PDA

View Full Version : Yankee pitching staff for 2009



Pages : [1] 2

Sixty one
08-09-08, 10:16 AM
Boy does Cashman, if he's still GM, has his work cut out for him in the off season. Look at the current starting pitchers and tell me which one can be relied on for next year. Mussina having a terrific year is going to be pushing 40 and it's hard to tell whether he will be the same next year ...that is if he is signed by NY. Pettitte is questionable because of injury problems...look at his sore shoulder. Wang hopefully will be healthy and hopefully regain the form he had before his injury. Chamberlin we know has the potential to be a number one but he is still very young and will probably be on a pitch count. Hughes, Kennedy and Rasner are all questionable and need to prove themselves all over again.
Do I sense New York going after Sabathia and opening up the money vault? What do the rest of you out there in Yankee land feel will happen in the off season??

montrealer
08-09-08, 10:23 AM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good.

mrbawm
08-09-08, 10:26 AM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good.

We should get thin to average build pitchers who aren't nearly as good instead.

Jeter has very little value to other teams with his contract, he's not going to be traded anyway.

montrealer
08-09-08, 10:29 AM
We should get thin to average build pitchers who aren't nearly as good instead.

Jeter has very little value to other teams with his contract, he's not going to be traded anyway.


No....we got those too............I just hate giving long term, no trade clause contracts to guys who don`t take care of themselves.

ojo
08-09-08, 10:31 AM
not going after sabathia would be absurdity.

sabathia
wang
mussina
chamberlain
hughes

kennedy/horne spot starting.

BigCheese
08-09-08, 10:38 AM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good.

No to Sabathia because he's fat, and trade Jeter.

Good luck on this forum.

nnysiny
08-09-08, 10:38 AM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good. CC is fat, but isnt exactly mobidly obese. just look at last night's video.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=280808108
also, when was the last time a fat pitcher broke down due to his weight by age 33/34? thats when his next contract will be up. hes the best pitcher in baseball. what hes doing now is reminiscent of Randy Johnson when he was traded to the NL midseason in 1998. a lot of dollars/years should be the norm.

as for the thought of trading Jeter....what?

NYYDragoon
08-09-08, 10:40 AM
This is the hot topic nowadays, eh?

Being that that SP market was pretty much nonexistent in the winter of 2008, and given that the Hughes/Kennedy experiment failed, I think we can be pretty certain that Cash will go after Sabathia hard. There's no way he takes the same gamble two years in a row.

ace
08-09-08, 10:48 AM
If it comes down to Sabathia or Teixeira, I'll take Teixeira.

gregzzy22
08-09-08, 10:48 AM
I really don't want Sabathia, theres no chance hes going to be worth the contract hes going to get. NO CHANCE.

ojo
08-09-08, 10:58 AM
I really don't want Sabathia, theres no chance hes going to be worth the contract hes going to get. NO CHANCE.

so what? is arod worth 30 million a year? nope. not even close.

the fact is the yankees need a front of the rotation pitcher....so that SP is an advantage in NY. sabathia fits that.

free agency is a system that is set up to reward the top performers, and reward them well. are you suggesting NY not wade in the FA pool? just use their resources for good? help communities? why embrace a pittsburgh pirate model when you're not forced?

ojo
08-09-08, 11:02 AM
i should say....the point of developing homegrown pitchers is so that the yankees are not forced into the carl pavano (lg avg), kevin brown (old) signings.

going after premier talent has nothing to do with it.

JOBA RULES
08-09-08, 11:04 AM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good.

Really?

nycdoc999
08-09-08, 11:04 AM
As long as Ian Kennedy isn't on the 25 man roster, the staff will be fine...



:mad:

kan_t
08-09-08, 11:04 AM
I really want CC. A LHP power pitcher who eats innings. :drool:

6-7 years deal with CC is better than 10 years deal with Teixeira.

Also, Moose to me is a must sign (1 year with an option or 2 years). He can provide stability to our rotation.

CC
Wang
Chamberlain
Moose
Hughes

ojo
08-09-08, 11:07 AM
teixeira is a freakin first baseman. his bat isn't huge enough to go after, frankly. he's replaceable nearly every single year in FA. the uniqueness of sabathia creates leverage for NY. a lefty. an innings eater. a guy who pushes everybody in your rotation down a notch.

ever play team tennis? the advantages to a sabathia signing far, far outweigh that of a teixeira one..

kan_t
08-09-08, 11:09 AM
teixeira is a freakin first baseman. his bat isn't huge enough to go after, frankly. he's replaceable nearly every single year in FA. the uniqueness of sabathia creates leverage for NY. a lefty. an innings eater. a guy who pushes everybody in your rotation down a notch.

ever play team tennis? the advantages to a sabathia signing far, far outweigh that of a teixeira one..
Agreed. Also we need to consider that lots of our guys may need to move to 1B in the future (e.g. A-Rod).

just-blaze
08-09-08, 11:22 AM
Are the CC naysayers not witnessing how he is currently molesting the NL?
This after winning the Cy Young last year in the AL? Not going after the best pitcher in the league doesn't make much sense to me.

I dont think people gauge how unfair it will be to opposing teams having to face CC and then the next night face Joba....or vice versa. We could literally have the worst offense in the league and still win both nights.

We need to go as hard as the Yankees can at a free agent at CC. Texiera is a luxury, CC is a necessity.

amartella
08-09-08, 11:36 AM
Getting Sabathia in my opinion isn't even a question. It's a necessity. There is a very good chance that Hughes and Kennedy will be busts in the majors and we have no idea if Chamberlain will continue to be healthy. Tendinitis happens to a lot of pitchers so he should get over it. However, we cannot count on Chamberlain being the #1 in the rotation for years to come as a certainty. Giving Sabathia 7-years @$20/year isn't the ideal solution but it may be the best chance that we have over the next 5 years to grab a dominant, healthy pitcher that is in his prime. There is no reason to not do it. Case closed. We aren't the Milwaukee Brewers!

Matsui-San
08-09-08, 11:41 AM
C.C. is a must-sign. Give him whatever he wants.

Forget Teixeira and his 10-year contract demands, and go after a better value like Adam Dunn who would put up monster numbers at YS.

ace
08-09-08, 11:43 AM
so what? is arod worth 30 million a year? nope. not even close.

the fact is the yankees need a front of the rotation pitcher....so that SP is an advantage in NY. sabathia fits that.

free agency is a system that is set up to reward the top performers, and reward them well. are you suggesting NY not wade in the FA pool? just use their resources for good? help communities? why embrace a pittsburgh pirate model when you're not forced?

Alex Rodriguez is the best player in baseball, and possibly the best player of all time. He's in the discussion at the very least. Why is he not worth the most money in the league?

Bostonsfavson
08-09-08, 11:45 AM
not going after sabathia would be absurdity.

sabathia
wang
mussina
chamberlain
hughes

kennedy/horne spot starting.


Love it.

ace
08-09-08, 11:46 AM
The problem is Chamberlain and Hughes will be on innings limits again. This season has been a wash.

R.V.47
08-09-08, 11:47 AM
CC
Joba
Wang
Andy
Hughes

For Cashman the chance to have this rotation should not be a tough choice. Open the check book for CC.

genius-24
08-09-08, 11:47 AM
Alex Rodriguez is the best player in baseball, and possibly the best player of all time. He's in the discussion at the very least. Why is he not worth the most money in the league?
Alex Rodriguez is not the best player in baseball. Plz.

ace
08-09-08, 11:49 AM
I would like to know who is, then. The only other name that comes to my mind is Pujols, and A-Rod is better than him.

Bostonsfavson
08-09-08, 11:49 AM
CC
Joba
Wang
Andy
Hughes

For Cashman the chance to have this rotation should not be a tough choice. Open the check book for CC.


You'd rather have Andy rather than Moose? I love Andy, I really do, but I'm just not sure I trust him anymore (and yes, it hurts to type that).

Cheesyhoboe
08-09-08, 11:50 AM
There's a fairly good chance Mussina will get a multi-year deal if he continues to pitch like this. I wonder if he'd take a 1 year contract with a team/player option for 1 year.

genius-24
08-09-08, 11:51 AM
I would like to know who is, then. The only other name that comes to my mind is Pujols, and A-Rod is better than him.

This guy (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=405395)


and several others including pitchers.

ojo
08-09-08, 11:53 AM
Alex Rodriguez is the best player in baseball, and possibly the best player of all time. He's in the discussion at the very least. Why is he not worth the most money in the league?

my point was made to show that $$ is product of opportunity and leverage. what sabathia makes shouldn't concern us. his productivity, what he brings to the top of the rotation, what it means to the rest of the SP staff, should.

ace
08-09-08, 11:55 AM
Sabathia is going to be making Santana/Zito money for the next several years, wherever he goes. As a top 5 starter (in MLB), I'd say he's worth it but I am leary on long contracts for pitchers. The money isn't an issue when the pockets are as deep as the Yanks.

R.V.47
08-09-08, 11:56 AM
Sabathia is going to be making Santana/Zito money for the next several years, wherever he goes. As a top 5 starter (in MLB), I'd say he's worth it but I am leary on long contracts for pitchers. The money isn't an issue when the pockets are as deep as the Yanks.

The guy is an absolute workhorse as he has displayed in Milwaukee this year. I just hope all these complete games he is throwing doesnt burn out his arm.

genius-24
08-09-08, 11:59 AM
Sabathia is going to be making Santana/Zito money for the next several years, wherever he goes. As a top 5 starter (in MLB), I'd say he's worth it but I am leary on long contracts for pitchers. The money isn't an issue when the pockets are as deep as the Yanks.
and u are willing to sign Tex for 8-10 years...

and if u don't sign CC, how will our rotation shape up next year?

teknetic
08-09-08, 12:09 PM
This guy (http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=405395)


and several others including pitchers.

You're comparing pitchers to ARod? seriously?

nnysiny
08-09-08, 12:11 PM
The guy is an absolute workhorse as he has displayed in Milwaukee this year. I just hope all these complete games he is throwing doesnt burn out his arm.
these are the pitch counts in his complete games this year:
117 (in the AL)
102
106
122
110
106
103

in his complete games hes averaging 12.16 pitches per inning. hes not being overworked, hes just making a mockery out of opposing batters

amartella
08-09-08, 12:21 PM
I'm sorry but I have to just mention something unrelated in this thread. I just laughed reading the first Ian Patrick Kennedy thread that insinuated that he could turn out to be Greg Maddux in his prime. My how things change.

ojo
08-09-08, 12:26 PM
kennedy needs to learn how to pitch with his stuff. moose might be of assistance.

i want moose in NY next year though. no doubt about it.

NYDCYankee
08-09-08, 12:27 PM
Ben Sheets please.

NYYDragoon
08-09-08, 12:29 PM
Sabathia is going to be making Santana/Zito money for the next several years, wherever he goes. As a top 5 starter (in MLB), I'd say he's worth it but I am leary on long contracts for pitchers. The money isn't an issue when the pockets are as deep as the Yanks.Exactly. Nor should it be an issue to us fans. Do we want success or do we want the FO to be stingy?

genius-24
08-09-08, 12:39 PM
You're comparing pitchers to ARod? seriously?
The poster talked about best player in baseball. That includes everyone. Yes Im comparing performance of hitter and pitcher.

THEBOSS84
08-09-08, 12:41 PM
CC is a must sign. I think the only way he's not a Yankee in 09 is if he simply doesn't want to play in NY. I can't remember a time when a player made this much sense for us, especially considering the $ coming off the books from our rotation alone...$16m, $12m, $10m...assuming we don't re-sign any of Andy, Moose and Pavano.

ace
08-09-08, 12:41 PM
and u are willing to sign Tex for 8-10 years...

and if u don't sign CC, how will our rotation shape up next year?

I doubt Tex would get that long of a deal. I'd be willing to give him 5, 6, or 7 though. I also say I didn't want CC. But I'd rather have Teixeira if it came down to it.

mrmike98
08-09-08, 12:44 PM
There's a fairly good chance Mussina will get a multi-year deal if he continues to pitch like this. I wonder if he'd take a 1 year contract with a team/player option for 1 year.

He should not be given anything longer than one year.

Having said that, it's really sweet watching him this year.

Congrats Moose.

genius-24
08-09-08, 12:53 PM
I doubt Tex would get that long of a deal. I'd be willing to give him 5, 6, or 7 though. I also say I didn't want CC. But I'd rather have Teixeira if it came down to it.
I highly doubt that's gonna happen b.c Boras is his agent. It has been known that they are looking for 10 year deal.

And why a long term 1B? ARod will turn 34 next year. Jeter is 34 already. Posada is 36 I believe. Then you have hampered, OF. Some of these players might consider shifting to 1B and it will become easier if there is a spot open for them.

primetime714
08-09-08, 12:56 PM
CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose
Hughes

We need to plan to go into the year with at least 6 viable starters. Hughes and probably Joba will both be on innings limits. This year we've had 10 different starters (11 if you count that Bruney start). And 10+ seems pretty standard for us. Sabathia is a must sign or near it IMO, you won't see a pitcher this good and young in FA for a LONG time. If Moose and Pettitte want back I see no reason not to bring both of them back on a 1-year deal. If we don't we'll regret it when someone goes down.

If all 6 are healthy, put Hughes in the bullpen or AAA and limit his innings or let him work on his changeup in the minors.

continentalg5
08-09-08, 01:20 PM
The addition of a sixth starter would be a good idea to give Joba and Hughes some relief in the work load.

