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sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 05:51 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

YanksFan1992
12-17-08, 05:52 PM
Now I know why people hate Yankees fans so much.

CallOfTheCrow
12-17-08, 05:53 PM
We get it, you hate Cashman. Give it up already.

Yankeeah
12-17-08, 05:56 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

You do screw up a lot. You meant to write CC and Burnett (and maybe even Manny).

You're fired.

THEBOSS84
12-17-08, 05:57 PM
Sabermet bashing aside, he does have a valid point.

Tifoso
12-17-08, 05:58 PM
CC+AJ > Tex

CC+AJ+Manny>>>>Tex

NYYDragoon
12-17-08, 05:59 PM
Sabermet bashing aside, he does have a valid point.After landing CC and (*gag*) Burnett, I wouldn't put Cashman's name in the same sentence as "fail". Not bidding for Tex would be a mistake, but I'm not going to hold it against it him and disregard the rest of the offseason.

StatenIslandYankee
12-17-08, 05:59 PM
*sigh*

Mark19
12-17-08, 05:59 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

Hey dude, reality is your friend

It was Steinbrenner who chose Sheff over Vlad and insisted we get Randy Johnson. He only relinquished control three years ago.

Cashman's biggest mistakes were probably the Pavano and Igawa debacles.

We likely won't sign Manny but we already have the two best pitchers on the market making their debut in pinstripes tomorrow afternoon.

It is a shame we likely won't sign Teixeira but I am confident he'll find a way to bulk up our offense. Besides, you have to at least entertain the possibility that this stud first basemen could turn out like the last two 1Bs who signed deals over $100 million -- Jason Giambi and Todd Helton.

Cashman has made his fair share of mistakes but let's not judge him before the offseason is over.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:00 PM
You do screw up a lot. You meant to write CC and Burnett (and maybe even Manny).

You're fired.
No what I meant was it may even be a mistake to chose CC over Tex.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:00 PM
CC+AJ > Tex

CC+AJ+Manny>>>>Tex

CC + Tex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

b_joseph
12-17-08, 06:01 PM
Reminds me of the child who got 2 of the 3 things he wanted for Christmas. But then throws a tantrum because he didnt get the other gift.


Come on brother.

Mark19
12-17-08, 06:01 PM
If certain people could run the Yankees for an offseason, we would have a payroll of $400 million, we'd have guys making $15 million rotting on the bench and no team would be willing to deal with us because they'd be sick of the "Hideki Matsui and Shelley Duncan for Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee!!!!111!!" proposals.

Yankeeah
12-17-08, 06:02 PM
Sabermet bashing aside, he does have a valid point.

Vazquez was supposed to be the next Pedro when we traded for him. Brown had a 169 ERA the year before we traded for him (and a 110 his first season with us) and Sheff punnished the ball and played hurt with us all 2004. He was a top 3 MVP candidate. Vlad's injury history was in serious question heading into the offseason.

RJ was supposed to be the stopper we didn't have in 2004. He had a 177 ERA+ in 2004. Wright was a Steinbrenner signing, wasn't it?

I love Texeria. I always have and always will. I think him and CC would have been too many long term big money deals for this team and they had to make a choice. They went with pitching because it's what killed us last year.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:02 PM
Hey dude, reality is your friend

It was Steinbrenner who chose Sheff over Vlad and insisted we get Randy Johnson. He only relinquished control three years ago.

Cashman's biggest mistakes were probably the Pavano and Igawa debacles.

We likely won't sign Manny but we already have the two best pitchers on the market making their debut in pinstripes tomorrow afternoon.

It is a shame we likely won't sign Teixeira but I am confident he'll find a way to bulk up our offense. Besides, you have to at least entertain the possibility that this stud first basemen could turn out like the last two 1Bs who signed deals over $100 million -- Jason Giambi and Todd Helton.

Cashman has made his fair share of mistakes but let's not judge him before the offseason is over.
What bat is Cash going to add if it isnt Tex or Manny ? Im sorry but this guy has done nothing but make mistakes year after year. Its like hes a millionaire in the 99 cent store and he still cant chose the right things to buy.

R.V.47
12-17-08, 06:03 PM
No what I meant was it may even be a mistake to chose CC over Tex.

I disagree, the number one need for this team was pitching. Not to say Tex is not important but we had to sure up the rotation first. Having Tex with the likes of Ian Kennedy and Dan Giese on the mound wouldnt do us much good.

NYYDragoon
12-17-08, 06:03 PM
CC + Tex >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What are you comparing that to? DOES NOT COMPUTE.


If certain people could run the Yankees for an offseason, we would have a payroll of $400 million, we'd have guys making $15 million rotting on the bench and no team would be willing to deal with us because they'd be sick of the "Hideki Matsui and Shelley Duncan for Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee!!!!111!!" proposals.I laughed.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:04 PM
Reminds me of the child who got 2 of the 3 things he wanted for Christmas. But then throws a tantrum because he didnt get the other gift.


Come on brother.
No because I wanted Tex over AJ by a lot.

Also I hate the argument of "lets just punt a position because you cant have all stars at every position" Why the hell not ? Did you actually look at how the Yankees dynastys of the past were built ? We had guys on the bench in the 50s the couldve started on most teams. There is absolutly no reason why the Yanks cant get Tex.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:05 PM
What are you comparing that to? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

I laughed.
Im comparing it to any combination you can think of. In other words CC + Tex trumps any other combo of players from this offseason.

Yankeeah
12-17-08, 06:06 PM
We had guys on the bench in the 50s the couldve started on most teams. There is absolutly no reason why the Yanks cant get Tex.

Did you seriously just try and compare assembling a team int he 50's to 2008? You cannot possibly compare the two

Slioman
12-17-08, 06:06 PM
Im comparing it to any combination you can think of. In other words CC + Tex trumps any other combo of players from this offseason.

Debatable. A healthy Burnett or Sheets is very valuable. In terms of actual value, Tex and CC are extremely similar. If you wanted the highest risk/reward situation for this free agency, I would have signed both Burnett, Sheets, and Tex.

ppa79
12-17-08, 06:07 PM
No because I wanted Tex over AJ by a lot.

Also I hate the argument of "lets just punt a position because you cant have all stars at every position" Why the hell not ? Did you actually look at how the Yankees dynastys of the past were built ? We had guys on the bench in the 50s the couldve started on most teams. There is absolutly no reason why the Yanks cant get Tex.

Why do you say its Cash's fault that we didn't get Vlad. Cash wanted Vlad. It was Steinbrenner who had dinner with Shef and Gooden and signed him to a contract.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:08 PM
Also there seems to be this idea that our offense will be fine. Our offesne is worse then last year and it wasnt too good last year. You have guys penciling in Matsui and Posada to have seasons like when they were in their prime. Im sorry but some of you need a wake up call. We need a bat desperatly.

Tifoso
12-17-08, 06:08 PM
Did you seriously just try and compare assembling a team int he 50's to 2008? You cannot possibly compare the two

Awesome players made $30,000. Even adjusted for inflation, that's what? $600,000?

b_joseph
12-17-08, 06:10 PM
No because I wanted Tex over AJ by a lot.

Also I hate the argument of "lets just punt a position because you cant have all stars at every position" Why the hell not ? Did you actually look at how the Yankees dynastys of the past were built ? We had guys on the bench in the 50s the couldve started on most teams. There is absolutly no reason why the Yanks cant get Tex.The reason I would choose is that every team has a limit.

You cant commit 320 million to 2 players in one off season. It just cant happen.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:10 PM
My point was we do have enough money to sign Tex so why not do it ?

NYYDragoon
12-17-08, 06:11 PM
Also there seems to be this idea that our offense will be fine. Our offesne is worse then last year and it wasnt too good last year. You have guys penciling in Matsui and Posada to have seasons like when they were in their prime. Im sorry but some of you need a wake up call. We need a bat desperatly.I'm hoping, and I think this is a rational hope, that last season was a fluke sparked by bad pitching. Our lineup on paper isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:11 PM
The reason I would choose is that every team has a limit.

You cant commit 320 million to 2 players in one off season. It just cant happen. Says who ?

Yankeeah
12-17-08, 06:11 PM
My point was we do have enough money to sign Tex so why not do it ?

How do you know that?

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:12 PM
I'm hoping, and I think this is a rational hope, that last season was a fluke sparked by bad pitching. Our lineup on paper isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.
Yes but the problem is looking at it on paper. Like I said you see the name Matsui or Posada and you think good production but can you count on that when both are coming off major injuries ?

dabomb2045
12-17-08, 06:12 PM
I will say this....I'd much rather have signed CC and Tex...then CC and Burnett. However, if you asked me would I'd rather have CC-Tex or CC-AJ-Manny....that's one I'd have to think about.

So if Cash gets us Manny, I'm ok with it. However, if he doesnt add a big bat an address the average at best lineup we have now...then he's done a bad job.

NYYDragoon
12-17-08, 06:13 PM
Yes but the problem is looking at it on paper. Like I said you see the name Matsui or Posada and you think good production but can you count on that when both are coming off major injuries ?I don't see Posada nosediving, and same with Matsui. If anything, my main concern is getting some protection for Arod, which right now is seriously lacking. But I still value having a reliable rotation over that.

b_joseph
12-17-08, 06:13 PM
Says who ?Good financial sense. Thats who.

Even the Yankees have a limit.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:14 PM
How do you know that?
80 mill coming off the books from last year.

CC- 23 mill
AJ= 16.5 mill
Marte= I forget like 4 ?? Corret me if Im way off
Swisher = What is his salary like 12 mill ?

so thats like 55 mill

Seems to me we have plenty left for Tex.

Yankeeah
12-17-08, 06:15 PM
80 mill coming off the books from last year.

CC- 23 mill
AJ= 16.5 mill
Marte= I forget like 4 ?? Corret me if Im way off
Swisher = What is his salary like 12 mill ?

so thats like 55 mill

Seems to me we have plenty left for Tex.

They want to lower payroll, they've said it consistently. Wang is going to get a big raise soon, Joba too.

jughead
12-17-08, 06:15 PM
I agree with the OP. For example, I think Beltran was the biggest non-signing that the Yankees obviously should have made. Instead we got Damon and a hole in CF this year.

Tex should have been the #1 priority this off-season. Why not pay the big bucks for the good player when he comes on the market instead of waiting till you desperately need a guy then shelling out almost as much for a mediocre, 35 year old version?

At least he got Sabathia, though I'd still put that due to failure to get Santana (although obviously there are extenuating circumstances there).

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:16 PM
They want to lower payroll, they've said it consistently. Wang is going to get a big raise soon, Joba too.
And we will have more guys coming off the books by that time. Damon and Matsui for one thing.

Tifoso
12-17-08, 06:16 PM
I agree with the OP. For example, I think Beltran was the biggest non-signing that the Yankees obviously should have made. Instead we got Damon and a hole in CF this year.

Tex should have been the #1 priority this off-season. Why not pay the big bucks for the good player when he comes on the market instead of waiting till you desperately need a guy then shelling out almost as much for a mediocre, 35 year old version?

Pitching was #1, and should have been, IMHO ;)

dabomb2045
12-17-08, 06:16 PM
I'm hoping, and I think this is a rational hope, that last season was a fluke sparked by bad pitching. Our lineup on paper isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination.

As of right now, I dont believe this lineup is championship caliber. We scored 780 runs last year AND as of now we are minus Abreu and Giambi. Who's protecting ARod? Who knows what to expect from Jorge or Matsui? or even Cano? It could very well be that we've seen the best of Po and Matsui, and Cano is such a wild-card that you cant rely on him yet.

We need another big bat. I want Manny. I want Tex but at this point, I understand the reasons for it not happening. However, there is no excuse for not signing Manny. I dont care about his attitude or whatever--we need the big bat behind Alex if we have any designs on 2009 being a championship season.

