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Yankeeah
01-19-10, 03:49 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/01/blue-jays-sign-carlos-delgado.html


Word out of Puerto Rico is that the Blue Jays have signed free agent Carlos Delgado, according to MLB.com's Noah Coslov (via Twitter (http://twitter.com/mlbCoz/statuses/7960427699))

JavyVazquezIsSick
01-19-10, 03:51 PM
That's interesting. I guess Lind is playing the field, which really sucks.

Mark19
01-19-10, 03:52 PM
That's interesting. I guess Lind is playing the field, which really sucks.

or they are dumping Overbay, who stands a chance at having a better glove and equal bat to Delgado

THEBOSS84
01-19-10, 03:53 PM
Does anyone realize how dominant of a career this guy has had? Holy smokes.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/delgaca01.shtml

Yankeeah
01-19-10, 03:56 PM
or they are dumping Overbay, who stands a chance at having a better glove and equal bat to Delgado

I disagree. Overbay's glove will be better, but Delgado's bat will be much better. Overbay's best year with the bat would be Delgado's worst year.

Mark19
01-19-10, 04:08 PM
I disagree. Overbay's glove will be better, but Delgado's bat will be much better. Overbay's best year with the bat would be Delgado's worst year.

Delgado 2007-2009 - .835 OPS in the NL East
Overbay 2007-2009 - .775 OPS in the AL East

Overbay is also 5 years younger and not coming off of major surgery

kan_t
01-19-10, 04:11 PM
Jays' GM has shut this rumor down.

DaSh 1s
01-19-10, 06:48 PM
Phew, do not want Adam Lind in the field. Definitely would hurt his fantasy production :)

False1
01-19-10, 08:57 PM
Delgado 2007-2009 - .835 OPS in the NL East
Overbay 2007-2009 - .775 OPS in the AL East

Overbay is also 5 years younger and not coming off of major surgeryUse OPS+ to account for the ballparks and it's Delgado 117 and Overbay 105. Over his last 800 PA's Delgado's been a 129 OPS+ guy. I don't know about his ability to stay healthy/productive after surgery, but Overbay hasn't been Ripkenesque out there either missing 74 games the last 3 seasons. I don't think it's a big upgrade but I think given his ties to the franchise this wouldn't surprise me as much as you.

BronxYanks45
01-21-10, 11:17 AM
if healthy Delgado can make a big difference in a lineup

kan_t
01-21-10, 12:48 PM
Does anyone realize how dominant of a career this guy has had? Holy smokes.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/delgaca01.shtml
The sad thing is that he may not be inducted to HOF even he hit 500HR.

sweet_lou_14
01-21-10, 05:55 PM
The sad thing is that he may not be inducted to HOF even he hit 500HR.

That's sad?

500 HR should never again be an automatic ticket. Delgado is just another very good player when compared to his contemporaries. Not a HOFer.

kan_t
01-21-10, 06:57 PM
That's sad?

500 HR should never again be an automatic ticket. Delgado is just another very good player when compared to his contemporaries. Not a HOFer.
500 HR, 500 2B, 4000 TB, 1500 RBI, 1000 BB

That's HOF numbers. He is not just another good HR hitter. And besides those "steroid 500 HR hitters" (I don't think that's an issue, but that's another question and not related), which 500 HR hitters shouldn't be in the Hall?

sweet_lou_14
01-21-10, 07:57 PM
500 HR, 500 2B, 4000 TB, 1500 RBI, 1000 BB

That's HOF numbers. He is not just another good HR hitter. And besides those "steroid 500 HR hitters" (I don't think that's an issue, but that's another question and not related), which 500 HR hitters shouldn't be in the Hall?

Rafael Palmeiro has 3000 hits and 500 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Sammy Sosa has over 600 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Gary Sheffield has over 500 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Jim Thome has over 500 HRs and doesn't (yet) have any serious steroid allegations attached to his name, and yet I'm on the fence about him being in the HOF.

