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SINCE77 2
09-30-08, 08:56 PM
After reading some post on this and other forums concerning Ichiro, I started speculating as to how to obtain him. Matsui will be ready for ST. Both knees repaired, I expect another typical Hideki season or maybe above average considering that its a contract year. Yankees need a competent CF and the M's need a DH (Vidro???) or potentially a part time LF should Ibanez bolt. Both players offer Japanese star power to their respective teams. Taking their respective salaries and length of contract into consideration I would make the following offer.


Matsui/Kennedy/Melky/Gardner for Ichiro

Any thoughts?

TheJobaRules
09-30-08, 09:20 PM
Ichiro would be a pretty terrible fit with the Yanks. We already have a pure singles hitter in Jeter.

Matsui-San
09-30-08, 09:20 PM
That's a lot to give up considering the contract we'd be taking off their hands.

nnysiny
09-30-08, 09:24 PM
too much to give up. i would include only one of the last 3 players mentioned, plus some of the contract would have to be picked up.
09:$17M, 10:$17M, 11:$17M, 12:$17M

just-blaze
09-30-08, 09:29 PM
Intriguing nonetheless.....Ichiro could fill a need while giving up excess.

However, if we are eating that contract, they shouldn't get too much back.

ppa79
09-30-08, 09:56 PM
Because we just got rid of a bunch of bad contracts doesn't mean we need to add more.

The Q Bomb
09-30-08, 10:15 PM
I know this may sound corny, but why would you trade a good hitting, good citizen, like Hideki Matsui for Ichiro? I realize Matsui is limited because he is a below average outfielder, is not fast around the bases, and has an expensive contract. On the other hand, he is a professional hitter, a team first guy, not a player who panics in big situations, and has been a Yankee for what 6 years? He has what 3 years left on his contract?

Ichiro would bring much needed speed to the team and a decent OBP, but he is a notoriously "me first" player, does not have much power, and is not exactly a spring chicken himself. Add to that mix his expensive contract and all you have is someone who is faster than Matsui without the power.

YanksFan1992
09-30-08, 11:09 PM
Interesting thought, but the Mariners will not trade Ichiro. Just think about what they demanded for Washburn, and times that by 1000. If the Yankees offered Joba, Hughes, Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero and Ian Kennedy, I am not entirely sure they would accept that. Seriously (although I do think the Mariners really should try to trade him, but for a reasonable price of course).

CallOfTheCrow
09-30-08, 11:15 PM
I know this may sound corny, but why would you trade a good hitting, good citizen, like Hideki Matsui for Ichiro? I realize Matsui is limited because he is a below average outfielder, is not fast around the bases, and has an expensive contract. On the other hand, he is a professional hitter, a team first guy, not a player who panics in big situations, and has been a Yankee for what 6 years? He has what 3 years left on his contract?

Ichiro would bring much needed speed to the team and a decent OBP, but he is a notoriously "me first" player, does not have much power, and is not exactly a spring chicken himself. Add to that mix his expensive contract and all you have is someone who is faster than Matsui without the power.

Ichiro has said himself that he can hit a bunch of home runs if he wanted to, it would just hurt his batting average if he did so.

all you have? Matsui is a career .295 hitter while Ichiro is a .331 hitter. I'm not saying they should go ahead & do it but you make it sound like you're getting a speedy scrub in return.

Hobbes40
09-30-08, 11:24 PM
First off, Matsui still has a better OPS+ than Ichiro. Add to that that Matsui only has one more year, while Ichiro has several (and should be entering his decline years), and I don't see how this is a lucrative deal even straight up.

NYDCYankee
09-30-08, 11:54 PM
Ichiro would be a pretty terrible fit with the Yanks. We already have a pure singles hitter in Jeter.

Let's trade Jeter for Ichiro and sign Orlando Cabrera.

teknetic
09-30-08, 11:57 PM
If Cashman manages to get someone to take BOTH Melky and Gardner then you might as well give him ownership of the Yanks.

Damon(MVP)
10-01-08, 12:11 AM
Interesting trade, those two hundred hits that he gets every year and his speed would come in handy and I'm sure would account for a good number of victories for the Yankees in 09.

Sher
10-01-08, 12:34 AM
IMO Mariners will not accept that deal. I do not think that is enough to land Ichiro, even though I would love to see him in CF for the Yanks.

mrbawm
10-01-08, 02:36 AM
Interesting thought, but the Mariners will not trade Ichiro. Just think about what they demanded for Washburn, and times that by 1000. If the Yankees offered Joba, Hughes, Austin Jackson, Jesus Montero and Ian Kennedy, I am not entirely sure they would accept that. Seriously (although I do think the Mariners really should try to trade him, but for a reasonable price of course).

I think this is the most important piece here. The Mariners are still in denial. You won't see them in full rebuild mode because of this. At this point they probably won't factor in a salary dump as having much value to them. That doesn't even consider Ichiro's marketing factor and what value they believe that to be.

JavyVazquezIsSick
10-01-08, 07:28 AM
Only if they threw in a hefty some of cash. That contract is terrible.

Bleacher_Creature
10-01-08, 07:40 AM
Look at what they wanted for Washburn. They'd ask for Hughes or Cano. It just would not make sense from the Mariners stand point. If I'm the Mariners GM and I trade Ichiro, I would just rebuild and aim to contend in 2010 or 2011. Matsui or say Damon are not players to rebuild around.

MaximMan121
10-01-08, 07:57 AM
First off, Matsui still has a better OPS+ than Ichiro. Add to that that Matsui only has one more year, while Ichiro has several (and should be entering his decline years), and I don't see how this is a lucrative deal even straight up.