The question is, which Mussina/Pettite will show up next year?

teknetic
08-09-08, 01:22 PM
The poster talked about best player in baseball. That includes everyone. Yes Im comparing performance of hitter and pitcher.

So when people talk about Ruth as the best to ever play the game, do they also mention Pedro?

This year's injuries/struggles in our rotation probably is gonna force Cash to splurge on Sabathia and more. Not sure if that's a good thing, but CC not being in pinstripes next year would be extremely lame.

Brick Tamland
08-09-08, 01:28 PM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good.

I know we "root for the laundry" and all but the idea of trading Jeter away is unthinkable IMO. Jete is the Yankee captain and a first ballot hall of famer. Maybe he's declined a shade or two, or maybe he just had one bad month due to getting hit on the hands with a 96 mph fastball. In either case, if I am Cashman, there is no way I'm trading Jeter. He retires as a Yankee. He's one of the most, if not the most, important players on this team.

kirbivore
08-09-08, 01:35 PM
Alex Rodriguez is the best player in baseball, and possibly the best player of all time. He's in the discussion at the very least. Why is he not worth the most money in the league?

Best of all time? Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Williams, DiMaggio, Musial, Gehrig, Mantle, Cobb, Rose, Clemente, Bonds (pre juice)

I'd discuss them before A-Rod entered the discussion

ajra21
08-09-08, 01:50 PM
i would really both tex and CC but i just don't think that is realistic. CC will want 6-7 which is idiotic but some idiotic GM will give it too him ... i do not expect that to be cashman. tex wants 10. no one will give him that. not even the stupid GMs. he might get 7 or 8 years but even then, that is ridiculous.

i think CC is more important to us than tex but we do need to get a well rounded first baseman because that is a big problem for us.

Matsui55
08-09-08, 01:53 PM
CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Moose
Hughes

We need to plan to go into the year with at least 6 viable starters. Hughes and probably Joba will both be on innings limits. This year we've had 10 different starters (11 if you count that Bruney start). And 10+ seems pretty standard for us. Sabathia is a must sign or near it IMO, you won't see a pitcher this good and young in FA for a LONG time. If Moose and Pettitte want back I see no reason not to bring both of them back on a 1-year deal. If we don't we'll regret it when someone goes down.

If all 6 are healthy, put Hughes in the bullpen or AAA and limit his innings or let him work on his changeup in the minors.

I'll agree in part and disagree in part.

I agree that the #1 priority this offseason, even if they have to overpay, is to get CC. True #1 guys who aren't over 30 are rare- rare enough to give a 5 year deal, and maybe a 5 year deal with a vesting 6th year to. After that Joba and Wang have earned the next 2 spots.

Instead of bringing back Mussina and Pettitte (that money can be better spent on the offense- CF, 1B, moving one of Damon or Matsui, and C (or DH if Posada can C next year), I would go a slightly different direction. Gather up a bunch of 4/5 guys and go with the best 2, buit have options in reserve. There is a method to this madness, as I will explain shortly.

I have little faith in Kennedy- many here know my opinion on him- I'm not even going to consider him part of the team in 2009. However, I have much more faith in Hughes- though he might need an IP cap next year.

If I were Cashman, I would go as hard as possible after Freddy Garcia ASAP. Give him the "Leiber deal"- that is, sign him now, see if he can pitch this year (which isn't likely), but focus on 2009. Garcia is no more than a 4/5 at this stage- but that's exactly what they are asking him to be. The key for Garcia is that signing him costs nothing more than money- no draft picks, no trading prospects, just cash.

The Yanks MIGHT have some serviceable backups (short term) in Coke and Horne, who might be ready by May/June for short term roles (I don't think either one is a longer term option- Coke might actually be the 2nd lefty in the pen by July).

Thus, you need to bring in one more "vet" arm to stockpile in AAA, just in case. Garcia isn't enough. These are the Aaron Small's of the world- you grab a couple and hope one catches fire-like the Yanks are looking for with Geise today.

The reason you don't bring in other big name, big contract pitchers after Sabathia is that you simply cannot move them if they fail, or if a better younger kid comes up.

The Yanks have several nice starters moving up- McAllister, Horne, Aceves, Nova are all at high A (and will be at AA in 2009) or above. Guys who are 2-3 years away might include Brackman and Betances- if you sign a guy to a 4 or 5 year deal other than CC, you generally eliminate the chances of using any of these guys.

Further, if Hughes ever reaches the potential he has, he would essentially be a #1/2 type pitching as a #4. That would mean that the #5 guy would be the sole "weak link." You rotate a bunch of guys through that #5 spot- which let's you go with the "hot hand" rather than being stuck with an expensive vet (Garcia won't be expensive, and would be on a one-year deal).

If I was Cashman, that's where I would go for 2009.

bigjf
08-09-08, 01:58 PM
Sabathia is going to be making Santana/Zito money for the next several years, wherever he goes. As a top 5 starter (in MLB), I'd say he's worth it but I am leary on long contracts for pitchers. The money isn't an issue when the pockets are as deep as the Yanks.

Totally worth it, especially considering there are no prospects being given up. I'd also like the Yanks to target Dunn and maybe Sheets as well, but if they make no other move this off-season, CC is a must.

ajra21
08-09-08, 01:59 PM
I'll agree in part and disagree in part.

I agree that the #1 priority this offseason, even if they have to overpay, is to get CC. True #1 guys who aren't over 30 are rare- rare enough to give a 5 year deal, and maybe a 5 year deal with a vesting 6th year to. After that Joba and Wang have earned the next 2 spots.

Instead of bringing back Mussina and Pettitte (that money can be better spent on the offense- CF, 1B, moving one of Damon or Matsui, and C (or DH if Posada can C next year), I would go a slightly different direction. Gather up a bunch of 4/5 guys and go with the best 2, buit have options in reserve. There is a method to this madness, as I will explain shortly.

I have little faith in Kennedy- many here know my opinion on him- I'm not even going to consider him part of the team in 2009. However, I have much more faith in Hughes- though he might need an IP cap next year.

If I were Cashman, I would go as hard as possible after Freddy Garcia ASAP. Give him the "Leiber deal"- that is, sign him now, see if he can pitch this year (which isn't likely), but focus on 2009. Garcia is no more than a 4/5 at this stage- but that's exactly what they are asking him to be. The key for Garcia is that signing him costs nothing more than money- no draft picks, no trading prospects, just cash.

The Yanks MIGHT have some serviceable backups (short term) in Coke and Horne, who might be ready by May/June for short term roles (I don't think either one is a longer term option- Coke might actually be the 2nd lefty in the pen by July).

Thus, you need to bring in one more "vet" arm to stockpile in AAA, just in case. Garcia isn't enough. These are the Aaron Small's of the world- you grab a couple and hope one catches fire-like the Yanks are looking for with Geise today.

The reason you don't bring in other big name, big contract pitchers after Sabathia is that you simply cannot move them if they fail, or if a better younger kid comes up.

The Yanks have several nice starters moving up- McAllister, Horne, Aceves, Nova are all at high A (and will be at AA in 2009) or above. Guys who are 2-3 years away might include Brackman and Betances- if you sign a guy to a 4 or 5 year deal other than CC, you generally eliminate the chances of using any of these guys.

Further, if Hughes ever reaches the potential he has, he would essentially be a #1/2 type pitching as a #4. That would mean that the #5 guy would be the sole "weak link." You rotate a bunch of guys through that #5 spot- which let's you go with the "hot hand" rather than being stuck with an expensive vet (Garcia won't be expensive, and would be on a one-year deal).

If I was Cashman, that's where I would go for 2009.

you talk a lot of sense.

bigjf
08-09-08, 02:00 PM
CC is a must sign. I think the only way he's not a Yankee in 09 is if he simply doesn't want to play in NY. I can't remember a time when a player made this much sense for us, especially considering the $ coming off the books from our rotation alone...$16m, $12m, $10m...assuming we don't re-sign any of Andy, Moose and Pavano.

I just had to laugh that you threw that last name in there...

Matsui55
08-09-08, 02:05 PM
I know we "root for the laundry" and all but the idea of trading Jeter away is unthinkable IMO. Jete is the Yankee captain and a first ballot hall of famer. Maybe he's declined a shade or two, or maybe he just had one bad month due to getting hit on the hands with a 96 mph fastball. In either case, if I am Cashman, there is no way I'm trading Jeter. He retires as a Yankee. He's one of the most, if not the most, important players on this team.

This is AGAIN the classic case of the fan overrating intangibles over production.

Jeter is the team captain- but this isn't the military where he will inspire the troops to victory by sheer will or authority. He is just another player on the field.

Jeter is a decent hitting SS, but would be substandard ANYWHERE else on the field, except for 2B and C. Further, his defense at SS is no longer even average- sure, he comes up with a great play here and there- but he's not a "good" SS anymore. As he gets older, that will decline even further- and his bat speed, which has been in decline, will also slow.

For those who can remember Dave Winfield, when he left the Yanks he was NOWHERE near the player he was when he joined them- and Winfield was a superior athlete to Jeter. Jeter is not the same player he was in 1998, 2001 or even 2003- and never will be again.

He's also rapidly approaching his mid-30's. His contract expires in 2010, when he will be 35. At that point, the Yanks will have to find the willpower to simply thank Jeter for the years of production and move on to a new SS.

ajra21
08-09-08, 02:06 PM
Totally worth it, especially considering there are no prospects being given up. I'd also like the Yanks to target Dunn and maybe Sheets as well, but if they make no other move this off-season, CC is a must.

would you play dunn at first base?

Huktonfonix
08-09-08, 02:06 PM
CC is a must sign. I think the only way he's not a Yankee in 09 is if he simply doesn't want to play in NY. I can't remember a time when a player made this much sense for us, especially considering the $ coming off the books from our rotation alone...$16m, $12m, $10m...assuming we don't re-sign any of Andy, Moose and Pavano.

Cash is about as likely to re-sign Pavano as Epstein is to make an offer to Manny this offseason.

Matsui55
08-09-08, 02:08 PM
would you play dunn at first base?

If the Angels re-sign Tex (very likely), and the Brewers and Phillies don't make Fielder or Howard available, there might not be a better option left.

Cheesyhoboe
08-09-08, 02:10 PM
This is AGAIN the classic case of the fan overrating intangibles over production.

Jeter is the team captain- but this isn't the military where he will inspire the troops to victory by sheer will or authority. He is just another player on the field.

Jeter is a decent hitting SS, but would be substandard ANYWHERE else on the field, except for 2B and C. Further, his defense at SS is no longer even average- sure, he comes up with a great play here and there- but he's not a "good" SS anymore. As he gets older, that will decline even further- and his bat speed, which has been in decline, will also slow.

For those who can remember Dave Winfield, when he left the Yanks he was NOWHERE near the player he was when he joined them- and Winfield was a superior athlete to Jeter. Jeter is not the same player he was in 1998, 2001 or even 2003- and never will be again.

He's also rapidly approaching his mid-30's. His contract expires in 2010, when he will be 35. At that point, the Yanks will have to find the willpower to simply thank Jeter for the years of production and move on to a new SS.

Ignoring the obvious and enormous backlash the Front Office would receive from trading the face of the franchise, what exactly do you propose Jeter should be traded for? He doesn't produce as much as he used to and he has a terrible contract. It's a waste of time even thinking about this because it's a moot point. The FO will never trade Jeter.

primetime714
08-09-08, 02:12 PM
I'll agree in part and disagree in part.

I agree that the #1 priority this offseason, even if they have to overpay, is to get CC. True #1 guys who aren't over 30 are rare- rare enough to give a 5 year deal, and maybe a 5 year deal with a vesting 6th year to. After that Joba and Wang have earned the next 2 spots.

Instead of bringing back Mussina and Pettitte (that money can be better spent on the offense- CF, 1B, moving one of Damon or Matsui, and C (or DH if Posada can C next year), I would go a slightly different direction. Gather up a bunch of 4/5 guys and go with the best 2, buit have options in reserve. There is a method to this madness, as I will explain shortly.

I have little faith in Kennedy- many here know my opinion on him- I'm not even going to consider him part of the team in 2009. However, I have much more faith in Hughes- though he might need an IP cap next year.

If I were Cashman, I would go as hard as possible after Freddy Garcia ASAP. Give him the "Leiber deal"- that is, sign him now, see if he can pitch this year (which isn't likely), but focus on 2009. Garcia is no more than a 4/5 at this stage- but that's exactly what they are asking him to be. The key for Garcia is that signing him costs nothing more than money- no draft picks, no trading prospects, just cash.

The Yanks MIGHT have some serviceable backups (short term) in Coke and Horne, who might be ready by May/June for short term roles (I don't think either one is a longer term option- Coke might actually be the 2nd lefty in the pen by July).

Thus, you need to bring in one more "vet" arm to stockpile in AAA, just in case. Garcia isn't enough. These are the Aaron Small's of the world- you grab a couple and hope one catches fire-like the Yanks are looking for with Geise today.

The reason you don't bring in other big name, big contract pitchers after Sabathia is that you simply cannot move them if they fail, or if a better younger kid comes up.

The Yanks have several nice starters moving up- McAllister, Horne, Aceves, Nova are all at high A (and will be at AA in 2009) or above. Guys who are 2-3 years away might include Brackman and Betances- if you sign a guy to a 4 or 5 year deal other than CC, you generally eliminate the chances of using any of these guys.

