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View Full Version : Aaron Judge: ROY, MVP, Both or Neither?



Battingly
10-01-17, 04:00 PM
I say BOTH and it shouldn't even be a close call.

What say you?

Battingly
10-01-17, 04:05 PM
The real question for me is, will he be a victim of the anti Yankees bias?

Thats the only real question here in my view, otherwise he wins both in a landslide.

geoffman
10-01-17, 04:13 PM
I have a feeling that Altuve wins the MVP. ROY is a lock for Judge though. Just my .02

Yanks12009
10-01-17, 04:17 PM
I have a feeling that Altuve wins the MVP. ROY is a lock for Judge though. Just my .02

Same.

I think voters are gonna think too hard about the slump and the strikeout streak.

JudgementDay1123
10-01-17, 04:28 PM
I think he wins MVP but is 2nd in ROY to Benintendi

In my honest opinion that

Bill Marsh
10-01-17, 04:41 PM
It's a pretty clear choice between Altuve and Judge in the AL. Whichever of them wins, it will be hard to say he's not deserving. The NL is a mess. Here's a list of NL candidates in no particular order who can all be considered vote worthy:

Charlie Blackmon
Joey Votto
Giancarlo
Paul Goldscmidt
Kris Bryant
Justin Turner
Nolan Arenado
Max Scherzer
Clayton Kershaw

Feel free to add your own favorites.

Bub
10-01-17, 04:52 PM
I think he wins MVP but is 2nd in ROY to Benintendi

In my honest opinion that

I don't think Benintendi gets one single first place vote for ROY.

JL25and3
10-01-17, 04:58 PM
The real question for me is, will he be a victim of the anti Yankees bias?

Thats the only real question here in my view, otherwise he wins both in a landslide.

What anti Yankee bias?

aeromac76
10-01-17, 05:22 PM
I don't think Benintendi gets one single first place vote for ROY.

If Pete Abraham has a vote for the ROY, Benitendi gets at least one vote.

Battingly
10-01-17, 05:33 PM
What anti Yankee bias?You gotta be kidding?

If I had a dollar for every baseball writer who has openly expressed their contempt for the Yankees over the years (decades), I would be a millionaire.

If Judge played for any other team in baseball and his MONSTER (multiple record breaking) rookie season was a big part of the reason his team made the post season, he would win ROY and MVP, both, by massive landslides. Its only gonna be close cause he's a Yankee.

BronxYanks45
10-01-17, 05:46 PM
I saw he hands down wins ROY and comes in 3nd in MVP....Altuve gets MVP Sale will probably get 2nd and Judge gets 3rd for MVP.

If Judge didn't slump he would have won both

JudgementDay1123
10-01-17, 06:03 PM
I saw he hands down wins ROY and comes in 3nd in MVP....Altuve gets MVP Sale will probably get 2nd and Judge gets 3rd for MVP.

If Judge didn't slump he would have won both

No way Sale is voted ahead of Judge for MVP. No way

Judge should win both tbh

Yankees don't sniff the playoffs without Judge. Astros still win their division pretty easily I think without Altuve

Not to mention Judge had a historic rookie season, broke statcast records, won the derby, excited fans with nearly 500 feet blasts, rejuvinated the Yankees

Judge's wRC+ is also 13 points higher than Altuve's. Their defense is pretty comparable. Altuve has better baserunning but Judge has the higher WAR

You can't not give it to the guy with the highest WAR and wRC+ in the league, who also broke records, excited fans, gave a team hope for contention, and who was 90%+ likely to have been battling an injury during his "slump" (in which he still played league average baseball according to fangraphs)

Btw, looking at stats Trout is still the best player in baseball by far and it's not that close. Unreal how consistently amazing this dude is. Shame the Angels are mediocre at best

Yanks12009
10-01-17, 06:03 PM
I think he wins MVP but is 2nd in ROY to Benintendi

In my honest opinion that

Wait what?

JudgementDay1123
10-01-17, 06:51 PM
Wait what?

Lol joking

SatchelPaigeYankee
10-01-17, 07:06 PM
You gotta be kidding?

If I had a dollar for every baseball writer who has openly expressed their contempt for the Yankees over the years (decades), I would be a millionaire.

In the present day, I don't think there's any substantial evidence of any kind of widespread anti-Yankee bias. I challenge you to produce it.

edit: nvm, dont want to derail this thread

51
10-01-17, 07:11 PM
Sweeps ROY (haven't checked, but would be surprised if any books were even taking action on it).

Could make a convincing case for Altuve or Judge. I think Altuve wins because voters will be reticent to give the award to a rookie.

PinstripeDynasty
10-01-17, 07:14 PM
The problem is his massive September was statistically awesome but not a lot of dramatics. Were there any GW HRs? And the playoff race wasn't very exciting, the Yankees held few-game lead for most of the month. I'm not saying any of that is his fault, and obviously his hitting was the reason they held onto their playoff spot. But if they had come from behind to overtake a team to win the Wildcard, or won the division, or if he had a few memorable walk-off HRs it would have looked more impressive. As far as for MVP.

NerfBall55
10-01-17, 07:24 PM
You gotta be kidding?

If I had a dollar for every baseball writer who has openly expressed their contempt for the Yankees over the years (decades), I would be a millionaire.



This is just untrue.

Taking a sample of say, the last century, and the corresponding days within, that would translate into roughly 27-28 writers PER DAY having to openly express contempt to make you that rich.

JL25and3
10-01-17, 07:44 PM
You gotta be kidding?

If I had a dollar for every baseball writer who has openly expressed their contempt for the Yankees over the years (decades), I would be a millionaire.

If Judge played for any other team in baseball and his MONSTER (multiple record breaking) rookie season was a big part of the reason his team made the post season, he would win ROY and MVP, both, by massive landslides. Its only gonna be close cause he's a Yankee.

Who has openly expressed their contempt for Yankee players, particularly among current voters?

Judge is a shoo-in for ROY, but itís not at all obvious that he would have to be MVP over Altuve. Anyone could vote for Altuve legitimately, not out of prejudice.

-tz
10-01-17, 07:49 PM
Would love to see him get both, but I'm expecting Altuve to get the MVP. It would be fun if there's an awards ceremony and they both go and stand side by side. :)

Anyway, the award I'd most like to see Judge get is MVP ... of the World Series. ;)

Battingly
10-01-17, 07:53 PM
Could make a convincing case for Altuve or Judge. I think Altuve wins because voters will be reticent to give the award to a YANKEES rookie.Fixed it

awy
10-01-17, 07:56 PM
there are structural reasons for 'anti-yankee' bias. stuff like preferring more sympathetic narratives and whatnot

JL25and3
10-01-17, 07:57 PM
No way Sale is voted ahead of Judge for MVP. No way

Judge should win both tbh

Yankees don't sniff the playoffs without Judge. Astros still win their division pretty easily I think without Altuve

Not to mention Judge had a historic rookie season, broke statcast records, won the derby, excited fans with nearly 500 feet blasts, rejuvinated the Yankees

Judge's wRC+ is also 13 points higher than Altuve's. Their defense is pretty comparable. Altuve has better baserunning but Judge has the higher WAR

You can't not give it to the guy with the highest WAR and wRC+ in the league, who also broke records, excited fans, gave a team hope for contention, and who was 90%+ likely to have been battling an injury during his "slump" (in which he still played league average baseball according to fangraphs)

Btw, looking at stats Trout is still the best player in baseball by far and it's not that close. Unreal how consistently amazing this dude is. Shame the Angels are mediocre at best

Judge's WAR is higher with the Fangraphs formula, lower on baseball-reference.com - not that differences of that magnitude are statistically meaningful, anyway.