He's also an incredible fielder, which should definitely be taken into account. I'd actually be all for this sort of a deal, and I don't think that the deal offered above is a particular rip off. Gardner is basically Ichiro without the ability to hit. That's no loss whatsoever. We're going to be overstocked on DH's again in the coming years, unless Posada really can play full time catcher, and that's not an easy assumption.

An outfield of Damon, Ichiro, Nady is quite good. Jackson then slides in in Nady or Damon's place after 2009. The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. The OPS is a factor--but Matsui has been fairly consistently injured the last two years. His OPS isn't very demonstrative of his abilities going forward. We don't have too much basis to judge how he's going to do (there's a much wider bound on expected performance) given the lack of playing time.

Also, given the Mariner's GM situation, we may very well have an opportunity to do something of this nature. Depends on who they choose.

JL25and3
10-01-08, 07:58 AM
Ichiro has said himself that he can hit a bunch of home runs if he wanted to, it would just hurt his batting average if he did so.

all you have? Matsui is a career .295 hitter while Ichiro is a .331 hitter. I'm not saying they should go ahead & do it but you make it sound like you're getting a speedy scrub in return.Yeah, I keep reading that. If it's true, then somebody needs to have a long talk with Ichiro!, because he's not helping his team the way he could.

Are we really still judging a player's offensive contribution based on batting average?

Ichiro!: .331/.377/.430
Matsui: .295/.371/.478

BennyTheJetRodriguez
10-01-08, 08:04 AM
Yeah, I keep reading that. If it's true, then somebody needs to have a long talk with Ichiro!, because he's not helping his team the way he could.
Agreed. Lots of people say that about Ichiro, obviously it isn't true. Hitting home runs in batting practice means jack. Major leaguers of all people should understand that. If he could really hit 30 home runs a year feasibly(meaning without dropping his OBP to .250) it would happen. No player is that stupid.

MaximMan121
10-01-08, 08:09 AM
Yeah, I keep reading that. If it's true, then somebody needs to have a long talk with Ichiro!, because he's not helping his team the way he could.

Are we really still judging a player's offensive contribution based on batting average?

Ichiro!: .331/.377/.430
Matsui: .295/.371/.478

The reason OPS is such a useful off the cuff stat, is that it's very hard for batting average to overcome slugging. In this case, however, the difference is so great, that 36 points of hits vs. walks is pretty significant, even if they're singles. Just keep in mind that with players on base, a hit is better than a walk.

If it was a 20 points different, it'd be harder to argue (we'd be closer to the wiggle room level). 36 points is very significant. 3.6% of the time, he's getting a single, instead of a walk. So, even though he's got only a 6 point boost on Matsui on OBP, it's a more robust OBP in total.

Next, when we're talking about slugging, keep in mind we're talking total bases. Ichiro has been very proficient at stealing bases over his career. He may be slowing down on that front, but he's still good for a good number of extra bases each year, which ought to be added into his slugging percentage, if we want to get his true value against Matsui's (single/walk+steal is just as good as a double, right?), while keeping in mind the downside for his %cs.

Basically, there are a couple major things to take into account that com,plicate the simple OPS argument for Ichiro vs Matsui.

The downside could be significant, as well. As he leaves his peak, if his average drops but his walk rate doesn't rise, he could become a very expensive complementary player rather quickly.

JL25and3
10-01-08, 08:51 AM
The reason OPS is such a useful off the cuff stat, is that it's very hard for batting average to overcome slugging. In this case, however, the difference is so great, that 36 points of hits vs. walks is pretty significant, even if they're singles. Just keep in mind that with players on base, a hit is better than a walk.

If it was a 20 points different, it'd be harder to argue (we'd be closer to the wiggle room level). 36 points is very significant. 3.6% of the time, he's getting a single, instead of a walk. So, even though he's got only a 6 point boost on Matsui on OBP, it's a more robust OBP in total.

How much of that difference in batting average is due to bunts, infield hits, and little flares that dunk in? Not to denigrate those as hits, but in fact they're really not significantly more useful than walks. And Matsui is hitting for much more power while making outs at the same rate, which far outstrips the difference between walks and singles.

Also, the lack of walks and power means that Ichiro! basically has to hit .330 to retain his value. When his BA dips (.310 this year), his value drops tremendously.

Abe Frohman
10-01-08, 08:53 AM
the LAST thing we need is Ichiro on this team. Another snobby overpaid veteran.

Find us an Ichiro - type 7 years younger without the contract and ego, i'll fly to Japan

myself to pick him up.

JohnnyDamonfan
10-01-08, 08:58 AM
I don't know about trading for Ichiro. Granted he is a good player and can run fast but he also old. Give me King Felix though and I will trade just about anyone for him.

MaximMan121
10-01-08, 09:31 AM
How much of that difference in batting average is due to bunts, infield hits, and little flares that dunk in? Not to denigrate those as hits, but in fact they're really not significantly more useful than walks. And Matsui is hitting for much more power while making outs at the same rate, which far outstrips the difference between walks and singles.

Also, the lack of walks and power means that Ichiro! basically has to hit .330 to retain his value. When his BA dips (.310 this year), his value drops tremendously.

I agree with both issues here. His defense and basepath speed are both tremendous, though, and do need to be taken into account. And really, Matsui has had two tough years injury wise. It's hard to predict his stats. We know what the upside is, we don't know the extent of the downside. In my business, when that's the case, you get out.