Further, if Hughes ever reaches the potential he has, he would essentially be a #1/2 type pitching as a #4. That would mean that the #5 guy would be the sole "weak link." You rotate a bunch of guys through that #5 spot- which let's you go with the "hot hand" rather than being stuck with an expensive vet (Garcia won't be expensive, and would be on a one-year deal).

If I was Cashman, that's where I would go for 2009.

I agree with the idea of stockpiling starters in the minors in case we need them and hoping one of them pans out if we do. However when you have proven options like Pettitte and Moose who you can get on 1-year deals that IMO is almost as much of a no brainer as signing CC.

With the money coming off the books the Yankees will have plenty to spend on CC, Moose, Pettitte, AND more offense (1B and CF). Plus since Moose and Pettitte will only be signing 1 year deals there is very little financial burden there as that money can come off the books the following season.

The way I see it we have ~80M to spend this offseason.

CC- 20
Tex- 20
Moose- 12
Pettitte- 12 (he shouldn't get more than Moose)
Marte- 6 (pickup the option)
CF- Mike Cameron?- 1yr 8M?
=78M spent then if we want we can still bring in some journeyman types to give us more depth.

Moose, Pettitte, Marte, and Cameron would all be on 1 year deals which would expire following this year. Add that to money coming off the books for the likes of Damon and Matsui and next year we'll have another 60M or so coming off the books.

Plus the new stadium is supposed to bring in much greater revenue. If you read the projections the Yankees could easily support a payroll of 230M+ with the revenue the stadium will produce. That's not saying that we should be looking to increase our payroll, however we can certainly afford not to reduce it, at least not right away.

Huktonfonix
08-09-08, 02:14 PM
If the Angels re-sign Tex (very likely), and the Brewers and Phillies don't make Fielder or Howard available, there might not be a better option left.

Even if Tex, Fielder, and Howard are available, I'm not sure Dunn isn't the best option.

ajra21
08-09-08, 02:15 PM
If the Angels re-sign Tex (very likely), and the Brewers and Phillies don't make Fielder or Howard available, there might not be a better option left.

i doubt that either will be made available and i doubt we have what it takes to get them. while i like dunn he does worry me. while his OBP is awesome considering how low his average is, i just don't like us going after sluggers. i'd rather have a batting average above.290 with 20 HRs than another jason giambi.

Brick Tamland
08-09-08, 02:17 PM
This is AGAIN the classic case of the fan overrating intangibles over production.

Jeter is the team captain- but this isn't the military where he will inspire the troops to victory by sheer will or authority. He is just another player on the field.

Jeter is a decent hitting SS, but would be substandard ANYWHERE else on the field, except for 2B and C. Further, his defense at SS is no longer even average- sure, he comes up with a great play here and there- but he's not a "good" SS anymore. As he gets older, that will decline even further- and his bat speed, which has been in decline, will also slow.

For those who can remember Dave Winfield, when he left the Yanks he was NOWHERE near the player he was when he joined them- and Winfield was a superior athlete to Jeter. Jeter is not the same player he was in 1998, 2001 or even 2003- and never will be again.

He's also rapidly approaching his mid-30's. His contract expires in 2010, when he will be 35. At that point, the Yanks will have to find the willpower to simply thank Jeter for the years of production and move on to a new SS.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

Excuse me? Not the player he was in '03?

Check you books -- he's had 200+ hits in each of his last 3 seasons. He narrowly missed an MVP award in '06.

He's had one bad month this year.

primetime714
08-09-08, 02:17 PM
If the Angels re-sign Tex (very likely), and the Brewers and Phillies don't make Fielder or Howard available, there might not be a better option left.

Dunn can't play 1B, he's Ortiz bad at the position.

primetime714
08-09-08, 02:19 PM
Even if Tex, Fielder, and Howard are available, I'm not sure Dunn isn't the best option.

Dunn, is terrible at 1B. He can't be an option much less a good option at a position he can't play!

bobbymagee
08-09-08, 02:23 PM
Have you given any thought to our minor league pitchers in AAA or AA ?

nnysiny
08-09-08, 02:29 PM
Have you given any thought to our minor league pitchers in AAA or AA ?
none of them should be penciled in for next year's rotation

Matsui-San
08-09-08, 02:32 PM
i doubt that either will be made available and i doubt we have what it takes to get them. while i like dunn he does worry me. while his OBP is awesome considering how low his average is, i just don't like us going after sluggers. i'd rather have a batting average above.290 with 20 HRs than another jason giambi.
Who cares about batting average? Dunn hitting .240 with 40+ HRs and 100 walks is simply a better hitter than your hypothetical .290/20HR guy.

DJ27
08-09-08, 02:34 PM
1 - Sabathia
2 - Wang
3 - Joba
4 - Washburn
5 - Hughes

Kennedy, etc. will be needed as a 6th starter because of the innings limit on Joba & Hughes.

ajra21
08-09-08, 02:34 PM
Who cares about batting average? Dunn hitting .240 with 40+ HRs and 100 walks is simply a better hitter than your hypothetical .290/20HR guy.

that's not far off what giambi has done. dunn is just a streaky.

hitters not sluggers.

thaa
08-09-08, 02:37 PM
I really don't want Sabathia, theres no chance hes going to be worth the contract hes going to get. NO CHANCE.

But with all respect: who is usually--or, in fact, ever--"worth" these contracts? Moreover, the Yankees are, as the preliminary post says, in no position to become sniffy and cheap. They could be in an even worse position next year than they are at this moment (i.e., in August). Mussina older. Pettite older. Joba problematical. Hughes unproven goods. Kennedy: forgotten and gone. Only Wang is really likely to be dependable at the point that CC comes onto the market.

The Yankees are wealthy. What's the point of being wealthy if you have to be pitching-poor by choice? Sign the big guy and be damned.

Talk of trading Jeter is mere internet gabble.

TheHugeUnit2
08-09-08, 02:41 PM
CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Hughes

The two power guys are seperated by Wang, the two lefties are seperated too.

DJ27
08-09-08, 02:44 PM
CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Hughes

The two power guys are seperated by Wang, the two lefties are seperated too.

My wish too but I think Andy retires which is why I put Washburn there.

Godzilllllla
08-09-08, 02:49 PM
anyone who doesn't want to bring Moose back, man am i glad you are not the Yankees GM. the guy has a chance to win 20 games this year. i am not saying he will repeat that next year but it would be insane not to bring him back. i mean he's our ace right now are you kidding me? just because he ages one year and hits 40 he will suck next year? BS. without him we would be 10 games out of any playoff race right now and some of you want to kick him to the curb next year. pretty comical. this should be our rotation and it has a good chance to be so:

Joba
CC
Wang
Moose
Hughes

Hobie
08-09-08, 02:49 PM
My wish too but I think Andy retires which is why I put Washburn there.


I'm pretty sure Andy wants to pitch in the new stadium, so I expect him to be back.

teknetic
08-09-08, 02:52 PM
that's not far off what giambi has done. dunn is just a streaky.

hitters not sluggers.

Dunn leads the majors in homers. He's a complete monster with the bat, I could live with the K's and "streakiness" while he puts up 40+ dingers a year batting in front/behind of ARod.

DJ27
08-09-08, 02:54 PM
anyone who doesn't want to bring Moose back, man am i glad you are not the Yankees GM. the guy has a chance to win 20 games this year. i am not saying he will repeat that next year but it would be insane not to bring him back. i mean he's our ace right now are you kidding me? just because he ages one year and hits 40 he will suck next year? BS. without him we would be 10 games out of any playoff race right now and some of you want to kick him to the curb next year. pretty comical. this should be our rotation and it has a good chance to be so:

Joba
CC
Wang
Moose
Hughes

I love Moose. My thought is he won't be back because his new contract demands might not "fit" in NY (moreso the length of it).

montrealer
08-09-08, 02:55 PM
He should not be given anything longer than one year.

Having said that, it's really sweet watching him this year.

Congrats Moose.
That being said....if he wins 19-20 games this year he`ll be looking for a multi-year deal.......At his age I assumed money is not an issue but asking 2-3 year would not be out of line.

montrealer
08-09-08, 03:02 PM
Sabathia is going to be making Santana/Zito money for the next several years, wherever he goes. As a top 5 starter (in MLB), I'd say he's worth it but I am leary on long contracts for pitchers. The money isn't an issue when the pockets are as deep as the Yanks.
That`s my main point.......Money is not an issue. He and his agent will be asking say $25 mil per..............6-8 years. That`s the issue. Pitchers are a gamble (see Pavano) Money could be better spent filling the many other holes this team has. One pitcher will not bring a WS to this team of aging players.

NYDCYankee
08-09-08, 03:08 PM
Igawa
Ponson
Geise
Rasner
Pavano

YankeeStripes
08-09-08, 03:12 PM
Sabathia
Wang
Chamberlain
Pettite
Hughes/Whoever is pitching for Hughes when he is on the DL

HelloNewman
08-09-08, 03:26 PM
Sabathia
Wang
Chamberlain
Pettitte/Mussina (pick 1)
Garcia

First callup: Hughes
2nd callup: Best of Kennedy/Aceves/Horne/Chase Wright (seriously)/other

teknetic
08-09-08, 03:41 PM
Garcia over Hughes? Why?

montrealer
08-09-08, 03:45 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jeterde01.shtml

Excuse me? Not the player he was in '03?

Check you books -- he's had 200+ hits in each of his last 3 seasons. He narrowly missed an MVP award in '06.

He's had one bad month this year.
Well then......there`s no reason that should keep the Yankees from re-signing him to another long term contract .

JobaTheHutt
08-09-08, 03:48 PM
That`s my main point.......Money is not an issue. He and his agent will be asking say $25 mil per..............6-8 years. That`s the issue. Pitchers are a gamble (see Pavano) Money could be better spent filling the many other holes this team has. One pitcher will not bring a WS to this team of aging players.

....yeah I hope you weren't serious when you just compared a guy who is 4 years older and threw 500 less IP to a guy who hasn't had an injury problem at all.

Some people.

montrealer
08-09-08, 04:00 PM
....yeah I hope you weren't serious when you just compared a guy who is 4 years older and threw 500 less IP to a guy who hasn't had an injury problem at all.

Some people.
Fine...insert Zito if it makes you happy........my point is buying pitchers is like buying fruits............it`s a gamble. $200 mil is alot money for one guy.

montrealer
08-09-08, 04:09 PM
But with all respect: who is usually--or, in fact, ever--"worth" these contracts? Moreover, the Yankees are, as the preliminary post says, in no position to become sniffy and cheap. They could be in an even worse position next year than they are at this moment (i.e., in August). Mussina older. Pettite older. Joba problematical. Hughes unproven goods. Kennedy: forgotten and gone. Only Wang is really likely to be dependable at the point that CC comes onto the market.

The Yankees are wealthy. What's the point of being wealthy if you have to be pitching-poor by choice? Sign the big guy and be damned.

Talk of trading Jeter is mere internet gabble.


So I guess if Jeter`s intent to play till mid-40`s Yankees are obliged to re-sign him.

Messerwhitescooter
08-09-08, 04:14 PM
So I guess if Jeter`s intent to play till mid-40`s Yankees are obliged to re-sign him.
Make Jeter the player -manager, and he won't insert himself in the lineup. Any other manager feels obligated to play him, and to put him in the two hole.

AcidLake
08-09-08, 04:14 PM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers.

Hey! :mad:

HelloNewman
08-09-08, 04:15 PM
Garcia over Hughes? Why?No more coronations. Let Hughes prove he's rotation-worthy. He'll get his chance soon enough someone will get hurt next year, and pretty early in the season, too. They ALWAYS do.

The mentality of "Let's avoid having too much veteran pitching depth, if everyone stays healthy the young ones will be BLOCKED!!11!!111!!!" has to end. That's planning against the best-case scenario, and it's why we always seem to end up dumpster-diving for pitching around June and July. Let's try planning for the worst-case scenario for a change. Garcia should be relatively cheap, and moveable if Hughes arrives in a big way.

(Of course this is predicated on Garcia passing his tryout with flying colors. If he flops, it will have to be someone else.)

montrealer
08-09-08, 04:18 PM
Hey! :mad:

Nothing personal.......strictly business........

thaa
08-09-08, 05:39 PM
So I guess if Jeter`s intent to play till mid-40`s Yankees are obliged to re-sign him.

A preposterous comment. First, Jeter will not have an "intent to play toll mid-40s." Second, my point had to do with the 2009 season, and it is as good as gold: talk of trading Jeter is mere internet gabble. It will not happen, and it is not even on anyone's mind in the Yankees' front office. They're not about to be lynched.

montrealer
08-09-08, 05:41 PM
A preposterous comment. First, Jeter will not have an "intent to play toll mid-40s." Second, my point had to do with the 2009 season, and it is as good as gold: talk of trading Jeter is mere internet gabble. It will not happen, and it is not even on anyone's mind in the Yankees' front office. They're not about to be lynched.
And you know that how?

teknetic
08-09-08, 05:43 PM
Don't need CC.

RevoWution
08-09-08, 05:52 PM
I'd rather keep Jeter than A-Rod if we were to trade one of them, that's for sure.

And CC? If he wanted a ridiculous amount, then I'd think twice. He's healthy now cuz he's young. Who knows what health problems his weight will bring up when he's older...

continentalg5
08-09-08, 05:53 PM
I'd rather keep Jeter than A-Rod if we were to trade one of them, that's for sure.

