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View Full Version : Chipper Jones to Retire Following 2012 Season



pleasepassthesoup
03-22-12, 10:52 AM
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7721523/chipper-jones-atlanta-braves-retire-end-season

I figured this deserved it's own thread. Chipper is an all-time great and, while injuries and age have caught up with him, he's managed to be pretty productive even now that he's reaching the end of his Hall of Fame career.

.304/.402/.533, 454 HR, 1561 RBI, 141 OPS+. An MVP award, 7 All-Star appearances, and a World Series ring.

Sixty one
03-22-12, 10:57 AM
First ballot HOFer! My question is.....How does he get thru this whole 2012 season with out serious injuries?

JL25and3
03-22-12, 11:33 AM
He's definitely in the discussion for second-best third baseman ever.

The Braves sure are lucky that they took Todd Van Poppel at his word.

fredgmuggs
03-22-12, 12:04 PM
He's definitely in the discussion for second-best third baseman ever.

The Braves sure are lucky that they took Todd Van Poppel at his word.

I'm assuming Mike Schmidt is your number one guy (mine, as well). I'll take George Brett over Jones. Probably Brooks and Eddie Mathews, too. And when does ARod come into the discussion?

Yankee Tripper
03-22-12, 12:24 PM
I'm assuming Mike Schmidt is your number one guy (mine, as well). I'll take George Brett over Jones. Probably Brooks and Eddie Mathews, too. And when does ARod come into the discussion?
Matthews is an excellent comp for Larry.
Brett was a different player and the offensive era's were a bit different. I could see them being a tossup.
Brooks was a great defender and if you are setting an all defenseive team, he's the guy but he couldn't hold a candle to any of the other 3rd baseman in the discussion.

As for A-rod good question because some day he may belong in the all-time SS and all-time 3B discussions. Though for some the A-roid stigma will exclude him from the top spot in either.

awy
03-22-12, 12:36 PM
unfortunately for chipper him playing in the high offense era really made people not get amazed by his offensive performance

effdamets
03-22-12, 12:36 PM
I'm assuming Mike Schmidt is your number one guy (mine, as well). I'll take George Brett over Jones. Probably Brooks and Eddie Mathews, too. And when does ARod come into the discussion?
Nettles

HelloNewman
03-22-12, 01:04 PM
NettlesNot even close

Yankee Tripper
03-22-12, 01:10 PM
Nettles
He's not even the #2 alltime yankee 3B

HelloNewman
03-22-12, 01:12 PM
Wade Boggs should probably be on the list somewhere. His ratio stats suffered some as he hung around several years for the counting stat (3,000 hits). Great hitter in his prime though.

Had a perception early on of being a bad fielder but he never looked that awful to me. :dunno:

fredgmuggs
03-22-12, 01:25 PM
Matthews is an excellent comp for Larry.
Brett was a different player and the offensive era's were a bit different. I could see them being a tossup.
Brooks was a great defender and if you are setting an all defenseive team, he's the guy but he couldn't hold a candle to any of the other 3rd baseman in the discussion.

As for A-rod good question because some day he may belong in the all-time SS and all-time 3B discussions. Though for some the A-roid stigma will exclude him from the top spot in either.

Robinson was a better offensive player than he gets credit for. Certainly not spectacular but solid during an era with down offensive numbers. And that glove of his made up for any offensive deficiencies. I grew up watching those Orioles teams always beating my Yankees teams. Brooks always made a great play or a got a hit to kill the Yanks. (Man, I hated the Orioles back in those days)

Yankee Tripper
03-22-12, 01:48 PM
Robinson was a better offensive player than he gets credit for. Certainly not spectacular but solid during an era with down offensive numbers. And that glove of his made up for any offensive deficiencies. I grew up watching those Orioles teams always beating my Yankees teams. Brooks always made a great play or a got a hit to kill the Yanks. (Man, I hated the Orioles back in those days)
His best days were before my time but looking back at stats it looks like he had one truely outstanding offensive year in 1964 when he won the MVP and 5 or 6 other very good years and quite a few subpar years thrown in for good measure.

I know OPS+ isn't a prefect stat but it is a nice guide line but his 1964 season with his 145 OPS+ is the only season he posed an OPS+ higher than any of the other 3rd basemans CAREER OPS+ and he finsihed his career with a pretty average 104 OPS+.

He was a decent offensive player but it was his glove that got him in to Cooprerstown.

ieddyi
03-22-12, 03:26 PM
Lar reee

boo_427
03-22-12, 03:52 PM
Over/under around my office is will he play 100 games?

The other going bet... will he be the starting 3rd baseman the last game of the regular season?