YanksFan1992
12-17-08, 06:17 PM
They want to lower payroll, they've said it consistently. Wang is going to get a big raise soon, Joba too.
I've heard that we want to get to around 200 million for our payroll, which leaves us about 20 million to spend.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:19 PM
Lets look at the lineup

1b- Swisher and his .219 avg last year and his obp wasnt great either.
2b- Cano- went from the best offensive second baseman to the worst. Who knows what he gives you next year ?
ss- Jeter- should be good but another year older and in decline
3B Arod- the only sure thing
lf- Damon- good in 06, bad in 07, good in 08, 09 ??
cf- assuming this is cameron(if not its even worse) a SO machine
rf- Nady- a platoon player coming off a career year
c- Posada- coming off major injury
Dh - Matsui- coming off major injury

Im sorry but I have no confidence in that lineup

apalradio
12-17-08, 06:22 PM
Having Manny as a big bat to protect ARod is fine and makes sufficient sense. However, Tex would be a better fit because a) we do need a first baseman (Swisher can play left), b) our defense is horrible as it is (Manny would make it even worse), and c) Tex is a big bat too, as well as a switch hitter, as well as a defensive upgrade (which Swisher would also be in left). I just don't understand why we're seeming to pass on the best position player on the market yet again!

Mark19
12-17-08, 06:24 PM
What bat is Cash going to add if it isnt Tex or Manny ? Im sorry but this guy has done nothing but make mistakes year after year. Its like hes a millionaire in the 99 cent store and he still cant chose the right things to buy.

Three simple ingredients will result in a 2009 lineup with substantially better production than the 2008 version:

-Posada, Swisher, Cano and Matsui provide a mere 80% of their production from 2007
-We acquire a young, versatile righty to platoon center field with Gardner
-Juan Miranda brings his ungodly numbers against RHP to the bench

Our biggest offensive weakness in 2008 was the lack of balance and depth. We played sub-.500 baseball against southpaws and we got less than 10 RBIs off our bench for the entire season.

Give this team some youth, health and a few talented role players and you'll have one of the best offenses in the league.

YankeePride1967
12-17-08, 06:24 PM
I think the premise of the threads assumes something that is far from a definite. That the Yanks don't sign Tex or Ramirez. Or anyone for that matter.

NelsonMuntz
12-17-08, 06:25 PM
Why do you say its Cash's fault that we didn't get Vlad. Cash wanted Vlad. It was Steinbrenner who had dinner with Shef and Gooden and signed him to a contract.
I noticed he never responded to this post. I'm still trying to figure out why he is blaming Cashman for this. I'm also fairly certain the decision to focus on RJ over Beltran was made at a higher level than Cashman's.

Abe Frohman
12-17-08, 06:25 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

Dude ... CC, AJ, and probably Manny is an AMAZING offseason IMHO. Manny does more for our team than Tex does. Hes only a 1st baseman.

NelsonMuntz
12-17-08, 06:26 PM
Lets look at the lineup

1b- Swisher and his .219 avg last year and his obp wasnt great either.
2b- Cano- went from the best offensive second baseman to the worst. Who knows what he gives you next year ?
ss- Jeter- should be good but another year older and in decline
3B Arod- the only sure thing
lf- Damon- good in 06, bad in 07, good in 08, 09 ??
cf- assuming this is cameron(if not its even worse) a SO machine
rf- Nady- a platoon player coming off a career year
c- Posada- coming off major injury
Dh - Matsui- coming off major injury

Im sorry but I have no confidence in that lineup
Now this I actually agree with. This lineup does not inspire a lot of confidence.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 06:27 PM
I noticed he never responded to this post. I'm still trying to figure out why he is blaming Cashman for this. I'm also fairly certain the decision to focus on RJ over Beltran was made at a higher level than Cashman's.
Cash was the gm as far as Im concerned. If he doesnt get blame for this then why should he get credit for inheriting the dynasty team that he had zero to do with building ?

Besides hes had full control the past 2 years and made mistake after mistake.

dabomb2045
12-17-08, 06:28 PM
Now this I actually agree with. This lineup does not inspire a lot of confidence.

Which is why Tex or Manny HAVE to be signed. I dont see how anyone can feel that we can win a ring in 2009 with that lineup.

Mark19
12-17-08, 06:29 PM
Cash was the gm as far as Im concerned. If he doesnt get blame for this then why should he get credit for inheriting the dynasty team that he had zero to do with building ?

Besides hes had full control the past 2 years and made mistake after mistake.

I guess we shouldn't have brought back Mussina, Pettitte, Posada, Rivera or A-Rod. I also suspect we should have kept Scott Proctor, Gary Sheffield and Randy Johnson. Also, signing a chump like C.C. Sabathia really was terrible.

JavyVazquezIsSick
12-17-08, 06:30 PM
http://mjsmartypants.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/player-haters-ball.jpg?w=420&h=280

Yankee Tripper
12-17-08, 06:30 PM
Lets look at the lineup

1b- Swisher and his .219 avg last year and his obp wasnt great either.
2b- Cano- went from the best offensive second baseman to the worst. Who knows what he gives you next year ?
ss- Jeter- should be good but another year older and in decline
3B Arod- the only sure thing
lf- Damon- good in 06, bad in 07, good in 08, 09 ??
cf- assuming this is cameron(if not its even worse) a SO machine
rf- Nady- a platoon player coming off a career year
c- Posada- coming off major injury
Dh - Matsui- coming off major injury

Im sorry but I have no confidence in that lineup

It isn't as bad as you like to think

Position – OPS+ (2008 / Career)

LF-Damon (118 / 103)
SS– Jeter (102 / 120)
DH– Matsui (108 / 123)
3B- A-rod (150 / 147)
C- Posada (103 / 124)
RF– Nady (128 / 108) – 105 with NYY in 2008
2B– Cano (86 / 109)
1B– Swisher (92 / 112)
CF– Gardner (53 / 53) – Cameron-R (110 / 106)

Is it prefect, no. Is it the Padres or Giants, hell no.

MoRivera42akaGod
12-17-08, 06:30 PM
Lets look at the lineup

1b- Swisher and his .219 avg last year and his obp wasnt great either.
2b- Cano- went from the best offensive second baseman to the worst. Who knows what he gives you next year ?
ss- Jeter- should be good but another year older and in decline
3B Arod- the only sure thing
lf- Damon- good in 06, bad in 07, good in 08, 09 ??
cf- assuming this is cameron(if not its even worse) a SO machine
rf- Nady- a platoon player coming off a career year
c- Posada- coming off major injury
Dh - Matsui- coming off major injury

Im sorry but I have no confidence in that lineup

1b - Swisher our 9 hitter, who opsed 800+ for two years before being traded and forced to play center field for ozzie guillen.
2b - Cano batted 307 after the allstar break last year.
SS - Jeter Lock for .300 avg, .380 obp
3b - Arod Top fifteen (first) hitter in baseball
lf - Damon see Jeter
cf - Our 8 hitter
rf - A question mark but I think he'll produce solidly.
c - Posada should bounce back a year off was probably good for him at his age anyway
dh - matsui ex slugger with knee problems, we'll see.

yanksphan
12-17-08, 06:34 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

Following your logic since you've been here - isn't it the media that prevented Cashman from signing Tex?

Jace
12-17-08, 06:43 PM
I just want to make sure I assume correctly when i think that theres no actual news behind all the bitching, right

Bostonsfavson
12-17-08, 06:44 PM
Dude ... CC, AJ, and probably Manny is an AMAZING offseason IMHO. Manny does more for our team than Tex does. Hes only a 1st baseman.


Probably Manny? How do you figure? Plus, Manny may do more for our team next year, but over five or more years I'll take Tex, no question. It's not looking good as far as signing Tex is concerned, and I think that's a big mistake.

Tifoso
12-17-08, 06:45 PM
Tex, .


Nitpicking, maybe, but shouldn't his nickname be Tesh?

teknetic
12-17-08, 06:46 PM
Cash was the gm as far as Im concerned. If he doesnt get blame for this then why should he get credit for inheriting the dynasty team that he had zero to do with building ?

Besides hes had full control the past 2 years and made mistake after mistake.

What mistake after mistake has he made since gaining full control? Igawa?

Must be a joy being such a negative nancy all the time.

Buzah!
12-17-08, 06:54 PM
George Steinbrenner signed Sheff. Cashman wanted Vlad.

CallOfTheCrow
12-17-08, 06:58 PM
George Steinbrenner signed Sheff. Cashman wanted Vlad.

There's no use. He's been compaining about Cashman signing Sheffield over Vlad since last season even when it's known that Stein wanted Sheff.

JeffWeaverFan
12-17-08, 06:58 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.
You have to have some of your facts right here.

Cashman wanted Vlad instead of Sheff but George overruled him.

It was RJ over Beltran, and I'm not sure if that was Cashman or not Cashman. Nor do you. What we do know is there was a meeting and a vote, and RJ was ridiculously voted for. I will say that anyone that thought that was a good move should have been fired on the spot.

This year, it's CC over Tex. The Yankees didn't want to give out 2 150+ million contracts out. It was going to be one or the other.

CallOfTheCrow
12-17-08, 06:59 PM
Cash signs Tex & not Sabathia...there would have been this same thread carving up Cashman for not getting the ace.

JeffWeaverFan
12-17-08, 07:00 PM
No because I wanted Tex over AJ by a lot.
Tex's total contract is going to be about 2.5 times more than Burnett's. It was always CC vs. Tex.

JeffWeaverFan
12-17-08, 07:02 PM
80 mill coming off the books from last year.

CC- 23 mill
AJ= 16.5 mill
Marte= I forget like 4 ?? Corret me if Im way off
Swisher = What is his salary like 12 mill ?

so thats like 55 mill

Seems to me we have plenty left for Tex.
It's not just about this year. It's about future guaranteed money. And you aren't adding in arbitration bonuses or A-Rod's $5M increase in his salary.

Art Vanderlay
12-17-08, 07:10 PM
Sabermet Prospectus is partially correct. Passing on a premium position player in his prime for the second time in the last few years is indeed a failure. Especially when we had a real need at those positions (CF and 1B). However I disagree that its a Cashman failure, I believe its an organizational failure. As I stated in the Texiera thread, passing on Beltran and Texiera underscores what a terrible job the front office has done in making effecient use of their resources. They are paying the price for neglecting the farm system for close to a decade and for the god awful job they have done in negotiating contracts in recent years.

Mark19
12-17-08, 07:10 PM
It's not just about this year. It's about future guaranteed money. And you aren't adding in arbitration bonuses or A-Rod's $5M increase in his salary.

The buy-outs for Giambi and Pavano add another chunk

We really don't have much cash in the bank if we want to stay under $200 million.

Buzah!
12-17-08, 07:11 PM
The Yanks have done quite a bit on offense since 1997, but one thing that is true is the following: the Yanks have not made it to the WS when their team ERA has been any lower that 3rd in the AL. That has finally been addressed.

Buzah!
12-17-08, 07:11 PM
The buy-outs for Giambi and Pavano add another chunk

We really don't have much cash in the bank if we want to stay under $200 million.There's also no point in staying under 200M when opening a new stadium.

Mark19
12-17-08, 07:16 PM
There's also no point in staying under 200M when opening a new stadium.

Right, but there is a sense that the organization has been trying to stabilize payroll for a few years now. No point in going over the top if you're just going to be taking playing time away from someone you are already paying to be a starter.

Tifoso
12-17-08, 07:19 PM
The Yanks have done quite a bit on offense since 1997, but one thing that is true is the following: the Yanks have not made it to the WS when their team ERA has been any lower that 3rd in the AL. That has finally been addressed.

Cool info, thanks!

ArodEra
12-17-08, 07:28 PM
George Steinbrenner signed Sheff. Cashman wanted Vlad.

Believe it or not, Vlad AND his mother (who I believe he lived with at the time) gave every indication that they wanted no part of NY or the Yankees. Only when offers weren't coming in as expected did Vlad's agent say that Vlad wouldn't mind playing in NY.

In retrospect, if we had signed Vlad, today we'd have a player with a broken back who's in decline. Sheff also gave us a couple of incredible offensive years, so the decision wasn't too tragic.