SINCE77 2
10-01-08, 09:47 AM
Thanks for the input all. I suggested this trade because it allows an upgrade in CF without giving up any of our better prospects. As fond as I am of Matsui, I'm a Yankee fan first and the fact of the matter is that the DH position is easier to fill than the CF spot. If the Yankees were able to consummate this deal or something like it, they would have more than enough chips left to contemplate obtaining Holliday to compensate for the power dropoff and to fill yet another spot in the OF.

Hellsing
10-01-08, 09:49 AM
Why does everyone want to sign ANOTHER 20 million dollar superstar? How well has that worked out for the Yankees?

Did you get this nonsense from Kellerman?

PASS on ICHIRO.
PASS on Mark-Tex.


SIGN Sabathia.
SIGN Prince Fielder.

pleasepassthesoup
10-01-08, 09:59 AM
Why does everyone want to sign ANOTHER 20 million dollar superstar? How well has that worked out for the Yankees?

Did you get this nonsense from Kellerman?

PASS on ICHIRO.
PASS on Mark-Tex.


SIGN Sabathia.
SIGN Prince Fielder.

Fielder isn't a free agent...

R.V.47
10-01-08, 10:04 AM
Ichiro is starting to get old, Id be concerned about how many more years he will be able to play CF plus his salary makes this a questionable deal.

Hellsing
10-01-08, 10:05 AM
Fielder isn't a free agent...

I know. He can be had for cheap.

My other threads have speculated what it would take...

If you sign Hudson....

Cano / Kennedy / Aceves

If you do not sign Hudson....

Kennedy / Aceves / Betances / 1 more high level prospect or a good bullpen pitcher like Edwar

webassign
10-01-08, 10:11 AM
Never gonna happen. None of you have even considered the backlash from Japanese fans.

Hellsing
10-01-08, 10:28 AM
Never gonna happen. None of you have even considered the backlash from Japanese fans.

I think people speculate that trading Ichiro for Matsui would placate the fans.

I just don't think it's fiscally sound or a wise baseball move.

I think Ichiro is a Hall of Fame caliber player, but I still do not think he belongs on this team.

Gusto
10-01-08, 10:32 AM
I know. He can be had for cheap.

My other threads have speculated what it would take...

If you sign Hudson....

Cano / Kennedy / Aceves

If you do not sign Hudson....

Kennedy / Aceves / Betances / 1 more high level prospect or a good bullpen pitcher like Edwar

Fielder is a cost controlled, legitimate power hitter, and the core of their franchise. He's ain't going anywhere.

webassign
10-01-08, 10:33 AM
I think people speculate that trading Ichiro for Matsui would placate the fans.

I just don't think it's fiscally sound or a wise baseball move.

I think Ichiro is a Hall of Fame caliber player, but I still do not think he belongs on this team.
No, Japanese fans have very strict loyalties. They would not be amused if something like this went down. It would be seen as an insult to their respective national hero that the Yankees and Mariners would disrespect them like that.

Hellsing
10-01-08, 10:46 AM
Fielder is a cost controlled, legitimate power hitter, and the core of their franchise. He's ain't going anywhere.

Probably not.
I'd still like to throw everything possible at them to see if they can pick him up.

He is arbitration eligible this year. I would like to know if Howard's recent coup will mean Fielder will get a big contract.

JL25and3
10-01-08, 11:12 AM
No, Japanese fans have very strict loyalties. They would not be amused if something like this went down. It would be seen as an insult to their respective national hero that the Yankees and Mariners would disrespect them like that.Which is why I suspect that Matsui would be unlikely to waive his NTC.

JavyVazquezIsSick
10-01-08, 11:16 AM
Matsui said he would last offseason

JL25and3
10-01-08, 11:17 AM
Matsui said he would last offseasonI don't think he was anywhere near that definite. I think he gave a noncommittal answer, which is what I'd expect.

JavyVazquezIsSick
10-01-08, 11:24 AM
I don't think he was anywhere near that definite. I think he gave a noncommittal answer, which is what I'd expect.

I remember something like this, if the Yankees want me gone then I will waive it.

yankeesnumber1
10-01-08, 12:43 PM
Interesting idea, but the media portrays him as a high maintenance and selfish player. Dont need any of those around

JL25and3
10-01-08, 12:58 PM
I remember something like this, if the Yankees want me gone then I will waive it.I remember it something more like, I'd have to see what the deal was and then I'd consider it. I remember him not ruling it out, no more.

But I could be wrong.

Edit: I did find a post by PeteAbe where he said, "Matsui has a NTC but has said he would waive it if asked." The problem is, he doesn't give a quote or a source or even if he got it directly. http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2007/12/06/could-matsui-be-on-the-market/

I raise that as a question because, according to the Daily News the next day, "Matsui has a full no-trade clause, but sources say he would be willing to waive it." That's a very different thing. I suspect no one heard Matsui say anything of the kind. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2007/12/07/2007-12-07_yankees_could_resume_their_hunt_for_joha-1.html

WashingtonYankee
10-01-08, 03:17 PM
Living in Seattle and following the Mariners, the Mariners need to get rid of Ichiro. The Mariners aren't happy with Ichiro- neither is he.

JL25and3
10-01-08, 03:52 PM
Would Ichiro! accept a trade to a team that doesn't put players' names on their uniforms?

Yankees Empire
10-01-08, 03:58 PM
Ichiro is starting to get old, Id be concerned about how many more years he will be able to play CF plus his salary makes this a questionable deal.

At some point, a point probably sooner rather than later, those infield leg hits that Ichiro gets are going to start drying up in a hurry. Do we really want to put ourselves on that big of a contractual hook for a player who will only decline from here on out?

