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View Full Version : Larkin elected to HOF; Bagwell, Raines snubbed again



The Comic Book Guy
01-09-12, 02:29 PM
Barry Larkin, who was planning to spend his morning on the golf course trying to calm his nerves, will be spending the rest of his day celebrating his entrance into baseball's Hall of Fame.

Larkin, who spent his entire 19-year career with the Cincinnati Reds, was the lone player inducted into the Hall of Fame on his third year of the ballot. Larkin received 86.4% of the vote of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, eclipsing the 75% needed for induction.

Jack Morris fell short again at 66.7%, his 13th time on the ballot, but improved from last year (53.5%). Morris was followed by Jeff Bagwell (56.0%), Lee Smith (50.6%), Tim Raines (48.7%) and Edgar Martinez (36.5%). Bernie Williams had the most votes (9.6%) of the first-timers on the ballot.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/01/reds-barry-larkin-elected-hall-of-fame/1

And somehow Jack Morris continues to gain momentum. He's like a bizarro Bert Blyleven.

pleasepassthesoup
01-09-12, 03:09 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/01/reds-barry-larkin-elected-hall-of-fame/1

And somehow Jack Morris continues to gain momentum. He's like a bizarro Bert Blyleven.

ZOMG game 7 against Smoltz! MUST INDUCT!!!

Grav
01-09-12, 03:15 PM
Results for easy viewing:

86.4 - Barry Larkin
66.7 - Jack Morris
56.0 - Jeff Bagwell
50.6 - Lee Smith
48.7 - Tim Raines
36.8 - Alan Trammell
36.5 - Edgar Martinez
23.9 - Fred McGriff
22.9 - Larry Walker
19.5 - Mark McGwire
17.8 - Don Mattingly
14.5 - Dale Murphy
12.6 - Rafael Palmeiro
9.6 - Bernie Williams
--------------------------------
4.0 - Juan Gonzalez
1.0 - Vinny Castilla
0.9 - Tim Salmon
0.7 - Bill Mueller
0.3 - Brad Radke
0.2 - Javy Lopez
0.2 - Eric Young
0 - Jeromy Burnitz, Brian Jordan, Terry Mulholland, Phil Nevin, Ruben Sierra, Tony Womack

Yankee Tripper
01-09-12, 03:15 PM
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/dailypitch/post/2012/01/reds-barry-larkin-elected-hall-of-fame/1

And somehow Jack Morris continues to gain momentum. He's like a bizarro Bert Blyleven.
Except Blyleven was acutally good.

The Comic Book Guy
01-09-12, 03:17 PM
Except Blyleven was acutally good.

Hence the 'bizarro' designation.

Grav
01-09-12, 03:23 PM
Jack Morris jumps 13% to 66.7%...

Thankfully the influx of top-flight candidates next year should prevent that number from getting any higher.

The Comic Book Guy
01-09-12, 03:32 PM
Can we also comment on the stupidity of allowing baseball writers to vote for the HOF for life??

Seriously, Pedro Gomez should have the privileges stripped from him immediately for putting Bill Mueller on his ballot.

snapple
01-09-12, 03:39 PM
Wallace Matthews just tweeted about me about this. The old broken clock thing. ;)

Yankee Fan in Boston
01-09-12, 03:41 PM
Can we also comment on the stupidity of allowing baseball writers to vote for the HOF for life??

Seriously, Pedro Gomez should have the privileges stripped from him immediately for putting Bill Mueller on his ballot.

At 0.7, Mueller must have gotten multiple vote, right? I just checked out his career statistics; I now appreciate how absurd those votes are.

Glad Larkin got in though.

YankeePride1967
01-09-12, 04:47 PM
Sierra Mist "How did the Sweet Prince Ruben Sierra not get in?"

Yankee Tripper
01-09-12, 04:54 PM
At 0.7, Mueller must have gotten multiple vote, right? I just checked out his career statistics; I now appreciate how absurd those votes are.

Probably gave some writer an exclusive once. Or hooked him up with some groupies.

azzurribaggio
01-09-12, 07:01 PM
Can we also comment on the stupidity of allowing baseball writers to vote for the HOF for life??

Seriously, Pedro Gomez should have the privileges stripped from him immediately for putting Bill Mueller on his ballot.

If these lame duck votes went to the guys struggling to get in each year it might actually make a difference.
If old people need to get re-tested for their D/L...then writers need to be scrutinized on how they are voting and have those privileges revoked if they are idiots!!!!

False1
01-09-12, 07:11 PM
Tim Raines with less than 50% is a travesty.