NYYFAN
12-17-08, 07:33 PM
Beltran hasn't been a ball of fire for the Mets either...

bmxstreetrider86
12-17-08, 07:34 PM
sigh, we are not signing a 1B to an 8-10 year contract, yea cash is a real dope




if you want something to complain about in regards to brian cashman, it should be how hard he makes to look finding a 1B, since just about everyone has one that can hit sufficiently

nnysiny
12-17-08, 07:38 PM
Beltran hasn't been a ball of fire for the Mets either...
he wouldve been making $14.3 AAV, made the defense better, and would be a great switch hitter to put in between Jeter and ARod. he would have been well worth it

Yankees1962
12-17-08, 07:39 PM
Which is why Tex or Manny HAVE to be signed. I dont see how anyone can feel that we can win a ring in 2009 with that lineup.
Teams with lesser lineups won in recent years, but they had some great pitching to make up the difference.

NYYFAN
12-17-08, 07:41 PM
he wouldve been making $14.3 AAV, made the defense better, and would be a great switch hitter to put in between Jeter and ARod. he would have been well worth it

Doesn't change the fact he hasn't lived up to his billing...

The prices you quote were top dollar at that time...

I can still see him taking that 12-6 curve to St Louis for the win...:D

Met fans spend most of their time booing him...

Yankees1962
12-17-08, 07:44 PM
You have to have some of your facts right here.

Cashman wanted Vlad instead of Sheff but George overruled him.

It was RJ over Beltran, and I'm not sure if that was Cashman or not Cashman. Nor do you. What we do know is there was a meeting and a vote, and RJ was ridiculously voted for. I will say that anyone that thought that was a good move should have been fired on the spot.

This year, it's CC over Tex. The Yankees didn't want to give out 2 150+ million contracts out. It was going to be one or the other.
Cashman didn't negotiate the RJ trade because he couldn't come to an agreement with them, thus Levine finished those trade negotiations. IMO, I don't think Cashman wanted to do that trade.

b_joseph
12-17-08, 07:44 PM
Teams with lesser lineups won in recent years.Yep...2005 Chicago W/S for example.

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:47 PM
The starter of this thread does have a good point: Cashman and the Yankees front office, in my opinion, have failed. And I'm more and more concerned about the direction they are going:

1. They are NOT getting younger. - If they do sign Pettitte and trade for Cameron the average age will be 33. (older if they sign Manny & trade Nady)

2. They are NOT getting more athletic (see #1)

3. They are NOT gaining more roster flexibility (many long contracts, few guys with options)

4. They are signing guys with ridiculously long contracts (see table below)

5. They're payroll is NOT getting cheaper (see table below)

I stole this from River Ave. Blues http://riveraveblues.com/ and I think it speaks for itself.

Yankees Future Payroll
2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
A-Rod 32 32 31 29 28 25 21 20 20
Sabathia 23* 23* 23* 23# 23# 23# 23#
Burnett 16.5* 16.5* 16.5* 16.5* 16.5*
Cano 6 9 10 14@ 15@
Marte 3.75 4 4 4@
Swish 5.3 6.75 9 10.25@
Jorge 13.1 13.1 13.1
Jeter 20 21
Mo 15 15
Damon 13
Matsui 13
Molina 1
Wang > 4
Nady > 3.3
Burney > .85
~Total 170 140 107 95 82.5 48 44 20 20

Now many people are saying that with Matsui and Damon leaving after next year, there will be more payroll flexibility. The Yankees have not shown me that they are willing to end those contracts and not pick up long, expensive contracts that are extremely risky. Hell, next year's FO list isn't that great (Holiday is good, but will be overpriced and for too many years).

I'm really worried about where things are going.


EDIT: I do love the CC siging (but not the years) and I think AJ is great (but again, years and risk).

bcom33
12-17-08, 07:49 PM
The starter of this thread does have a good point: Cashman and the Yankees front office, in my opinion, have failed. And I'm more and more concerned about the direction they are going:

1. They are NOT getting younger. - If they do sign Pettitte and trade for Cameron the average age will be 33. (older if they sign Manny & trade Nady)

2. They are NOT getting more athletic (see #1)

3. They are NOT gaining more roster flexibility (many long contracts, few guys with options)

4. They are signing guys with ridiculously long contracts (see table below)

5. They're payroll is NOT getting cheaper (see table below)

I stole this from River Ave. Blues http://riveraveblues.com/ and I think it speaks for itself.

Yankees Future Payroll
2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
A-Rod 32 32 31 29 28 25 21 20 20
Sabathia 23* 23* 23* 23# 23# 23# 23#
Burnett 16.5* 16.5* 16.5* 16.5* 16.5*
Cano 6 9 10 14@ 15@
Marte 3.75 4 4 4@
Swish 5.3 6.75 9 10.25@
Jorge 13.1 13.1 13.1
Jeter 20 21
Mo 15 15
Damon 13
Matsui 13
Molina 1
Wang > 4
Nady > 3.3
Burney > .85
~Total 170 140 107 95 82.5 48 44 20 20

Now many people are saying that with Matsui and Damon leaving after next year, there will be more payroll flexibility. The Yankees have not shown me that they are willing to end those contracts and not pick up long, expensive contracts that are extremely risky. Hell, next year's FO list isn't that great (Holiday is good, but will be overpriced and for too many years).

I'm really worried about where things are going.

Yes, yes, yes...BUT ARE THEY A BETTER TEAM as currently constructed than last year? HELL YES.

b_joseph
12-17-08, 07:49 PM
Pogie..you can only get younger if there are guys that are ready to make the step up from the Farm system.

So until that happens, the team will always be ''veteran''.

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:51 PM
Both of you are correct, but shouldn't the Yanks be more patient then?

Yankees13
12-17-08, 07:52 PM
It is pretty disturbing how a team with by far the highest payroll always manages to avoid acquiring elite talent at positions of need. Between trading for Alex Rodriguez and signing CC Sabathia, a span of nearly 5 years, we didn't acquire one elite player.

Yankees1962
12-17-08, 07:53 PM
Both of you are correct, but shouldn't the Yanks be more patient then?
Unlike any other teams, the fanbase and media won't allow the Yankees to be patient especially with a new stadium opening in 2009.

b_joseph
12-17-08, 07:53 PM
Both of you are correct, but shouldn't the Yanks be more patient then?No because this team has to compete year in and year out.

Realistically, the team wont get younger and athletic until about 2011. At best.

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:53 PM
It is pretty disturbing how a team with by far the highest payroll always manages to avoid acquiring elite talent at positions of need. Between trading for Alex Rodriguez and signing CC Sabathia, a span of nearly 5 years, we didn't acquire one elite player.

Not sure I agree. I believe both are fantastic players and will be remember (for their production) long after we are all gone.

CallOfTheCrow
12-17-08, 07:54 PM
It is pretty disturbing how a team with by far the highest payroll always manages to avoid acquiring elite talent at positions of need. Between trading for Alex Rodriguez and signing CC Sabathia, a span of nearly 5 years, we didn't acquire one elite player.

How often do elite players become available without mortgaging the farm system?

Vazquez
12-17-08, 07:54 PM
It is pretty disturbing how a team with by far the highest payroll always manages to avoid acquiring elite talent at positions of need. Between trading for Alex Rodriguez and signing CC Sabathia, a span of nearly 5 years, we didn't acquire one elite player.

However, we did resign the core of our team...

b_joseph
12-17-08, 07:55 PM
It is pretty disturbing how a team with by far the highest payroll always manages to avoid acquiring elite talent at positions of need. Between trading for Alex Rodriguez and signing CC Sabathia, a span of nearly 5 years, we didn't acquire one elite player.Abreu and Damon are elite offensive talents.

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:55 PM
Unlike any other teams, the fanbase and media won't allow the Yankees to be patient especially with a new stadium opening in 2009.

Is this true about the fanbase? Was(is) there a major outcry to win it all this year? I think I hear more about building a dynasty (maybe that is just from the intelligent members of this forum).

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:56 PM
Not sure I agree. I believe both are fantastic players and will be remember (for their production) long after we are all gone.

Oops! I get it now BETWEEN, as in besides. My bad.

Yankees13
12-17-08, 07:56 PM
Not sure I agree. I believe both are fantastic players and will be remember (for their production) long after we are all gone.
Huh? I used A-Rod and CC as bookends for the time period when we didn't acquire one elite player. They're both great players.

Yankees1962
12-17-08, 07:57 PM
Is this true about the fanbase? Was(is) there a major outcry to win it all this year? I think I hear more about building a dynasty (maybe that is just from the intelligent members of this forum).
I guess you didn't read this forum in October then?

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:58 PM
I guess you didn't read this forum in October then?

That bad, huh? I try to stay away from some the overly negative stuff.

groovitude
12-17-08, 07:58 PM
Teams with lesser lineups won in recent years.

Yankees' 2008 OPS: .769.
Phillies' 2008 OPS: .770.
Rays' 2008 OPS: .762.

Our offense from last year lines up about right with the two World Series teams from this past year.

The difference is in the pitching:

Yankee's ERA: 4.28.
Phillies' 2008 ERA: 3.88.
Rays' 2008 ERA: 3.82.

Therefore, if we maintain our offensive output (and we should probably get better if Matsui and Posada return to some semblance of their previous form) and improve our pitching (like we did with Burnett and Sabathia), we should be legitimate World Series contenders.

Pogie
12-17-08, 07:58 PM
Huh? I used A-Rod and CC as bookends for the time period when we didn't acquire one elite player. They're both great players.

Yeah, I figured it out probably while you were writing this. I'm a dummy.

Yankees1962
12-17-08, 07:59 PM
Is this true about the fanbase? Was(is) there a major outcry to win it all this year? I think I hear more about building a dynasty (maybe that is just from the intelligent members of this forum).
Another thing, judging by what's been posted here about our young players, I feel Yankee fans have no patience with young players that struggle at first. Some of the things posted here about Hughes, Kennedy and Gardner for instance was indicative of why I came to that opinion.

Pogie
12-17-08, 08:01 PM
Another thing, judging by what's been posted here about our young players, I feel Yankee fans have no patience with young players that struggle at first. Some of the things posted here about Hughes, Kennedy and Gardner for instance was indicative of why I came to that opinion.

And people beat the crap out of my boy, Melky. I mean he never projected at being more than a average outfielder. I think people expected him to be and Allstar.

DaSh 1s
12-17-08, 08:03 PM
What a tard, yes lets just sign CC and Teix... then our rotation would just be CC, Wang, ?, ?, Joba.


awesome baseball decisions.


YOU NEED ONLY ONE RUN TO WIN A BASEBALL GAME.

YankeeSteel
12-17-08, 08:04 PM
You forgot about.... Rauuuuuuuuuul Moooooooondesi !!!

DaSh 1s
12-17-08, 08:08 PM
And people beat the crap out of my boy, Melky. I mean he never projected at being more than a average outfielder. I think people expected him to be and Allstar.

Your boy Melky was less than average.

groovitude
12-17-08, 08:08 PM
You forgot about.... Rauuuuuuuuuul Moooooooondesi !!!I'm imagining Daniel Plainview saying "Raul Mondesi" like he said "Drainage!!" -- thank you for that thought.

YankeeSteel
12-17-08, 08:12 PM
I'm imagining Daniel Plainview saying "Raul Mondesi" like he said "Drainage!!" -- thank you for that thought.

ItsSoright don't mention it.

Yankees13
12-17-08, 08:13 PM
How often do elite players become available without mortgaging the farm system?
Tex, Beltran, and Vlad are all recent examples. I don't want to argue about what constitutes mortgaging the farm system, but there's been other players available in trades as well.

Yankees13
12-17-08, 08:17 PM
I'm imagining Daniel Plainview saying "Raul Mondesi" like he said "Drainage!!" -- thank you for that thought.
Raul Mondesi drinks your milkshake.

YESSIR!
12-17-08, 08:24 PM
The Yankees should have gone primarily after CC and Teixeira. ~$86million came off the books and those two would have accounted for maybe $48million of it. They still would have had plenty of money to plug wholes while staying below what they spent in 2008.

groovitude
12-17-08, 08:25 PM
Raul Mondesi drinks your milkshake.You see, if Raul has a ball... and you have a ball...and Raul has a bat -- there it is, that's a bat, you see? You watching? And you pitch the ball acrosssssss the plate, and Raul starts to hit your pitching.