I think there is zero chance of Ichiro performing at his established level for the balance of his contract. I also think that there's a pretty decent chance that he won't even be an effective player by the end of his contract.

He's a big name and a big draw. I see the attraction. I still think it would be a bad idea.

JavyVazquezIsSick
10-01-08, 04:00 PM
I suspect no one heard Matsui say anything of the kind.

I don't really care to back this up by looking for it, but I remember Matsui said he would waive it in an interview. I think it was at his apartment or something too. I might be crazy.

Anyways, I think he'd waive it.

Tifoso
10-01-08, 04:10 PM
Never gonna happen. None of you have even considered the backlash from Japanese fans.

You're obviously being sarcastic, right?:D

False1
10-01-08, 04:16 PM
After reading some post on this and other forums concerning Ichiro, I started speculating as to how to obtain him. Matsui will be ready for ST. Both knees repaired, I expect another typical Hideki season or maybe above average considering that its a contract year. Yankees need a competent CF and the M's need a DH (Vidro???) or potentially a part time LF should Ibanez bolt. Both players offer Japanese star power to their respective teams. Taking their respective salaries and length of contract into consideration I would make the following offer.


Matsui/Kennedy/Melky/Gardner for Ichiro

Any thoughts?


Based on other responses to this post, I'm sure I'd get flamed for this but I'd take the extra years and millions to swap out Ichiro for Matsui, although I'd probably take out Kennedy and/or Gardner and maybe swap in a lesser prospect.

Hideki Matsui OPS in '08 - .797, career .849
Ichiro Suzuki OPS in '08 - .747, career .807

Hideki Matsui - average games played last 3 seasons - 96
Ichiro last 3 seasons - 161
(Yes, I know '06 was the wrist injury, but that knee is worrisome)

Ichiro averaging over 40 SB last 3 years
Matsui averaging 2

Ichiro can play center and has a cannon arm
Matsui is a great DH and appears to be a great teammate

So basically, I'd make that trade hedging that Ichiro can play full seasons and Matsui's ability to do that is questionable given his knee. Secondarily, I'd give up 40 points of OPS because I think that is more than made up by a) the SB that get him into scoring position that OBP and SLG don't account for and b) his ability to play a critical defensive position where we are currently leaning towards starting an unproven albeit likeable Gardner and c) the real ability to replace a ~800 OPS in the DH spot in the offseason or even during the season. That's nothing against Matsui, whom I enjoy watching, and it overlooks the "drama" of Ichiro and the contract... but personally I'd pull a trade off and give Ichiro CF and our leadoff spot.

It's moot though, because Seattle ain't doing this.

Hobbes40
10-01-08, 05:20 PM
I shouldn't have mentioned OPS, because that's not really the hang up for me. The problem for me is that Matsui is only signed through this year, whereas Ichiro is signed for like...3 to 4 more years. And for all the talk about rebuilding, we would look really ugly when he, Arod, and Jeter are all in their late 30s and making almost 60 million just the 3 of them. And Ichiro is a guy who depends on his speed, and that's probably going to go within this contract.

If this was 2001, absolutely. 2004, probably. Now? Too late.

KeithF40
10-01-08, 06:21 PM
Do it in a heartbeat. You now have Ichiro to lead off and you can move Matsui and Damon, DH Posada, Tex at first, Abreu in right and Nady in left. Get tons of prospects back for Matsui and Damon who are gone after this year anyway and then you can keep Cano and his contract cause you have solved CF for a bit.

In Mo I Trust
10-01-08, 06:22 PM
Ichiro's contract is terrible, pass.

a-RobinsonCano-Fan
10-01-08, 06:30 PM
Ichiro would be a pretty terrible fit with the Yanks. We already have a pure singles hitter in Jeter.

whats wrong with first and second, no outs?

JL25and3
10-01-08, 07:24 PM
I don't really care to back this up by looking for it, but I remember Matsui said he would waive it in an interview. I think it was at his apartment or something too. I might be crazy. Of course, even if he did say it, you might be crazy. :P

False1
10-02-08, 12:17 AM
whats wrong with first and second, no outs?Bada bing!

False1
10-02-08, 12:41 AM
Ichiro's contract is terrible, pass.I don't disagree, although if he can maintain or pick up his production in 3 years his contract won't look quite so bad compared to others...

So assuming Posada can't catch, he's going to be best suited for DH. Damon will be in LF. As much as a I like the guy and respect his bat, Matsui is kind of redundant next year. So if you can unload Matsui $10MM next year and Posada can produce at Matsui-like levels in the DH spot, you've basically invested an incremental $7MM to have Ichrio patrolling CF rather than Gardner. It definitely makes sense for next year. And the years after that if A-Jax comes up and solidifies CF? We've been paying Abreu $16MM per year in RF, so it's not as if we're tripling our investment in RF. Here's some of the things I'm thinking about when considering this:

2009
An incremental $7MM gets us an outfield of Damon LF, Ichiro CF and Nady RF. As much as I like watching Gardner play, I don't think he should be handed the CF job. I'd like to see him start '09 as the 4th OFer/PR. There are really no other viable CF FA options and it seems that the popular opinion heading into next year is that AJax won't be ready. The Yanks could shift Damon back to CF and re-sign Abreu or sign a Dunn or Burrell, but I'm imagining Abreu is going to want multiple years and Dunn or even Burrell would cost every bit as much as Ichiro. Plus, Damon in CF would clearly be sub-optimal.

