Hitman23


Ansky I think your doc needs to prescribe you some happy pills.

took your advice told my doc and he swapped my regular smokes fer some happy ones... http://e4u.consoleradar.com/crazy/1412.gif

feelin better already, but damn i could use some freakin cheetos or a suzy q or somethin... :D

Bozidar
04-08-03, 01:23 PM
A little bit... maybe..

Ansky39
04-08-03, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
I've changed my mind. I'm going to clearly formally object to the trade. I'm not givin up on this league just because things ain't all coming up roses. Gotta fight the good fight.

me too, and i stand the most to gain by the dawgs guttin their squad since we play in the same div, but we gotta keep this league competitive, this being a keeper league now every move will have long term implication...

for the record, i hereby formally, officially, absolutely, unquestionably, indubitably even, object to the squeaks and dawgs deal... http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/angry/plthumbsdown.gif

Soriambi
04-08-03, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Ansky39


me too, and i stand the most to gain by the dawgs guttin their squad since we play in the same div, but we gotta keep this league competitive, this being a keeper league now every move will have long term implication...

for the record, i hereby formally, officially, absolutely, unquestionably, indubitably even, object to the squeaks and dawgs deal... http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/angry/plthumbsdown.gif

Yes, you're correct, it has long term implications. He's getting 2 players who's contracts can be renewed and I'm getting 2 who's contracts can't be renewed. Helton was a second round pick and I'm surely not going to take Hudson first round next year. And yes, we need to keep it competitive. With this trade my juggernaut 16th place team will just zoom to the top...

Big_E
04-08-03, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi
Yes, you're correct, it has long term implications. He's getting 2 players who's contracts can be renewed and I'm getting 2 who's contracts can't be renewed. Helton was a second round pick and I'm surely not going to take Hudson first round next year. And yes, we need to keep it competitive. With this trade my juggernaut 16th place team will just zoom to the top...

Remember, just because Yahoo lists us in order of points earned, THIS IS A HEAD TO HEAD LEAGUE. You are only 1 game out of first place right now.

No need to throw in the towel after one game in a 22-game season. In my Fantasy Football League this year, the team in last place after 5 weeks ended up finishing 7th and upsetting the #2 and #3 teams in the playoffs before losing in the championship game.

Saxmania
04-08-03, 02:37 PM
The trigger level of complaints has now been reached. I will analyse this trade over the next few hours and veto or accept it by the end of the day.

If the participating owners would like to withdraw the trade for re-negotiation in order to avoid controversy, I would encourage them to do so, but they have every right to stick by their guns, and refusal to do so will not affect the final decision.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Bozidar
04-08-03, 02:41 PM
Sax -- I would consider Soriambi's final point. It is interesting to consider that Helton can't be kept next year, and Hudson probably isn't a first rounder.

Likewise i don't think Burrell is a 2nd round draft pick, but Brian Jordan isn't too bad for the 12th round.

Just thought it was a salient point, but i still object..

Saxmania
04-08-03, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Sax -- I would consider Soriambi's final point.

Thanks - I intend to. In fact, this might be a good piece of information to include in all future trade threads - what round were the players drafted in?

Plus, we should look at current form as well as last year's results. A bit early, but Jordan is hitting the long ball, I believe.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Bozidar
04-08-03, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
Thanks - I intend to. In fact, this might be a good piece of information to include in all future trade threads - what round were the players drafted in?Excellent Idea..

Originally posted by Saxmania
Plus, we should look at current form as well as last year's results.Agreed, but..

Originally posted by Saxmania
A bit early, That's an extreme understatement..

Originally posted by Saxmania
Jordan is hitting the long ball, I believe. So is Rey-Rey on the Rays.. with like 11 RBIs or something silly.

Saxmania
04-08-03, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar

That's an extreme understatement..
So is Rey-Rey on the Rays.. with like 11 RBIs or something silly.