JL25and3
10-01-17, 07:59 PM
Fixed it

Obviously, that is what you will believe, despite there being no reason to believe it.

Battingly
10-01-17, 08:00 PM
This is just untrue.

Taking a sample of say, the last century, and the corresponding days within, that would translate into roughly 27-28 writers PER DAY having to openly express contempt to make you that rich.




Who has openly expressed their contempt for Yankee players, particularly among current voters?

Judge is a shoo-in for ROY, but itís not at all obvious that he would have to be MVP over Altuve. Anyone could vote for Altuve legitimately, not out of prejudice.I can make a very strong argument that Don Mattingly is not in the HOF because the baseball writers, including prominent NY writers like Bill Madden, committed a travesty in 1986 and voted for Roger Clemens over Don Mattingly for MVP, which was fairly unusual and still is, that they would give BOTH the Cy Young and MVP to a Pitcher, unless no hitter has a legit MVP season as Mattingly did in 86. Had he won the MVP that year, he would have been a rare back-to-back MVP in 85 and 86 and that would have been a huge plus on his HOF resume.

Battingly
10-01-17, 08:00 PM
Obviously, that is what you will believe, despite there being no reason to believe it.See the last post on page 1

JL25and3
10-01-17, 08:02 PM
I can make a very strong argument that Don Mattingly is not in the HOF because the baseball writers, including prominent NY writers like Bill Madden, committed a travesty in 1986 and voted for Roger Clemens over Don Mattingly for MVP, which was fairly unusual and still is, that they would give BOTH the Cy Young and MVP to a Pitcher, unless no hitter has a legit MVP season as Mattingly did in 86. Had he won the MVP that year, he would have been a rare back-to-back MVP in 85 and 86 and that would have been a huge plus on his HOF resume.
You know that was over 30 years ago, right?

I loved Don Mattingly, but I wouldnít vote for him for the HOF.

Battingly
10-01-17, 08:05 PM
You know that was over 30 years ago, right?

I loved Don Mattingly, but I wouldn’t vote for him for the HOF.I didn't ask you if you would vote for him for MVP. I said that would have been a huge plus on his HOF resume, and it was a travesty that he didn't win it, that they gave it to a pitcher instead. Mattingly had a monster season for the pre steroids era. Clemens should have won the CY, and he did, and Mattingly should have been MVP, but they gave that to Clemens too.

You asked for evidence ... there you have it.

JL25and3
10-01-17, 08:13 PM
I ddin't ask you if you would vote for him for MVP. I said that would have been a huge plus on his HOF resume, and it was a travesty that he didn't win it, that they gave it to a pitcher instead. Mattingly had a monster season for the pre steroids era. Clemens should have won the CY, and he did, and Mattingly should have been MVP, but they gave that to Clemens too.

You asked for evidence ... there you have it.

Thatís evidence that they didnít give it to Mattingly, not that they were biased. And my point was that heís not a HOF player either way.

Battingly
10-01-17, 08:15 PM
BTW the reason I say that would have enhanced his HOF resume significantly ...

How many players in baseball history have won back-to-back MVP's?

I don't know the answer, but I'm betting its not many, and the ones who did, most if not all are probably in the HOF or headed to the HOF. Thats just a guess, I could be wrong?

Battingly
10-01-17, 08:15 PM
That’s evidence that they didn’t give it to Mattingly, not that they were biased.

And my point was that he’s not a HOF player either way.See above

ace
10-01-17, 08:28 PM
For the poll, I voted BOTH because I personally believe he is both. But I'm almost certain they'll give it to Altuve however.

I'll be furious if they give the NL MVP to Stanton and then come up with excuses to not give the AL to Judge.

SatchelPaigeYankee
10-01-17, 08:38 PM
This is just untrue.

Taking a sample of say, the last century, and the corresponding days within, that would translate into roughly 27-28 writers PER DAY having to openly express contempt to make you that rich.

:roflmao:

there are structural reasons for 'anti-yankee' bias. stuff like preferring more sympathetic narratives and whatnot

the positive effect Yankee players gain from simply by being discussed more often than most other players likely outweighs any negative effect that might come from the marketing of underdog narratives and such


I didn't ask you if you would vote for him for MVP. I said that would have been a huge plus on his HOF resume, and it was a travesty that he didn't win it, that they gave it to a pitcher instead. Mattingly had a monster season for the pre steroids era. Clemens should have won the CY, and he did, and Mattingly should have been MVP, but they gave that to Clemens too.

You asked for evidence ... there you have it.

as guy said, that's from 30 years ago. but even then:

in 1986...
Clemens: 8.9 bWAR, 7.1 fWAR
Mattingly: 7.2 bWAR, 7.2 fWAR

Battingly
10-01-17, 08:47 PM
as guy said, that's from 30 years ago. but even then:

in 1986...
Clemens: 8.9 bWAR, 7.1 fWAR
Mattingly: 7.2 bWAR, 7.2 fWARYou're missing the point. It was exceedingly rare in 1986, and probably still till this day, for a SP to win both the CY and MVP. If I recall, there were only a few examples and it was because the SP had an all-time great season, while simultaneously no hitter had a monster season. Like you said, it was 30 years ago so I'm going from memory here, but thats how I remember it, thats why Yankee fans were furious when Clemens won both, and Madden went on WFAN trying to defend his vote for Clemens, what followed was hours and hours of Yankee fans calling him a f--king idiot. Again, at the time it was practically unheard of to give a SP who threw every 5 days the MVP, because the CY was considered the MVP for pitchers, and the MVP was considered an everyday players award, and there was NO DOUBT that Mattingly put up MVP numbers again (in the pre steroids era), so he should have won back-to-back MVP's ... and I would love to know how many players have done that?, and how many of them are NOT in the HOF or headed there?

geoffman
10-01-17, 08:57 PM
I would love to know how many players have done that?, and how many are them are NOT in the HOF or headed there?

Only one that comes to mind is Barry Bpnds and he is not in the HOF and unfortunately probably not headed there. Im sure someone will elaborate on my measly post

Bill Marsh
10-01-17, 08:57 PM
BTW the reason I say that would have enhanced his HOF resume significantly ...

How many players in baseball history have won back-to-back MVP's?

I don't know the answer, but I'm betting its not many, and the ones who did, most if not all are probably in the HOF or headed to the HOF. Thats just a guess, I could be wrong?

Roger Maris says, "Hello." Dale Murphy too.

Hal Newhauser was also denied the votes for the Hall of Fame by the writers. He was put into the Hall years later by the Veterans' Committee.

Battingly
10-01-17, 09:08 PM
Roger Maris says, "Hello." Dale Murphy too.Good Ones, I appreciate the info because I really was curious. That said, IMO both should be in the HOF. I understand the arguments against and I would agree if the HOF was still what it intended to be at the outset, a place to honor the true baseball immortals (Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Hornsby, Ted Williams, Jimmy Foxx et al.), but its not and IMO there are lesser players than Maris and Murphy in the HOF today. Lesser players than Mattingly too for that matter.

Bonds is a separate matter, thats entirely a steroids era issue, you can almost put that in the same category as Joe Jackson.

Bill Marsh
10-01-17, 10:00 PM
Good Ones, I appreciate the info because I really was curious. That said, IMO both should be in the HOF. I understand the arguments against and I would agree if the HOF was still what it intended to be at the outset, a place to honor the true baseball immortals (Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Hornsby, Ted Williams, Jimmy Foxx et al.), but its not and IMO there are lesser players than Maris and Murphy in the HOF today. Lesser players than Mattingly too for that matter.

Bonds is a separate matter, thats entirely a steroids era issue, you can almost put that in the same category as Joe Jackson.