And CC? If he wanted a ridiculous amount, then I'd think twice. He's healthy now cuz he's young. Who knows what health problems his weight will bring up when he's older...

Jeter over A-Rod?

CC is going to be pinstripes in 2009.

nnysiny
08-09-08, 05:56 PM
Don't need CC.
the Yankees dont need a lefty inning-eating ace?

RevoWution
08-09-08, 06:03 PM
Jeter over A-Rod?

Yeah, to me Jeter's much more consistent compared to A-Rod. Jeter's a natural leader too.

And as for CC, if he can guarantee he won't crash and burn with health issues when he hits 30 years old (not far away), then I'd sign him.

Metroidman
08-09-08, 06:04 PM
Yeah, to me Jeter's much more consistent compared to A-Rod. Jeter's a natural leader too.

And as for CC, if he can guarantee he won't crash and burn with health issues when he hits 30 years old (not far away), then I'd sign him.

Such a natural leader that we've won nothing since he became Captain

RevoWution
08-09-08, 06:07 PM
Such a natural leader that we've won nothing since he became Captain

I just like him as a player and as a person much more than A-Rod.

Maybe I'm biased :P

The Q Bomb
08-09-08, 06:07 PM
Yankee pitching staff for 2009? Anybody who can pitch more than two months without getting injured!

RevoWution
08-09-08, 06:10 PM
Yankee pitching staff for 2009? Anybody who can pitch more than two months without getting injured!

Wang will be back. And better than ever :)

genius-24
08-09-08, 07:59 PM
So when people talk about Ruth as the best to ever play the game, do they also mention Pedro?

This year's injuries/struggles in our rotation probably is gonna force Cash to splurge on Sabathia and more. Not sure if that's a good thing, but CC not being in pinstripes next year would be extremely lame.
The talk was more like MVP, best player in baseball...he didn't say best hitter.

ajra21
08-09-08, 08:02 PM
Yankee pitching staff for 2009? Anybody who can pitch more than two months without getting injured!

livan hernandez always gets his 200+ innings.

genius-24
08-09-08, 08:07 PM
I'll agree in part and disagree in part.

I agree that the #1 priority this offseason, even if they have to overpay, is to get CC. True #1 guys who aren't over 30 are rare- rare enough to give a 5 year deal, and maybe a 5 year deal with a vesting 6th year to. After that Joba and Wang have earned the next 2 spots.

Instead of bringing back Mussina and Pettitte (that money can be better spent on the offense- CF, 1B, moving one of Damon or Matsui, and C (or DH if Posada can C next year), I would go a slightly different direction. Gather up a bunch of 4/5 guys and go with the best 2, buit have options in reserve. There is a method to this madness, as I will explain shortly.

I have little faith in Kennedy- many here know my opinion on him- I'm not even going to consider him part of the team in 2009. However, I have much more faith in Hughes- though he might need an IP cap next year.

If I were Cashman, I would go as hard as possible after Freddy Garcia ASAP. Give him the "Leiber deal"- that is, sign him now, see if he can pitch this year (which isn't likely), but focus on 2009. Garcia is no more than a 4/5 at this stage- but that's exactly what they are asking him to be. The key for Garcia is that signing him costs nothing more than money- no draft picks, no trading prospects, just cash.

The Yanks MIGHT have some serviceable backups (short term) in Coke and Horne, who might be ready by May/June for short term roles (I don't think either one is a longer term option- Coke might actually be the 2nd lefty in the pen by July).

Thus, you need to bring in one more "vet" arm to stockpile in AAA, just in case. Garcia isn't enough. These are the Aaron Small's of the world- you grab a couple and hope one catches fire-like the Yanks are looking for with Geise today.

The reason you don't bring in other big name, big contract pitchers after Sabathia is that you simply cannot move them if they fail, or if a better younger kid comes up.

The Yanks have several nice starters moving up- McAllister, Horne, Aceves, Nova are all at high A (and will be at AA in 2009) or above. Guys who are 2-3 years away might include Brackman and Betances- if you sign a guy to a 4 or 5 year deal other than CC, you generally eliminate the chances of using any of these guys.

Further, if Hughes ever reaches the potential he has, he would essentially be a #1/2 type pitching as a #4. That would mean that the #5 guy would be the sole "weak link." You rotate a bunch of guys through that #5 spot- which let's you go with the "hot hand" rather than being stuck with an expensive vet (Garcia won't be expensive, and would be on a one-year deal).

If I was Cashman, that's where I would go for 2009.
What about CF?
What about 1B?
Posada as C?
what's r ur thoughts on that.

CommerceComet
08-09-08, 08:51 PM
Best of all time? Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Williams, DiMaggio, Musial, Gehrig, Mantle, Cobb, Rose, Clemente, Bonds (pre juice)

I'd discuss them before A-Rod entered the discussionRose? Oh, please. Even on his best days, he was not even the best player on his own teams. Of course, they are different styles of players but

Bench >> Rose.
Morgan >> Rose.
Foster >> Rose (at least for a couple of seasons during Rose's prime).
Perez > Rose.

Schmidt>>Rose.

With his career only about 2/3's completed: ARod >>> Rose.

Other than hit a lot of singles, Rose was not that outstanding a ball player. On another forum, I argued with someone who claimed Rose the greatest switch-hitter of all-time. I compared his five greatest seasons to Mickey Mantle's five greatest seasons. On the exact dimensions that supposedly made Rose so great (ability to get on base and score runs), the Mick's numbers exceeded Rose's and of course, on the all the power numbers Mantle's numbers just dwarfed Rose's. Without even having to do the analysis, I can assure you that ARod's best seasons are vastly superior to Rose's and when his career is over, ARod will probably have a higher OBP and will have a much higher ability to score runs. (Right now, ARod's OBP = 0.389, Rose = 0.375, ARod's R/AB = 0.2040, Rose = 0.1541).

Matsui55
08-09-08, 09:12 PM
What about CF?
What about 1B?
Posada as C?
what's r ur thoughts on that.

The hardest decision will be 1B.

I suspect the Angels will be able to sign Tex in short order- they have him already and he fits well there. I have read rumblings that Fielder and Howard might be available in trade this winter (more due to cost than performance, but not a fire sale cost). However, if both teams make the playoffs, that would be too hard to sell to their fan bases.

Thus, it appears that the best available potential 1B will be Adam Dunn. Dunn is a hard sell for me. Sure, his power is great- averaging 40 HR per for 3 straight years is good. But the other numbers are not that good, and his rep as a "soft" player doesn't do anything to improve the Yanks, who need more "edge" to their 2009 club- they have REALLY lost the fire that drove the team 10 years ago.

On the other hand, Giambi hasn't done anything beyond some hot months to validate giving him another $22M in 2009. I guess if the choice was Dunn or Giambi, I would chose Dunn, if for no other reason that he can play RF or LF and give them roster flexibility (meaning he's not a DH/1B). However, I don't view the move as anything more than a lateral move.

The Yanks will likely have an easier time filling CF. Actually, I believe that the LF situation will be tied to their decision in CF. If the Yanks go out and get a leadoff type CF, then Damon's days in NY could be over. If they get a Cameron/Jones type (salary dump for a year), then Matsui's spot is likely in trouble, as Damon will remain the leadoff hitter.

One way or the other, I expect a player with only a year left on their deal, or two at best, so they have the flexibility to move Austin Jackson up in late 2009, if his performance so dictates.

In fact, while he is a zero offensively at this stage, I could see the Yanks going after Jones from the Dodgers- he is only signed through 2009, his defense is still good, he does have some occasional (but not regular) power, and he will be available VERY cheap. In fact, if the Yanks had to give away anything more than Melky Cabrera for him, I'd be surprised- though I think he'd be cheaper than that.

In that way, they fill CF for another year, give Jackson some time in AAA, and if Jones is REALLY done, they can bring up Jackson in July/August 2009. In that scenario, Jackson would have no pressure because if Jones puts up a 2009 like 2008, it really won't be hard to be better than Jones. Its not like Melky has been better, but Melky might be best served as trade bait, or a 4th OF.

At C, I have serious doubts that Posada, even with successful surgery can really handle the full time role again. His defense was not good at all before the surgery, especially stopping baserunners in 2007 and 2008, and won't improve even with surgery. At best, the Yanks can platoon him. However, I think it is MUCH more likely that he becomes the regular DH, with 1-2 games a week at C.

I think the Yanks will spend a great deal of their winter haggling over a young C (probably one of Texas' young C), and paying a BIG price to get one. Trade options don't really exist for vet C, unless the Dodgers and Twins get stupid and put Martin or Mauer out there. In fact, I really wouldn't mind having IRod back for another year, but I seriously doubt he wants to play in Posada's shadow, or have to admit that he's a platoon C- so I suspect he and Boras find IRod a new home for 2009.

I think there is a strong possibility that the Yanks go for an overdue LF makeover as well. With Abreu, Pettitte, Mussina, Giambi, Pavano and others coming off the payroll, the Yanks could be in a good position to simply pay another team a majority of Damon and/or Matsui's contracts to take them for 2009. Matsui DOES have a no-trade, but that might not be hard to get waived if he gets to pick his team.

The reason I could see moving BOTH Damon and Matsui is to get Manny in LF. His defense is really as bad as any LF out there- but show me a better bat from the right side- especially one who will be VERY motivated against the Red Sox. I even think he would sign for less than 5 years to go to the Yanks- maybe even 3 years. The money would not be important- $15-20M is chump change to the Yanks.

Thus, the shorter version of my answer would be that I can see the Yanks deleting Giambi, Damon, Matsui, Abreu, Pettitte, Mussina, some bullpen parts, and IRod will go elsewhere.

Then, I see the Yanks adding Dunn at 1B, Manny in LF, CC as the #1 SP, making a salary dump trade for a CF (Jones, though more likely, a leadoff type) with a short contract to allow Jackson time to develop, and make a trade for a young C. Then I see the Yanks grabbing a bunch of unsigned vets to compete for the 4/5 SP and the bench spots.

teknetic
08-09-08, 09:18 PM
The talk was more like MVP, best player in baseball...he didn't say best hitter.

Really? because as far as I can remember, when discussing the best players in the game, two names usually pop up; ARod and Pujols. When was the last time you heard anyone mention Johan Santana alongsides both? Guys who make their mark every 5 days shouldn't be compared be compared to guys who excel on the field day in and day out.

This is a pretty terrible argument, whatever.

ace
08-09-08, 09:33 PM
The reason I could see moving BOTH Damon and Matsui is to get Manny in LF. His defense is really as bad as any LF out there- but show me a better bat from the right side- especially one who will be VERY motivated against the Red Sox. I even think he would sign for less than 5 years to go to the Yanks- maybe even 3 years. The money would not be important- $15-20M is chump change to the Yanks.


You would give Manny Ramirez, at age 37, a contract for 3 years and between $45 and $60 million? I wouldn't take him no matter what the years or the price.

On Damon - just ride out the contract. There's only one year left and he's really performed up to, maybe even beyond expectations. He was hurt in 2007, but his '06 was great and his '08 has been as well. Matsui was a big contributor this year before he went down, too. I'm not sure about his deal. Does he have 1 year left or 2? Either way, they won't be able to move him in the off season, coming off a big injury and entering his decline years.

The 2009 OF situation is dicey, but Teixeira has to be brought on board to stabilize 1B, in addition to adding a youthful and powerful switch hitter to the middle of the lineup, with plus defense. Don't forget how much Tex would be able to contribute with the leather - think of how valuable Tino was. Especially since the pitching staff is more groundball than K.

THEBOSS84
08-09-08, 09:40 PM
Don't need CC.

Sure as hell do.

montrealer
08-09-08, 10:24 PM
Sure as hell do.
I don`t agree either............I`d like to send the 200 mil he`ll be asking on other areas. This team has more holes than Swiss cheese. just saying.........It`s onr thing to sign a player like CC to a contract if he`s the missing piece of the puzzle buT this Yankee team has numerous pieces missing.

primetime714
08-09-08, 11:12 PM
I don`t agree either............I`d like to send the 200 mil he`ll be asking on other areas. This team has more holes than Swiss cheese. just saying.........It`s onr thing to sign a player like CC to a contract if he`s the missing piece of the puzzle buT this Yankee team has numerous pieces missing.

Right now most of our holes are in the rotation. With two of our best and most durable pitchers (Moose and Pettitte) FAs this offseason and closing in on retirement within the next couple years, where better to invest that money into than the rotation? And what better pitcher to invest in than Sabathia?

Barring another team absolutely going absurd the Yankees with the money they have available should make the best offer to Sabathia. If he really wants to play on the west coast or in the NL that badly, there's nothing you can do about that, but money shouldn't be an object as I guarantee you that you won't see a pitcher this good and this young hit free agency again for a LONG time.

NYDCYankee
08-09-08, 11:19 PM
Ben Sheets is good.

Check out what he did tonight.