But some people are going to make managerial decisions based on that, and I'm not prepared to say that they're wrong to. If an owner thinks he can trade for the hot hand, ride him for a month, then dump him on another owner, he's entitled to try.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Ansky39
04-08-03, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi


Yes, you're correct, it has long term implications. He's getting 2 players who's contracts can be renewed and I'm getting 2 who's contracts can't be renewed. Helton was a second round pick and I'm surely not going to take Hudson first round next year. And yes, we need to keep it competitive. With this trade my juggernaut 16th place team will just zoom to the top...

kev, i'll just object and leave it at that, but the very fact you allowed your arm to be twisted ;) to consumate this deal belies the sincerity of your protestations that this deal is balanced... :smokin:

Ansky39
04-08-03, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania


Plus, we should look at current form as well as last year's results. A bit early, but Jordan is hitting the long ball, I believe.



one weeks at bats does not = "current form" imho... :smokin:

Bozidar
04-08-03, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
But some people are going to make managerial decisions based on that, and I'm not prepared to say that they're wrong to. If an owner thinks he can trade for the hot hand, ride him for a month, then dump him on another owner, he's entitled to try. The problem is that the hot hand, after 6 games, is already being dumped on an owner for the value of Tim Hudson + (Todd Helton - Pat Burrell (another philly, don't think i didn't notice))

terry14420
04-08-03, 03:27 PM
I think it's obvious-the Philly thing I mean. Alot of guys try to deal for their favorites. It happens in other leagues I'm in too, usually with Yankees. What can you do though?

Ansky39
04-08-03, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania


But some people are going to make managerial decisions based on that, and I'm not prepared to say that they're wrong to. If an owner thinks he can trade for the hot hand, ride him for a month, then dump him on another owner, he's entitled to try.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

but considerring one weeks hot bat has little relation to a player's overall value... if jordan's one week worth of ab's is the basis for suggesting his value is = to a hudson or helton then player rankings and thus values cleary have no relevance in this league...

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania
The trigger level of complaints has now been reached. I will analyse this trade over the next few hours and veto or accept it by the end of the day.

If the participating owners would like to withdraw the trade for re-negotiation in order to avoid controversy, I would encourage them to do so, but they have every right to stick by their guns, and refusal to do so will not affect the final decision.

OK, you can withdraw the trade so we can go for a more FAIR trade!

terry14420
04-08-03, 03:32 PM
Jordan is not a fraction of worth compared to either Hudson or Helton. He obviously wanted Burrell and if he hits 50 this year he looks smart.

Saxmania
04-08-03, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

OK, you can withdraw the trade so we can go for a more FAIR trade!

Sorry, Pete, I don't understand this post. I can't withdraw a trade, only veto it. If both of you want to cancel the trade, please BOTH of you state so here unambiguously, and I will veto it.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Saxmania


Sorry, Pete, I don't understand this post. I can't withdraw a trade, only veto it. If both of you want to cancel the trade, please BOTH of you state so here unambiguously, and I will veto it.

its gotta wait til at least 9...since kevin is at the game...

Bozidar
04-08-03, 03:51 PM
i Believe an owner can cancel a trade..

Hitman23
04-08-03, 03:54 PM
what a ruckuss you caused Brian.

Bozidar
04-08-03, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Hitman23
what a ruckuss you caused Brian. It's better than spending all day explaining to you why MetallicA sucks ass :)

Hitman23
04-08-03, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
It's better than spending all day explaining to you why MetallicA sucks ass :)

you sure like pissing in the wind, don't ya! :D

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
i Believe an owner can cancel a trade..
no...only for a proposed trade, not a pending trade...

I've looked over this trade, and like many people have said, I think it is pretty unbalanced. Although the difference in points is less than 100, there are a few factors to look at. Being a pitcher, Hudson is a fairly valuable part of a team. Trading him for Burrell will ensure as a fair trade. If adding Helton and Jordan to the mix, it makes the trade look lopsided. Helton is at least five times or more better than Jordan and Helton is also a perennial all-star. Jordan hasn't really proved anything but that he can be a streaky batter. I don't know if there is a possibility for me to trade without Hudson, but it will be worth the try. Maybe a Burrell-Helton trade would work, but that would still leave me with Sean Casey as my first baseman. If Casey does repeat his 2000/2001 performance, it would be an OK sacrifice. There has to be some way of trading for Burrell without giving up too much of my team. I have been thinking of maybe giving up Josh Fogg, Matt Lawton, and Jason Johnson for Burrell. One thing would put a drag to it is that I would have to pick up several pitchers. However, it would help my team. I feel that a Fogg-Lawton-Johnson for Burrell trade would be more fair for the two teams and the league.