The guy I like to beef about not being in the Hall is Bernie Williams. I could go on and on. So I understand the feeling that bias is working against your favorite player.

There have been so many odd decisions in MVP voting over the years that it's a tough one to focus on as evidence of bias. How do you think Ted Williams felt?

1939 - Williams led the AL in RBI as a rookie. The MVP went to DiMaggio.
1941 - Williams upped his game and batted .406. MVP to DiMaggio.
1942 - Williams dominated the AL by winning the Triple Crown. MVP to NY 2Bman Joe Gordon.
1947 - Williams won his 2nd Triple Crown. MVP went to Joe D again.
1951 - Williams led the AL in 5 categories. MVP went to Yogi Berra.
1954 - Williams led the AL in 4 categories. MVP again went to Berra.
1957 - Williams won his 5th batting title at .388 + led AL in 4 other categories. MVP: Mantle.

Don't ask Ted Williams about an anti-Yankee bias.

JL25and3
10-01-17, 10:06 PM
The guy I like to beef about not being in the Hall is Bernie Williams. I could go on and on. So I understand the feeling that bias is working against your favorite player.

There have been so many odd decisions in MVP voting over the years that it's a tough one to focus on as evidence of bias. How do you think Ted Williams felt?

1939 - Williams led the AL in RBI as a rookie. The MVP went to DiMaggio.
1941 - Williams upped his game and batted .406. The MVP to DiMaggio again.
1942 - Williams dominated the AL by winning the Triple Crown. MVP to NY 2B Joe Gordon.
1947 - Williams won his 2nd Triple Crown. MVP went to his old nemesis Joe D again.
1951 - Williams led the AL in 5 categories. MVP went to Yankees' Berra.
1954 - Williams led the AL in 4 categories. MVP again went to Berra.
1957 - Williams won his 5th batting title at .388 + 4 other categories. MVP: Mantle.

Don't ask Ted Williams about an anti-Yankee bias.

Writers really didnít like Ted Williams. I think a lot of people didnít like Ted Williams much. And the feeling was mutual.

Of course, Dimaggio didnít like people much either, but writers adored him, even if they did use Italian stereotypes to describe him all the time.

Bill Marsh
10-01-17, 10:09 PM
Writers really didnít like Ted Williams. I think a lot of people didnít like Ted Williams much. And the feeling was mutual.

Of course, Dimaggio didnít like people much either, but writers adored him, even if they did use Italian stereotypes to describe him all the time.

So you're saying there was an anti-Ted bias. I find it hard to believe that the writers would be anything but objective and would stoop to carrying a grudge against a player for 20 years - especially one who was a war hero in 2 different wars. ;)

Carsten Charles
10-01-17, 10:17 PM
I'm completely fine with Altuve winning the MVP. Their WARs are basically the same and Altuve plays the tougher position. Also, according to FanGraphs, Judge had the most unclutch season of all time.

Battingly
10-02-17, 04:31 AM
The guy I like to beef about not being in the Hall is Bernie Williams. I could go on and on. So I understand the feeling that bias is working against your favorite player.

There have been so many odd decisions in MVP voting over the years that it's a tough one to focus on as evidence of bias. How do you think Ted Williams felt?

1939 - Williams led the AL in RBI as a rookie. The MVP went to DiMaggio.
1941 - Williams upped his game and batted .406. MVP to DiMaggio.
1942 - Williams dominated the AL by winning the Triple Crown. MVP to NY 2Bman Joe Gordon.
1947 - Williams won his 2nd Triple Crown. MVP went to Joe D again.
1951 - Williams led the AL in 5 categories. MVP went to Yogi Berra.
1954 - Williams led the AL in 4 categories. MVP again went to Berra.
1957 - Williams won his 5th batting title at .388 + led AL in 4 other categories. MVP: Mantle.

Don't ask Ted Williams about an anti-Yankee bias.No player in the history of baseball was more f--ked over when it comes to MVP than the Splinter.

Honestly, I think he should have won MVP in at least five of those seasons.

AT LEAST FIVE

IMO the three best hitters whoever lived are Ruth, Gehrig and Williams.

I don't count the roids era, so I don't think its even debatable.

If you wanna add Cobb and Hornsby into the TOP 5, fine by me.

sweet_lou_14
10-02-17, 05:18 AM
This is just untrue.

Taking a sample of say, the last century, and the corresponding days within, that would translate into roughly 27-28 writers PER DAY having to openly express contempt to make you that rich.

I love that you took that post literally and did the math on it.

Yankee Steve
10-02-17, 06:38 AM
I think the thing that really pissed off Yankee fans was that in 78, Guidry had his all time great season 25-3 with a sub 2.00 ERA, won the CY, but Jim Rice won the MVP. So similar situation to 86, but the writers separated the two awards to the chagrin of Yankee fans. You can also point to what happened to Matsui, not winnin the ROY award because he was REALLY a professional, when only a few years earlier they gave the ROY award to Ichiro.

kan_t
10-02-17, 06:47 AM
Every team fan would think that there is bias against his team players. Ask the Tigers fans about Alan Trammell losing MVP to George Bell or ask Mariners fans how Juan Gonzalez robbed them in 1996.

Bill Marsh
10-02-17, 07:13 AM
I think the thing that really pissed off Yankee fans was that in 78, Guidry had his all time great season 25-3 with a sub 2.00 ERA, won the CY, but Jim Rice won the MVP. So similar situation to 86, but the writers separated the two awards to the chagrin of Yankee fans. You can also point to what happened to Matsui, not winnin the ROY award because he was REALLY a professional, when only a few years earlier they gave the ROY award to Ichiro.

Yes, I was as pissed as anyone in 1986 and 1978.

Trying to be objective, Rice had a historic year in 1978. His 406 Total Bases represented a feat that hasn't been done in the AL in almost 50 years (DiMaggio '37) or in MLB in almost 40 years (Musial '48).

Oddly enough 1978 probably paved the way for for Clemens. There was no anti-Yankee bias back then. Munson had won the MVP in '76 and the Yankees had won multiple MVPs in ever previous decade going back to the '20's. But there was an anti-pitcher bias. The clamor for Guidry in '78 probably led the voters to vote for Clemens to prove they weren't biased against pitchers.

aeromac76
10-02-17, 07:33 AM
BTW the reason I say that would have enhanced his HOF resume significantly ...

How many players in baseball history have won back-to-back MVP's?

I don't know the answer, but I'm betting its not many, and the ones who did, most if not all are probably in the HOF or headed to the HOF. Thats just a guess, I could be wrong?

I think one notable example of a player winning back to back MVPs and not being in the HOF is Roger Maris. He also has one of the most hallowed numbers in history attached to him. So there is precedent..

The last award I thought a Yankee could have won and should have won, but didn't, was the year Matsui came aboard and they gave it to Angel Berroa. Nonetheless, that was quite some time ago, I don't believe there is a current anti Yankee bias. But I guess we will see..

My thought is that Judge should win ROY unanimously, anyone who does not vote for him in that award I DO believe would have anti-Yankee bias.
I do think he is the MVP but there is legit competition there. I could not call anyone giving the award to Altuve as anti-Yankee, but if he finishes out of the top 5, then I would suspect there is something there..

TexasYank23
10-02-17, 07:56 AM
I think altuve is the MVP. He leads the AL in pretty much everything. Hits, WAR, Avg, etc.

Judge is for sure the ROY

mbn007
10-02-17, 08:12 AM
I say BOTH and it shouldn't even be a close call.