2010
Assume all goes swimmingly and AJax takes CF. Shift Ichiro to RF. Could consider re-signing Damon or Nady for LF, or go after Holliday or Jason Bay. I like the sound of Holliday LF, AJax CF and Ichiro RF. If AJax is not ready, there are zero good CF options lining up for 2010 free agency. Talk about Jeter moving to CF is just that - talk.

Going into '11 and '12, $17MM may not look like so much. And although I haven't seen hard evidence of this in either the case of Matsui or Ichiro, the speculation is that they drive significant revenues from both domestic and overseas fans. And no one is more popular than Ichiro. Imagine him in NY.

Again, I don't know why I'm putting quite so much thought into this, since Seattle is unlikely to trade Ichrio, especially for a Matsui package.

Which brings us full circle - who the heck gets CF next year???

JL25and3
10-02-08, 05:41 AM
So assuming Posada can't catchAssuming Posada can't catch, they'd better concentrate on finding a catcher even more than a center fielder.

Damon(MVP)
10-02-08, 07:39 AM
Ichiro is starting to get old, Id be concerned about how many more years he will be able to play CF plus his salary makes this a questionable deal.

Who cares about his salary your not paying it, I'm sure he can play CF and be very productive until Austin is ready whenever that may be, I would make the deal because CF is more of a need than DH in 09 and basically you are trading players who are about the same age, I will probably drop dead if I see Gardner or that other guy again (Melky) in CF in 09.

MaximMan121
10-02-08, 09:56 AM
Who cares about his salary your not paying it, I'm sure he can play CF and be very productive until Austin is ready whenever that may be, I would make the deal because CF is more of a need than DH in 09 and basically you are trading players who are about the same age, I will probably drop dead if I see Gardner or that other guy again (Melky) in CF in 09.

Honestly, I hate this argument. There's always a limit to what the Yankees can spend. It's not as though they can just tack him on, and carry on as normal. If we get Ichiro, his contract WILL keep us from signing others, at a certain point. I still want Ichiro, don't get me wrong, but every time someone makes this argument, baby jesus kills a kitten.

ppa79
10-02-08, 09:58 AM
Who cares about his salary your not paying it, I'm sure he can play CF and be very productive until Austin is ready whenever that may be, I would make the deal because CF is more of a need than DH in 09 and basically you are trading players who are about the same age, I will probably drop dead if I see Gardner or that other guy again (Melky) in CF in 09.

Why don't we trade for Zito too?

BennyTheJetRodriguez
10-02-08, 10:59 AM
Never gonna happen. None of you have even considered the backlash from Japanese fans.
LOL backlash? What are they going to do? Seriously. I don't see that being a factor at all, particularly not for the Yankees.

MaximMan121
10-02-08, 11:49 AM
LOL backlash? What are they going to do? Seriously. I don't see that being a factor at all, particularly not for the Yankees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

THEBOSS84
10-02-08, 11:49 AM
I want Matsui off the team, but not while taking on Ichiro.

JL25and3
10-02-08, 11:56 AM
Honestly, I hate this argument. There's always a limit to what the Yankees can spend. Yes, there's a limit. But they're hugely profitable, and are about to become even more hugely profitable.

They may not want to spend more. But I don't think they've come close to the limit of what they can spend while still turning a tidy profit.

MaximMan121
10-02-08, 02:18 PM
Yes, there's a limit. But they're hugely profitable, and are about to become even more hugely profitable.

They may not want to spend more. But I don't think they've come close to the limit of what they can spend while still turning a tidy profit.

Well, sure....but that wasn't the point. I don't like the argument that "it's not your money, why not spend it" because there is a theoretical endpoint to the dollars getting spent.

Even if that endpoint is after we sign CC and Teixeira, and are up to $210 million, I'd rather spend cash on an effective asset than a non-effective asset, and that argument doesn't discriminate between the two.

Johnycque
10-02-08, 02:23 PM
Yes, there's a limit. But they're hugely profitable, and are about to become even more hugely profitable.

They may not want to spend more. But I don't think they've come close to the limit of what they can spend while still turning a tidy profit.

They can probably spend twice as much on players and still turn a profit but they don't want to pay the tax and I don't blame them. Cashman was on ESPN today talking about this.

False1
10-02-08, 02:43 PM
Yes, there's a limit. But they're hugely profitable, and are about to become even more hugely profitable.

They may not want to spend more. But I don't think they've come close to the limit of what they can spend while still turning a tidy profit....especially in the first year of the new stadium, after the way this year ended and after looking at the costs of admission next year. I get the feeling the Yanks will unload a bunch of $$ from the books this offseason, but will sink a good chunk of that back in. And if they don't/can't back up the truck for CC/Tex? They'll definitely have money to spend on positional upgrades. Let's hope they spend it wisely.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
10-02-08, 02:44 PM
Yes, there's a limit. But they're hugely profitable, and are about to become even more hugely profitable.

They may not want to spend more. But I don't think they've come close to the limit of what they can spend while still turning a tidy profit.
Its not about what the Yankees can spend. Its about what they are willing to give to other teams through revenue sharing. If the Rays win the world series this year Yankee management should get WS rings.

False1
10-02-08, 02:45 PM
Assuming Posada can't catch, they'd better concentrate on finding a catcher even more than a center fielder.I don't disagree, but this thread is kind of focused on CF, no? :)

JavyVazquezIsSick
10-02-08, 02:50 PM
Assuming Posada can't catch, they'd better concentrate on finding a catcher even more than a center fielder.