What do you say kevin. I know that you don't really think highly for Fogg, but this trade would help your Pitching. Fogg is noticeably better than Ponson, Contreras, and Astacio, and he could be better than Glavine depending on if age will catch up on Glavine. Matt Lawton will be a fairly good player, and he could be a viable candidate other than Jordan to fill your other outfield spot. Johnson should bounce back into a strong year. The Orioles should be much better this year and it would constitute into more wins. Think about it, it will be worth it.

Big_E, please evaluate the Fogg-Lawton-Johnson, since I don't have access to the stat tracker or any other device like that.

Thanks for your cooperation,

pete

Hitman23
04-08-03, 04:04 PM
Pete if you're still willing to deal Hudson, with the exception of Nomahhhh and I-Rod we can talk. :)

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Hitman23
Pete if you're still willing to deal Hudson, with the exception of Nomahhhh and I-Rod we can talk. :)
Let me see what I can come up with. :)

Colon would look good in an Easton #40 uni :)

Bozidar
04-08-03, 04:21 PM
Pete, why do you have such a hardon to get Burrell?

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Pete, why do you have such a hardon to get Burrell?
his potential to hit 40-50 homers

Still, I think Kevin has been overvaluing him.

Hitman23
04-08-03, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

Let me see what I can come up with. :)

Colon would look good in an Easton #40 uni :)

Colon is tradable, but for a price. We'll see what you come up with. your right fielder would look good in Empire pinstripes. :D

Bozidar
04-08-03, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan
his potential to hit 40-50 homers

Still, I think Kevin has been overvaluing him. Lots of players have a potential for 40-50 homers..

Just a tip: when trading for what you think will be a 40-50 homer player, try to make sure he's done it before. Don't count on Soriano hitting 55 homers because he hit 39 and looked good doing it. It's about more than being a fan.. it's about logical decisions.
Burrell had a career year in 2002, with a .920 OPS. There aren't a lot of hitters that can do that, and there are even fewer that can maintain that level. I realize he shows a lot of promise.. just, for your team's sake, and for my sanity, try to be a little more conservative.

Another little tip.. when you go into buy a car one day, don't tell the dealer: "Man, i love that car, i have to have it now!!" Because then he's just going to rake you over the coals. I think you know what i'm talking about..


Originally posted by YanksRockMan
There has to be some way of trading for Burrell without giving up too much of my team

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Hitman23


Colon is tradable, but for a price. We'll see what you come up with. your right fielder would look good in Empire pinstripes. :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:

suurrrrrreeeeeeeee

Saxmania
04-08-03, 04:40 PM
I will wait until tomorrow to process this trade, then, so that both parties have a chance to veto if they wish. If not, I will post a decision before the trade goes through automatically.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Lots of players have a potential for 40-50 homers..

Just a tip: when trading for what you think will be a 40-50 homer player, try to make sure he's done it before. Don't count on Soriano hitting 55 homers because he hit 39 and looked good doing it. It's about more than being a fan.. it's about logical decisions.
Burrell had a career year in 2002, with a .920 OPS. There aren't a lot of hitters that can do that, and there are even fewer that can maintain that level. I realize he shows a lot of promise.. just, for your team's sake, and for my sanity, try to be a little more conservative.
That's one of the reasons why I have redirected my thinking. OK, Burrell hit 37 homers, but he might hit 10 more, or even 10 less. Now, 27 homers is not bad, but he is not worth both hudson and helton. Hell, I believe that Hudson is fairly better than Burrell, because of his lowering ERA each year. Last year Hudson had a 2.98 ERA, his 2003 ERA could lower a couple tenths of a percentage points if it goes his way. The thing that drives Burrell's value way down is the amount of strikeouts he gets. Last year he had 150 Ks. While that number has been decreasing, is he that valuable to give up two of the game's elite? Not in this earth. A combination of Hudson and Helton will probably get me one of the top players in the game, and Burrell as of now is not one of them. He needs to prove that he can reach that peak of potential. As I have said before, I have a feeling that, just because I, not reliable sources, have said that Burrell could peak at 50 homers, Kevin probably immediately thinks that Burrell is in the cream de la creme. He might, or he might not. As Big_E stated, Burrell's value moneywise was around $23. That is four dollars less and who knows what less than Helton could be this year, or was last year. I guess that I could probably get another hitter from someone, but with a more reliable production. Boz, I think you and Kurt are correct on this trade, WAY too unbalanced. It took me a while, but I have figured that this would probably bring Kevin's team up to the top, and bring my team to the cellar. I may be overreacting, but that is how much I feel the trade is unbalanced.