What say you?



to say it should not be close is just wrong, IMO. Altuve had a fantastic season, and finished above Judge in several categories. He is a worthy choice, if picked, for MVP


I think Judge should win both, and voted as such. However, I think Altuve has a real good chance of getting it.

mbn007
10-02-17, 08:15 AM
I didn't ask you if you would vote for him for MVP. I said that would have been a huge plus on his HOF resume, and it was a travesty that he didn't win it, that they gave it to a pitcher instead. Mattingly had a monster season for the pre steroids era. Clemens should have won the CY, and he did, and Mattingly should have been MVP, but they gave that to Clemens too.

You asked for evidence ... there you have it.


The only Yankee bias that one can really find in the past few decades are the 2006 MVP, where Morneou (sp??) won over Jeter, and the 2003 ROY where Berroa won over Matsui. Otherwise, it is reasonable to say there has not been much blatant bias against the Yankees.

JDPNYY
10-02-17, 08:32 AM
Altuve is too little to be the MVP. Enough of this crazy talk.

pleasepassthesoup
10-02-17, 09:05 AM
I think Judge should win, but it wouldn't be outrageous for Altuve to win. They both get on base at an extremely similar clip, Altuve has more speed and plays a middle infield position, Judge hits for much more power. I'd take Judge's season over Altuve's, but there's certainly a case for Altuve.

Portbb
10-02-17, 09:23 AM
Every team fan would think that there is bias against his team players. Ask the Tigers fans about Alan Trammell losing MVP to George Bell or ask Mariners fans how Juan Gonzalez robbed them in 1996.

Judge's season similar to both Gonzalez and Griffey Jr's 1996 season.
Is the MVP meaningful? Gonzalez had more MVP's than Griffey, but Griffey got real award.

JayMan92
10-02-17, 09:25 AM
I think altuve is the MVP. He leads the AL in pretty much everything. Hits, WAR, Avg, etc.

Judge is for sure the ROY

No he doesn't, Judge does.

Yankee Tripper
10-02-17, 10:03 AM
I say BOTH and it shouldn't even be a close call.

What say you?

I say both but the MVP should be real close.

JL25and3
10-02-17, 10:03 AM
The only Yankee bias that one can really find in the past few decades are the 2006 MVP, where Morneou (sp??) won over Jeter, and the 2003 ROY where Berroa won over Matsui. Otherwise, it is reasonable to say there has not been much blatant bias against the Yankees.

Again, I donít think that was an anti-Yankee bias but a pro-HR/RBI bias, same as with Gonzalez and Pudge. Itís clear to me that Morneau should not have won the MVP, less clear that Jeter had to. I think a pretty strong case can be made for Joe Mauer, or even Johan Santana. (That makes Morneau the third-best MVP candidate on his own team.)

kan_t
10-02-17, 10:17 AM
The only Yankee bias that one can really find in the past few decades are the 2006 MVP, where Morneou (sp??) won over Jeter, and the 2003 ROY where Berroa won over Matsui. Otherwise, it is reasonable to say there has not been much blatant bias against the Yankees.
I don't think that it's bias against the Yankees in 2006 at all. I could easily say that Mauer was the one who got robbed that year. The voters just made terrible choice.

Jeter .343/.417/.483, 5.5 WAR
Mauer .347/.429/.507, 5.8 WAR

Mr. Mxylsplk
10-02-17, 11:40 AM
I voted just ROY, but whereas even just a few weeks ago I thought the MVP was basically no chance, now I think it's a pretty good chance. His slump got a lot of attention, and I think voters will consider that more heavily than it really warrants, which hurts him. But he rebounded so well, and obviously finished with a vengeance, that really helps him. If he wins, it will be well deserved.

sweet_lou_14
10-02-17, 11:45 AM
The only Yankee bias that one can really find in the past few decades are the 2006 MVP, where Morneou (sp??) won over Jeter, and the 2003 ROY where Berroa won over Matsui. Otherwise, it is reasonable to say there has not been much blatant bias against the Yankees.

You're forgetting the year when Rafael Palmeiro got the Gold Glove over Tino, despite playing only 28 games at 1B all year.

longtimeyankeefan
10-02-17, 11:46 AM
I say BOTH and it shouldn't even be a close call.

What say you?

To me, ROY is a given, but there are others worthy of discussion as the MVP and I think he will finish second to Altuve.

JL25and3
10-02-17, 01:12 PM
You're forgetting the year when Rafael Palmeiro got the Gold Glove over Tino, despite playing only 28 games at 1B all year.

But he also got it over every other actual first baseman in the league. Again, not anti-Yankee bias, just a really, really dumb choice.

JDPNYY
10-02-17, 01:18 PM
Anytime we can avoid Tino making an acceptance speech, or any speaking, the better off we all are. Thank goodness Raffy won.

ymike673
10-02-17, 01:29 PM
You're forgetting the year when Rafael Palmeiro got the Gold Glove over Tino, despite playing only 28 games at 1B all year.

Actually that would not count. BB writers don't vote for the Gold Glove award.

ymike673
10-02-17, 01:31 PM
I have also felt the BB writers don't like to vote for Yankees but Judge will win ROY. Don't think he will win the MVP.

LIYanks
10-02-17, 01:42 PM
After his record breaking season, Judge deserves to win both ROY and MVP.

Altuve had a great season but Judge had one of those seasons that we will probably never witness again in our life time.

Yankee Steve
10-02-17, 01:52 PM
After his record breaking season, Judge deserves to win both ROY and MVP.

Altuve had a great season but Judge had one of those seasons that we will probably never witness again in our life time.

I would agree. As a rookie moving forward, he should cut down on his strikeouts and get better!

mbn007
10-02-17, 02:52 PM
You're forgetting the year when Rafael Palmeiro got the Gold Glove over Tino, despite playing only 28 games at 1B all year.



Gold Glove winners are one award I pay little attention to. There have been winners over the years that are nowhere close to top fielders at their positions. To me, it is some sort of popularity contest.

mbn007
10-02-17, 02:54 PM
After his record breaking season, Judge deserves to win both ROY and MVP.

Altuve had a great season but Judge had one of those seasons that we will probably never witness again in our life time.


Interesting that you say that. After what Sanchez did the last 1/3 of last year, folks were saying no one will ever do that again, blah blah.


Here comes, the very next season, Rhys Hoskins of the Phils, who basically overshadowed Sanchez.

BabyBombers
10-02-17, 02:55 PM
Look back at the year Pedroia won MVP. It is nothing compared to Judges year. Crazy. The only major diffence was BA but if you look at all the splits, Judge blows him away

Mr. Mxylsplk
10-02-17, 03:47 PM
Look back at the year Pedroia won MVP. It is nothing compared to Judges year. Crazy. The only major diffence was BA but if you look at all the splits, Judge blows him away
Altuve similarly blows 2008 Pedroia away. That season just didn't have any outlying exceptional individual seasons.

Maynerd
10-02-17, 03:59 PM
Judge should win Rookie of the Year unanimously.


I think Altuve will win MVP. The voters will react to his .062 higher batting average (I know, I know, but the voters still put a lot of emphasis on BA), rather than Judge's .080 higher slugging average. OBP and OPS+ are in Judge's favor, but not by outlandish margins. I think Judge will be hurt by the cold streak in July, by the record-setting number of strike outs, and by an anti-rookie bias. Positionally, getting that production out of a Second Baseman is going to be perceived as more valuable than getting it out of a corner outfielder.


I hope I'm wrong, but that's my guess for which directions the writers went when they filled out their ballots.

LIYanks
10-02-17, 04:00 PM
Interesting that you say that. After what Sanchez did the last 1/3 of last year, folks were saying no one will ever do that again, blah blah.


Here comes, the very next season, Rhys Hoskins of the Phils, who basically overshadowed Sanchez.