Raul... hits... your... pitching! He hits them out!!

BxBomber44
12-17-08, 08:29 PM
we sign tex if we offer 10 years. thats all there is to it

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 08:54 PM
Doesn't change the fact he hasn't lived up to his billing...

The prices you quote were top dollar at that time...

I can still see him taking that 12-6 curve to St Louis for the win...:D

Met fans spend most of their time booing him...
Because mets fans are dumb. I mean Yankees fans spend their time booing Arod, what does that prove ? Absolutly nothing. Beltran has been the best cf in baseball since the mets signed him.

TEPLimey
12-17-08, 08:54 PM
we sign tex if we offer 10 years. thats all there is to it
Signing any player over 25, ARod included, for 10 years is a foolhardy move.

NelsonMuntz
12-17-08, 09:11 PM
Which is why Tex or Manny HAVE to be signed. I dont see how anyone can feel that we can win a ring in 2009 with that lineup.
I agree. It's downright delusional to think this lineup is championship caliber.

Yankees1962
12-17-08, 09:12 PM
I agree. It's downright delusional to think this lineup is championship caliber.
I've been called worse things.

NelsonMuntz
12-17-08, 09:26 PM
I've been called worse things.
:lol: I wasn't calling anyone out in particular, but touche.

teknetic
12-17-08, 09:28 PM
Yankees' 2008 OPS: .769.
Phillies' 2008 OPS: .770.
Rays' 2008 OPS: .762.

Our offense from last year lines up about right with the two World Series teams from this past year.

The difference is in the pitching:

Yankee's ERA: 4.28.
Phillies' 2008 ERA: 3.88.
Rays' 2008 ERA: 3.82.

Therefore, if we maintain our offensive output (and we should probably get better if Matsui and Posada return to some semblance of their previous form) and improve our pitching (like we did with Burnett and Sabathia), we should be legitimate World Series contenders.

You and your facts disgust me.


I agree. It's downright delusional to think this lineup is championship caliber.

No, not really. Could they use help? sure, but you're blowing it way out of proportion. Down year from ARod, Jeter (wrist), Cano; injuries to Matsui and Posada kinda takes its toll on an offense.

NYYFAN
12-17-08, 09:36 PM
Because mets fans are dumb. I mean Yankees fans spend their time booing Arod, what does that prove ? Absolutly nothing. Beltran has been the best cf in baseball since the mets signed him.

I'd take Tori Hunter over Beltran...

NelsonMuntz
12-17-08, 09:52 PM
No, not really. Could they use help? sure, but you're blowing it way out of proportion. Down year from ARod, Jeter (wrist), Cano; injuries to Matsui and Posada kinda takes its toll on an offense.
A-Rod is the least of my worries. I expect Jeter to decline a bit but he's not my primary concern either (same for Damon). I'm not even worried about Cano aside from his usual supbar OBP. However the rest of the lineup absolutely concerns me. I just don't think it's a given that Matsui and Posada are going to bounce back like everyone seems to be hoping/expecting. We really don't know what to expect from Swisher. Nady is mediocre and CF is currently a black hole. So essentially I have legitimate concerns about more than 50% of our lineup as it is currently constructed. I don't think that is blowing anything out of proportion.

The PRO
12-17-08, 09:54 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.
Then it was RJ, Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex
Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The decisions have not always been Cashman's to make. George S. personally signed Sheffield, who stunk in every single playoff for us. Look it up. Cashman wanted Vlad. Then, George INSISTED on Randy Johnson who stunk the place out while Cashman wanted Beltran but the luxury tax would have gone over the top with both of them. That's why when Cashman re-signed a new contract, he wanted more control in making decisions and got it.

We needed pitching badly last season. You can't win with Wang and Joba out and sending guys like Rasner, Ponson, and even Pettitte (2-7 down the stretch) out to get clubbed. Right now, Cashman is against signing Manny. But he has gotten us pitching in C.C. and A.J. Hank and Hal want Manny and I agree with that.

I'll take C.C., A.J., and Manny any day of the week over Teixeira for 10 years.

Come up to the podium and face the music: You just don't like Cashman. I hope the Angels get Tex so that we can sign Manny. Let him wear #6. :lol: Maybe after he's done, we'll retire it for him.

Matsui55
12-17-08, 09:56 PM
I agree. It's downright delusional to think this lineup is championship caliber.

This is just irrational on so many levels.

The Yanks signed a true ace SP in CC. They have a guy who would be a #1 SP on almost every other team as their #2 SP (Wang). Burnett, while overpaid and given about 2 years too many (which is irrelevant to the Yanks after Pavano), is better than any other teams #3 SP not named Matsuzaka.

Assuming they bring back Pettitte as the #4 SP, not too many other clubs can count on winning 12-14 games from their #4. Joba isn't ready for a full-time load, but as the #5 SP building up IP for 2010, he should be superior to ANY clubs #5 SP (assuming health).

The Yanks have Damon, Jeter, ARod, Posada, Matsui, and Cano as their top 6 hitters (maybe not in that order, but in something close to that). Even assuming some lost time to injury, these are all hitters who will be among, if not THE offensive league leader at their positions.

Swisher will be in the upper half of AL 1B. Nady is fine as a #7/8 hitter- he'll give you .270-280 20 85 in that role- which is fine. The weak spot is CF.

Cameron would be an upgrade- but there are other options out there.

The down economy will also bring other teams to the Yanks in trades. Right now, Damon and Matsui have little trade value because they were hurt or are old. However, both have expiring contracts. Next year, when some middle of the road teams realize how much in the red they are operating not only for 2009, but going forward, those two deals will be VERY valuable.

Look at the Blue Jays- they are in serious financial straits- they might not want to deal with the Yanks, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that they can keep paying Vernon Wells going forward- his contract will jump from $10M in 2009 (which includes the $8.5M bonus due in January) to $21M in 2010 and then pays him $23M, $21M, $21M and $21M going forward.

There are no other clubs besides the Yanks that can take on that kind of a deal going forward without an offset. Say you offer them Damon and a couple prospects for Wells at the trade deadline- think a club millions in the red and without a solid owner can turn that down?

What about the Astros and Carlos Lee? He's due $74M over the next 4 years. Think the Mariners can afford Ichiro going forward at $17M per for the next 4 years in a down economy? Taking Matsui and some youngsters might get that done (taking Matsui to save some face with the Japanese fan base). Think the Tigers might not like to move Miggy Cabrera if the Big 3 fold in Detroit? He's due $141M over the next 7 years!

In other words, Cashman is playing this ABSOLUTELY right. He knows he has BIG expiring deals in 2009 and 2010 (2009- Matsui, Damon and Nady- that's over $30M; 2010- Jeter, Mo Rivera- that's over $35M). Only Jeter has a good shot of coming back- and even that's no guarantee.

As the MLB economy worsens, and the Yanks continue to reduce payroll, then the Yanks are in the drivers seat to take some of these burdensome deals from teams that are being hit hard by the downturn in Abreu type deals. These teams won't be in a position to ask for more than some B type prospects and cash in return for the Yanks relieving them of a bad contract they can't afford.

In other words, don't blow the budget now when you can get similar players for less money (and already locked into contracts) going forward.

NelsonMuntz
12-17-08, 10:11 PM
This is just irrational on so many levels.

The Yanks signed a true ace SP in CC. They have a guy who would be a #1 SP on almost every other team as their #2 SP (Wang). Burnett, while overpaid and given about 2 years too many (which is irrelevant to the Yanks after Pavano), is better than any other teams #3 SP not named Matsuzaka.

Assuming they bring back Pettitte as the #4 SP, not too many other clubs can count on winning 12-14 games from their #4. Joba isn't ready for a full-time load, but as the #5 SP building up IP for 2010, he should be superior to ANY clubs #5 SP (assuming health).

The Yanks have Damon, Jeter, ARod, Posada, Matsui, and Cano as their top 6 hitters (maybe not in that order, but in something close to that). Even assuming some lost time to injury, these are all hitters who will be among, if not THE offensive league leader at their positions.

Swisher will be in the upper half of AL 1B. Nady is fine as a #7/8 hitter- he'll give you .270-280 20 85 in that role- which is fine. The weak spot is CF.

Cameron would be an upgrade- but there are other options out there.

The down economy will also bring other teams to the Yanks in trades. Right now, Damon and Matsui have little trade value because they were hurt or are old. However, both have expiring contracts. Next year, when some middle of the road teams realize how much in the red they are operating not only for 2009, but going forward, those two deals will be VERY valuable.

Look at the Blue Jays- they are in serious financial straits- they might not want to deal with the Yanks, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that they can keep paying Vernon Wells going forward- his contract will jump from $10M in 2009 (which includes the $8.5M bonus due in January) to $21M in 2010 and then pays him $23M, $21M, $21M and $21M going forward.

There are no other clubs besides the Yanks that can take on that kind of a deal going forward without an offset. Say you offer them Damon and a couple prospects for Wells at the trade deadline- think a club millions in the red and without a solid owner can turn that down?

What about the Astros and Carlos Lee? He's due $74M over the next 4 years. Think the Mariners can afford Ichiro going forward at $17M per for the next 4 years in a down economy? Taking Matsui and some youngsters might get that done (taking Matsui to save some face with the Japanese fan base). Think the Tigers might not like to move Miggy Cabrera if the Big 3 fold in Detroit? He's due $141M over the next 7 years!

In other words, Cashman is playing this ABSOLUTELY right. He knows he has BIG expiring deals in 2009 and 2010 (2009- Matsui, Damon and Nady- that's over $30M; 2010- Jeter, Mo Rivera- that's over $35M). Only Jeter has a good shot of coming back- and even that's no guarantee.

As the MLB economy worsens, and the Yanks continue to reduce payroll, then the Yanks are in the drivers seat to take some of these burdensome deals from teams that are being hit hard by the downturn in Abreu type deals. These teams won't be in a position to ask for more than some B type prospects and cash in return for the Yanks relieving them of a bad contract they can't afford.

In other words, don't blow the budget now when you can get similar players for less money (and already locked into contracts) going forward.
You're misconstruing my argument. I'm thrilled with the emphasis on pitching. And while I would really like to see the Yankees sign Teix or Manny, I would not criticize Cashman we ultimate did not sign either (although if it comes down to money being the issue I do think you could make a strong argument that the money spent on AJ should have been spent on Teix). I'm simply saying this lineup as it is presently constructed is not a championship caliber lineup. I stand by that assertion. Is it possible Cash will make a deal to improve it sometime between now and the trade deadline? Absolutely. I never said otherwise. Or perhaps the plan is to let the chips fall where they may this year with the emphasis on pitching and focus on the offense next year. I'm okay with that strategy. But there are simply too many question marks in this lineup (again, as it is currently constructed) for me to feel confident that it can replicate the production of recent years.

surge511
12-17-08, 10:33 PM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

Screwing up would be needing to add about 600 quality IP to your starting rotation and instead spending $25 million on a bat before getting pitching. The two targets going in were CC and AJ. We got both. Anything added to the offense we should consider a bonus.

surge511
12-17-08, 10:42 PM
Look at the 1999 team. Jeter and Bernie were out of this world, but everyone else put up normal, decent/pedestrian numbers. In fact, Posada batted .245 as the starting catcher. The offense was solid, but by no means all-star caliber.

The pitching on the other hand was exceptional. 30+ starts by the top 4 guys (all quality starters). 27 starts out of the fifth starter. A shut-down bullpen.

This team has the chance to perform much the same way, maybe even out perform 1999. But, more than the offense, which does not necessarily need Manny or Tex, is health and production out of the pitching staff, something we have been consistently lacking for years. Hopefully these two new signings provide a different outcome.

Buzah!
12-17-08, 10:50 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-spyanks1218,0,858603.story

Seems like we might end up with one or the other.