Having know about Chipper since his days at Bolles this really puts my age into perspective. I hope he stays healthy this year and the Braves somehow find their way into the playoffs.

Rocketman
03-22-12, 07:02 PM
How should we rank Chipper among the all-time greats? That's a wonderful question.

Going by Fangraphs WAR all the way back to 1920 (the live ball era), we have the following:


Alex Rodriguez, 112.5
Mike Schmidt, 110.6
Eddie Mathews, 107.2
Wade Boggs, 94.8
Brooks Robinson, 94.6
George Brett, 91.6
Chipper Jones, 87.5


So that's our listing if we assume ARod is a 3rd baseman for his career. The reality is he accumulated many of these statistics at SS, so it's not entirely accurate. Beyond that, he's clearly still in the midst of his career and may even have some very good seasons left.

So taking ARod out of the discussion we have Mike Schmidt at #1. He was fantastic defensively on all accounts and smashed 548 HR in an era when home runs were hard to come by. Although Chipper has accumulated 454 in a similar number of at bats, it was in a far easier era to hit home runs and therefore we have to discount his power, and although at his peak Chipper was a good baserunner, so too was Schmidt (who has more career SB than Chipper even still).

So Schmidt stays #1.

The real question is: who is #2? Pouring through the numbers, it appears that Mathews probably deserves to be called the second best. He had better peak seasons than Chipper, for instance. Brooks Robinson was wonderful defensively, but he had to be to stay in the company of these sluggers because he really wasn't all that great a hitter. George Brett also had better peak seasons, but aside from those Chipper was a more consistent player. Wade Boggs might be the best modern player who only once hit more than 11 home runs, so he's in the running too.

Ah well. It's really a toss up!

JL25and3
03-22-12, 07:57 PM
I'm assuming Mike Schmidt is your number one guy (mine, as well). I'll take George Brett over Jones. Probably Brooks and Eddie Mathews, too. And when does ARod come into the discussion?


How should we rank Chipper among the all-time greats? That's a wonderful question.

Going by Fangraphs WAR all the way back to 1920 (the live ball era), we have the following:


Alex Rodriguez, 112.5
Mike Schmidt, 110.6
Eddie Mathews, 107.2
Wade Boggs, 94.8
Brooks Robinson, 94.6
George Brett, 91.6
Chipper Jones, 87.5


So that's our listing if we assume ARod is a 3rd baseman for his career. The reality is he accumulated many of these statistics at SS, so it's not entirely accurate. Beyond that, he's clearly still in the midst of his career and may even have some very good seasons left.

So taking ARod out of the discussion we have Mike Schmidt at #1. He was fantastic defensively on all accounts and smashed 548 HR in an era when home runs were hard to come by. Although Chipper has accumulated 454 in a similar number of at bats, it was in a far easier era to hit home runs and therefore we have to discount his power, and although at his peak Chipper was a good baserunner, so too was Schmidt (who has more career SB than Chipper even still).

So Schmidt stays #1.

The real question is: who is #2? Pouring through the numbers, it appears that Mathews probably deserves to be called the second best. He had better peak seasons than Chipper, for instance. Brooks Robinson was wonderful defensively, but he had to be to stay in the company of these sluggers because he really wasn't all that great a hitter. George Brett also had better peak seasons, but aside from those Chipper was a more consistent player. Wade Boggs might be the best modern player who only once hit more than 11 home runs, so he's in the running too.

Ah well. It's really a toss up!

#1 isn't a question; there's Schmidt, and then there's everyone else. He was a very fine fielder, he had good speed, massive power, lots of walks - a sabermetrician's wet dream. I also give him extra credit - it took him a little while to become a good hitter, and he was downright lousy for his first year+. Needless to say, he took a lot of abuse from Phillies fans.

Brett and Mathews would be Chipper's competition. I can't say much about Mathews; I only remember the very tail end of his career, and I don't even remember much about that. Brett, on the other hand, was one of the opposing players I most enjoyed watching in my lifetime (Kirk Gibson and, especially, Junior Griffey also come to mind). Brett wasn't the fielder Schmidt was, he didn't draw many walks, and he only had moderate HR power. He had great gap power, though, and could run. That whole Royals team was a pleasure to watch, a wonderful balance of hitting, power, speed and defense (Amos Otis was very underrated).

Boggs was great, but much more one-dimensional than Brett or Mathews. That one year he hit more than 11 HR was 1987, a wacky year when all sorts of people had huge one-year HR spikes for no apparent reason.

You're right, Muggs, Brooks was a better offensive player than many people think. His reputation suffered somewhat because of the long and ineffectual tail end of his career, but he was pretty good in the 60s. He still doesn't make it into this discussion.