How are they going to know if Posada can catch this offseason?

bigjf
10-02-08, 05:20 PM
After reading some post on this and other forums concerning Ichiro, I started speculating as to how to obtain him. Matsui will be ready for ST. Both knees repaired, I expect another typical Hideki season or maybe above average considering that its a contract year. Yankees need a competent CF and the M's need a DH (Vidro???) or potentially a part time LF should Ibanez bolt. Both players offer Japanese star power to their respective teams. Taking their respective salaries and length of contract into consideration I would make the following offer.


Matsui/Kennedy/Melky/Gardner for Ichiro

Any thoughts?




If the M's would take that, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

bigjf
10-02-08, 05:25 PM
Ichiro would be a pretty terrible fit with the Yanks. We already have a pure singles hitter in Jeter.

Yeah, how dare they get another singles hitter to outshine Jeter...

Argue about his recent attitude issue if you want, but don't use a positive in his game to argue why the Yanks SHOULDN'T get him, that's ridiculous!

Ichiro is a terrific outfielder with great speed and an amazing arm, whether in CF or RF. He plays literally every day and does it well. He's 35, but if the M's would actually take that package, without even including Hughes or Jackson or Melancon, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

SINCE77 2
10-02-08, 05:36 PM
Yeah, how dare they get another singles hitter to outshine Jeter...

Argue about his recent attitude issue if you want, but don't use a positive in his game to argue why the Yanks SHOULDN'T get him, that's ridiculous!

Ichiro is a terrific outfielder with great speed and an amazing arm, whether in CF or RF. He plays literally every day and does it well. He's 35, but if the M's would actually take that package, without even including Hughes or Jackson or Melancon, I wouldn't give it a second thought.




Ah, the big picture. The ability to trade for another impact player.;)

JL25and3
10-02-08, 05:57 PM
Well, sure....but that wasn't the point. I don't like the argument that "it's not your money, why not spend it" because there is a theoretical endpoint to the dollars getting spent.

Even if that endpoint is after we sign CC and Teixeira, and are up to $210 million, I'd rather spend cash on an effective asset than a non-effective asset, and that argument doesn't discriminate between the two.OK, I agree with that completely.

I'm very much in favor of overspending (if necessary) on the very best - Sabathia or Alex Rodriguez (sorry, Johnnycque). But, like you, I don't like overspending on things like #4 starters and middle relievers, especially when you're overspending in terms of years as well as salary.

But I sometimes have a problem with the opposite argument as well, one that can go something like this: they should sign Bobby Abreu if they can get him for $12M, but not at $16M. Why? He's no better a player at $12M than $16M. If he's the player they want, of course they should negotiate, but then they should do what they have to. If they don't want him, they shouldn't want him at either price. (Years are a different story. Abreu will be a different player four years from now.)

Yankees47
10-02-08, 05:59 PM
After reading some post on this and other forums concerning Ichiro, I started speculating as to how to obtain him. Matsui will be ready for ST. Both knees repaired, I expect another typical Hideki season or maybe above average considering that its a contract year. Yankees need a competent CF and the M's need a DH (Vidro???) or potentially a part time LF should Ibanez bolt. Both players offer Japanese star power to their respective teams. Taking their respective salaries and length of contract into consideration I would make the following offer.


Matsui/Kennedy/Melky/Gardner for Ichiro

Any thoughts?





Ichiro is the last thing the Yanks need...An aging bitch and whiny superstar well past his prime making primo bucks over the next few years....

JL25and3
10-02-08, 05:59 PM
I don't disagree, but this thread is kind of focused on CF, no? :)Well, this isn't the CF thread. The argument was that if Posada can't catch, Matsui is excess baggage, hence trade for Ichiro! I say if Posada can't catch, CF can wait.

JL25and3
10-02-08, 06:03 PM
Its not about what the Yankees can spend. Its about what they are willing to give to other teams through revenue sharing. If the Rays win the world series this year Yankee management should get WS rings.Correct me if I'm wrong...but I don't think revenue sharing depends on payroll.

Their revenue-sharing bill won't be so big anyway, because at least some of the building costs can be deducted. It's still money they pay out, but not to the other teams.

teknetic
10-02-08, 06:04 PM
Ichiro is the last thing the Yanks need...An aging bitch and whiny superstar well past his prime making primo bucks over the next few years....

I wonder how many players past their prime manage to accumulate 213 hits and 43 stolen bases to go along with a .310 BA..

THEBOSS84
10-02-08, 06:26 PM
I wonder how many players past their prime manage to accumulate 213 hits and 43 stolen bases to go along with a .310 BA..

Those numbers looked great next to his OPS+ of 102.

Are you saying you'd be ok taking on his contract?

False1
10-02-08, 06:32 PM
Well, this isn't the CF thread. The argument was that if Posada can't catch, Matsui is excess baggage, hence trade for Ichiro! I say if Posada can't catch, CF can wait.Or, I don't know, maybe try to solve for both positions? So you're saying if Posada can't catch Gardner should start simply because C is a higher priority to solve for? Why not solve for both? Please explain.

JL25and3
10-02-08, 06:41 PM
Or, I don't know, maybe try to solve for both positions? So you're saying if Posada can't catch Gardner should start simply because C is a higher priority to solve for? Why not solve for both? Please explain. That's really not what I said at all.

False1
10-02-08, 09:32 PM
Those numbers looked great next to his OPS+ of 102.

Are you saying you'd be ok taking on his contract?OPS+ doesn't take in to acount that 43 of his singles were actually doubles (oversimplifying for SB of course, but you get the point), nor that his speed helps him to score on occassion when someone with a 110 OPS+ might not be able to. And when your 3B coach is Windmill Bobby, that's an especially good thing ;)

Personally, considering the relative upgrade in the CF position he would be and the fact that he definietly makes sense for the next two years at least, I'd be ok with his contract.