TheHugeUnit2
12-17-08, 10:53 PM
What about the Astros and Carlos Lee? He's due $74M over the next 4 years. Think the Mariners can afford Ichiro going forward at $17M per for the next 4 years in a down economy? Taking Matsui and some youngsters might get that done (taking Matsui to save some face with the Japanese fan base). Think the Tigers might not like to move Miggy Cabrera if the Big 3 fold in Detroit? He's due $141M over the next 7 years!

In other words, Cashman is playing this ABSOLUTELY right. He knows he has BIG expiring deals in 2009 and 2010 (2009- Matsui, Damon and Nady- that's over $30M; 2010- Jeter, Mo Rivera- that's over $35M). Only Jeter has a good shot of coming back- and even that's no guarantee.

As the MLB economy worsens, and the Yanks continue to reduce payroll, then the Yanks are in the drivers seat to take some of these burdensome deals from teams that are being hit hard by the downturn in Abreu type deals. These teams won't be in a position to ask for more than some B type prospects and cash in return for the Yanks relieving them of a bad contract they can't afford.

In other words, don't blow the budget now when you can get similar players for less money (and already locked into contracts) going forward.
I agree, I hate to see the US like this, but if it has to be this way might as well favor the Yankees.

sabermet prospectus
12-17-08, 10:59 PM
I'd take Tori Hunter over Beltran...
No offense but you would be wrong. Beltran is SO much better then Tori Hunter.

grizy
12-17-08, 11:01 PM
What if Cash's plan is to have Angels and Red Sox duke it out and then sweep ni at the last minute with a better offer? If I were Boras I would definitely put in that last phone call to make sure the Yankees really won't top whatever is on teh table.

nojoke
12-17-08, 11:03 PM
have some of you guys not noticed that we'd basically have to sign Tex to 10 years?

Reports like this are showing that we could get Manny for 2-3 years. I feel a LOT more comfortable with that
http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=1087615

And you can make all the jokes about Pavano now, but Red Sox, Yankees and every fan wanted Pavano. There was absolutely no reason not to.

TheInfallibleOne
12-17-08, 11:07 PM
wow. in 53 games manny hit 17 homers and drove in 53 runs. stretch that to the course of 1 season and its ~50 homers and ~150 rbi.

i was once against this. but if we cant get teix, were good.

27IsNext
12-18-08, 01:36 AM
The Yankees would be making a big mistake not adding another big bat to the offense. As my avatar would indicate, I'd prefer Teixeira.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 07:10 AM
One thing though let's say we sign Tex to a ten year contract. How long is it gonna take for people to complain about the signing? I say by 2011.

apalradio
12-18-08, 07:23 AM
One thing though let's say we sign Tex to a ten year contract. How long is it gonna take for people to complain about the signing? I say by 2011.But if we sign Manny, the complaining might start around June 2009.

TEPLimey
12-18-08, 07:23 AM
One thing though let's say we sign Tex to a ten year contract. How long is it gonna take for people to complain about the signing? I say by 2011.
This is why you sign Dunn for 3 instead of Teix for 10.

You can pencil Dunn in for a .380 obp with 40 HRs for the next 3+ seasons. Then, who knows?
You can pencil Teix in for a .390 obp with 35 HRs for the next 3+ seasons. Then, who knows?

rajah
12-18-08, 07:56 AM
1) Signing Shef rather than Vlad was a bad mistake, as was passing on Beltran to get Randy. Both were dictated by George. How can the Steinbrenners then blame Cashman?

2) As for Tex, Cashman is given a budget. If you fault him for not getting Tex, then you have to argue that he should have not signed both top pitchers. I have posted many times that I would have made Teixeira a priority, certainly after signing one top pitcher like CC and before a second. Cashman, howewver, I think, buys into the pitching wins rings theory and he may be right. Getting Tex would have required at least 9 if not 10 years at over 20 million. Because of my assessment of Tex, I would have done it, in part to thwart the Sox, but I can understand why rational folks would make a different call. The Steinbrenners are on board with this in any event, so they can't fault Cashman.

3) Going for the aging Manny (who may or may not play hard after getting his last big contract) or the defensively challenged and out-of-shape Dunn rather than Teixeira clearly would show terrible judgment. It would be a Steinbrenner move, however, not a Cashman move, and again he could not be faulted by the ownership that directed it.

R.V.47
12-18-08, 07:57 AM
This is why you sign Dunn for 3 instead of Teix for 10.

You can pencil Dunn in for a .380 obp with 40 HRs for the next 3+ seasons. Then, who knows?
You can pencil Teix in for a .390 obp with 35 HRs for the next 3+ seasons. Then, who knows?

Does anyone else expect though that Tex would want an opt out in his contract? Its something that has worked to perfection for players in the past (A-Rod, Burnett) and with Tex still fairly young I could see him wanting one too.

rajah
12-18-08, 08:11 AM
Signing any player over 25, ARod included, for 10 years is a foolhardy move.

This is just wrong. HOF position players who excel on both sides of the ball as great athletes, who work hard at conditioning, who show no injury history, and who have great character, like Teixeira and even in his own way ARod, are certainly better deals and lower risk at 10 year contracts signed before 30 than are old ballplayers of questionable character or poorly conditioned players at shorter terms.

Pitchers should not be signed for long terms, however, in my opinion. I am very nervous about the length of the contracts given to the obese CC and to AJ as well, given his past record.

The Sox know what they are doing. They played it right with Dice K, because of his age, and they are playing it right with Teixeira.

gadvfreak99
12-18-08, 08:18 AM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

Hey if they end up with Manny then in my opinion for CC, AJ and Pettite coming back, this off season was successful.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 09:10 AM
I don't know how much longer I could handle this. With every day passes that we haven't signed Manny or Dunn it worries me more and more and more that the Yankees are satisfied with just AJ and CC. How could anyone be satisfied with our hitting right now?

justtxyank
12-18-08, 09:11 AM
I just want to say that the thread title cracks me up.

Do you know how many GMs fail to sign the best two player on the market every year?

Yankee Fan in Boston
12-18-08, 09:12 AM
I don't know how much longer I could handle this. With every day passes that we haven't signed Manny or Dunn it worries me more and more and more that the Yankees are satisfied with just AJ and CC. How could anyone be satisfied with our hitting right now?

Relax. No one is signing anywhere. With two signings this year so far we've made, what, 40% or so of the free agent signings? Boras doesn't like to move too quickly.

justtxyank
12-18-08, 09:13 AM
I don't know how much longer I could handle this. With every day passes that we haven't signed Manny or Dunn it worries me more and more and more that the Yankees are satisfied with just AJ and CC. How could anyone be satisfied with our hitting right now?

You are irrational. It isn't a matter of "being satisfied" with the hitting, it's a matter of being at a place where they (might) feel like they've done all they reasonably can in one offseason to improve the team.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 09:15 AM
Relax. No one is signing anywhere. With two signings this year so far we've made, what, 40% or so of the free agent signings? Boras doesn't like to move too quickly.

Manny and or Tex will sign somewhere by Christmas. It will probably be Tex and he most likely will go to Boston which would lead me to get even more nervous if we hadn't signed a hitter yet.How is getting one more hitter not being reasonable?I didn't say it had to be Tex. I didn't even say it had to be Manny. As of now nothing has improved our team as a whole. Just our pitching. Tex is This Close to signing with Boston . Now hitting wise how do you think we can counter this? I'm trying not to be unreasonable here but IMO we need someone to counter Boston so we actually have a chance to beat them. Sign, Dunn, Sign Manny, Get anyone. As long as he is a good power hitter that can actually get runs.

Ynkcpt23
12-18-08, 09:23 AM
I just want to say that the thread title cracks me up.

Do you know how many GMs fail to sign the best two player on the market every year?

Of course I do: all of them. But when you compare resources with our org. vs. others, I can understand some of the angst, regardless of how little good it does anybody. Now that we have CC and AJ under contract that part is said and done. Do I think we need another bat? Yes I think that would be ideal. Do I think Tex is the best one out there? Yep. Do I think it's in our best interest to get him? That's where it starts to get fuzzier IMO.

yankswn23
12-18-08, 09:25 AM
does the thread dissapear if we sign Tex, I think if the Yankees are willing to go to 10 years they can get it done, at least youll have arod and Tex playing at that time, although tex is awesome before he was becoming a free agent I never would have ranked him up there with superstars, I wouldnt lump him in with Arod, manny, pujlos, howard even Seizmore, hes a great player but not worth 200 million to me.. I know he is a great 1b defensively and has a great bat but he is no AROD and people thought what we spent for him was alot..guess we will see what the Yankees think.

Ynkcpt23
12-18-08, 09:25 AM
Manny and or Tex will sign somewhere by Christmas. It will probably be Tex and he most likely will go to Boston which would lead me to get even more nervous if we hadn't signed a hitter yet.How is getting one more hitter not being reasonable?I didn't say it had to be Tex. I didn't even say it had to be Manny. As of now nothing has improved our team as a whole. Just our pitching. Tex is This Close to signing with Boston . Now hitting wise how do you think we can counter this? I'm trying not to be unreasonable here but IMO we need someone to counter Boston so we actually have a chance to beat them. Sign, Dunn, Sign Manny, sign anyone. As long as he is a good power hitter that can actually get runs.

Whoa, brother, let's start coming back down to earth. The world will continue to turn on its axis even without another offensive addition, even though I would prefer one as well.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 09:29 AM
[/b]

Whoa, brother, let's start coming back down to earth. The world will continue to turn on its axis even without another offensive addition, even though I would prefer one as well.

Okay I know that. I just don't want Boston to be in first place for that long because quite frankly seeing Boston ahead of us makes me sort of queasy. And I don't think anyone disagrees that as of right now if Tex signs with Boston they will mostly be a first place team at least for the next 2 to 3 years. I think that's a pretty real scenario.

Yankees1962
12-18-08, 09:40 AM
Okay I know that. I just don't want Boston to be in first place for that long because quite frankly seeing Boston ahead of us makes me sort of queasy. And I don't think anyone disagrees that as of right now if Tex signs with Boston they will mostly be a first place team at least for the next 2 to 3 years. I think that's a pretty real scenario.
There are far too many variables that can affect that outcome to know for sure.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 09:48 AM
There are far too many variables that can affect that outcome to know for sure.

It would be nice to have some real insurance like getting Manny or Dunn to help. I just don't see how they can't even get Adam F'n Dunn. He's pretty Cheap and can hit 40 Homeruns a year for us. That's enough!

MaximMan121
12-18-08, 10:09 AM
First it was Sheff, Brown and Vazquez over Vlad.

Then it was RJ Pavano and Wright over Beltran

And now Manny and Burnett (and maybe even CC) over Tex

Yet he still gets to keep his job. I wish I could screw up as much as him and still have a job.

So Sabermet Prospectus again will create a thread that is absolutely ludicrous.

And we will actually help him by posting in it.

How on earth does this guy have any credibility left?

President Kennedy
12-18-08, 10:16 AM
I would love it if we signed Tex, but it is pretty amazing how much he's being overrated. He's an excellent player, but this is hardly a one-of-a-kind talent that requires throwing out other needs in order to secure. He is great defensively but he plays a position that is not a premium defensive position. Offensively he's fantastic, but hardly at the level that makes his value greater to this team than what an established frontline SP like CC brings. We desperately needed Sabathia much more than we need Teixeira, if indeed it turns out that we don't sign Tex. Offensively we can make up ground to Tex by signing either Manny to a short term deal (in fact, Manny projects to be a better hitter for the next two-three seasons than Tex) or even Adam Dunn.

Again, I love Tex and hope we sign him but the idea that he's this franchise-making player just isn't true. He's not Arod or Pujols, and he doesn't play CF. If someone wants to spend $200m on him, Godspeed. I won't criticize Cashman for signing the two best SPs on the market and attempting to solidify centerfield.

DaPip1998
12-18-08, 10:19 AM
You are irrational. It isn't a matter of "being satisfied" with the hitting, it's a matter of being at a place where they (might) feel like they've done all they reasonably can in one offseason to improve the team.