TheHugeUnit2
08-09-08, 11:44 PM
Best of all time? Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Williams, DiMaggio, Musial, Gehrig, Mantle, Cobb, Rose, Clemente, Bonds (pre juice)

I'd discuss them before A-Rod entered the discussion
You're saying Bond's two seasons can justify him over A-Rod?

nnysiny
08-10-08, 03:15 AM
I don`t agree either............I`d like to send the 200 mil he`ll be asking on other areas. This team has more holes than Swiss cheese. just saying.........It`s onr thing to sign a player like CC to a contract if he`s the missing piece of the puzzle buT this Yankee team has numerous pieces missing.
he wont be asking for anything close to 200 million. he will get 160 tops

ajra21
08-10-08, 04:05 AM
You would give Manny Ramirez, at age 37, a contract for 3 years and between $45 and $60 million? I wouldn't take him no matter what the years or the price.

On Damon - just ride out the contract. There's only one year left and he's really performed up to, maybe even beyond expectations. He was hurt in 2007, but his '06 was great and his '08 has been as well. Matsui was a big contributor this year before he went down, too. I'm not sure about his deal. Does he have 1 year left or 2? Either way, they won't be able to move him in the off season, coming off a big injury and entering his decline years.

The 2009 OF situation is dicey, but Teixeira has to be brought on board to stabilize 1B, in addition to adding a youthful and powerful switch hitter to the middle of the lineup, with plus defense. Don't forget how much Tex would be able to contribute with the leather - think of how valuable Tino was. Especially since the pitching staff is more groundball than K.

i've always enjoyed having old, selfish, distracting egotistical players on my club. especially on a multiyear deal that we'll never be able to trade when we discover what i pain in the ass they are six months in.

damon is here to stay next year, unless someone asks for him. he's gonna play left again because i think the FO are right in believing he can no longer play centre on a consistent basis. you are right to say ride him out for his one year left. same goes for matsui.

tex would be an ideal guy for first because he's an all around player. good D, power. on-base skills. switch hitter. i do not believe that he will become a yankee. he wants stupid money and years. he may not get them but the angels are surely favourites to sign him, unless one of the stupid Gms (they do exsist) throw their entire bank at him.

CC - he would be a big help but he'll want 7 year at $20m. there are other teams out there who might match this, have this sneaking suspicion that we won't.

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 05:18 AM
All of this doom and gloom about the 2009 season is quite premature in my opinion. What happened this season doesn't necessarily means it's going to carry over to 2009. Without a doubt, the Yankees need to add some significant players to their roster. It's great having some young players, but you need some great talent around them that's already developed. The key is to get that developed talent while they're still in their prime.

Also, if the Yankees miss the playoffs this year, there is little question in my mind that the Yankee ownership and brass will do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening in their first season in their new ballpark. With 85M or so coming off the books, if you think that the Yankees won't spend significant money this offseason then you're fooling yourself. Don't be fooled by what Cashman didn't do last offseason, this November and December is a different time and place and he will act under the direction of his ownership to put the best team on the field. It's going to take some money which they got payroll flexibility now and they won't have to surrender some of their young talent to get these players. If they do surrender some young players, it's to get a player that you don't have to spend another 150M contract on top of already having a 200+M payroll like they did last November. Furthermore that 150M contract was significantly higher than 150M due to penalty payroll tax placed on it. This offseason the Yankees don't have to worry about all of that contract being so inflated in paying out to MLB.

Cashman is a patient man that plays his cards very close to vest. He's been waiting on this offseason for three long years. He's going to be very active and will do his best to erase what happened this season even if they do or don't play October baseball.

bucky
08-10-08, 05:56 AM
I want to retool our starting rotating. The only spots I have is Wang and Joba (I would have him on a 95 pitch count for the rest of the year). Hughes is still on the fense until he proves he can hold up and pitch. Kennedy is still in minors next year. I would definitely go after CC but the money and years being talk about is insane. Sure we need a ace but I truly believe it will be Joba so I feel 2 solid pitchers at 10M with 13- 15 wins (may be Hughes) will complete our rotation. Our 5th will come within the organization (at this point Dan Giese).

Bucky

ieddyi
08-10-08, 06:51 AM
Just say NO to Fat pitchers. He`ll be offered a ridiculous amount of cash and years no doubt by some idiot GM.

The other problem I have is that signing A-Rod for 10 years he`s more or less the cornerstone of this team now and you have to build somewhat around him.

Cash has to get this team younger and if that means trading Jeter well then get him out now while his value is still good.

Well, the facts are that fat pitchers actually hold up better than thi pitchers- a study was done by The Hardback Times

It's the fear of "fat" pitchers that's idiotic

Yankee Steve
08-10-08, 06:59 AM
Bucky, Dan Giese is 31 years old and someone whose track record does not suggest that he will be a starter that you can count on over the lone haul. Not many hitters have seen him to this point, so surprise is a weapon until his stuff is seen around the league. Next season I think you have Wang, Joba, Moose, Hughes and either CC or Sheets. I think Pettitte retires (this year has not been a lot of fun), and in the end Andy will decide he would rather be home with the kids. I think we need Moose, especially if he continues to pitch the way he has all year, down the stretch.

teknetic
08-10-08, 07:43 AM
Sure as hell do.

Fell into the sarchasm you did.

I want this season to end already, this offseason is gonna be epic.

ajra21
08-10-08, 07:43 AM
Bucky, Dan Giese is 31 years old and someone whose track record does not suggest that he will be a starter that you can count on over the lone haul. Not many hitters have seen him to this point, so surprise is a weapon until his stuff is seen around the league. Next season I think you have Wang, Joba, Moose, Hughes and either CC or Sheets. I think Pettitte retires (this year has not been a lot of fun), and in the end Andy will decide he would rather be home with the kids. I think we need Moose, especially if he continues to pitch the way he has all year, down the stretch.

wang, CC, hughes, joba (though the last two will be on innings limits somehwere between 160-180) are probably what we're hoping for. the more time that passes, the more i think they'll bring both moose and andy back because you need depth in pitching. that way we have four guys who can get 200 innings

the key to th rest of the team is having an all round first baseman. we have suffered without that. we have too many DH type players and i truly hope we get someone hold get hold up in both parts of the game.

sabermet prospectus
08-10-08, 08:52 AM
SIgn CC or lose your job cashman

Rocketbooster
08-10-08, 09:15 AM
Ooh, thank goodness you don't run the Yankees.

LOL sure - Cash is going to hold CC at gunpoint to ensure that the pitcher signs with NY. This is a free country; CC can do what he wants. Aside from that, Cash would be an idiot to go after the Michelin Man. I sure as heck do not want the Yankees committing themselves to years of a pitcher who is that big and heavy. Let CC be someone else's future headache when he starts to break down.

surge511
08-10-08, 09:27 AM
Yeah, I know everyone wants Sabathia, and there is no denying his talent and success, but with his body type, and the amount of innings he has already logged on that arm, I do have some significant concerns about giving him 20 million dollars for 5-6 years.

ppa79
08-10-08, 09:41 AM
Ooh, thank goodness you don't run the Yankees.

LOL sure - Cash is going to hold CC at gunpoint to ensure that the pitcher signs with NY. This is a free country; CC can do what he wants. Aside from that, Cash would be an idiot to go after the Michelin Man. I sure as heck do not want the Yankees committing themselves to years of a pitcher who is that big and heavy. Let CC be someone else's future headache when he starts to break down.

We need guys to pitch for us next year. Guys like Ponson, Rasner, Garcia aren't going to help us win a championship. CC will.

ppa79
08-10-08, 09:43 AM
CC, Wang, Sheets, Joba, Hughes, Pettitte

I would rather resign Pettite than Moose because for Pettite its either Yanks or retire so I can't get pick for him. I think Moose can get at least a 2 year deal out there so we'll be able to get 2 picks for him.

bucky
08-10-08, 09:46 AM
Bucky, Dan Giese is 31 years old and someone whose track record does not suggest that he will be a starter that you can count on over the lone haul. Not many hitters have seen him to this point, so surprise is a weapon until his stuff is seen around the league. Next season I think you have Wang, Joba, Moose, Hughes and either CC or Sheets. I think Pettitte retires (this year has not been a lot of fun), and in the end Andy will decide he would rather be home with the kids. I think we need Moose, especially if he continues to pitch the way he has all year, down the stretch.

You are right. Not going to happen with Dan as 5th. I just said that because of yesterday and pitching so well. I just don't think Moose will take 1 year with team option for 1 year and I don't want to long term expensive commitment to CC (or Sheets). I still want to see Hughes more before I am convinced he's ready for starting role. I agree with you on Pettitte retirement.

Bucky

ppa79
08-10-08, 09:51 AM
You are right. Not going to happen with Dan as 5th. I just said that because of yesterday and pitching so well. I just don't think Moose will take 1 year with team option for 1 year and I don't want to long term expensive commitment to CC (or Sheets). I still want to see Hughes more before I am convinced he's ready for starting role. I agree with you on Pettitte retirement.

Bucky

I don't want it either, but we need guys to pitch for us next season. If we are going to give a long term commitment to someone, I would rather give it to someone who is an elite starting pitcher than someone who is mediocre.

Hobie
08-10-08, 10:03 AM
Ooh, thank goodness you don't run the Yankees.

LOL sure - Cash is going to hold CC at gunpoint to ensure that the pitcher signs with NY. This is a free country; CC can do what he wants. Aside from that, Cash would be an idiot to go after the Michelin Man. I sure as heck do not want the Yankees committing themselves to years of a pitcher who is that big and heavy. Let CC be someone else's future headache when he starts to break down.

From Hardball times...



Tall pitchers, we find, are slightly worse-off than short pitchers, and overweight pitchers tend to perform better than their skinny brethren. Given that overweight pitchers also survive for much longer time periods in the major leagues, all else being equal, invest in fat guys. But generally, all else is not equal, in which the case the answer should be obvious: Go for the better ballplayer, always.

HBT did I study on whether or not the size of a pitcher matters. The above quote is the general consensus they came to regarding pitchers.

To me, signing CC is a no brainer.

Rocketbooster
08-10-08, 10:07 AM
We need guys to pitch for us next year. Guys like Ponson, Rasner, Garcia aren't going to help us win a championship. CC will.

I agree, but I just don't like the looks of CC. I'm thinking of the future, and I don't see this guy holding up. Plus, he had a terrible year while he was in the AL this year. Much of his success since the trade has to be due to the fact that he's in the NL.

Rocketbooster
08-10-08, 10:09 AM
From Hardball times...



HBT did I study on whether or not the size of a pitcher matters. The above quote is the general consensus they came to regarding pitchers.

To me, signing CC is a no brainer.

I think it's moot anyway. I don't remember where I read this (possibly Jon Heyman, but I'm not sure), but I read that CC in no way wants to pitch in NY. He probably wants to go out west........with our luck, probably the Angels.

teknetic
08-10-08, 10:29 AM
I think it's moot anyway. I don't remember where I read this (possibly Jon Heyman, but I'm not sure), but I read that CC in no way wants to pitch in NY. He probably wants to go out west........with our luck, probably the Angels.

Huh? I don't recall seeing anything of the sort. Are you confusing him with Felix?

ppa79
08-10-08, 10:32 AM
I agree, but I just don't like the looks of CC. I'm thinking of the future, and I don't see this guy holding up. Plus, he had a terrible year while he was in the AL this year. Much of his success since the trade has to be due to the fact that he's in the NL.

He has a terrible April. After April he was great.

Bottom line is that we need pitchers.

Hobie
08-10-08, 10:33 AM
I think it's moot anyway. I don't remember where I read this (possibly Jon Heyman, but I'm not sure), but I read that CC in no way wants to pitch in NY. He probably wants to go out west........with our luck, probably the Angels.

This?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/07/22/heyman.scoop/index.html

R.V.47
08-10-08, 10:35 AM
I think it's moot anyway. I don't remember where I read this (possibly Jon Heyman, but I'm not sure), but I read that CC in no way wants to pitch in NY. He probably wants to go out west........with our luck, probably the Angels.

Bad Idea by CC ruling out NY. His agent Im sure will have to at least tell other teams that both NY teams are interested to drive up the price.

ajra21
08-10-08, 10:37 AM
it is possible that CC will go to the dodgers or angels; it also wouldn't surprise me if someone, not the yankees, will offer him a ridiculous number of years and money to go with it.

teknetic
08-10-08, 10:39 AM
I think it's moot anyway. I don't remember where I read this (possibly Jon Heyman, but I'm not sure), but I read that CC in no way wants to pitch in NY. He probably wants to go out west........with our luck, probably the Angels.

He's been arguablly the best pitcher in baseball since April.

ajra21
08-10-08, 10:41 AM
He's been arguablly the best pitcher in baseball since April.

he had not have gone to the NL, he had a chance to compete, not win, for another cy young. that said, if the brewers could actually beat the cubs he'd get a lot fo votes in that league.

ojo
08-10-08, 10:42 AM
i am baffled at the insane notion of letting moose walk.

ajra21
08-10-08, 10:44 AM
i am baffled at the insane notion of letting moose walk.

it depends on what sort of contract he'd accept. i have solwly come around to the idea of him coming back, but the league could easily re-adjust to him.

TheGameEpisode2
08-10-08, 10:46 AM
http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cc-sabathia.jpg

He already looks good in a Yankee hat.

ajra21
08-10-08, 10:47 AM
http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/cc-sabathia.jpg

He already looks good in a Yankee hat.

is that CC? when was this taken?

Hobie
08-10-08, 10:48 AM
Bad Idea by CC ruling out NY. His agent Im sure will have to at least tell other teams that both NY teams are interested to drive up the price.

He never ruled out NY...

Nice picture of CC in the Yankees hat. LOL.

TheGameEpisode2
08-10-08, 10:49 AM
is that CC? when was this taken?