And Sanchez came in second in ROY voting last year. I'm sure if he had a full season to show off his skills, he'd be ROY for sure.

I've been watching baseball for a long time and I really doubt we are going to see another rookie having the season that Judge just had.

Battingly
10-02-17, 05:12 PM
I voted just ROY, but whereas even just a few weeks ago I thought the MVP was basically no chance, now I think it's a pretty good chance. His slump got a lot of attention, and I think voters will consider that more heavily than it really warrants, which hurts him. But he rebounded so well, and obviously finished with a vengeance, that really helps him. If he wins, it will be well deserved.Any baseball writer who expects any hitter, even an MVP, to stay red hot from April thru September without ever cooling off, understands nothing about the game he covers and ought not even have an MVP vote. If they hold Judge to THAT STANDARD, they are basically saying that he needed to break Barry Bonds HR record, or at least Maris to be deserving of MVP, because thats what we're really talking about if you take away the cold spell and he stood hot all year, and thats an absurd standard.

Battingly
10-02-17, 05:22 PM
Altuve similarly blows 2008 Pedroia away.

That season just didn't have any outlying exceptional individual seasons.And yet they still found an everyday player to give it too instead of giving the leagues most dominant SP the CY and MVP, like they did with Clemens in 86, despite the fact that Mattingly's numbers in 86 annihilated Pedroia's in 2008

But nah, there's no anti Yankees bias.

Yankee Tripper
10-02-17, 05:32 PM
And Sanchez came in second in ROY voting last year. I'm sure if he had a full season to show off his skills, he'd be ROY for sure.

I've been watching baseball for a long time and I really doubt we are going to see another rookie having the season that Judge just had.
It wouldn't shock me if we did see another rookie have a season like Judge.

McGwire was .289/.370./.618 49 HR 164 OPS+, Judge was .284/.422/.627 52 HR 171 OPS+

That's not to take anything away from Judge those are probably the two best rookie seasons in my lifetime and Judge was better than Big Mac. The point is there have already been 2 similar rookie seasons in my life time; it wouldn't be that unusual for there to be a 3rd.

kan_t
10-02-17, 05:39 PM
And yet they still found an everyday player to give it too instead of giving the leagues most dominant SP the CY and MVP, like they did with Clemens in 86, despite the fact that Mattingly's numbers in 86 annihilated Pedroia's in 2008

But nah, there's no anti Yankees bias.
Indians fans would say that it's anti Indians bias because Lee didn't win it.

bucky
10-02-17, 06:01 PM
The guy I like to beef about not being in the Hall is Bernie Williams. I could go on and on. So I understand the feeling that bias is working against your favorite player.

There have been so many odd decisions in MVP voting over the years that it's a tough one to focus on as evidence of bias. How do you think Ted Williams felt?

1939 - Williams led the AL in RBI as a rookie. The MVP went to DiMaggio.
1941 - Williams upped his game and batted .406. MVP to DiMaggio.
1942 - Williams dominated the AL by winning the Triple Crown. MVP to NY 2Bman Joe Gordon.
1947 - Williams won his 2nd Triple Crown. MVP went to Joe D again.
1951 - Williams led the AL in 5 categories. MVP went to Yogi Berra.
1954 - Williams led the AL in 4 categories. MVP again went to Berra.
1957 - Williams won his 5th batting title at .388 + led AL in 4 other categories. MVP: Mantle.

Don't ask Ted Williams about an anti-Yankee bias.

Really Great Post, Bill: The Splendid Splinter and Roger Hornsby won the Triple Crown TWICE. John Updike was right - he was a God. I truly believe this will never happen again.
Lastly, everyone knows this but it's important he went to WWII in his prime (42-45) and you just think what he could have done.

(Bud: you know Boston best writers will vote for Benitendi because BoSox won the division. It's a secret ballot)

JL25and3
10-02-17, 06:19 PM
And yet they still found an everyday player to give it too instead of giving the leagues most dominant SP the CY and MVP, like they did with Clemens in 86, despite the fact that Mattingly's numbers in 86 annihilated Pedroia's in 2008

But nah, there's no anti Yankees bias.

How many of the 1986 voters were still there in 2008? And whatís the point of comparing Mattibgly's numbers with Pedroia's 22 years later?

And Iíll ask again: if there was such intense bias, how did Mattingly manage to win the previous year?

Battingly
10-02-17, 06:21 PM
It wouldn't shock me if we did see another rookie have a season like Judge.

McGwire was .289/.370./.618 49 HR 164 OPS+, Judge was .284/.422/.627 52 HR 171 OPS+

That's not to take anything away from Judge those are probably the two best rookie seasons in my lifetime and Judge was better than Big Mac. The point is there have already been 2 similar rookie seasons in my life time; it wouldn't be that unusual for there to be a 3rd.As we now know, the first one was most likely steroids induced.

BabyBombers
10-02-17, 06:45 PM
Aren't the voters going to be exposed for these votes now? Like if someone doesnt vote for Judge as ROY and votes Benintendi, cough cough Peter Gammons, won't we now know who it was? Seriously, anyone who doesn't vote Judge ROY just hates the Yankees. there is no other explaination.

Zimmer's Helmet
10-02-17, 06:54 PM
The guy I like to beef about not being in the Hall is Bernie Williams. I could go on and on. So I understand the feeling that bias is working against your favorite player.

There have been so many odd decisions in MVP voting over the years that it's a tough one to focus on as evidence of bias. How do you think Ted Williams felt?

1939 - Williams led the AL in RBI as a rookie. The MVP went to DiMaggio.
1941 - Williams upped his game and batted .406. MVP to DiMaggio.
1942 - Williams dominated the AL by winning the Triple Crown. MVP to NY 2Bman Joe Gordon.
1947 - Williams won his 2nd Triple Crown. MVP went to Joe D again.
1951 - Williams led the AL in 5 categories. MVP went to Yogi Berra.
1954 - Williams led the AL in 4 categories. MVP again went to Berra.
1957 - Williams won his 5th batting title at .388 + led AL in 4 other categories. MVP: Mantle.

Don't ask Ted Williams about an anti-Yankee bias.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

ymike673
10-02-17, 07:34 PM
And yet they still found an everyday player to give it too instead of giving the leagues most dominant SP the CY and MVP, like they did with Clemens in 86, despite the fact that Mattingly's numbers in 86 annihilated Pedroia's in 2008

But nah, there's no anti Yankees bias.

And they gave Rice the MVP over Guidry because Rice was an everyday player. Which did not seem to count when Clemens won over Mattingly.

ymike673
10-02-17, 07:39 PM
The guy I like to beef about not being in the Hall is Bernie Williams. I could go on and on. So I understand the feeling that bias is working against your favorite player.

There have been so many odd decisions in MVP voting over the years that it's a tough one to focus on as evidence of bias. How do you think Ted Williams felt?

1939 - Williams led the AL in RBI as a rookie. The MVP went to DiMaggio.
1941 - Williams upped his game and batted .406. MVP to DiMaggio.
1942 - Williams dominated the AL by winning the Triple Crown. MVP to NY 2Bman Joe Gordon.
1947 - Williams won his 2nd Triple Crown. MVP went to Joe D again.
1951 - Williams led the AL in 5 categories. MVP went to Yogi Berra.
1954 - Williams led the AL in 4 categories. MVP again went to Berra.
1957 - Williams won his 5th batting title at .388 + led AL in 4 other categories. MVP: Mantle.

Don't ask Ted Williams about an anti-Yankee bias.

Really I think it's more of an anti Steinbrenner thing than anti Yankees. Before 1978 I don't think there was a bias. Munson won the MVP in 76 and I remember being pleasantly surprised when Lyle won the Cy in 77.