Never mind the fact that their may be players who become available DURING the season that aren't available now.....

Yankee Fan in Boston
12-18-08, 10:23 AM
I would love it if we signed Tex, but it is pretty amazing how much he's being overrated. He's an excellent player, but this is hardly a one-of-a-kind talent that requires throwing out other needs in order to secure. He is great defensively but he plays a position that is not a premium defensive position. Offensively he's fantastic, but hardly at the level that makes his value greater to this team than what an established frontline SP like CC brings. We desperately needed Sabathia much more than we need Teixeira, if indeed it turns out that we don't sign Tex. Offensively we can make up ground to Tex by signing either Manny to a short term deal (in fact, Manny projects to be a better hitter for the next two-three seasons than Tex) or even Adam Dunn.

Again, I love Tex and hope we sign him but the idea that he's this franchise-making player just isn't true. He's not Arod or Pujols, and he doesn't play CF. If someone wants to spend $200m on him, Godspeed. I won't criticize Cashman for signing the two best SPs on the market and attempting to solidify centerfield.

I agree that the pitchers were more critical to our success. Tex is intriguing because of his talent, age, the improvement he would mean for our offense and, importantly, availability without costing us prospects. Also, I think the fact that the Red Sox are interested is making some folks desire him as a defensive move as well. That said, it was a great offseason for us even if we do nothing else.

sweet_lou_14
12-18-08, 10:29 AM
I don't know how much longer I could handle this. With every day passes that we haven't signed Manny or Dunn it worries me more and more and more that the Yankees are satisfied with just AJ and CC. How could anyone be satisfied with our hitting right now?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

It might be time to start looking into some of the more recent pharmaceutical breakthroughs.

djeter220
12-18-08, 10:45 AM
Dude ... CC, AJ, and probably Manny is an AMAZING offseason IMHO. Manny does more for our team than Tex does. Hes only a 1st baseman.

An older, past his prime (but still good, i admit), slow runnning, bad fielding, goofball head case that's liable to quit on us at any moment does more for our team that a younger switch hitting 1B thats in his prime, hits for average and power and fields his position tremendously? Tex would help us more in the short term as well as the long term.

yankswn23
12-18-08, 11:35 AM
An older, past his prime (but still good, i admit), slow runnning, bad fielding, goofball head case that's liable to quit on us at any moment does more for our team that a younger switch hitting 1B thats in his prime, hits for average and power and fields his position tremendously? Tex would help us more in the short term as well as the long term.

That is what the DH position is for..

Tifoso
12-18-08, 12:04 PM
That is what the DH position is for..

And why I hate the DH ;)

rajah
12-18-08, 12:15 PM
And why I hate the DH ;)

And why DHs should never be MVPs or paid like super stars.

Brooklyn4Life
12-18-08, 12:17 PM
I don't think some fans realize how much or little the yankees have left to sign a player. Don't forget that we have a couple of players that will get raises this year.



2009 Payroll
Payroll shed this offseason
swisher 6
cano 6 giambi 21
jeter 20 i.rodriguez 7 1/2 season (13 full)
a.rodriguez 32 pettite 16
posada 13.1 abreu 16
molina 2 farnsworth 3.4 1/2 season (7 full)
nady 6 mussina 11.5
gardner 0.4 pavano 11
damon 13
matsui 13 total $85.9
sabathia 23
burnett 16.5
wang 5
joba 0.4
hughes 0.4
rivera 15
coke 0.4
bruney 0.4
veras 0.4
marte 4
ramirez 0.4
robertson 0.4
wright 0.4
aceves 0.4
brackman 1.2

total $179.8


Now assuming we sign pettite for $10 mil, that would bring us to around $190 mil. The 2008 payroll was around $209 mil, so if we signed either manny or teixiera for $20+ mil, we would in fact have a higher payroll than last year. I do believe that cashman said that we would lower our payroll, so like it or not, signing either manny or tex is very unlikely unless he deviates from that plan.

Bern baby Bern!
12-18-08, 12:22 PM
My point was we do have enough money to sign Tex so why not do it ?
How do you know yankees have enough money to sign a player to 8-10 years for close to $23 million/year. Maybe yankees don't want to tie themselves into another big time money player for at least the next 8 years. Maybe they are looking at the future instead of looking at tomorrow. If we sign Tex your looking at a pretty old team in a few years from now. I dont disagree with Cashman, in fact I think it would be a big mistake to sign him to a long-term contract and I think it will hurt us like Pavano and Giambi's contract where we couldnt wait for it to be done with already.
I am not a Cashman lover, far from it, but you gotta give him a break and see things from a GM's and not a fan's point of view.

grizy
12-18-08, 12:35 PM
I don't think some fans realize how much or little the yankees have left to sign a player. Don't forget that we have a couple of players that will get raises this year.



2009 Payroll
Payroll shed this offseason
swisher 6
cano 6 giambi 21
jeter 20 i.rodriguez 7 1/2 season (13 full)
a.rodriguez 32 pettite 16
posada 13.1 abreu 16
molina 2 farnsworth 3.4 1/2 season (7 full)
nady 6 mussina 11.5
gardner 0.4 pavano 11
damon 13
matsui 13 total $85.9
sabathia 23
burnett 16.5
wang 5
joba 0.4
hughes 0.4
rivera 15
coke 0.4
bruney 0.4
veras 0.4
marte 4
ramirez 0.4
robertson 0.4
wright 0.4
aceves 0.4
brackman 1.2

total $179.8

Now assuming we sign pettite for $10 mil, that would bring us to around $190 mil. The 2008 payroll was around $209 mil, so if we signed either manny or teixiera for $20+ mil, we would in fact have a higher payroll than last year. I do believe that cashman said that we would lower our payroll, so like it or not, signing either manny or tex is very unlikely unless he deviates from that plan.

If choice is between Andy and Tex, it's not even close. Tex hands down. But yes, I agree, odds aren't very good, although I am extremely hopeful.

Yankee Tripper
12-18-08, 12:35 PM
I don't think some fans realize how much or little the yankees have left to sign a player. Don't forget that we have a couple of players that will get raises this year.

They realize, they just don't care. It isn't their money. The Yanks should clearly never cut payroll in their humble opinions so even though last year included some "bad contracts" coming off the books they think $209M should be the FLOOR for the 2009 payroll.

Yankee Tripper
12-18-08, 12:36 PM
How do you know yankees have enough money to sign a player to 8-10 years for close to $23 million/year. Maybe yankees don't want to tie themselves into another big time money player for at least the next 8 years. Maybe they are looking at the future instead of looking at tomorrow. If we sign Tex your looking at a pretty old team in a few years from now. I dont disagree with Cashman, in fact I think it would be a big mistake to sign him to a long-term contract and I think it will hurt us like Pavano and Giambi's contract where we couldnt wait for it to be done with already.
I am not a Cashman lover, far from it, but you gotta give him a break and see things from a GM's and not a fan's point of view.

:clap:

montrealer
12-18-08, 01:39 PM
How do you know yankees have enough money to sign a player to 8-10 years for close to $23 million/year. Maybe yankees don't want to tie themselves into another big time money player for at least the next 8 years. Maybe they are looking at the future instead of looking at tomorrow. If we sign Tex your looking at a pretty old team in a few years from now. I dont disagree with Cashman, in fact I think it would be a big mistake to sign him to a long-term contract and I think it will hurt us like Pavano and Giambi's contract where we couldnt wait for it to be done with already.
I am not a Cashman lover, far from it, but you gotta give him a break and see things from a GM's and not a fan's point of view.

Hopefully the Yankees have learned from past mistakes.........but with the signing of AJ I fear not.

teknetic
12-18-08, 01:53 PM
So Sabermet Prospectus again will create a thread that is absolutely ludicrous.

And we will actually help him by posting in it.

How on earth does this guy have any credibility left?

Beats the hell out of me, all he does is bait and run for the hills.

BroadwayBomber55
12-18-08, 05:29 PM
sabermet prospectus = :barf:

sabermet prospectus
12-18-08, 07:48 PM
With Tex signing with Boston now, kiss the division goodbye. Thanks again Cash.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 07:49 PM
With Tex signing with Boston now, kiss the division goodbye. Thanks again Cash.

What about Manny?

sabermet prospectus
12-18-08, 07:49 PM
They realize, they just don't care. It isn't their money. The Yanks should clearly never cut payroll in their humble opinions so even though last year included some "bad contracts" coming off the books they think $209M should be the FLOOR for the 2009 payroll.
Hey I dont want to hear its not my money when Im paying 3500 for seats. The Yankees want to charge that much well I better see a good product on the field. The royals dont spend but there seats are like 5 dollars a piece for front row.

sabermet prospectus
12-18-08, 07:50 PM
What about Manny? Only possible way to pull even with them. At this point I would be for it because we already missed out on Tex thanks to Cashmans brilliant mind.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-18-08, 07:52 PM
Only possible way to pull even with them. At this point I would be for it because we already missed out on Tex thanks to Cashmans brilliant mind.

10 years is a long time maybe he wanted to have more money to use on like Holliday next season.

bmxstreetrider86
12-18-08, 09:03 PM
With Tex signing with Boston now, kiss the division goodbye. Thanks again Cash.


definitely, we might as well un-sign burnett and sabathia

Roberto Kelly
12-18-08, 09:46 PM
With Tex signing with Boston now, kiss the division goodbye. Thanks again Cash.

our pitching staff is hands down better than theirs

yanksphan
12-18-08, 09:48 PM
Only possible way to pull even with them. At this point I would be for it because we already missed out on Tex thanks to Cashmans brilliant mind.

Don't blame Cashman - blame the media. They're the reason we're not signing Tex.

sabermet prospectus
12-18-08, 09:58 PM
Don't blame Cashman - blame the media. They're the reason we're not signing Tex.
Eh....... No

You dont think the media has an effect? 2 days ago Manny was all but signed, now the media trashes the move because they all hate Manny (but embrace guys like Darrly, Gooden and Joba) and it looks like we arent getting him.

sabermet prospectus
12-18-08, 10:01 PM
our pitching staff is hands down better than theirs
Is it ?
I think its pretty close actually.

I mean CC and Beckett are pretty equal except CC is more durable while Beckett actually performs in the playoffs.

Lester was pretty damn good last year and is closing in or better then Wang.

Burnett has better pure stuff and Dice K was extremely lucky last year but still at least we know Dice K will stay on the field.

Pettitte and Wake at this point are a wash imo.

The only clear advantage we have is Joba over Clay but Clay is better then he showed last year.

I would give a slight advantage to the Yanks, problem is the Sox have a HUGE advantage when it comes to offense making them the clearly better team right now.

Roberto Kelly
12-18-08, 10:05 PM
Is it ?
I think its pretty close actually.

I mean CC and Beckett are pretty equal except CC is more durable while Beckett actually performs in the playoffs.

Lester was pretty damn good last year and is closing in or better then Wang.

Burnett has better pure stuff and Dice K was extremely lucky last year but still at least we know Dice K will stay on the field.

Pettitte and Wake at this point are a wash imo.

The only clear advantage we have is Joba over Clay but Clay is better then he showed last year.

I would give a slight advantage to the Yanks, problem is the Sox have a HUGE advantage when it comes to offense making them the clearly better team right now.

I'm looking at 1-11, and further considering the yankees depth

YankeePride1967
12-18-08, 10:06 PM
With Tex signing with Boston now, kiss the division goodbye. Thanks again Cash.

Tex has not and may not sign with Boston. Henry just said that with offers Tex has received, Boston is "not a factor" for Teixeira. Could that change? Of course, but it is premature to call for a press conference.

CallOfTheCrow
12-18-08, 10:07 PM
sabermet, you're the new lou piniella. Thank you for stepping up.

27IsNext
12-18-08, 10:11 PM
Although I rarely agree with him, sabermet is making some very good points.

At this point, I'd take Sabathia over Beckett, simply because we don't know which Beckett we're getting. Bad one from '06? Great one from '07? Somewhere-in-between Beckett from '08?

I need to see more of Lester to give him the edge to Wang, but so far I like his stuff and demeanor.