Yeah, that's Sabathia. I think it was taken during some NBA playoff game, not sure which game though. (If it was a game in Cleveland though, that would be as bad as LeBron doing it last year)

ajra21
08-10-08, 10:50 AM
He never ruled out NY...

Nice picture of CC in the Yankees hat. LOL.

no would ever rule out new york. would be daft.

nnysiny
08-10-08, 11:10 AM
i am baffled at the insane notion of letting moose walk.
i agree. hes earned it much more than Andy has, and you cant let both go. hes the ace of the staff for crying out loud, and wont cost a lot. how does the rotation improve if he leaves?

ANSKYcm
08-10-08, 11:13 AM
Let Moose go
Re-sign Pettitte
Sign Sabathia

!. Sabathia
2. Wang
3. Chamberlain
4. Pettitte
5. Hughes

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 11:31 AM
CC, Wang, Sheets, Joba, Hughes, Pettitte

I would rather resign Pettite than Moose because for Pettite its either Yanks or retire so I can't get pick for him. I think Moose can get at least a 2 year deal out there so we'll be able to get 2 picks for him.

We think alike. I definitely want to open the purse strings, for those two.

With CC, Joba, Sheets and Hughes, it offers you the chance to have those 4 rotation spots locked up for the next 5 years. It also would afford you the chance to trade Wang for a real nice bat (because it looks like we are going to need one in time.)

And yes, the Yankees have a ton of arms coming up (Brackman, Cole (hopefully), etc...) but some of those guys are far away, and you deal with working those guys into the rotation when the time actually comes.

TheMelkyWay28
08-10-08, 11:41 AM
I agree, but I just don't like the looks of CC. I'm thinking of the future, and I don't see this guy holding up. Plus, he had a terrible year while he was in the AL this year. Much of his success since the trade has to be due to the fact that he's in the NL.
That's not true at all.

Montly Splits with the Indians:
April: 6 Starts, 32 IP, 40 Hits, 33:17 K:BB, 7.88 ERA
May: 6 Starts, 44.1 IP, 41 Hits, 41:8 K:BB, 2.44 ERA
June: 5 Starts, 38 IP, 29 Hits, 44:7 K:BB, 1.89 ERA
July: 1 Start, 8 IP, 7 Hits, 5:2 K:BB, 4.50 ERA

His stats with the Indians this season:
18 Starts, 122.1 IP, 117 Hits, 123:34 K:BB, 3.83 ERA

nnysiny
08-10-08, 11:48 AM
CC had a 2.16 ERA and .591 OPS against in the AL if you take out his first 4 starts

ppa79
08-10-08, 11:52 AM
i am baffled at the insane notion of letting moose walk.

Because he is 39 years old and you don't know what you are going to get from him next year. How do you know this year isn't an aberation. At this stage the picks are so much more valuable than keeping Moose another year especially when you can use that money to go get CC.

NYYDragoon
08-10-08, 11:54 AM
Because he is 39 years old and you don't know what you are going to get from him next year. How do you know this year isn't an aberation. At this stage the picks are so much more valuable than keeping Moose another year especially when you can use that money to go get CC.That's why you keep him for a year and then put a backup plan in place in the instance that he collapses.

ppa79
08-10-08, 11:54 AM
i agree. hes earned it much more than Andy has, and you cant let both go. hes the ace of the staff for crying out loud, and wont cost a lot. how does the rotation improve if he leaves?

Because you are going to replace him with younger and superior pitchers like CC. The guy is 39 years now, there is no way you can say he will repeat this season. What if he posts an season like he did in 2007? Then we just wasted money. Moose has had a great year for us, but its time for us to cut the ties and get the picks if we can get them.

ppa79
08-10-08, 11:55 AM
That's why you keep him for a year and then put a backup plan in place in the instance that he collapses.

Why keep him for a year when you have superior pitchers in the FA market? Plus you have a chance to get two picks for him.

If you already have to have a backup plan for him then you know its not worth signing him.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:00 PM
We think alike. I definitely want to open the purse strings, for those two.

With CC, Joba, Sheets and Hughes, it offers you the chance to have those 4 rotation spots locked up for the next 5 years. It also would afford you the chance to trade Wang for a real nice bat (because it looks like we are going to need one in time.)

And yes, the Yankees have a ton of arms coming up (Brackman, Cole (hopefully), etc...) but some of those guys are far away, and you deal with working those guys into the rotation when the time actually comes.

Kennedy, Horne, Kontos backing those guys up in AAA. We'll have a lot of depth next year if we sign CC and Sheets.

However, I wouldn't trade Wang.

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:03 PM
Because you are going to replace him with younger and superior pitchers like CC. why are you choosing between CC and Moose? the Yankeees could have both, you know.

What if he posts an season like he did in 2007? Then we just wasted money. Moose has had a great year for us, but its time for us to cut the ties and get the picks if we can get them. what if he has a season like 2008? or 2006? or along the lines of his career?

taking picks in order to make the rotation worse and with less depth doesnt make any sense to me

primetime714
08-10-08, 12:05 PM
Its amazing how people will just make up reasons to not sign CC. I really hate the weight argument. First off research shows that heavier pitchers are actually more durable and less likely to get injured which works with the fact that CC has clean bill of health throughout his career. Second every scout will tell you despite his weight he is a fantastic athlete. Overweight in his case does not mean out of shape.

The money is spent better elsewhere? This is another terrible argument. I mean we've had problems in our starting rotation for a long time now and have not had a true "ace" pitcher in a while. Sabathia would give us a stabilizing force in the top of our rotation. He is arguably the best pitcher in baseball (certainly top 5), he is under 30 years old, he has pitched well in the AL, he is a lefty (bodes well for YS), he is durable, has a clean bill of health, and he is the best, young pitcher to hit FA in a LONG time. For a team that has consistently had problems in their rotation how can you argue that this is the best use of our money? Pitching wise the only other good FA starter available is Ben Sheets who has a well documented history of injuries. Offensively the only really good, young player is Teixeira who we have the money to go after even if we do sign Sabathia.

We don't need Sabathia, Joba will be our ace? Just like all Yankee fans I have high expectations for Joba, but this is premature thinking when you consider Joba has yet to throw a complete season and will be on an innings again next year. Even still though if Joba becomes the Ace we all hope he will be, how does it hurt us to have him and Sabathia?? Joba and Sabathia could be the best 1-2 combo since Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling. In a playoff series that 1-2 punch would give us a HUGE advantage.

CC only wants to play on the West Coast and in the NL, so he won't sign with the Yankees? Rumors that he may not want to play here should never prevent us from pursuing a player that could really help our team. If the Yankees make a good offer and he decides to sign elsewhere there is nothing you can do about that. However its extremely foolish to assume he won't sign here.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:06 PM
Kennedy, Horne, Kontos backing those guys up in AAA. We'll have a lot of depth next year if we sign CC and Sheets.

However, I wouldn't trade Wang.

I wouldn't trade him now.

But perhaps two years from now, before his walk year or something. They could get a very nice bat for him, if the Yankees find themselves in a need of one.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:07 PM
why are you choosing between CC and Moose? the Yankeees could have both, you know.
what if he has a season like 2008? or 2006? or along the lines of his career?


They guy is 39 years old. How often do 39 year olds can you say will give us a good season?

I want Sheets too. Sheets is superior pitcher at this stage of their careers than Moose.



taking picks in order to make the rotation worse and with less depth doesnt make any sense to me

Signing guys who are 39 years old doesn't make any sense when you have superior and younger pitchers on the FA market.

IMO opinion
CC, Sheets and 2 picks >>>>> CC, Moose, and 0 picks

primetime714
08-10-08, 12:12 PM
Because he is 39 years old and you don't know what you are going to get from him next year. How do you know this year isn't an aberation. At this stage the picks are so much more valuable than keeping Moose another year especially when you can use that money to go get CC.

You really think Moose wouldn't accept arbitration? He's going to be 40 years old. Yes he probably could get a 2 year deal on the market, but he only wants to play on the east coast which limits his options. Also after the year he is having he figures to make a decent amount in arbitration. I think he would accept arbitration. In which case I'd happily welcome him back. If he wants a 2-year deal from us and declines arbitration I'd let him walk. But Moose on a 1-year deal would be great for us because we'd still have a ton of financial flexibility as it would be a short term investment with a likely high return.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:14 PM
You really think Moose wouldn't accept arbitration? He's going to be 40 years old. Yes he probably could get a 2 year deal on the market, but he only wants to play on the east coast which limits his options. Also after the year he is having he figures to make a decent amount in arbitration. I think he would accept arbitration. In which case I'd happily welcome him back. If he wants a 2-year deal from us and declines arbitration I'd let him walk. But Moose on a 1-year deal would be great for us because we'd still have a ton of financial flexibility as it would be a short term investment with a likely high return.

I don't know what Moose would do. I really hope he is willing to test free agency after this season so we can get the picks and spend the money on CC and Sheets.

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:16 PM
I think it's a pipe dream for Yankee fans that they're going to sign both CC and Sheets. Furthermore, something tells me that the Yankees won't try to sign both of them which is why it's a pipe dream in my estimation. It's just speculation on my part so we'll see in 4-5 months what really happens with them.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:18 PM
Fell into the sarchasm you did.

I want this season to end already, this offseason is gonna be epic.

My bad, you scared me a minute there. This offseason is going to be fun. If the Yanks don't make the playoffs this year, it can get very unpredictable.

primetime714
08-10-08, 12:19 PM
I don't know what Moose would do. I really hope he is willing to test free agency after this season so we can get the picks and spend the money on CC and Sheets.

So question if you want to sign CC and Sheets are you then not pursuing Teixeira?

My thought is that we sign CC because he is a no brainer signing and go after Teixeira to improve the offense. Then with the rest of our FA money we can bring back Pettitte and/or Moose on 1-year deals to give us a strong rotation and financial flexibility for next year. Then also keep Marte and maybe sign a stop gap CF like Mike Cameron.

I just can't see us signing CC, Tex, and Sheets to long term deals in the same offseason. If I were to choose 2 I'd definitely choose CC and Tex.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:21 PM
CC, Sheets and 2 picks >>>>> CC, Moose, and 0 picks

Common sense. I love it.

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:21 PM
So question if you want to sign CC and Sheets are you then not pursuing Teixeira?

My thought is that we sign CC because he is a no brainer signing and go after Teixeira to improve the offense. Then with the rest of our FA money we can bring back Pettitte and/or Moose on 1-year deals to give us a strong rotation and financial flexibility for next year. Then also keep Marte and maybe sign a stop gap CF like Mike Cameron.

I just can't see us signing CC, Tex, and Sheets to long term deals in the same offseason. If I were to choose 2 I'd definitely choose CC and Tex.
I agree that the Yankees won't sign CC and Sheets then ignore the offense which was also a major problem this season.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:21 PM
I think it's a pipe dream for Yankee fans that they're going to sign both CC and Sheets. Furthermore, something tells me that the Yankees won't try to sign both of them which is why it's a pipe dream in my estimation. It's just speculation on my part so we'll see in 4-5 months what really happens with them.

I don't see the need to sign both when you can basically sit back and take Andy on a one year deal (assuming he doesn't retire, which he said he wants to pitch in the new YS), or re-sign Moose. CC, Wang, Joba, Andy/Moose, Phil, IPK. No need for Sheets at all...only as a fall back plan in case CC spurns us.

I thought the whole point of developing pitchers was to avoid giving out these big contracts to pitchers. I doubt Cash would give out TWO of these contracts in one offseason.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:22 PM
So question if you want to sign CC and Sheets are you then not pursuing Teixeira?

My thought is that we sign CC because he is a no brainer signing and go after Teixeira to improve the offense. Then with the rest of our FA money we can bring back Pettitte and/or Moose on 1-year deals to give us a strong rotation and financial flexibility for next year. Then also keep Marte and maybe sign a stop gap CF like Mike Cameron.

I just can't see us signing CC, Tex, and Sheets to long term deals in the same offseason. If I were to choose 2 I'd definitely choose CC and Tex.

You want Tex for ten years or Sheets for five?

I will take Sheets for five.

The Yankees don't need a stud firstbaseman. They need a Casey Kotchman type.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:24 PM
IMO opinion
CC, Sheets and 2 picks >>>>> CC, Moose, and 0 picks

Why aren't you including the picks we'd have to give up once we sign both of CC and Sheets?

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:24 PM
and its not "draft picks," its the Phillies draft picks, and the Phillies have a very good record this season. this isnt exactly a coveted spot in next year's draft.

as for near 40 year old pitchers who have been effective in recent years:
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Curt Shilling (not as healthy as Moose)
Kevin Brown
Tim Wakefield
Jamie Moyer
David Wells (not as healthy as Moose)
Kenny Rogers
etc.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:24 PM
So question if you want to sign CC and Sheets are you then not pursuing Teixeira?

My thought is that we sign CC because he is a no brainer signing and go after Teixeira to improve the offense. Then with the rest of our FA money we can bring back Pettitte and/or Moose on 1-year deals to give us a strong rotation and financial flexibility for next year. Then also keep Marte and maybe sign a stop gap CF like Mike Cameron.

I just can't see us signing CC, Tex, and Sheets to long term deals in the same offseason. If I were to choose 2 I'd definitely choose CC and Tex.

From the early signs, it looks like Tex is looking for a 10 year 200 million dollar deal. If that's the case, I say forget it.