Originally posted by Bozidar
Another little tip.. when you go into buy a car one day, don't tell the dealer: "Man, i love that car, i have to have it now!!" Because then he's just going to rake you over the coals. I think you know what i'm talking about..
I don't really want to offend, but I have a feeling that Kevin DID try to rake me over the coals. All I wanted was one player in Burrell, but he declined the more fairer trades. OK, in return he would have given me Jordan. Would Jordan be a good fit? I don't know. All he would be would be a utility man. It is probably in my best interests to trade with another person for a more fairer deal, or if I can convince Kevin to lay off a little in the deal (well, a lot).

-pete

Big_E
04-08-03, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan
Big_E, please evaluate the Fogg-Lawton-Johnson, since I don't have access to the stat tracker or any other device like that.

Thanks for your cooperation,

pete

Pete,

Stat tracker won't do what you want. I've plugged everything into an Excel spreadsheet that I use to evaluate trades. Using 2002 numbers:

Josh Fogg: 272
Jason Johnson: 138
Matt Lawton: 347.5

Total: 757.5 points

Pat Burrell: 608 points


TSN Values:
Fogg ($4), Johnson ($14), Lawton ($11) total of $29
Burrell is worth $23.

In TSN values, it's a 26% premium.
In points, it's a 24.5% premium.

By points, Fogg & Lawton for Burrell is an even trade.
Using TSN value, Johnson & Lawton for Burrell is an even trade.

Bozidar
04-08-03, 08:03 PM
Even with the premium though, you're giving up lesser players for a good player.. you should pay a premium.

I just don't think he'll do it :)

SanFrANSKY
04-08-03, 08:09 PM
Pete, if the trade does not go through, we may be able to work out a deal where you can keep Helton and get still more power. Make me an offer that includes Hudson.

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by SanFrANSKY
Pete, if the trade does not go through, we may be able to work out a deal where you can keep Helton and get still more power. Make me an offer that includes Hudson.
okay :cool:

Soriambi
04-08-03, 08:49 PM
I still feel it is a fair deal. I'll let Sax make his decision which by the thoughts here doesn't seem like it will be in my favor...I'm getting the pitcher I need and Pete is getting the offensive help that he needs.. I feel it's fair..

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi
I still feel it is a fair deal. I'll let Sax make his decision which by the thoughts here doesn't seem like it will be in my favor...
It IS a fair deal, for you. I firmly object to this specific trade, and I will hold to it. As I said, like Boz's analogy, you are trying to reek me over the coals with what you want here.

Lets see who has officially/looked to object:

me, Boz, Ansky, Big_E, terry?, Hitman, sanFrANSKY, and there may be others who have yet to comment....lets hope this gets vetoed, since my compadre won't be fair and do what's good for the community....:uhh:

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi
I'm getting the pitcher I need and Pete is getting the offensive help that he needs.. I feel it's fair..
That does not necessarily make it fair. Stats is the key. Burrell's 2002 season COULD have been a fluke, nobody knows. Hudson is better than Burrell, and he's a pitcher. This just doesn't calculate..

Soriambi
04-08-03, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

It IS a fair deal, for you. I firmly object to this specific trade, and I will hold to it. As I said, like Boz's analogy, you are trying to reek me over the coals with what you want here.