Bill Marsh
10-02-17, 08:09 PM
And they gave Rice the MVP over Guidry because Rice was an everyday player. Which did not seem to count when Clemens won over Mattingly.

Rice had 2 things going for him that Mattingly did not:

1. A historic season with 406 Total Bases.

2. His team tied for the division title while Mattingly's Yankees finished 5.5 games back. For whatever reason, voters have always preferred to give the MVP to a player whose team has won something - even if it's a Wild Card or a regular season tie which is followed by a tie breaker loss.

Bill Marsh
10-02-17, 08:10 PM
As we now know, the first one was most likely steroids induced.

AFAIK, Mac didn't begin using until 6-7 years later. Did I miss something?

ymike673
10-02-17, 08:56 PM
Rice had 2 things going for him that Mattingly did not:

1. A historic season with 406 Total Bases.

2. His team tied for the division title while Mattingly's Yankees finished 5.5 games back. For whatever reason, voters have always preferred to give the MVP to a player whose team has won something - even if it's a Wild Card or a regular season tie which is followed by a tie breaker loss.

But Rice's team lost to Guidry's team in the playoff in which Guidry was the winning pitcher. Guidry also shut out Rice and company twice that September.

NYYfan4life90
10-02-17, 10:43 PM
Rice had 2 things going for him that Mattingly did not:

1. A historic season with 406 Total Bases.

2. His team tied for the division title while Mattingly's Yankees finished 5.5 games back. For whatever reason, voters have always preferred to give the MVP to a player whose team has won something - even if it's a Wild Card or a regular season tie which is followed by a tiebreaker loss.

Not always. Remember when Arod won the MVP on a last place team? I'm sorry, but a last-place team shouldn't produce an MVP. Delgado should have won it that year.

So, that's something I do mostly agree with.

JL25and3
10-02-17, 11:17 PM
Not always. Remember when Arod won the MVP on a last place team? I'm sorry, but a last-place team shouldn't produce an MVP. Delgado should have won it that year.

So, that's something I do mostly agree with.

Andre Dawson won on a last-place team, too.

mbn007
10-03-17, 07:34 AM
And Sanchez came in second in ROY voting last year. I'm sure if he had a full season to show off his skills, he'd be ROY for sure.

I've been watching baseball for a long time and I really doubt we are going to see another rookie having the season that Judge just had.



Yes, he did.


And I am pretty certain that Judge will come in 2nd this year. I would love for him to win it, but in all likelihood, he won't, unfortunately.

mbn007
10-03-17, 07:35 AM
It wouldn't shock me if we did see another rookie have a season like Judge.

McGwire was .289/.370./.618 49 HR 164 OPS+, Judge was .284/.422/.627 52 HR 171 OPS+

That's not to take anything away from Judge those are probably the two best rookie seasons in my lifetime and Judge was better than Big Mac. The point is there have already been 2 similar rookie seasons in my life time; it wouldn't be that unusual for there to be a 3rd.


Good point!!

Mr. Mxylsplk
10-03-17, 09:07 AM
And yet they still found an everyday player to give it too instead of giving the leagues most dominant SP the CY and MVP, like they did with Clemens in 86, despite the fact that Mattingly's numbers in 86 annihilated Pedroia's in 2008

But nah, there's no anti Yankees bias.
Even by your standards, this is a bizarre post.

BabyBombers
10-03-17, 09:11 AM
Yes, he did.


And I am pretty certain that Judge will come in 2nd this year. I would love for him to win it, but in all likelihood, he won't, unfortunately.

You think Judge will come in 2nd in the ROY voting? Who comes in first? Or did you mean MVP voting?

mbn007
10-03-17, 09:45 AM
You think Judge will come in 2nd in the ROY voting? Who comes in first? Or did you mean MVP voting?


The conversation was regarding the MVP voting. It would be a farce if any writer voted Judge for a slot below 1st place.

BabyBombers
10-03-17, 10:22 AM
The conversation was regarding the MVP voting. It would be a farce if any writer voted Judge for a slot below 1st place.

Ok thats what I thought. The part you bolded though was talking about Garys ROY chance last year.

I think Judge should get the MVP over Altuve. My reasoning isnt all statistically based, its more of the value based. Judge off the Yankees they win 70 games at best. Altuve off the Astros they still win the division.

BabyBombers
10-03-17, 10:24 AM
Aren't the voters going to be exposed for these votes now? Like if someone doesnt vote for Judge as ROY and votes Benintendi, cough cough Peter Gammons, won't we now know who it was? Seriously, anyone who doesn't vote Judge ROY just hates the Yankees. there is no other explaination.

Bump. Anyone know this? Are voters revealed this year?

Mr. Mxylsplk
10-03-17, 10:55 AM
Bump. Anyone know this? Are voters revealed this year?
Yes. You can see last year's voting, for all awards, in bbwaa's twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/officialbbwaa?lang=en

DontHateOnNumber2
10-03-17, 10:45 PM
I voted both because the Yankees are donezo if Judge wasn't as hot as he was throughout the entire season. Plus he helped carry the team when Gary was out early in the season. I think he ultimately runs away with the ROY award but finishes 2nd in MVP, which is annoying.

DontHateOnNumber2
10-03-17, 10:55 PM
Bump. Anyone know this? Are voters revealed this year?


Yes. You can see last year's voting, for all awards, in bbwaa's twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/officialbbwaa?lang=en


I was under the impression that only the votes for the HOF would be made public...does that include votes for MVP, ROY etc?

Mr. Mxylsplk
10-04-17, 11:11 AM
I was under the impression that only the votes for the HOF would be made public...does that include votes for MVP, ROY etc?
Yes, if you look at my link, you can see tweets linking to the votes for all of those awards from last year.

snapple
10-04-17, 03:20 PM
At some point you have to say, as a voter, outloud "Fifty-two home runs". Both.

Hitman23
10-04-17, 03:24 PM
At some point you have to say, as a voter, outloud "Fifty-two home runs". Both.And another voter is going to say outloud "juiced ball"

But yeah, I think ROY is a lock. MVP could go either way. Folks have been blowing their loads over Altuve all year.

Yankee Tripper
10-04-17, 03:25 PM
At some point you have to say, as a voter, outloud "Fifty-two home runs". Both.
By that logic shouldn't Stanton be the NL MVP?

snapple
10-04-17, 03:30 PM
By that logic shouldn't Stanton be the NL MVP?

To be completely honest, I've been so busy this summer I've barely been able to keep track of the Yankees. I'm saying that in regards to how close it is between Altuve and Judge. And if we're going to bang the "playoffs matter for MVP" drum - Altuve helps the Astros get to the post season. Judge is probably the reason the Yankees got to the post season.

pleasepassthesoup
10-04-17, 03:57 PM
By that logic shouldn't Stanton be the NL MVP?

Toss-up between him and Votto.

Carpi
10-04-17, 04:12 PM
I think he deserves both, but will get only ROY.

In the other hand, writers love the underdog, so I believe Altuve will get it, I won't be upset because he had one hell of a season

Yankee Tripper
10-04-17, 04:30 PM
I think he deserves both, but will get only ROY.

In the other hand, writers love the underdog, so I believe Altuve will get it, I won't be upset because he had one hell of a season
Pretty much my feelings too.

BabyBombers
10-04-17, 07:51 PM
Yes, if you look at my link, you can see tweets linking to the votes for all of those awards from last year.

Good. more pressure for those biased voters to vote straight.

Bill Marsh
10-05-17, 09:40 AM
Toss-up between him and Votto.