Sheets will be cheaper and won't require the years.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:25 PM
Why aren't you including the picks we'd have to give up once we sign both of CC and Sheets?

Resign Moose, you don't get the picks for him and you give up picks to sign CC.

Sign CC and Sheets let Moose go. You get picks for Moose and give a first and a second rounder for him.

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:25 PM
From the early signs, it looks like Tex is looking for a 10 year 200 million dollar deal. If that's the case, I say forget it.

Sheets will be cheaper and won't require the years.
How do you know some stupid club won't offer Sheets 6-7 years? Once these free agents hit the market, all sound and reasoning thinking goes out the window.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:26 PM
and its not "draft picks," its the Phillies draft picks, and the Phillies have a very good record this season. this isnt exactly a coveted spot in next year's draft.

as for near 40 year old pitchers who have been effective in recent years:
Randy Johnson
Greg Maddux
Curt Shilling (not as healthy as Moose)
Kevin Brown
Tim Wakefield
Jamie Moyer
David Wells (not as healthy as Moose)
Kenny Rogers
etc.

They have been league average or worse.

You have the possibility to get a superior pitcher in the offseason in Sheets and 2 picks, but you want to sign the guy who'll be 40 next year to give us league average production.

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:27 PM
Resign Moose, you don't get the picks for him and you give up picks to sign CC.

Sign CC and Sheets let Moose go. You get picks for Moose and give a first and a second rounder for him.
What are you going to do about that great offense of ours?

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:27 PM
How do you know some stupid club won't offer Sheets 6-7 years? Once these free agents hit the market, all sound and reasoning thinking goes out the window.

Its called speculation.

Just like I don't know that some team will give Tex a 15 year contract. Nobody knows, we are just speculating.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:28 PM
Resign Moose, you don't get the picks for him and you give up picks to sign CC.

Sign CC and Sheets let Moose go. You get picks for Moose and give a first and a second rounder for him.

Gotcha. I think our offense can use an upgrade moreso than our pitching...I wouldn't lock down all this $$ on two pitchers at all.

NYYDragoon
08-10-08, 12:28 PM
Why keep him for a year when you have superior pitchers in the FA market? Plus you have a chance to get two picks for him.

If you already have to have a backup plan for him then you know its not worth signing him.Picks aside, I don't think we're landing both Sheets and Sabathia (as others have already stated).

fredgmuggs
08-10-08, 12:29 PM
How do you know some stupid club won't offer Sheets 6-7 years? Once these free agents hit the market, all sound and reasoning thinking goes out the window.
See Barry Zito signed at 7 years, $126 million plus an option for an additional year.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:30 PM
Why aren't you including the picks we'd have to give up once we sign both of CC and Sheets?

IMO, its better to lose 1 pitcher and get 2 picks for him and then sign 2 pitchers and lose picks for them.

In the end you come out ahead.

CC, Sheets, 2 picks >> CC, Moose, 1 pick

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:30 PM
Its called speculation.

Just like I don't know that some team will give Tex a 15 year contract. Nobody knows, we are just speculating.
Then speculate how do we fix our offense next season?

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:31 PM
Gotcha. I think our offense can use an upgrade moreso than our pitching...I wouldn't lock down all this $$ on two pitchers at all.

I absolutely do think, they need an offensive upgrade. I am just not sure Tex is that guy. Especially for 10 years.

Chances like this two nab two aces, don't come around often. I think the Yankees need to jump on it now, now that they have a chance. Especially, since I think the FA class after 09 isn't to deep pitching wise.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:33 PM
Then speculate how do we fix our offense next season?

There is no easy way to fix our offense until some our positional prospects develop. I would rather make a part of our team so much more superior than the other's (pitching) so we wouldn't have to rely upon it so much.

NYYDragoon
08-10-08, 12:34 PM
Gotcha. I think our offense can use an upgrade moreso than our pitching...I wouldn't lock down all this $$ on two pitchers at all.You know, I agree with you. Although you can never have enough ace starters, I think getting Sabathia or Sheets (probably Sabathia) will be enough. The offense, on the other hand, needs a pick me up.

(Specifically, I'm interested in a bat who can also play some solid defense...)

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:35 PM
Picks aside, I don't think we're landing both Sheets and Sabathia (as others have already stated).

Its a better investment than signing Moose. You don't have talents like this reach free agency all the time.

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:35 PM
You have the possibility to get a superior pitcher in the offseason in Sheets and 2 picks, but you want to sign the guy who'll be 40 next year to give us league average production.
again i have to ask...why are you picking between one or the other?

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:35 PM
There is no easy way to fix our offense until some our positional prospects develop. I would rather make a part of our team so much more superior than the other's (pitching) so we wouldn't have to rely upon it so much.
I don't agree the offense can't be improved this offseason, but I have to leave so I'll argue that point later.

Again, the Yankees won't sign both CC and Sheets and will be fortunate to sign one of them. My best prediction for this upcoming offseason.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:35 PM
The very fix this offense needs may already be on the roster, once Posada and Matsui return healthy.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:35 PM
I think getting Sabathia or Sheets (probably Sabathia) will be enough. The offense, on the other hand, needs a pick me up.

(Specifically, I'm interested in a bat who can also play some solid defense...)

You can never have enough pitching.

Rocketbooster
08-10-08, 12:36 PM
That's not true at all.

Montly Splits with the Indians:
April: 6 Starts, 32 IP, 40 Hits, 33:17 K:BB, 7.88 ERA
May: 6 Starts, 44.1 IP, 41 Hits, 41:8 K:BB, 2.44 ERA
June: 5 Starts, 38 IP, 29 Hits, 44:7 K:BB, 1.89 ERA
July: 1 Start, 8 IP, 7 Hits, 5:2 K:BB, 4.50 ERA

His stats with the Indians this season:
18 Starts, 122.1 IP, 117 Hits, 123:34 K:BB, 3.83 ERA

Thanks, Melky Way. Clearly I was mistaken about CC's performance with the Indians past April. I still wouldn't go after him - no matter what the stats say, just looking at him makes me nervous.

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:36 PM
again i have to ask...why are you picking between one or the other?


I am assuming we can have 2 of the 3 (CC, Sheets, Moose). CC is a given.
I am picking between Sheets and Moose. I would rather have Sheets than Moose.

NYYDragoon
08-10-08, 12:38 PM
Its a better investment than signing Moose. You don't have talents like this reach free agency all the time.

You can never have enough pitching.True, but I just don't see us getting both. Then again, it suppose it all depends on how 2008 ends.

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:38 PM
I am picking between Sheets and Moose. I would rather have Sheets than Moose.
but signing one doesnt prevent signing the other at all. you have two independent variables. i still dont know how this makes any sense.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:39 PM
I absolutely do think, they need an offensive upgrade. I am just not sure Tex is that guy. Especially for 10 years.

Chances like this two nab two aces, don't come around often. I think the Yankees need to jump on it now, now that they have a chance. Especially, since I think the FA class after 09 isn't to deep pitching wise.

I like Tex. I don't love Tex.

Now about the chance of landing the two aces. I think it all comes down to what the Yanks think they have in Hughes. Assuming CC is target A, they would have CC, Wang, Joba, Hughes and let's just say Andy. If they decide to sign Sheets instead of Andy, you're set with CC, Sheets, Wang, Joba, Hughes. ALL the pitching they have worked so hard to build in the minors over the past 3 years would essentially be blocked for years (obviously throwing the injury aspect to the wind). If they think Hughes can be what we think he can be, I don't think Sheets is necessary, especially not on a 4-5 year deal.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:40 PM
I am assuming we can have 2 of the 3 (CC, Sheets, Moose). CC is a given.
I am picking between Sheets and Moose. I would rather have Sheets than Moose.

That is what people aren't grasping.

Moose is going to have to be resigned too. If they want to keep him. Or he has to be replaced.

He will probably want two more years too.

So why not sign Sheets instead.

Rocketbooster
08-10-08, 12:40 PM
Its amazing how people will just make up reasons to not sign CC. I really hate the weight argument. First off research shows that heavier pitchers are actually more durable and less likely to get injured which works with the fact that CC has clean bill of health throughout his career. Second every scout will tell you despite his weight he is a fantastic athlete. Overweight in his case does not mean out of shape.

The money is spent better elsewhere? This is another terrible argument. I mean we've had problems in our starting rotation for a long time now and have not had a true "ace" pitcher in a while. Sabathia would give us a stabilizing force in the top of our rotation. He is arguably the best pitcher in baseball (certainly top 5), he is under 30 years old, he has pitched well in the AL, he is a lefty (bodes well for YS), he is durable, has a clean bill of health, and he is the best, young pitcher to hit FA in a LONG time. For a team that has consistently had problems in their rotation how can you argue that this is the best use of our money? Pitching wise the only other good FA starter available is Ben Sheets who has a well documented history of injuries. Offensively the only really good, young player is Teixeira who we have the money to go after even if we do sign Sabathia.

We don't need Sabathia, Joba will be our ace? Just like all Yankee fans I have high expectations for Joba, but this is premature thinking when you consider Joba has yet to throw a complete season and will be on an innings again next year. Even still though if Joba becomes the Ace we all hope he will be, how does it hurt us to have him and Sabathia?? Joba and Sabathia could be the best 1-2 combo since Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling. In a playoff series that 1-2 punch would give us a HUGE advantage.

CC only wants to play on the West Coast and in the NL, so he won't sign with the Yankees? Rumors that he may not want to play here should never prevent us from pursuing a player that could really help our team. If the Yankees make a good offer and he decides to sign elsewhere there is nothing you can do about that. However its extremely foolish to assume he won't sign here.

So, if anyone disagrees with you, it's because we're making excuses and can't come up with any valid reasons? Interesting. Sorry - CC is not just heavy, he's enormous; in fact, he's fat. If Santana had been a FA, I wouldn't have given him 5 years and CC is not Santana.

Ben Sheets to me is not an option. He's injury prone, for one, and how do we know he can pitch in NY?

Do we want to turn into the late 80's Yankees again, throwing $$$ after free agents? I sure don't.

Yankees1962
08-10-08, 12:41 PM
That is what people aren't grasping.

Moose is going to have to be resigned too. If they want to keep him. Or he has to be replaced.

He will probably want two more years too.

So why not sign Sheets instead.
Because Sheets will want 6-7 years.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:43 PM
I like Tex. I don't love Tex.

Now about the chance of landing the two aces. I think it all comes down to what the Yanks think they have in Hughes. Assuming CC is target A, they would have CC, Wang, Joba, Hughes and let's just say Andy. If they decide to sign Sheets instead of Andy, you're set with CC, Sheets, Wang, Joba, Hughes. ALL the pitching they have worked so hard to build in the minors over the past 3 years would essentially be blocked for years (obviously throwing the injury aspect to the wind). If they think Hughes can be what we think he can be, I don't think Sheets is necessary, especially not on a 4-5 year deal.

Do we know any of our prospects are going to be as good as Sheets? Guys like Brackman and Cole sure have the projectibility, but they are also a ways a way. In Cole's case very far away.

Prospects are to be used to fill holes on the major league level or dealt away in trades to help the team. The pitching depth can be traded away to help obtain offensive players the Yankees are going to need.

Not only that, they can help out in the bullpen. Either way, if the Yankees future rotation has Hughes/Wang/Joba in it that is 3/5th's homegrown. That in itself is very impressive, if they can contribute all the way we hope.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:45 PM
Because Sheets will want 6-7 years.

And Moose will want two years.

What if Moose is '07 Moose over the next two years?

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:47 PM
but signing one doesnt prevent signing the other at all. you have two independent variables. i still dont know how this makes any sense.


There are 3 pitchers out there. Sheets, CC, and Moose.

The Yanks will probably get 2 of the 3. I would rather take CC and Sheets.

Its not that hard.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:47 PM
Do we know any of our prospects are going to be as good as Sheets? Guys like Brackman and Cole sure have the projectibility, but they are also a ways a way. In Cole's case very far away.

Prospects are to be used to fill holes on the major league level or dealt away in trades to help the team. The pitching depth can be traded away to help obtain offensive players the Yankees are going to need.

Not only that, they can help out in the bullpen. Either way, if the Yankees future rotation has Hughes/Wang/Joba in it that is 3/5th's homegrown. That in itself is very impressive, if they can contribute all the way we hope.

I understand my post was a bit of a stretch, but as you can tell, I absolutely only want one of the two out of CC/Sheets. I hope it's CC of course. We can get by with a rotation of CC/Wang/Joba/Hughes/Andy until Beckett or Lackey become FA's (who I like MUCH MORE than Sheets).

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:48 PM
There are 3 pitchers out there. Sheets, CC, and Moose.

The Yanks will probably get 2 of the 3. I would rather take CC and Sheets.

Its not that hard.
you forgot Pettitte.

and if youre going to pick between pitchers, its picking between Andy/Moose, and CC/Sheets

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:49 PM
I understand my post was a bit of a stretch, but as you can tell, I absolutely only want one of the two out of CC/Sheets. I hope it's CC of course. We can get by with a rotation of CC/Wang/Joba/Hughes/Andy until Beckett or Lackey become FA's (who I like MUCH MORE than Sheets).

I highly doubt Beckett or Lackey will leave their respective teams.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:49 PM
There are 3 pitchers out there. Sheets, CC, and Moose.

You can have 2 of the 3. I would rather take CC and Sheets.