As for ARod, we'll just have to wait and see.

Stick Michael
03-23-12, 08:11 AM
He's definitely in the discussion for second-best third baseman ever.

Respectfully, that's a difficult argument to make. Chipper offensive numbers, particularly in the prime of his career, can go toe to toe with any HOF third baseman. His history of injuries and less than stellar defensive ability, however, keep him from being in the 'All-Time' discussion. He's 'only' a future Hall of Famer.

BronxYanks45
03-23-12, 08:47 AM
definetly a HOFer but not a first ballot more like a second ballot guy I say 1st time he probably gets like 68%

boo_427
03-23-12, 09:04 AM
Does the fact that he is a switch hitter move him up in consideration for the Hall?

Second all time in OWAR for switch hitters, third for homeruns. Only argument against him is his glove and I personally never thought it was a liability.

I guess there was the left field experiment during the Vinny Castilla era in Atlanta.

JL25and3
03-23-12, 09:14 AM
Respectfully, that's a difficult argument to make. Chipper offensive numbers, particularly in the prime of his career, can go toe to toe with any HOF third baseman. His history of injuries and less than stellar defensive ability, however, keep him from being in the 'All-Time' discussion. He's 'only' a future Hall of Famer.
I don't know about Mathews, but Brett was never a great defensive third baseman - not bad, certainly, but not great either. Schmidt is the only one I know of who was great both offensively and defensively, which is one of the reasons he has no competition for the top spot.

effdamets
03-23-12, 09:25 AM
Not even close


He's not even the #2 alltime yankee 3B

Opinions vary.

fredgmuggs
03-23-12, 09:28 AM
I don't know about Mathews, but Brett was never a great defensive third baseman - not bad, certainly, but not great either. Schmidt is the only one I know of who was great both offensively and defensively, which is one of the reasons he has no competition for the top spot.

What kind of glove did Home Run Baker and Pie Traynor have, JL?

JL25and3
03-23-12, 09:30 AM
Opinions vary.
I loved Nettles. Getting him was one of the key moves they made in the early 70s; it was also one of the shadiest deals of the 20th century. Terrific player and a funny guy, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same paragraph as Brett, Mathews or Chipper.

effdamets
03-23-12, 09:37 AM
I loved Nettles. Getting him was one of the key moves they made in the early 70s; it was also one of the shadiest deals of the 20th century. Terrific player and a funny guy, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same paragraph as Brett, Mathews or Chipper.
Overall numbers you're right (his OPB was pretty bad). But Nettles could field with anyone.
There are some that say he was as good as Robinson with the glove - people that got to watch him everyday, like Clete Boyer (who was no slouch himself).
Those teams of the 70's have a special place in my heart.

fredgmuggs
03-23-12, 09:39 AM
I loved Nettles. Getting him was one of the key moves they made in the early 70s; it was also one of the shadiest deals of the 20th century. Terrific player and a funny guy, but he shouldn't be mentioned in the same paragraph as Brett, Mathews or Chipper.

I don't know what you mean? Gabe Paul had no idea he was going to leave the Indians to run the Yankees under George Steinbrenner. :-whistle- (I think he might have been part of the ownership group as well but I'm too lazy to research that).

JL25and3
03-23-12, 09:40 AM
Overall numbers you're right (his OPB was pretty bad). But Nettles could field with anyone.
There are some that say he was as good as Robinson with the glove - people that got to watch him everyday.
Those teams of the 70's have a special place in my heart.
They're still my favorite teams as well. They weren't just excellent, they were balanced and fun to watch. With Steinbrenner moving into his peak a$$hole phase, along with Martin, Reggie, Munson and characters like Rivers, Lyle and Nettles, they sure as hell were never boring.

effdamets
03-23-12, 09:53 AM
They're still my favorite teams as well. They weren't just excellent, they were balanced and fun to watch. With Steinbrenner moving into his peak a$$hole phase, along with Martin, Reggie, Munson and characters like Rivers, Lyle and Nettles, they sure as hell were never boring.
Those teams of the mid 70's were the first Yankee teams I really knew. I thought that's the way baseball was.... It's also the reason why I had a very difficult time dealing with 1982 thru 1994...... :(

Yankee Tripper
03-23-12, 11:17 AM
They're still my favorite teams as well. They weren't just excellent, they were balanced and fun to watch. With Steinbrenner moving into his peak a$$hole phase, along with Martin, Reggie, Munson and characters like Rivers, Lyle and Nettles, they sure as hell were never boring.