I like Blackmon

pleasepassthesoup
10-05-17, 12:04 PM
I like Blackmon

He's also very good. I'd probably put him in that next tier with Rendon and Bryant (probably Rendon 3, Blackmon 4, Bryant 5).

Bill Marsh
10-05-17, 12:30 PM
He's also very good. I'd probably put him in that next tier with Rendon and Bryant (probably Rendon 3, Blackmon 4, Bryant 5).

I think Blackmon'z being overlooked. Consider that he led the league in the following:

- Batting
- Runs
- Hits
- Triples
- Total Bases
- Runs Created

Consider that he also finished in the top 3 in the following:

- Home Runs
- OPS
- XBH
- Times on Base
- oWAR

And here's the big one:

4 GIDP

That's a ridiculously small number for a player who puts the ball in play a lot. And it's huge for his team. Votto grounded into 16 DPs and Stanton 13. That means that they accounted for 12 and 9 more outs for their teams respectively. If that were factored into stats like OBP or OPS, his number would be even more favorable compared to theirs.

Comsider that he led his team to the playoffs and that neither Stanton nor Votto did that. All things considered, IMO he has a much more well rounded resume than the other contenders.

Just my 2 cents. We each have our own priorities when it comes to these awards, so no right or wrong answers.

Yankee Tripper
10-05-17, 12:32 PM
I don't think Blackmon is being overlooked, I think some folks just see some of his stats as a product of the Coors effect. But he deserves consideration and will get it.

NL MVP is pretty wide open and a case can be made for 5 to 7 players this year.

Yankee Tripper
10-05-17, 12:33 PM
And here's the big one:

4 GIDP

Tough to GIDP leading off the game.

pleasepassthesoup
10-05-17, 12:54 PM
I don't think Blackmon is being overlooked, I think some folks just see some of his stats as a product of the Coors effect. But he deserves consideration and will get it.

NL MVP is pretty wide open and a case can be made for 5 to 7 players this year.

I don't think he's a product of Coors (he'd be pretty great no matter where he played), but he's obviously enhanced by it, just as anyone would be. The park adjusted stats bear that out. He's outstanding, but more on-par with Rendon and Rizzo than Stanton or Votto.

Mr. Mxylsplk
10-05-17, 01:05 PM
Tough to GIDP leading off the game.
While that's true, he's still been extremely effective at avoiding double plays. Just comparing him to the two top contenders, he's hit into a DP 3.1% of the time there was man on 1st when he was up. Votto did it 7.4% of the time and Stanton 6.6%. The NL average was 6.6%.

(I'm not saying this make him MVP or anything, just pointing out that his low gidp's is not just due to fewer opportunities).

Yankee Tripper
10-05-17, 01:31 PM
I don't think he's a product of Coors (he'd be pretty great no matter where he played), but he's obviously enhanced by it, just as anyone would be. The park adjusted stats bear that out. He's outstanding, but more on-par with Rendon and Rizzo than Stanton or Votto.
Yeah I didn't mean to imply that he or Arenado for that matter are purely a product of Coors, just that Rookie hitters have an obvious advantage over everyone else.

I mean come on The Rockies have had 11 NL Batting champs in 21 years. That's more than just a statistical outlier.

Bill Marsh
10-05-17, 05:43 PM
Yeah I didn't mean to imply that he or Arenado for that matter are purely a product of Coors, just that Rookie hitters have an obvious advantage over everyone else.

I mean come on The Rockies have had 11 NL Batting champs in 21 years. That's more than just a statistical outlier.

That requires a closer look.

5 of those 11 batting champs were before they installed the humidor in 2003, so let's throw them out since they don't tell us anything about the current hitting conditions there.

In the first decade (2003-12) after they installed the humidor, 2 batting titles were won by Rockies' players. But in that same decade, 2 titles were also won by Giants' players, and same in the AL for the Tigers, Rangers, and Twins. So it didn't appear that anything unusual was owing on in Denver that wasn't going on elsewhere.

4 Rockies' players have won batting titles in the past 5 years. That is a lot! Has that happened anywhere else?

Rockies (1998-2001)
Padres (1994-97)
Pirates (1964-67)
Cardinals (1946-52) [6 in 7]

Tigers (2011-15)
Red Sox (1999-2003)
Red Sox (1983-88)
Twins (1971-78) [7 in 8]

CLearly an offensive ballpark, but maybe they've just had some good hitters lately like those other teams.

BTW, I stopped going back when I got to WW II.

Bill Marsh
10-05-17, 05:57 PM
Altuve playing like the MVP today! :eek:

Carpi
10-05-17, 06:05 PM
That requires a closer look.

5 of those 11 batting champs were before they installed the humidor in 2003, so let's throw them out since they don't tell us anything about the current hitting conditions there.

In the first decade (2003-12) after they installed the humidor, 2 batting titles were won by Rockies's players. But in that same decade, 2 titles were also won by Giants' player, and same in the AL for the Tigers, Rangers, and Twins. So it didn't appear that anything unusual was owing on in Denver that wasn't going on elsewhere.

4 Rockies' players have won batting titles in the past 5 years. That is a lot! Has that happened anywhere else?

Rockies (1998-2001)
Padres (1994-97)
Pirates (1964-67)
Cardinals (1946-52) [6 in 7]

Tigers (2011-15)
Red Sox (1999-2003)
Red Sox (1983-88)
Twins (1971-78) [7 in 8]

CLearly an offensive ballpark, but maybe they've just had some good hitters lately like those other teams.

BTW, I stopped going back when I got to WW II.


I think the ballpark has more influence than you think, in all those teams only one player had all those batting titles and all of them are already in the HOF with the exception of Miguel Cabrera, Which I believe will be a first ballot HOF when his time comes, take a look:

Rockies (1998-2001)
Padres (1994-97) Tony Gwynn (HOF)
Pirates (1964-67) Roberto Clemente (HOF)
Cardinals (1946-52) [6 in 7] Stan Musial (HOF)

Tigers (2011-15) Miguel Cabrera (likely HOF)
Red Sox (1999-2003)
Red Sox (1983-88) Wade Boggs (HOF)
Twins (1971-78) [7 in 8] Rod Carew (HOF)

So besides the late 90's Red Sox (two of them is Nomar G., which looked like a HOF before his injuries break down), the only common factor is the ballpark in Colorado

JL25and3
10-05-17, 06:22 PM
That requires a closer look.

5 of those 11 batting champs were before they installed the humidor in 2003, so let's throw them out since they don't tell us anything about the current hitting conditions there.

In the first decade (2003-12) after they installed the humidor, 2 batting titles were won by Rockies' players. But in that same decade, 2 titles were also won by Giants' players, and same in the AL for the Tigers, Rangers, and Twins. So it didn't appear that anything unusual was owing on in Denver that wasn't going on elsewhere.

4 Rockies' players have won batting titles in the past 5 years. That is a lot! Has that happened anywhere else?

Rockies (1998-2001)
Padres (1994-97)
Pirates (1964-67)
Cardinals (1946-52) [6 in 7]

Tigers (2011-15)
Red Sox (1999-2003)
Red Sox (1983-88)
Twins (1971-78) [7 in 8]

CLearly an offensive ballpark, but maybe they've just had some good hitters lately like those other teams.

BTW, I stopped going back when I got to WW II.
Well, you know there's a big difference between the Rockies recent streak and almost all the others you mention. The Rockies have won 4 out of the last 5, 5 out of the last 8, 6 out of the last 11 - all by different players. Of the other teams you mention, only Boston 1999-2003 come close: 4 titles in 5 years by 3 players.

Tigers: Cabrera x 4
Padres: Gwynn x 4
Red Sox: Boggs x 5
Twins: Oliva, then Carew x 6
Pirates: Clemente x 3, plus M. Alou
Cardinals: Harry "The Hat" Walker in 1947 doesn't really count, because he only played 10 game for the Cards before they traded him to Philadelphia. Otherwise, Musial x 5.