Ram Man
01-09-12, 07:38 PM
Tim Raines with less than 50% is a travesty.

Yes, but he got 38% last year. He's on a good trajectory.

longtimeyankeefan
01-09-12, 07:47 PM
Sierra Mist "How did the Sweet Prince Ruben Sierra not get in?"

I agree - how is it that Ruben Sierra did not get any votes? Couldn't he steal one at least?

Yankee Fan in Boston
01-09-12, 07:52 PM
Yes, but he got 38% last year. He's on a good trajectory.

You had to expect that. He had a great year last year.

MoVaughnEatsAlot
01-09-12, 07:52 PM
Absolutely no reason Bagwell and Raines shouldn't get in, horrible.

Ram Man
01-09-12, 08:08 PM
Absolutely no reason Bagwell and Raines shouldn't get in, horrible.

Good article here (http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/19782/larkin-gets-in-but-good-news-for-bagwell-raines) about those that get 50% of the vote and their future chances.

JL25and3
01-09-12, 08:17 PM
At 0.7, Mueller must have gotten multiple vote, right? I just checked out his career statistics; I now appreciate how absurd those votes are.

Glad Larkin got in though.


If these lame duck votes went to the guys struggling to get in each year it might actually make a difference.
If old people need to get re-tested for their D/L...then writers need to be scrutinized on how they are voting and have those privileges revoked if they are idiots!!!!
The writers are allowed to vote for ten players on each ballot. That means that a vote Bill Mueller doesn't take votes away from Bagwell or Raines; the worst it does is take votes away from Don Mattingly or Larry Walker, guys who aren't getting elected anyway.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to allow ten votes; it should be cut to five, or even three. But as it stands, the tenth slot is essentially meaningless anyway. So I don't really have a problem with it if a writer wants to toss that single vote to a player whom he really appreciated for one reason or another, a little tip of the hat to someone he'd like to acknowledge without seriously thinking he's a Hall of Famer. It's the top of the ballot that actually elects Hall of Famers, and I don't see that a vote or two does even the slightest damage to the integrity of the vote.

The writers haven't been the big problem with Hall of Fame selections. Sure, they've made bad choices along the way. But far worse damage was done by the Veterans Committee, who elected a whole slew of the least deserving inductees. They're the ones who watered down the Hall.

Yankee Fan in Boston
01-09-12, 08:22 PM
The writers are allowed to vote for ten players on each ballot. That means that a vote Bill Mueller doesn't take votes away from Bagwell or Raines; the worst it does is take votes away from Don Mattingly or Larry Walker, guys who aren't getting elected anyway.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to allow ten votes; it should be cut to five, or even three. But as it stands, the tenth slot is essentially meaningless anyway. So I don't really have a problem with it if a writer wants to toss that single vote to a player whom he really appreciated for one reason or another, a little tip of the hat to someone he'd like to acknowledge without seriously thinking he's a Hall of Famer. It's the top of the ballot that actually elects Hall of Famers, and I don't see that a vote or two does even the slightest damage to the integrity of the vote.

The writers haven't been the big problem with Hall of Fame selections. Sure, they've made bad choices along the way. But far worse damage was done by the Veterans Committee, who elected a whole slew of the least deserving inductees. They're the ones who watered down the Hall.

Yeah, I realize it doesn't matter in the long run, but it's just another one of the silly games these guys play. It's going to be especially fun over the next few years as we watch them cast judgement on players from the steroid era -- after they cast a blind eye to PED use in baseball while it was happening.

Soriambi
01-09-12, 08:25 PM
The writers are allowed to vote for ten players on each ballot. That means that a vote Bill Mueller doesn't take votes away from Bagwell or Raines; the worst it does is take votes away from Don Mattingly or Larry Walker, guys who aren't getting elected anyway.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous to allow ten votes; it should be cut to five, or even three. But as it stands, the tenth slot is essentially meaningless anyway. So I don't really have a problem with it if a writer wants to toss that single vote to a player whom he really appreciated for one reason or another, a little tip of the hat to someone he'd like to acknowledge without seriously thinking he's a Hall of Famer. It's the top of the ballot that actually elects Hall of Famers, and I don't see that a vote or two does even the slightest damage to the integrity of the vote.

The writers haven't been the big problem with Hall of Fame selections. Sure, they've made bad choices along the way. But far worse damage was done by the Veterans Committee, who elected a whole slew of the least deserving inductees. They're the ones who watered down the Hall.