A healthy Burnett is better than Matsuzaka, but his health is a HUGE question mark. However, I wonder too if all the innings Daisuke has pitched over the years will catch up to him.

I'd take Pettitte over Wakefield any day. Andy was extremely unlucky last season.

Chamberlain > Buchholz right now, but Joba needs to prove he can stay healthy. Or, more accurately, the Yankees need to prove that they're not going to freak out every time he tweaks a muscle.

Still, when all is said and done, the offense as presently constructed is unacceptable for a team that has such a large payroll and is moving to a new stadium.

ober0n98
12-19-08, 04:19 AM
Is it ?
I think its pretty close actually.

I mean CC and Beckett are pretty equal except CC is more durable while Beckett actually performs in the playoffs.

Lester was pretty damn good last year and is closing in or better then Wang.

Burnett has better pure stuff and Dice K was extremely lucky last year but still at least we know Dice K will stay on the field.

Pettitte and Wake at this point are a wash imo.

The only clear advantage we have is Joba over Clay but Clay is better then he showed last year.

I would give a slight advantage to the Yanks, problem is the Sox have a HUGE advantage when it comes to offense making them the clearly better team right now.

such a great advantage that the tampa bay devil rays beat them? brilliant.

OK, don't get me wrong, i'd love to have tex, manny, CC, ben sheets, petitte, burnett and cameron ALL OF THEM in one season, but since i realize the yankees can't spend 300 million a year on players, i UNDERSTAND.

Tehasguard
12-19-08, 04:53 AM
Some extremely hilarious posts in this allready epic thread.

:2thumbs:

TEPLimey
12-19-08, 07:55 AM
The Yankees starting staff is not only better than the Red Sox now, but they are poised to widen that gap in the future.

CC > Beckett in terms of both performance and durability
Wang > Lester and, provided Wang is healthy, its not that close
Burnett > Matsuzaka but, as was said, Burnett has durability issues but Matsuzaka is average and was lucky last year
?? > Wake and most Sox fans will agree with that
Joba > Clay although I think Clay will improve this season

Next season we (hopefully) replace ?? with Hughes, Joba moves up to the #2 or 3 slot. This rotation is slated to be set for the next 4 seasons and at a reasonable price too.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-19-08, 08:10 AM
The Yankees starting staff is not only better than the Red Sox now, but they are poised to widen that gap in the future.

CC > Beckett in terms of both performance and durability
Wang > Lester and, provided Wang is healthy, its not that close
Burnett > Matsuzaka but, as was said, Burnett has durability issues but Matsuzaka is average and was lucky last year
?? > Wake and most Sox fans will agree with that
Joba > Clay although I think Clay will improve this season

Next season we (hopefully) replace ?? with Hughes, Joba moves up to the #2 or 3 slot. This rotation is slated to be set for the next 4 seasons and at a reasonable price too.

I think Aceves and Hughes should fight over who the ?? are.I think Aceves deserves a real shot at the rotation.

Bozidar
12-19-08, 08:21 AM
Awesome players made $30,000. Even adjusted for inflation, that's what? $600,000?more importantly there was no free agency, they couldn't leave.

Ynkcpt23
12-19-08, 08:26 AM
The Yankees starting staff is not only better than the Red Sox now, but they are poised to widen that gap in the future.

CC > Beckett in terms of both performance and durability
Wang > Lester and, provided Wang is healthy, its not that close
Burnett > Matsuzaka but, as was said, Burnett has durability issues but Matsuzaka is average and was lucky last year
?? > Wake and most Sox fans will agree with that
Joba > Clay although I think Clay will improve this season

Next season we (hopefully) replace ?? with Hughes, Joba moves up to the #2 or 3 slot. This rotation is slated to be set for the next 4 seasons and at a reasonable price too.

Agreed, with the bold part as my favorite!

sabermet prospectus
12-19-08, 10:09 PM
such a great advantage that the tampa bay devil rays beat them? brilliant.

OK, don't get me wrong, i'd love to have tex, manny, CC, ben sheets, petitte, burnett and cameron ALL OF THEM in one season, but since i realize the yankees can't spend 300 million a year on players, i UNDERSTAND.
In a short series they beat them but the red sox had the best run differntial in the league last year. I mean 7 games doesnt change that.

TEPLimey
12-19-08, 10:59 PM
In a short series they beat them but the red sox had the best run differntial in the league last year. I mean 7 games doesnt change that.
what 7 games are you on about?

primetime714
12-19-08, 11:04 PM
I think Aceves and Hughes should fight over who the ?? are.I think Aceves deserves a real shot at the rotation.

Bad idea with the younger guys on innings limits and the potential for injuries (particularly Burnett) we need Pettitte's innings.

TEPLimey
12-20-08, 09:40 AM
Bad idea with the younger guys on innings limits and the potential for injuries (particularly Burnett) we need Pettitte's innings.
IIRC correctly, Aceves was pitching in the mexican league before last season and is not facing inning limit restraints.

teknetic
12-20-08, 09:41 AM
In a short series they beat them but the red sox had the best run differntial in the league last year. I mean 7 games doesnt change that.

7 games = short series?

You need to try harder.

sabermet prospectus
12-20-08, 11:23 AM
7 games = short series?

You need to try harder.
All playoff series= short series. Are you suggesting that 7 games is a good sample size? I mean thats laughable. The sox were the better team but they lost in 7 games to the rays. It doesnt mean we should neglect how good the sox lineup is for next year.

dont_ya_know24
12-20-08, 11:37 AM
If choice is between Andy and Tex, it's not even close. Tex hands down. But yes, I agree, odds aren't very good, although I am extremely hopeful.

sabathia makes 14 million in 2009

Buzah!
12-20-08, 12:08 PM
I think if Tex tells the Yanks he wants to be a Yankee, he will be.

Zimmer's Helmet
12-20-08, 12:17 PM
I think if Tex tells the Yanks he wants to be a Yankee, he will be.

I think that this may have already happened. ;)

NelsonMuntz
12-20-08, 12:23 PM
IIRC correctly, Aceves was pitching in the mexican league before last season and is not facing inning limit restraints.
I believe he had 5 - 6 years of experience pitching in the Mexican League before last season. So he's definitely not a true "prospect" that the Yankees are going to coddle. I'd be fine with Aceves starting the season as the #5 starter.

parkerstrong
12-20-08, 12:23 PM
Eh....... No

You dont think the media has an effect? 2 days ago Manny was all but signed, now the media trashes the move because they all hate Manny (but embrace guys like Darrly, Gooden and Joba) and it looks like we arent getting him.

I love how you put Joba in the same group of Gooden and Strawberry....yeah that makes sense.

sabermet prospectus
12-20-08, 02:25 PM
I love how you put Joba in the same group of Gooden and Strawberry....yeah that makes sense.
Why not, he drove drunk ? Oh I forgot how thats perfectly acceptable in the baseball world but god forbid you dont run hard to firstbase your hitler reincanated.

Stache Fan
12-20-08, 02:31 PM
Why not, he drove drunk ? Oh I forgot how thats perfectly acceptable in the baseball world but god forbid you dont run hard to firstbase your hitler reincanated.

So true. :(

CallOfTheCrow
12-20-08, 02:33 PM
Why not, he drove drunk ? Oh I forgot how thats perfectly acceptable in the baseball world but god forbid you dont run hard to firstbase your hitler reincanated.

He made a mistake. Gooden & Strawberry were constant offenders of drug abuse. If Joba continues to get in in trouble to the point where he gets thrown in jail (Strawberry) then you'd have a good comparison.

KeithF40
12-20-08, 03:46 PM
Tex is asking for too much money so that is why Cash isn't signing him. We complain about him overpaying for CC but then we don't care if he overpays for Tex. Listen Tex as a career OPS+ of 134 at first base. Sure that is very good but he ain't no Joe DiMaggio so get over him being the savior of the organization.

KeithF40
12-20-08, 03:48 PM
He's young and got one DUI please. You know how many people have gotten a DUI before. If he learns from the first one and doesn't do it again then I have no problem with it. He's a man and will pay for his mistakes and if he learns from them then that is really all you can ask for.

teknetic
12-20-08, 04:02 PM
Why not, he drove drunk ? Oh I forgot how thats perfectly acceptable in the baseball world but god forbid you dont run hard to firstbase your hitler reincanated.

More horrible logic.

sabermet prospectus
12-20-08, 08:47 PM
He's young and got one DUI please. You know how many people have gotten a DUI before. If he learns from the first one and doesn't do it again then I have no problem with it. He's a man and will pay for his mistakes and if he learns from them then that is really all you can ask for.
Oh so that makes it right ? Please. Ive never gotten a DUI

Not to mention in comparison to not running out a ground ball its a lot worse.

sabermet prospectus
12-20-08, 08:49 PM
Tex is asking for too much money so that is why Cash isn't signing him. We complain about him overpaying for CC but then we don't care if he overpays for Tex. Listen Tex as a career OPS+ of 134 at first base. Sure that is very good but he ain't no Joe DiMaggio so get over him being the savior of the organization.
Actually hes probbaly the 3rd best player to hit the free agent market in years behind Arod and Beltran. I mean hes certainly more likely to perform over the length of the contract then CC Sabathia. Not because CC is fat or anything but just because of the pitfalls of being a pitcher.

Buzah!
12-20-08, 09:00 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21teixeira.html?ref=sports

Yanks may be hoping to "lowball" Tex.

JohnnyDamonfan
12-20-08, 09:01 PM
Actually hes probbaly the 3rd best player to hit the free agent market in years behind Arod and Beltran. I mean hes certainly more likely to perform over the length of the contract then CC Sabathia. Not because CC is fat or anything but just because of the pitfalls of being a pitcher.

I wouldn't say that 4th. Remember Manny is a Free Agent. I would definately qualify Manny the third best player to hit FA short term at least.

Fabien Brandy
12-20-08, 09:02 PM
Oh so that makes it right ? Please. Ive never gotten a DUIDon't you need to be 16+ to get a license?

CallOfTheCrow
12-20-08, 09:05 PM
Oh so that makes it right ? Please. Ive never gotten a DUI

Not to mention in comparison to not running out a ground ball its a lot worse.

Do you even read what people write or do you just argue for the sake of arguing with your awful logic? Nobody said what he did is right, in fact the majority...if not everyone on here feels he deserves to be punished for what he did.

primetime714
12-20-08, 09:38 PM
IIRC correctly, Aceves was pitching in the mexican league before last season and is not facing inning limit restraints.

I wasn't really referring to Aceves. Mostly Joba and Hughes. Given their innings limits ~140-150 we're going to need at least 6 reliable starters even if Hughes isn't in our rotation. If we don't sign Pettitte we're banking on Hughes, Aceves, and probably Kennedy being successful for us because with injuries we'll probably see our #7 starter a decent amount too and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see 8+ starters needed this year as we've been averaging about 10-15 different starters every year for the past couple years. A guy like Pettitte brings a lot of stability to a rotation when we have guys like Joba who are limited in the number of innings they can throw and a guy like Burnett who is injury prone. Having guys that can give us quality innings like Pettitte is extremely valuable because it gives us a much better chance of having to go to the Rasner's and Sidney Ponson's of the world.

Buzah!
12-20-08, 09:41 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21teixeira.html?ref=sports

Yanks may be hoping to "lowball" Tex.this is pretty big news, peeps.

bcom33
12-20-08, 09:42 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/sports/baseball/21teixeira.html?ref=sports

Yanks may be hoping to "lowball" Tex.

There's absolutely no way Tex signs under value.

Buzah!
12-20-08, 09:52 PM
There's absolutely no way Tex signs under value.The big news, is that the Yanks are "in it." Not that that's their final offer.

flymick24
12-20-08, 09:54 PM
this is pretty big news, peeps.

how? there's nothing in that "article" that's substantial... it's just regurgitating info that we already know

until the yankees officially make an offer to teix, i'm not going to trust any "people familiar to the yankees' thinking" or "people close to the teixeira negotiations." it's all just hearsay.