I don't know what the recent streak of batting title by Rockies players means, but it's really not comparable to those other runs.

Bill Marsh
10-05-17, 07:06 PM
Well, you know there's a big difference between the Rockies recent streak and almost all the others you mention. The Rockies have won 4 out of the last 5, 5 out of the last 8, 6 out of the last 11 - all by different players. Of the other teams you mention, only Boston 1999-2003 come close: 4 titles in 5 years by 3 players.

Tigers: Cabrera x 4
Padres: Gwynn x 4
Red Sox: Boggs x 5
Twins: Oliva, then Carew x 6
Pirates: Clemente x 3, plus M. Alou
Cardinals: Harry "The Hat" Walker in 1947 doesn't really count, because he only played 10 game for the Cards before they traded him to Philadelphia. Otherwise, Musial x 5.

I don't know what the recent streak of batting title by Rockies players means, but it's really not comparable to those other runs.

Rockies (98-01) - 2 players
Padres (92-97) - 2 players
Pirates (64-67) - 2 players
Cardinals (46-52) - 2 players

Red Sox (99-03) - 3 players
Twins (69-73) - 2 players
You're right that these other runs were mostly anchored by one great hitter. But there were other streaks. In 1957-63, Red Sox players won 5 titles in 7 years. Not 4 in 5, but close enough. That feat involved 3 different players.

Right before Wade Boggs won his 4 consecutive batting titles, the Sox won 3 in 5 years (1979-83) with 3 different players.

The Pirates won 5 titles in 7 years (1960-66) with 3 different players.

Sometimes teams come up with a bunch of really good hitters who peal at around the same time.

There's no doubt that Coors is a hitter's park, but it's not the other worldly environment for hitters that it was before the humidor.

There's also little doubt that Fenway is a hitter's park, but no one had a problem giving the MVP to Pedroia, or Yaz, or Williams. There's no doubt that Yankee Stasium is a home run hitter's park, but no one had a problem giving MVPs to ARod, Mantle, Maris, Gehrig, or Ruth.

The only reason we're talking about this is to decide if Blackmom deserves consideration for MVP. Or Arenado either. Fact is their team was in a pennant race, they played in pressure games, and they had to produce at a better rate than the opposition. They did that.

Bill Marsh
10-05-17, 07:09 PM
I think the ballpark has more influence than you think, in all those teams only one player had all those batting titles and all of them are already in the HOF with the exception of Miguel Cabrera, Which I believe will be a first ballot HOF when his time comes, take a look:

Rockies (1998-2001)
Padres (1994-97) Tony Gwynn (HOF)
Pirates (1964-67) Roberto Clemente (HOF)
Cardinals (1946-52) [6 in 7] Stan Musial (HOF)

Tigers (2011-15) Miguel Cabrera (likely HOF)
Red Sox (1999-2003)
Red Sox (1983-88) Wade Boggs (HOF)
Twins (1971-78) [7 in 8] Rod Carew (HOF)

So besides the late 90's Red Sox (two of them is Nomar G., which looked like a HOF before his injuries break down), the only common factor is the ballpark in Colorado

You're right. The ballpark matters, but it shouldn't stand in the way of Blackmon or Arenado getting MVP votes any more than YAnkee Stadium should diminish what Judge has done in consideration of him being MVP.

JL25and3
10-05-17, 08:44 PM
The only reason we're talking about this is toecids if Vlackmom deserves consideration for MVP. Or Arenado either. Fact is their team was in a pennant race, they played in pressure games, and they had to produce at a better rate than the opposition. They did that.


You're right. The ballpark matters, but it shouldn't stand in the way of Blackmon or Arenado getting MVP votes any more than YAnkee Stadium should diminish what Judge has done in consideration of him being MVP.

I'll agree with all that, except maybe for the toecids. That part's debatable.

sweet_lou_14
10-05-17, 10:38 PM
I'll agree with all that, except maybe for the toecids. That part's debatable.

I'm upset that toecids were even brought up. That's highly insensitive and could even be a violation of CS.

Bill Marsh
10-06-17, 07:14 AM
I'll agree with all that, except maybe for the toecids. That part's debatable.

Sorry about the typo. I may have invented a new word but even I don't know what it means. :lol:

Carpi
10-06-17, 09:24 AM
You're right. The ballpark matters, but it shouldn't stand in the way of Blackmon or Arenado getting MVP votes any more than YAnkee Stadium should diminish what Judge has done in consideration of him being MVP.

Completely agree, it shouldn't be on the way unless you have crazy splits between home/away stats

Carpi
10-06-17, 09:28 AM
Completely agree, it shouldn't be on the way unless you have crazy splits between home/away stats

By the way, I don't remember any "cheap" HR from Judge in Yankee stadium, most of them were crushed all over the fence

Bill Marsh
10-06-17, 10:13 AM
Completely agree, it shouldn't be on the way unless you have crazy splits between home/away stats

In that case, Blackmon's out of the running. ;)

Hitman23
10-06-17, 10:26 AM
By the way, I don't remember any "cheap" HR from Judge in Yankee stadium, most of them were crushed all over the fenceThe few home runs that barely made it we're line drives going a million miles per hour. Still impressive.

dannyyankou
10-07-17, 11:08 PM
ROY definitely.

MVP will be close. But the Astros would make the playoffs without Altuve, while the Yankees probably wouldnít without Judge.

ArodEra
10-14-17, 06:20 PM
If the postseason were counted, Altuve would be the slam dunk for MVP. The dude is clutch. I still think he gets it.

-tz
10-15-17, 11:31 AM
If the postseason were counted, Altuve would be the slam dunk for MVP. The dude is clutch. I still think he gets it.I didn't see much of him during the regular season, but if his postseason performance so far is at all emblematic of his regular season, I agree.

ymike673
10-15-17, 01:14 PM
ROY definitely.

MVP will be close. But the Astros would make the playoffs without Altuve, while the Yankees probably wouldn’t without Judge.

Which is why you can make a case for Judge being the MVP. Kind of like the season where Jeter could have been the MVP but maybe did not win because of Williams, O'Neill and co. on the same team.

JL25and3
10-15-17, 01:55 PM
Which is why you can make a case for Judge being the MVP. Kind of like the season where Jeter could have been the MVP but maybe did not win because of Williams, O'Neill and co. on the same team.
I don't know if you're talking about 1998 or 1999, but I don't know that that was the reason Jeter didn't win. In both cases he was clearly better than the guy who won, byt so were a bunch of other guys. Jeter didn't have the strongest case.

ymike673
10-15-17, 06:47 PM
I don't know if you're talking about 1998 or 1999, but I don't know that that was the reason Jeter didn't win. In both cases he was clearly better than the guy who won, byt so were a bunch of other guys. Jeter didn't have the strongest case.

I believe 1999.

JL25and3
10-15-17, 07:10 PM
I believe 1999.
I think there's a much better case to be made that Manny Ramirez and Roberto Alomar got jobbed by being in on a team with a strong, deep lineup that ran away with the division, and by cancelling each other out as well. The Yankees only won the division by 4 games. Pudge who won that year, was part of an offensive powerhouse.

The MVP voters, as usual, loved the HR and RBI. But they didn't give it to Manny for the reasons above and because, well, Manny. They didn't want to give it to Juan Gonzalez for a third undeserved time, or to Palmeiro as DH, to up came Rodriguez - with the power numbers, and a great catcher.

The best player in the league by far was Pedro, and the Red Sox wouldn't have sniffed the postseason without him.