Lets see who has officially/looked to object:

me, Boz, Ansky, Big_E, terry?, Hitman, sanFrANSKY, and there may be others who have yet to comment....lets hope this gets vetoed, since my compadre won't be fair and do what's good for the community....:uhh:

I'm being perfectly fair and attempting to uphold the integrity of this league. I still feel it's fair for both sides and if you don't, maybe you should think twice before accepting it. I feel it is perfectly fair and is not nearly as unbalanced as you are all saying and I will hold to that.

Soriambi
04-08-03, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

That does not necessarily make it fair. Stats is the key. Burrell's 2002 season COULD have been a fluke, nobody knows. Hudson is better than Burrell, and he's a pitcher. This just doesn't calculate..

Hudson's last few years COULD have been flukes, nobody knows. Of COURSE no one knows. Jordan COULD hit 50 homers this year and the rest of his career could be a fluke, nobody knows. Also, I don't know how you can say Hudson is "better" than Burrell. If I need an out late in a game, I'd want Hudson pitching over Burrell and if I needed a late hit I'd rather have Burrell up than Hudson. One's a pitcher, one's a hitter, they're both stars. Neither one is "better" than the other.

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi


Hudson's last few years COULD have been flukes, nobody knows. Of COURSE no one knows. Jordan COULD hit 50 homers this year and the rest of his career could be a fluke, nobody knows. Also, I don't know how you can say Hudson is "better" than Burrell. If I need an out late in a game, I'd want Hudson pitching over Burrell and if I needed a late hit I'd rather have Burrell up than Hudson. One's a pitcher, one's a hitter, they're both stars. Neither one is "better" than the other.
and....where's the comparison for helton?

oh wait, there's no real one.

Soriambi
04-08-03, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

and....where's the comparison for helton?

oh wait, there's no real one.

Ok, Helton COULD hit 10 homers this year. No one knows. :rolleyes:

Bozidar
04-08-03, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Soriambi
I still feel it's fair for both sides and if you don't, maybe you should think twice before accepting it. *ding**ding**ding**ding**ding*
we have a winner here :)

Coney36
04-08-03, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

It IS a fair deal, for you. I firmly object to this specific trade, and I will hold to it. As I said, like Boz's analogy, you are trying to reek me over the coals with what you want here.

Lets see who has officially/looked to object:

me, Boz, Ansky, Big_E, terry?, Hitman, sanFrANSKY, and there may be others who have yet to comment....lets hope this gets vetoed, since my compadre won't be fair and do what's good for the community....:uhh:

It's funny, you agreed to the trade, you bashed everyone at the beginning for questioning it, and now you're the biggest advocate for a veto. How quickly the tides have turned...

Yes, I have submitted an objection to this trade, but I just find it hypocritical that an owner who is part of this trade, who agreed to it, would turn on it so quickly, especially with the sudden line of trade offers that have been offered to him.

Soriambi
04-08-03, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
*ding**ding**ding**ding**ding*
we have a winner here :)

:lol: :lol: :)

Bozidar
04-08-03, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Coney36
Yes, I have submitted an objection to this trade, but I just find it hypocritical that an owner who is part of this trade, who agreed to it, would turn on it so quickly, especially with the sudden line of trade offers that have been offered to him. Preach it coney :)

Pete.. you ever think of going into politics? :D :lol:

YanksRockMan
04-08-03, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
Preach it coney :)

Pete.. you ever think of going into politics? :D :lol:
NO WAY! LOL

:lol: :lol: :lol:

patrick.o
04-08-03, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Coney36
It's funny, you agreed to the trade, you bashed everyone at the beginning for questioning it, and now you're the biggest advocate for a veto. How quickly the tides have turned...

Yes, I have submitted an objection to this trade, but I just find it hypocritical that an owner who is part of this trade, who agreed to it, would turn on it so quickly, especially with the sudden line of trade offers that have been offered to him.
Well said. This is beginning to be a joke.

But then, who cares the hell? Pete, what do you want for Hudson? I've got plenty of offense, make me an offer.

Saxmania
04-09-03, 07:32 AM
The trade will be allowed.

I've thought about this a lot, and I have several points to make:

1) Do NOT, please, try to re-negotiate trades before they have been approved or not.

2) No owner involved in a trade can object to the trade themselves. If you don't like the trade, don't agree to it, and do your research BEFORE SAYING YES. Ideally, I don't want the trade argued over by owners after objections are noted, but I realise that it's an impossible ask.