Again, assuming Matsui won't have a home in LF or the DH spot, we'd basically get Ichiro for $7MM this year. $7MM for a 102 OPS+, 43 stolen bases and a cannon arm in CF. We got an OPS+ of 70 this year from Melky. That's an ENORMOUS upgrade. I like Gardner, but we can't bank on him as more than a 4th OF yet. And AJax looks like the real deal, but it wouldn't hurt to have Ichiro in hand in case he doesn't come up on the timetable folks would like. If AJax does come up and prosper, meet your new RF.

False1
10-02-08, 09:37 PM
That's really not what I said at all.Can you clarify then?

I said
...assuming Posada can't catch, he's going to be best suited for DH. and went on to explain how subbing Ichiro for Matsui - if that were feasible - would be a big upgrade in CF.

You said
Assuming Posada can't catch, they'd better concentrate on finding a catcher even more than a center fielder.I replied that I didn't disagree, but was talking specifically about CF.

Were you just making a rhetorical comment? What's your point?

THEBOSS84
10-02-08, 09:57 PM
OPS+ doesn't take in to acount that 43 of his singles were actually doubles (oversimplifying for SB of course, but you get the point), nor that his speed helps him to score on occassion when someone with a 110 OPS+ might not be able to. And when your 3B coach is Windmill Bobby, that's an especially good thing ;)

Personally, considering the relative upgrade in the CF position he would be and the fact that he definietly makes sense for the next two years at least, I'd be ok with his contract.

Again, assuming Matsui won't have a home in LF or the DH spot, we'd basically get Ichiro for $7MM this year. $7MM for a 102 OPS+, 43 stolen bases and a cannon arm in CF. We got an OPS+ of 70 this year from Melky. That's an ENORMOUS upgrade. I like Gardner, but we can't bank on him as more than a 4th OF yet. And AJax looks like the real deal, but it wouldn't hurt to have Ichiro in hand in case he doesn't come up on the timetable folks would like. If AJax does come up and prosper, meet your new RF.

All understood, but you are not taking into account that his contract lasts longer than just 2009...at a high AAV. I would never take him under the circumstances you mentioned. Don't forget, as his speed goes, so does his value.

JL25and3
10-02-08, 10:05 PM
Can you clarify then?

I said and went on to explain how subbing Ichiro for Matsui - if that were feasible - would be a big upgrade in CF.

You said I replied that I didn't disagree, but was talking specifically about CF.

Were you just making a rhetorical comment? What's your point?My point is that you can't simply discuss them as if they have nothing to do with each other, not when you're making assumptions that have such huge effects.

In your scenario, if they discover that Posada can't catch, he becomes the DH, Matsui becomes extraneous, you can trade Matsui for Ichiro! I'm saying if Posada can't catch, yes, that's a much higher priority than CF. I've said that I don't know if Gardner is more than a fourth OF - but I'd definitely rather take a chance on him than go with Molina as the starting catcher.

If Posada can catch, would you trade him for Ichiro!? I assume you wouldn't. But the effect is exactly the same as in your scenario: you have an upgraded CF, a DH, and no catcher.

If they can solve both, of course that's ideal. But if we start with your premise, I wouldn't be making any big deals for a CF until the catching's taken care of. Matsui becomes available, sure, but that doesn't make it an opportunity to make this deal - because this deal just became a whole lot less important.

You ask what my point is, and I guess I'd ask the same about yours. I don't think you can really say "well, we're discussing CF" as if the rest doesn't exist. I'm not sure what the point of that is.

ThePinStripes
10-02-08, 10:24 PM
Yeah, I keep reading that. If it's true, then somebody needs to have a long talk with Ichiro!, because he's not helping his team the way he could.

Are we really still judging a player's offensive contribution based on batting average?

Ichiro!: .331/.377/.430
Matsui: .295/.371/.478

except Matsui has two bad knees.

teknetic
10-02-08, 10:41 PM
Those numbers looked great next to his OPS+ of 102.

It's Ichiro, who cares about his OPS+? The dude posted an OPS+ of 126 in his MVP year. I just found it funny that someone labeled him as "past his prime" after a season in which he still put together an excellent year (unless we've somehow come to accept 213 hits/43 SB from the leadoff spot as the norm)


Are you saying you'd be ok taking on his contract?

No. But I'd be open to it, I put him and Jeter in the same category as guys who still have a good 3-4 years in them. His contract is outrageous, but I think something could be worked out that favors both teams. I don't see this happening however.

False1
10-03-08, 01:18 AM
My point is that you can't simply discuss them as if they have nothing to do with each other, not when you're making assumptions that have such huge effects.

In your scenario, if they discover that Posada can't catch, he becomes the DH, Matsui becomes extraneous, you can trade Matsui for Ichiro! I'm saying if Posada can't catch, yes, that's a much higher priority than CF. I've said that I don't know if Gardner is more than a fourth OF - but I'd definitely rather take a chance on him than go with Molina as the starting catcher.

If Posada can catch, would you trade him for Ichiro!? I assume you wouldn't. But the effect is exactly the same as in your scenario: you have an upgraded CF, a DH, and no catcher.

If they can solve both, of course that's ideal. But if we start with your premise, I wouldn't be making any big deals for a CF until the catching's taken care of. Matsui becomes available, sure, but that doesn't make it an opportunity to make this deal - because this deal just became a whole lot less important.