Agreed. On the whole, I think the writers have been pretty solid with who they've elected and not elected. Not perfect, but not bad at all. I also agree with your first point. The people who vote for a guy like Mueller don't actually think he's a HOFer. It's more of a courtesy thing, I think, so that they don't get totallly shut out. I'm looking forward to the day, though, that 75% of them decide to give a Mueller a courtesy vote.

By the way, weird that some of these guys have been out of the league for five years. Certainly doesn't feel like it.

JL25and3
01-09-12, 08:36 PM
Yeah, I realize it doesn't matter in the long run, but it's just another one of the silly games these guys play. It's going to be especially fun over the next few years as we watch them cast judgement on players from the steroid era -- after they cast a blind eye to PED use in baseball while it was happening.
I would vote for Mark McGwire.

Billy Ball 2008
01-09-12, 10:23 PM
Tim Raines with less than 50% is a travesty.

17% for Mattingly. Is that up from last year? I'm thinking it is.

Grav
01-09-12, 10:56 PM
17% for Mattingly. Is that up from last year? I'm thinking it is.

Mark McGwire and Juan Gonzalez were the only two holdovers from last year's ballot that didn't get more votes.

+24.3 Barry Larkin
+14.3 Jeff Bagwell
+13.2 Jack Morris
+12.5 Alan Trammell
+11.2 Tim Raines
+6.0 Fred McGriff
+5.3 Lee Smith
+4.2 Don Mattingly
+3.6 Edgar Martinez
+2.6 Larry Walker
+1.9 Dale Murphy
+1.6 Rafael Palmeiro
-0.3 Mark McGwire
-1.2 Juan Gonzalez

Yankeesfan924
01-10-12, 12:15 AM
Tim Raines should be in, no doubt.

And I don't feel like Barry Larkin deserves it. His stats don't overly impress me.

teknetic
01-10-12, 12:24 AM
The writers are allowed to vote for ten players on each ballot. That means that a vote Bill Mueller doesn't take votes away from Bagwell or Raines; the worst it does is take votes away from Don Mattingly or Larry Walker, guys who aren't getting elected anyway.



Someone remind me why Walker has no shot at getting elected? Yea, Coors inflated numbers and all that, but do these fossils that vote actually take that into account?

awy
01-10-12, 02:20 AM
they do. in a dumb way that involves blanket discrediting instead of careful quantification

JL25and3
01-10-12, 05:19 AM
Someone remind me why Walker has no shot at getting elected? Yea, Coors inflated numbers and all that, but do these fossils that vote actually take that into account?
Whether he should or shouldn't is a different question. My only point was that the random votes cast for guys like Bill Mueller had no effect on Walker's chances.

And I'll say again: call them fossils or disparage them in whatever other way you like, but the BBWAA has generally done a pretty good job. It's the various other committees who've made the truly terrible choices.

BronxYanks45
01-10-12, 08:49 AM
Raines should get in eventually as will Morris. But I really think Edgar deserves to be in, really solid DH

kan_t
01-10-12, 08:51 AM
Tim Raines should be in, no doubt.

And I don't feel like Barry Larkin deserves it. His stats don't overly impress me.
He's easily an all-time top 10 SS.


And I'll say again: call them fossils or disparage them in whatever other way you like, but the BBWAA has generally done a pretty good job. It's the various other committees who've made the truly terrible choices.
True. They did make some terrible choices like Pennock, Sutter, Rice, etc. But overall they did a good job.

Big_E
01-10-12, 09:00 AM
While they can vote for 10 players, the average voter selects only 5 to 6.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hall-of-fame-ballot-history.shtml

JL25and3
01-10-12, 11:59 AM
While they can vote for 10 players, the average voter selects only 5 to 6.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hall-of-fame-ballot-history.shtml
But I would still assume that the throwaway votes for guys like Mueller are tacked on at the end, without displacing genuinely deserving candidates.

Big_E
01-10-12, 12:51 PM
But I would still assume that the throwaway votes for guys like Mueller are tacked on at the end, without displacing genuinely deserving candidates.

I'm sure...if the average voter picked 9 guys or more, and Mueller and the like were getting votes, then it would be taking away from potentially more deserving guys. As it is, most voters are not agonizing between Mattingly and Williams as their 10th name.

Dave Visbeck
01-10-12, 03:53 PM
Raines should get in eventually as will Morris. But I really think Edgar deserves to be in, really solid DH

Does Morris have two more chances?

Mr. Mxylsplk
01-10-12, 03:55 PM
Does Morris have two more chances?
Yes....

NYDCYankee
01-10-12, 04:05 PM
Jeromy Burnitz got snubbed.