Fred McGriff has 493 HRs and does not have any allegations attached to his name. Nobody talks about him seriously as an HOF candidate ... why? Because of 7 home runs? He isn't a HOFer at 493 and he wouldn't be one with 7 more homers, either.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.

kan_t
01-21-10, 08:01 PM
Rafael Palmeiro has 3000 hits and 500 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Sammy Sosa has over 600 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Gary Sheffield has over 500 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Jim Thome has over 500 HRs and doesn't (yet) have any serious steroid allegations attached to his name, and yet I'm on the fence about him being in the HOF.

Fred McGriff has 493 HRs and does not have any allegations attached to his name. Nobody talks about him seriously as an HOF candidate ... why? Because of 7 home runs? He isn't a HOFer at 493 and he wouldn't be one with 7 more homers, either.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.
It seems you are a small Hall guy. I have no problem about that. We have different standards and no point to argue that. :)

sweet_lou_14
01-21-10, 08:26 PM
It seems you are a small Hall guy. I have no problem about that. We have different standards and no point to argue that. :)

I agree we shouldn't argue. :) I completely respect your opinion and also recognize that some of my thoughts on the Hall aren't shared by most people.

I think the "Fame" in "Hall of Fame" is very important. For me a player needs to be recognized in his own time as a premier player, the best in the league at his position, the player you want to build a team around. I tend to frown on HOF candidates where you have to say "I never realized how good this guy was until I went back and saw his numbers." I prefer players like George Brett and Mike Schmidt, where everyone knew they were the best 3Bs in their respective leagues for many many years.

In Delgado's case, what stands out to me is that he has hardly any black ink -- he led the league in RBI once, never in HRs or BA (traditional stats), only once in OPS / OPS+ (saber stats). He also has no MVPs (second place once), no rings, and no signature moments where you'd say "I'll never forget the time when Carlos Delgado did XYZ." That's all part of what I said above about the "Fame" in "Hall of Fame." It's why a guy like Ichiro is to me a clear HOFer even if he doesn't get his 3,000 hits, because he captured the imagination of fans across the country and around the world, and gave us a truly unique, unforgettable career we'll all remember long after he's gone.

To take another example, if Joe Mauer continues on the path he's on, he's headed for the HOF and that fact isn't going to sneak up on anybody. In some ways he's already a HOFer in our collective imagination -- though we all recognize he needs to sustain it over the course of a long career, we also recognize that this is his current trajectory.

I don't see guys like Palmeiro and Delgado and McGriff having much in common with the kind of players I mentioned above, who truly stand out among their contemporaries in terms of their impact on the game and its fans.

Hooligan Tavarez
01-21-10, 08:40 PM
I think if Delgado has his best years in Boston on New York as opposed to north of the border he would be an "awe" guy. He has tremendous career numbers: .280/.383/.546, 473 HR, and a 138 OPS+. He had a great peak and he's a player you can easily break his career in to 4 to see how good he was.

Broke in to the league
1993-1995, ages 21-23
He played sporadically and hit .194/.300/.378 in 82 games and 260 PA, 75 OPS+

Breakout year
1996, age 24
563 PA, .270/.353/.490, 112 OPS+

Steady Peak
1997-2006, ages 25-34
6429 PA, .287/.397/.571 with 371 HR, 148 OPS+

Decline
2007-2009, ages 35-37
1405 PA, .267/.347/.488, 66 HR, 117 OPS+

I know you can't tell a definite user from statistics alone, but given his career arc he doesn't look like one. I think without any link to PED usage to the only thing keeping him from being a Hall of Famer is playing in Toronto after their World Championships and having slightly inferior career and single season HR numbers compared to users.

sweet_lou_14
01-21-10, 08:45 PM
Well, for what it's worth, even at 37 I don't really want Delgado back in the division. He's a great player.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-21-10, 08:47 PM
What do Delgado's numbers have to do with a return to the Jays? HMMMM???