3) The trade is clearly unbalanced; however, I don't think it's unbalanced enough to significantly affect the balance of power in the league. While I certainly wouldn't want to be on Pete's side of the trade, I have to consider the possibility that:

a) Burrell could have a very good year, being in the middle of a truly scary Philly offense, and is still very young, after a great year in 2002.
b) Helton was not as dominant as he usually is last year, and it could be argued that he's going to be similar this year.
c) Hudson started very slow last year (as did the entire As team) so may pick up fewer wins early on. The Athletics seem to historically start slow.
d) Jordan is a decent shot at a keeper if he has a good year - the only one of the four whom that can be said for.

I repeat, I would definitely not want to be on Pete's side of the deal, but I do not believe that the deal suddenly creates a significant drop in his roster's value to the extent of aborting his playoff hopes, and therefore, I don't think it's going to wreck the league.

Pete, you're a nice guy, but I want to say this:

Consider this an object lesson in looking before you leap. You have a perfect right to make what trades you want, but as has been discussed, I think you're doing your research after the fact, and it's hurting your team. You've traded a huge amount of your roster before we even play two games, and you had a pretty good draft to being with. Relax, breathe easy, and wait to see how you do. If your roster leads you to a 4-0 record after a month, why would you want to trade?

To everyone else:

I know this trade is unbalanced. I know that it's not an even swap. But I can't possibly go around vetoing every trade that's not exactly balanced, and I don't think this trade is lopsided to the extent of utterly altering the balance between these two teams. If Pete's convinced that he needs offense (and given the new points system, there may be method to his madness), then there may be logic to paying a premium in terms of pitching.

Final note:

I don't want to dissect this one for the next two weeks. It was a very tough decision to make, and I'll second-guess it enough on my own without any help, thanks very much. Hopefully, Pete's learned not to rush into the breach (and learn to trade with someone else if you think you're getting "raked over the coals"!), everyone can chill out, and play ball.

I still fancy my chances against the Squeaks, personally.

Be seeing you,

Saxmania

Bozidar
04-09-03, 07:57 AM
Thanks Sax, we'll abide.

pete -- next time you're ready to accept a trade, send me, kurt, coney, george, or sax a pm, and just double-check. Patrick too.. whomever :) Just don't listen to the person you're dealing with :D :lol:

Ansky39
04-09-03, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Bozidar
*ding**ding**ding**ding**ding*
we have a winner here :)

double *ding**ding**ding**ding**ding*...

oh well at least hudson and helton are out of my divsion now...

Ansky39
04-09-03, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by Coney36


It's funny, you agreed to the trade, you bashed everyone at the beginning for questioning it, and now you're the biggest advocate for a veto. How quickly the tides have turned...

Yes, I have submitted an objection to this trade, but I just find it hypocritical that an owner who is part of this trade, who agreed to it, would turn on it so quickly, especially with the sudden line of trade offers that have been offered to him.

well stated...

Ansky39
04-09-03, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by patrick.o

This is beginning to be a joke.



a real bad joke... :uhh:

YanksRockMan
04-09-03, 09:17 AM
alright.....here's to a horrible season for hudson :gulp:

and here's to helton sucking this year :gulp:

i hope this trade works out....:uhh:

YanksRockMan
04-09-03, 09:21 AM
and oh yeah....make it seem like a good trade for me and here's to 50 homers for Burrell :gulp:

and same for Jordan :gulp:

eh....my outfield is solid now....my pitching still ain't too bad.....i lost out on getting a good 2Bman from steve...oh well..

Bozidar
04-09-03, 12:36 PM
btw.. Helton reached base 7 times yesturday, and Jordan is out with a nagging injury..

YanksRockMan
04-09-03, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Bozidar
btw.. Helton reached base 7 times yesturday, and Jordan is out with a nagging injury..
ahhhh....crap :uhh:

Hitman23
04-09-03, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

ahhhh....crap :uhh:

dumbass :lol:

Bozidar
04-09-03, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by YanksRockMan

ahhhh....crap :uhh: Buck up, Pujols that you traded away has a nagging hammy problem..