Buzah!
12-20-08, 10:14 PM
how? there's nothing in that "article" that's substantial... it's just regurgitating info that we already know

until the yankees officially make an offer to teix, i'm not going to trust any "people familiar to the yankees' thinking" or "people close to the teixeira negotiations." it's all just hearsay.fly mick, cause they've leaked a number. That's as good as opening a negotiation.

NYYDragoon
12-20-08, 10:18 PM
The big news, is that the Yanks are "in it." Not that that's their final offer.I'm with Mick on this one. We know Cash and Co. haven't been ignoring Tex; of course they've been watching. But the fact remains that no manner of business has begun yet.

flymick24
12-20-08, 10:20 PM
fly mick, cause they've leaked a number. That's as good as opening a negotiation.

i suppose, but it sounds more like blind speculation on the writer's part, even though he cites "two yankee officials," who are in all likelihood speculating as well... that's hardly a "leak"

to the best of my knowledge, the times isn't very good with their yankee sources either, especially after they became red sox schills

Buzah!
12-20-08, 10:25 PM
i suppose, but it sounds more like blind speculation on the writer's part, even though he cites "two yankee officials," who are in all likelihood speculating as well... that's hardly a "leak"

to the best of my knowledge, the times isn't very good with their yankee sources either, especially after they became red sox schillsNo, that number was clearly leaked to the Times.

flymick24
12-20-08, 10:27 PM
No, that number was clearly leaked to the Times.

ok, if you say so.. you just beter hope teixeira reads the newspaper

Yankee Fan in Boston
12-20-08, 10:32 PM
No, that number was clearly leaked to the Times.

Kind of like the number we signed Derek Lowe for.

Have we learned nothing this offseason?

Buzah!
12-20-08, 10:36 PM
Kind of like the number we signed Derek Lowe for.

Have we learned nothing this offseason?The Lowe number was leaked to Heyman and that makes a big difference.

27IsNext
12-20-08, 10:42 PM
Buzah!, as much as I'd like to hope the Yankees are in on Teixeira, I just have no confidence that they are. The front office seems to think our current lineup will suffice, which makes me worry about its collective competency.

NelsonMuntz
12-20-08, 10:42 PM
I'm with Mick on this one. We know Cash and Co. haven't been ignoring Tex; of course they've been watching. But the fact remains that no manner of business has begun yet.
Yeah I'm with you guys as well. I really don't view this as big news.

NelsonMuntz
12-20-08, 10:48 PM
Buzah!, as much as I'd like to hope the Yankees are in on Teixeira, I just have no confidence that they are. The front office seems to think our current lineup will suffice, which makes me worry about its collective competency.
I don't think they are in on Teixeira either, but I don't think it's a matter of incompetence (even though I really do want them to sign Teix). I think they are just reluctant to commit that much money and years to one player after already shelling out two large contracts this offseason. The long term plan could legitimately be to shore up the pitching this season, let the chips fall where they may with the offense, and then focus on improving the offense via trades this year or free agency next year. Just speculation on my part though.

TheYankee
12-20-08, 10:52 PM
The thread OP confirms my belief I'm better suited to stay in Inside the Lines I.

flymick24
12-20-08, 10:52 PM
there's a huge difference between saying "they're reluctant to go beyond 8/160" and "they are willing to go 8/160"

TheYankee
12-20-08, 10:55 PM
Or, more accurately, the Yankees need to prove that they're not going to freak out every time he tweaks a muscle.

^This

diehardyankeefan
12-20-08, 11:00 PM
Buzah!, as much as I'd like to hope the Yankees are in on Teixeira, I just have no confidence that they are. The front office seems to think our current lineup will suffice, which makes me worry about its collective competency.
I see what your saying, and I know this offense was difficult to watch last season BUT it's amazing they still had the 7th highest BA in the MLB. The Yankees problem for the offense is their approach. Championships are won by great pitching, any day, any week, any year. I'm hoping that if CC and Burnett turn out well, the Yankees offense can realize they don't need to put up 7-8 runs every game to win and this changes their approach. Less HRs, Higher RISP, More pitches thrown.

Zimmer's Helmet
12-20-08, 11:01 PM
there's a huge difference between saying "they're reluctant to go beyond 8/160" and "they are willing to go 8/160"

Care to elaborate?

Buzah!
12-20-08, 11:10 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-spyanks1221,0,530917.story

Kat says Boras called the Yanks yesterday and told them what it would take.

Zimmer's Helmet
12-20-08, 11:12 PM
http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-spyanks1221,0,530917.story

Kat says Boras called the Yanks yesterday and told them what it would take.

I would be shocked if Tex isn't a Yankee within the next 72 hours.

Buzah!
12-20-08, 11:16 PM
I would be shocked if Tex isn't a Yankee within the next 72 hours.The momentum seems to be headed that way.

27IsNext
12-20-08, 11:20 PM
The momentum seems to be headed that way.

I don't believe it for a second. I think Cashman is far too concerned with cutting payroll and he is prepared to go into the season with this lineup:
LF Damon
SS Jeter
1B Swisher
3B Rodriguez
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Nady
CF Gardner/Melky

Consequently, I feel as though Cashman is making a HUGE mistake. And it's got me quite upset.

YankeePride1967
12-20-08, 11:20 PM
Why do you guys have to keep getting my hopes up! :)

Yankees1962
12-20-08, 11:23 PM
I don't believe it for a second. I think Cashman is far too concerned with cutting payroll and he is prepared to go into the season with this lineup:
LF Damon
SS Jeter
1B Swisher
3B Rodriguez
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Nady
CF Gardner/Melky

Consequently, I feel as though Cashman is making a HUGE mistake. And it's got me quite upset.
If he is cutting payroll then ownership told him to.

Zimmer's Helmet
12-20-08, 11:24 PM
I don't believe it for a second. I think Cashman is far too concerned with cutting payroll and he is prepared to go into the season with this lineup:
LF Damon
SS Jeter
1B Swisher
3B Rodriguez
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Nady
CF Gardner/Melky

Consequently, I feel as though Cashman is making a HUGE mistake. And it's got me quite upset.

Make no mistake about it; this is a deal that will get done.

Tex will be a Yankee; sooner rather than later.

Don't forget that the Yankees have an additional $45 million coming off the books next winter.

Yankees1962
12-20-08, 11:25 PM
Make no mistake about it; this is a deal that will get done.

Tex will be a Yankee; sooner rather than later.

Don't forget that the Yankees have an additional $45 million coming off the books next winter.
I hope you're right, but I think some of you are in for a severe letdown.

jesterno2
12-20-08, 11:29 PM
i doubt we make an official play for tex. with huge long term contracts already owed to arod, cc and now burnett i doubt that they are looking to add another. granted, adding a consistent slugging gg caliber 1b to pair with those guys would look great that is a lot of money tied up in just 4 guys for around half a decade. either way, my biggest question would be:

tex or manny?

damon lf damon cf (?)
jeter ss vs jeter ss
tex 1b arod 3b
arod 3b manny rf/dh (?)

obviously the first lineup would vastly improve our defense while the second could potentially make it even worse than it already is, but does having manny hitting behind arod make the lineup imposing enough to outweigh the defensive deficiencies?

at this point i would vote for the all around team and choose tex, but weighing in manny's imperviousness to pressure and the short term contract its an interesting debate...

NYYFutures17
12-21-08, 12:00 AM
I would be shocked if Tex isn't a Yankee within the next 72 hours.
Boras was definitely trying to up the ceiling price for Tex. If we made an 8 year 180 mil offer, Boras would take that to the GM of every other team in an attept to start a bidding war. "Yanks offered 8\180. What's your bid *enter name here*??"

flymick24
12-21-08, 12:03 AM
Care to elaborate?

saying that "they're reluctant" is a very passive statement... they could also be reluctant to go beyond 10/200 or 7/168 for all we know... saying that they're "reluctant" means absolutely nothing, because we've know that they've been reluctant since the beginning of the off-season.. that's why they've been at the periphery this entire time and not in the thick of the negotiations

now if the so-called source stated that the yankees were actually "willing to go 8/160," that's a whole other story... that indicates a desire on their part to actually put forth that offer and see if it sticks

journalism is all about wording and the nuances of what you can get away with without telling an outright lie

for all of you who are expecting teixeira to be a yankee soon, i don't understand where all your hype is coming from... it's all probably self-induced, and if i'm you guys, i brace myself for when the sox announce at the end of the week that teixeira will be in boston for the next 8 years

THEBOSS84
12-21-08, 12:07 AM
Make no mistake about it; this is a deal that will get done.

Tex will be a Yankee; sooner rather than later.

Don't forget that the Yankees have an additional $45 million coming off the books next winter.

Whoa, you sound very confident here Zim.

Where did you get that $45M figure? Off the top of my head I'm counting around $32M - Matsui $13M, Damon $13M, Nady around $6M.

27IsNext
12-21-08, 12:16 AM
Whoa, you sound very confident here Zim.

Where did you get that $45M figure? Off the top of my head I'm counting around $32M - Matsui $13M, Damon $13M, Nady around $6M.

Add $2 million for Molina, and assuming Pettitte re-signs for the one-year, $10 million deal we've offered. So that's $44 million altogether.

Buzah!
12-21-08, 12:23 AM
I don't believe it for a second. I think Cashman is far too concerned with cutting payroll and he is prepared to go into the season with this lineup:
LF Damon
SS Jeter
1B Swisher
3B Rodriguez
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
RF Nady
CF Gardner/Melky

Consequently, I feel as though Cashman is making a HUGE mistake. And it's got me quite upset.Cause it would be the height of intelligence to cut payroll when you're opening a new stadium, you finished 3rd last year and the YES ratings took a hit down the stretch? They need that stadium to open and they are getting big bat. Now it's just a matter of which one.

THEBOSS84
12-21-08, 12:28 AM
Cause it would be the height of intelligence to cut payroll when you're opening a new stadium, you finished 3rd last year and the YES ratings took a hit down the stretch? They need that stadium to open and they are getting big bat. Now it's just a matter of which one.

Define big bat, and how confident are you exactly?

27IsNext
12-21-08, 12:28 AM
Cause it would be the height of intelligence to cut payroll when you're opening a new stadium, you finished 3rd last year and the YES ratings took a hit down the stretch? They need that stadium to open and they are getting big bat. Now it's just a matter of which one.

I really hope you're right. I'm just not convinced that our front office realizes this. I firmly believe it was, "Lets just improve the pitching and hope the offense hits enough."

CanoForPresident
12-21-08, 12:32 AM
Define big bat, and how confident are you exactly?

LMFAO at your sig!

27IsNext
12-21-08, 12:33 AM
LMFAO at your sig!

Just noticed that myself. Pretty hilarious.

Buzah!
12-21-08, 12:33 AM
Define big bat, and how confident are you exactly?I'm pretty convinced based on what's being floated, and how they've been in stealth mode for the most part since they signed Burnett. It has been thought that at the first Tex meeting, the Yanks asked them to get back to them with the market. Now it seems like that happened yesterday. Today the Yanks leak that for the moment they aren't thinking of going above 8/160, which might be them telling Boras, they don't believe the market's at 180-185, or it might be a message to Tex that they are in, and if he's inclined they can probably get something done. I really think there is momentum there, and if it's not Tex, I think it will be Manny. But I think Yesterday's call made them think they could get Tex. We'll see.

27IsNext
12-21-08, 12:35 AM
You're just going to have to forgive me for not sharing your enthusiasm. :)

Buzah!
12-21-08, 12:36 AM
You're just going to have to forgive me for not sharing your enthusiasm. :)Don't you think they've listened to your avatar?

27IsNext
12-21-08, 12:37 AM
Don't you think they've listened to your avatar?

If I worked in the front office I'd be kicking and screaming for them to sign Teixeira right about now. They'd probably have placed a gagging order on me at this point.

THEBOSS84
12-21-08, 12:38 AM
LMFAO at your sig!

Now lets hope it comes true.

Buzah!
12-21-08, 12:39 AM
Now lets hope it comes true.What was the bad outing that put his ERA over 3.00?