That being said, I think Delgado is not only the best hitting Puerto Rican ever, but his numbers are Hall of Fame worthy. This is just my opinion. :D

The only thing is he's never had a really good run with the Mets or Jays so his play on the field isn't as memorable as others in the Hall. sweet lou pretty much summed it up. He's not famous enough.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-21-10, 08:50 PM
Well, for what it's worth, even at 37 I don't really want Delgado back in the division. He's a great player.

I second that. Not only do I not want him to beat us with his bat, but I don't want to see him struggle with injury either. He's looked older than he is the past couple of seasons.

Panamaniac42
01-21-10, 09:14 PM
That being said, I think Delgado is not only the best hitting Puerto Rican ever,

Who else is in the discussion...Clemente, Bernie...?

HelloNewman
01-21-10, 09:17 PM
If Carlos Delgado were of British descent, his name would be Charlie Thin.

DontHateOnNumber2
01-21-10, 09:34 PM
Who else is in the discussion...Clemente, Bernie...?

I was thinking of Roberto, but I personally have never seen him play. I've seen classic Pirates games on MLBN but that's all, and Bernie of course, but in terms of numbers I put Delgado in the HOF. Bernie has proven his worth, and though I feel he'll get a plaque I don't think he get voted into Cooperstown or get his number retired. Clemente is the same deal as Bernie, although he made it to the biggest stage and helped deliver the bling along with garnering his individual awards. I think that, and his seemingly rapid decline over the past 3 years is why people will look over Delgado.

Principessa21
01-21-10, 11:48 PM
Who else is in the discussion...Clemente, Bernie...?
Juan Gonzalez, Jorge, Beltran, Orlando Cepeda, Javy Lopez, Pudge Rodriguez, Roberto Alomar...

Not saying there's necessarily anyone else better than Delgado's been, but those are names I'd include in the discussion.

teknetic
01-22-10, 12:33 AM
Rafael Palmeiro has 3000 hits and 500 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Sammy Sosa has over 600 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Gary Sheffield has over 500 HRs and yet, even if he were not a steroid user, I do not believe he belongs in the HOF.

Jim Thome has over 500 HRs and doesn't (yet) have any serious steroid allegations attached to his name, and yet I'm on the fence about him being in the HOF.

Fred McGriff has 493 HRs and does not have any allegations attached to his name. Nobody talks about him seriously as an HOF candidate ... why? Because of 7 home runs? He isn't a HOFer at 493 and he wouldn't be one with 7 more homers, either.

Just a few examples off the top of my head.

How are you on the fence regarding Thome?

From 1995-2007 (13 years) he posted a .993 OPS, 154 OPS+

Hell, I didn't even list the two years prior to '95 and 2008 (131, 126, 123 OPS+) because they were merely very good and not "great." That's a ridiculous stretch of being a dominant offensive force, he gets my vote pretty easily.

Sheffield is also similar. 14 season stretch, .962/153+ topped 160+ five times.

sweet_lou_14
01-22-10, 06:54 AM
How are you on the fence regarding Thome?

I've said many times that Jim Thome is my all-time favorite player who never wore pinstripes. I can definitely see him in the HOF -- he doesn't have a team for 2010 yet but if gets to be somebody's full-time DH for a year-plus, he has a shot at 600 HRs. I guess I said I was on the fence for similar reasons to Delgado -- not much black ink, no MVPs, no rings, never clearly the best at his position. (Yes, I'm tough on 1Bs in an extremely offense-oriented era where every team had a 1B who could mash.)

But if he makes it, I'll be very happy for him. I love the guy.

DaSh 1s
01-22-10, 07:36 AM
In Delgado's case, what stands out to me is that he has hardly any black ink -- he led the league in RBI once, never in HRs or BA (traditional stats), only once in OPS / OPS+ (saber stats). He also has no MVPs (second place once), .

He woulda won that MVP, if a certain somebody wasn't shooting up that year :)