Those teams of the mid 70's were the first Yankee teams I really knew. I thought that's the way baseball was.... It's also the reason why I had a very difficult time dealing with 1982 thru 1994...... :(
Me too. And while i like Nettles a lot and totally agree he was a ket component of those 70s teams, I also agree with JL when he says Nettels has no business being considered an all time great 3B. Heck he doesn't even belong in the HOF discussion. Though that fielding clinic he put on against the Dodgers was something to watch.

HerbieLee20
03-23-12, 04:00 PM
Though that fielding clinic he put on against the Dodgers was something to watch.

Still have the back page of the PHL Daily News somewhere (1981 Series) with a shot of him in the process of vaccuming.... headline "Yanks Nettle Dodgers".

JL25and3
03-26-12, 08:47 AM
I don't know what you mean? Gabe Paul had no idea he was going to leave the Indians to run the Yankees under George Steinbrenner. :-whistle- (I think he might have been part of the ownership group as well but I'm too lazy to research that).
Yes, he was part of the ownership group, but he was supposedly a last-minute addition. And since that wasn't revealed until six weeks after the Nettles trade, it's inconceivable that he might have been engaged in any shenanigans.

Researching this, I found out something I had completely forgotten: originally there were two general partners, George Steinbrenner and Mike Burke, who was to continue as CEO and team president. Paul was going to be an adviser, but wasn't supposed to take anyone's job. Burke: "We have one general manager, Lee MacPhail. this is a nice way for Gabe Paul to close out his baseball career. He's 63 and intends to retire to Florida in a couple of years. We'll simply use his baseball knowledge as constructively as we can." Paul: "I insisted on complete assurance that nothing would happen to Lee MacPhail, one of my closest friends, or to Ralph Houk, whom I consider the best manager in baseball."

(There was a slew of limited partners in addition to Paul, including John DeLorean. I mention that only so I can quote the immortal words of John McMullen: "There is nothing in life quite so limited as being a limited partner of George.")

Burke resigned as CEO and president before the end of April, supposedly because of conflicts with Steinbrenner (inconceivable!). Day-to-day operations were taken over by GM Lee MacPhail and "administrative partner in charge of business affairs" Gabe Paul. Houk was let go at the end of the season, when MacPhail also left to become AL president.
'
Muggs, I know you have your own reasons to be bitter about the Nettles trade: it meant the end of the line for Celerino Sanchez.

fredgmuggs
03-26-12, 09:27 AM
Yes, he was part of the ownership group, but he was supposedly a last-minute addition. And since that wasn't revealed until six weeks after the Nettles trade, it's inconceivable that he might have been engaged in any shenanigans.

Researching this, I found out something I had completely forgotten: originally there were two general partners, George Steinbrenner and Mike Burke, who was to continue as CEO and team president. Paul was going to be an adviser, but wasn't supposed to take anyone's job. Burke: "We have one general manager, Lee MacPhail. this is a nice way for Gabe Paul to close out his baseball career. He's 63 and intends to retire to Florida in a couple of years. We'll simply use his baseball knowledge as constructively as we can." Paul: "I insisted on complete assurance that nothing would happen to Lee MacPhail, one of my closest friends, or to Ralph Houk, whom I consider the best manager in baseball."

(There was a slew of limited partners in addition to Paul, including John DeLorean. I mention that only so I can quote the immortal words of John McMullen: "There is nothing in life quite so limited as being a limited partner of George.")

Burke resigned as CEO and president before the end of April, supposedly because of conflicts with Steinbrenner (inconceivable!). Day-to-day operations were taken over by GM Lee MacPhail and "administrative partner in charge of business affairs" Gabe Paul. Houk was let go at the end of the season, when MacPhail also left to become AL president.
'
Muggs, I know you have your own reasons to be bitter about the Nettles trade: it meant the end of the line for Celerino Sanchez.

Celerino was a folkhero for about a 3 week stretch. And I don't know if you remember this but Nettles started out really slow and folks were booing him.

By the way, the recent Bill Madden Steinbrenner bio is a terrific book and he detailed the Mike Burke-Steinbrenner match not made in heaven very thoroughly.

boo_427
03-26-12, 10:53 AM
Chipper Jones underwent knee surgery to repair a torn meniscus on Saturday. Apparently the injury occurred an hour before his retirement announcement.

kan_t
08-18-12, 08:12 AM
144 OPS+

Please don't retire.

The Comic Book Guy
08-18-12, 10:08 AM
144 OPS+

Please don't retire.

It's a real shame that he hasn't had a completely healthy season since 2003. He's posted a 141 OPS+ since then, but hasn't played in more than 143 games in a season. You wonder what his counting stats would look like had he played his entire career in the AL and could DH once in a while.