You ask what my point is, and I guess I'd ask the same about yours. I don't think you can really say "well, we're discussing CF" as if the rest doesn't exist. I'm not sure what the point of that is.I have no idea why you're approaching this as if I'm arguing against the importance around the C situation for next year. I never said CF was a higher priority than catcher, although I think if Posada becomes the de facto DH you could still argue on both sides of that issue. The thread was started around whether a deal of Ichro for Matsui and prospects would make sense for the Yankees. I think it would, regardless of the catching situation. Melky - enough said. Gardner - I'm a fan, but huge risk to assume he can perform at this point. Matsui would be redundant in the situation I presented; therefore planting Ichiro in CF would be a massive upgrade.

We need starting pitching more than anything else... should I not post thoughts on trade proposals at all until the rotation for '09 is fully ironed out?

Again, as this is pure speculation and I doubt the M's would trade Ichiro (and almost certainly not for a Matsui package) I didn't think it would ruffle feathers to comment on the proposed deal.

False1
10-03-08, 01:24 AM
All understood, but you are not taking into account that his contract lasts longer than just 2009...at a high AAV. I would never take him under the circumstances you mentioned. Don't forget, as his speed goes, so does his value.Actually I did take that into account. See post #54. I laid out '09 and '10 scenarios. After that, his contract does get concerning but unless AJax becomes what we think he can and we develop a young, cost-controlled RFer, do you really think we'll land a free agent right fielder in 2010 for radically less than $17MM that would radically outperform him?

I don't see any signs of degradation in Ichiro's speed. I think a change of scenery would be good for Ichiro. And even folks that don't like his attitude can't claim he doesn't have the intestines for NYC.

JL25and3
10-03-08, 04:34 AM
I have no idea why you're approaching this as if I'm arguing against the importance around the C situation for next year. I never said CF was a higher priority than catcher, although I think if Posada becomes the de facto DH you could still argue on both sides of that issue. The thread was started around whether a deal of Ichro for Matsui and prospects would make sense for the Yankees. I think it would, regardless of the catching situation. Melky - enough said. Gardner - I'm a fan, but huge risk to assume he can perform at this point. Matsui would be redundant in the situation I presented; therefore planting Ichiro in CF would be a massive upgrade.

We need starting pitching more than anything else... should I not post thoughts on trade proposals at all until the rotation for '09 is fully ironed out?

Again, as this is pure speculation and I doubt the M's would trade Ichiro (and almost certainly not for a Matsui package) I didn't think it would ruffle feathers to comment on the proposed deal. It didn't ruffle my feathers, and I don't see why any big deal was made out of it in the first place. I made one short, simple comment that I thought was pretty straightforward. I'm not sure why you took offense, but I'm sorry if it came out wrong.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
10-03-08, 05:57 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong...but I don't think revenue sharing depends on payroll.

Their revenue-sharing bill won't be so big anyway, because at least some of the building costs can be deducted. It's still money they pay out, but not to the other teams.
Unless I'm mistaken you are wrong. Luxury tax penalties are included in revenue sharing, and the more you are over the luxury tax, the more money you give away to the teams you are competing with.

JL25and3
10-03-08, 06:27 AM
Unless I'm mistaken you are wrong. Luxury tax penalties are included in revenue sharing, and the more you are over the luxury tax, the more money you give away to the teams you are competing with.75% of the luxury tax payments goes to fund player benefits. The rest (if I understand correctly) provides refunds if, for example, an option isn't exercised (I think the idea is that luxury-tax payroll is based on average annual value, so option buyouts reduce that number for previous years). (CBA, Article XXIII, Section H)

Revenue-sharing contributions are a straight percentage of net local revenue. Some of the revenue-sharing pool also comes from the Central Fund, which comes from MLB television, licensing and other such revenues. None of it comes from luxury-tax payments. (CBA, Article XXIV, Sections A(9) and A(12)).

bigjf
10-03-08, 08:19 AM
But I sometimes have a problem with the opposite argument as well, one that can go something like this: they should sign Bobby Abreu if they can get him for $12M, but not at $16M. Why? He's no better a player at $12M than $16M. If he's the player they want, of course they should negotiate, but then they should do what they have to. If they don't want him, they shouldn't want him at either price. (Years are a different story. Abreu will be a different player four years from now.)

Because if you pay Abreu $16M, then the market will dictate that you're going to be paying even more for any player better than Abreu. Manny and Boras would love it if Bobby got $16M a year again. Since odds are in favor of Abreu further declining at this point given his age, $12M looks much more decent than $16M. The year he had this year with the bat dictates he probably will get offers for $15-16M, but if the Yanks can get him back at 35 years of age for a bit of a paycut (even $14M), obviously they're going to try to do what they can. Even at $16M per, I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back for 2 years, maybe with an option.

JL25and3
10-03-08, 08:23 AM
Because if you pay Abreu $16M, then the market will dictate that you're going to be paying even more for any player better than Abreu. Manny and Boras would love it if Bobby got $16M a year again. Since odds are in favor of Abreu further declining at this point given his age, $12M looks much more decent than $16M. The year he had this year with the bat dictates he probably will get offers for $15-16M, but if the Yanks can get him back at 35 years of age for a bit of a paycut (even $14M), obviously they're going to try to do what they can. Even at $16M per, I wouldn't be upset if they brought him back for 2 years, maybe with an option.As I said, you obviously try to sign him for less; you try to sign anyone for less. But if he's the player you want, don't let him walk for that amount of money.

As for the first part: if anyone pays him $16M, the market will dictate the same thing. And the decline is important, but more for years than for salary.

ajra21
10-03-08, 01:56 PM
while he'd bof the few "older" players i'd be ok with i just don't think this is gonna happen.