You do understand that CC and Sheets WILL BE the highest paid FA pitchers this year in both years and dollars right? It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be...at all.

fredgmuggs
08-10-08, 12:50 PM
I read where Sabathia wants a Zito contract. Are you guys willing to do that?

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:51 PM
you forgot Pettitte

I would rather take Pettitte over Moose because I can get picks for Moose because he'll most likely look for a 2 year deal. However, Pettitte will retire if he doesn't resign.

Production wise, I consider them a wash next year.

So I would rather take Andy and 2 picks over Moose and no picks.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:52 PM
I understand my post was a bit of a stretch, but as you can tell, I absolutely only want one of the two out of CC/Sheets. I hope it's CC of course. We can get by with a rotation of CC/Wang/Joba/Hughes/Andy until Beckett or Lackey become FA's (who I like MUCH MORE than Sheets).

Really, do you? I think they are quite similar, but Sheets is problem is that he has had injuries in past years (like Beckett before he become a RS).

I watched Sheets absolutely dominate the Nationals last night. Yes it was the Nationals, but that doesn't change the fact he was spotting his 96 mph fastball wonderfully and throwing a devastating 12-6 hook. Beckettesque actually.

I am not a big Lackey guy (just take a look at the last two games he pitched against the Yankees).

ppa79
08-10-08, 12:52 PM
You do understand that CC and Sheets WILL BE the highest paid FA pitchers this year in both years and dollars right? It's not as cut and dry as you make it out to be...at all.

You do realize that the last time pitchers of this talent reached the free agent market was 10 years ago.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 12:53 PM
I read where Sabathia wants a Zito contract. Are you guys willing to do that?

CC is a great pitcher. Zito is a terrible pitcher. The Giants are idiots.

NYYDragoon
08-10-08, 12:54 PM
I read where Sabathia wants a Zito contract. Are you guys willing to do that?Given our situation, yes.

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:55 PM
So I would rather take Andy and 2 picks over Moose and no picks.
but if you sign two FAs instead of one, you are giving up that much more in draft picks. Moose's ERA is a run lower than Andy's. they arent equals right now

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:57 PM
Really, do you? I think they are quite similar, but Sheets is problem is that he has had injuries in past years (like Beckett before he become a RS).

I watched Sheets absolutely dominate the Nationals last night. Yes it was the Nationals, but that doesn't change the fact he was spotting his 96 mph fastball wonderfully and throwing a devastating 12-6 hook. Beckettesque actually.

I am not a big Lackey guy (just take a look at the last two games he pitched against the Yankees).

You bring up what Sheets did last night, but I think he had been in a slump for around a month prior to that. Yes, I absolutely like Lackey and Beckett more than Sheets. We know what they can do in the AL as opposed to the NL Central. Lackey and Beckett's #'s from 2007 were exceptional. I know Sheets stuff may translate in the AL, but it's still a risk.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 12:58 PM
You do realize that the last time pitchers of this talent reached the free agent market was 10 years ago.

Yes which makes it even more of a stretch that ONE team will get to sign both.

nnysiny
08-10-08, 12:58 PM
I read where Sabathia wants a Zito contract. Are you guys willing to do that? yes. the chances of the Yankees getting a lefty ace out of their farm system in the next couple of years is next to zero. CC is in the middle of his prime and wont cost prospects/players like the Santana deal. the reward is much higher than the risk (money), plus CC is twice the pitcher Zito is

fredgmuggs
08-10-08, 12:59 PM
CC is a great pitcher. Zito is a terrible pitcher. The Giants are idiots.
So you don't have a problem with a 7 year contact for a guy who will be pitching at 29 years old next season?

Personally, I'm sick of being tied to these ridiculous long term deals. And I think it's lunacy to offer a pitcher more than a 5 year deal, even if that is what the marketplace dictates.

THEBOSS84
08-10-08, 01:00 PM
I'd give CC the same contract as Zito without blinking. He'll get more than that though.

ppa79
08-10-08, 01:01 PM
So you don't have a problem with a 7 year contact for a guy who will be pitching at 29 years old next season?

Personally, I'm sick of being tied to these ridiculous long term deals. And I think it's lunacy to offer a pitcher more than a 5 year deal, even if that is what the marketplace dictates.

Yes I have a problem but you want to win a championship every year, this is what you need to do until your farm is strong enough so churn out pitchers every year.

ppa79
08-10-08, 01:02 PM
but if you sign two FAs instead of one, you are giving up that much more in draft picks. Moose's ERA is a run lower than Andy's. they arent equals right now

At this stage of their careers they are equals. Last year Andy was superior to Moose, this year, its Moose. I would rather let go of the guy that will give me the picks.

NYYDragoon
08-10-08, 01:03 PM
So you don't have a problem with a 7 year contact for a guy who will be pitching at 29 years old next season?Yes. He'll be in his late 30s when it ends, which isn't so bad considering that we currently have Moose and Andy in our rotation.

NYDCYankee
08-10-08, 01:04 PM
So you don't have a problem with a 7 year contact for a guy who will be pitching at 29 years old next season?

Personally, I'm sick of being tied to these ridiculous long term deals. And I think it's lunacy to offer a pitcher more than a 5 year deal, even if that is what the marketplace dictates.

I have more of a problem with giving any type of money to old men like Moose and Andy, that aren't going to come close to CC's production.

Personally, I would let both Moose and Andy go and go very hard after CC and Sheets.

Wang
CC
Sheets
Joba
Hughes/Veteran/Kennedy

fredgmuggs
08-10-08, 01:09 PM
Yes. He'll be in his late 30s when it ends, which isn't so bad considering that we currently have Moose and Andy in our rotation.Given his girth, I'm a bit worried about what happens with him when he gets a 7 year deal.

Eh, it's not my money and I really don't care about the dough, just the years you end up being married to.

Sixty one
08-10-08, 01:24 PM
Two points to make: C.C. maybe over weight but I seem to recall that another Yankee pitcher had the same problem and pitched fairly well for many years....DAVID WELLS!

Second: who cares how much money the Yanks spend or how long a contract is....this money isn't ours!;)

ace
08-10-08, 01:44 PM
All of this doom and gloom about the 2009 season is quite premature in my opinion. What happened this season doesn't necessarily means it's going to carry over to 2009. Without a doubt, the Yankees need to add some significant players to their roster. It's great having some young players, but you need some great talent around them that's already developed. The key is to get that developed talent while they're still in their prime.

Also, if the Yankees miss the playoffs this year, there is little question in my mind that the Yankee ownership and brass will do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening in their first season in their new ballpark. With 85M or so coming off the books, if you think that the Yankees won't spend significant money this offseason then you're fooling yourself. Don't be fooled by what Cashman didn't do last offseason, this November and December is a different time and place and he will act under the direction of his ownership to put the best team on the field. It's going to take some money which they got payroll flexibility now and they won't have to surrender some of their young talent to get these players. If they do surrender some young players, it's to get a player that you don't have to spend another 150M contract on top of already having a 200+M payroll like they did last November. Furthermore that 150M contract was significantly higher than 150M due to penalty payroll tax placed on it. This offseason the Yankees don't have to worry about all of that contract being so inflated in paying out to MLB.

Cashman is a patient man that plays his cards very close to vest. He's been waiting on this offseason for three long years. He's going to be very active and will do his best to erase what happened this season even if they do or don't play October baseball.

I agree with what you're saying here. What they need to do with all of the free'd up money is invest it wisely - Tex and/or CC are clearly worth top dollar. They have to avoid the mistakes of the past, like giving the Jaret Wrights and Kyle Farnsworths of the world 3 years at $20 something million. Two guys that you could pass up on and easily get their value from a much more inexpensive option. Don't spend just for spendings sake. However, if you lose both Moose and Andy, you have to give CC a blank check.

The best part of the winter is that the best available starter will not cost the Yankees Phil Hughes.

genius-24
08-10-08, 02:08 PM
Really? because as far as I can remember, when discussing the best players in the game, two names usually pop up; ARod and Pujols. When was the last time you heard anyone mention Johan Santana alongsides both? Guys who make their mark every 5 days shouldn't be compared be compared to guys who excel on the field day in and day out.

This is a pretty terrible argument, whatever.
From your perspective, not mine.

Don Mack
08-10-08, 03:34 PM
You'd rather have Andy rather than Moose? I love Andy, I really do, but I'm just not sure I trust him anymore (and yes, it hurts to type that).

I don't trust Pettitte at all. He just gave up 2 runs to allow the Angels to tie the game and he's ready to give up more so he can take an early shower. 3-2 Angels. He has been terrible over his last several games.

Notice almost all of the posts on here have Mussina on their lists, but not Pettitte. I hope Andy doesn't return.

Rocketbooster
08-10-08, 03:38 PM
It's the Yankees own fault for sending a tired Andy Pettitte out there. He should be resting..........that said, why am I not surprised? I don't expect the Yankees to score for the rest of the game.

Yankees47
08-10-08, 10:44 PM
I think we are all forgetting that we have been RAVAGED with injuries to our starting staff this year....Next Year you have Wang back who I always have thought is the best #2 in baseball and looked to have improved his arensial from what I saw this season...You will have a full year of Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes hopefully next season and I believe Joba is an Ace and that Phil could also be a solid front line starter...I would bring back either Moose or Andy but not both and would go into the market for CC Sabathia...

My Rotation next year

Joba, CC, Wang, Petitte, Hughes....Trade IPK by the way

ajra21
08-11-08, 04:45 AM
andy pettitte was tired and still gave us better than a (minimum) quality start. how are people blaming him or the decision to send him out there? i remember last year about this time he said he was tired and then had a dominating stretch.

as for the rotation next year, everyone is seemingly around the same sort of names: wang, joba, hughes, (hopefully) CC, and then one/both of pettitte and/or mussina. no one is calling for kennedy, ponsons, rasner etc.

ucfjon
08-11-08, 07:20 AM
Sabathia-Wang-Joba-Mussina-Hughes

make it happen

cyhughes22
08-11-08, 02:56 PM
Sabathia-Wang-Joba-Mussina-Hughes

make it happen

We would still need Pettitte or someone else at the back end of the rotation you're suggesting. Phil is going to be on an innings limit again next season because of being injured the past 2 years. Someone else is going to have to make some starts for that to work. Not to mention that there will inevitably be at least one injury in the starting rotation.

CommerceComet
08-11-08, 03:13 PM
Personally, I would let both Moose and Andy go and go very hard after CC and Sheets.Personally, I would re-sign Moose. I think that his transition to a crafty, "mediocre-stuff" pitcher is complete and there is good reason to think that he could have a couple of more good seasons. I haven't made up my mind about Andy. However, if for essentially the same money, we could replace Andy with either CC or Sheets, I would do it in a heartbeat, even if it were a relatively-long term contract.

While it would be nice to have both CC and Sheets, I don't think it's going to happen. The Brewers will suck it up, free up the resources, and re-sign one of them (Sheets, most likely), although I am very skeptical that the Brewers could ante up to re-sign both.

AROD800HRS
08-11-08, 03:28 PM
I see people keep mentioning Joba in the rotation next year, and I agree that's where he should/will be, but due to him starting this year in the pen and his current injury, what will his innings limit look like next year?

ArodMVP217
08-12-08, 11:33 AM
So you don't have a problem with a 7 year contact for a guy who will be pitching at 29 years old next season?

Personally, I'm sick of being tied to these ridiculous long term deals. And I think it's lunacy to offer a pitcher more than a 5 year deal, even if that is what the marketplace dictates.

Then we aren't going to get Sabathia, and if you don't want to offer ben sheets 4-5, you won't have him either.

I expect Cashman! to be in negotiations with CC, Ben, Mark and others

Mr.Muhozi
08-12-08, 11:37 AM
i want cc to be part of our 4 ace rotation next year, (joba, cc,wang,phil) but i wonder, why are people so confident that he will be out there in pinstripes at new yankee stadium

THEBOSS84
08-12-08, 11:57 AM
i want cc to be part of our 4 ace rotation next year, (joba, cc,wang,phil) but i wonder, why are people so confident that he will be out there in pinstripes at new yankee stadium

I'm fairly confident that we have what it takes to offer him the biggest and best contract. Whether he wants to play in NY or not should be the deciding factor.

YESSIR!
08-12-08, 12:00 PM
Haven't read the thread, but no doubt we should put together this:

CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Mussina
Hughes

That rotation is very solid and it has depth. best part is, we have all the parts except for CC. If we don't acquiore him, we can pick up a solid middle of the rotation guy, and still have a great 1-5 with the names I listed, minus CC.

teknetic
08-12-08, 12:00 PM
If CC has no qualms about being a Yankee then he'll be a Yankee. I can't see any other team making a better offer, especially with the amount of dough coming off the books this and next year.

R.V.47
08-12-08, 12:37 PM
If CC has no qualms about being a Yankee then he'll be a Yankee. I can't see any other team making a better offer, especially with the amount of dough coming off the books this and next year.

He has apparently said he wants to pitch on the west coast but looking at west coast teams I dont see anyone there who can make an offer comparable to what the yanks could give him. The Angels dont really need him and they will probably make Tex their number 1 priority. The Dodgers might be a factor but other than that I dont see any other west coast team making a serious run at him.

THEBOSS84
08-12-08, 12:50 PM
He has apparently said he wants to pitch on the west coast but looking at west coast teams I dont see anyone there who can make an offer comparable to what the yanks could give him. The Angels dont really need him and they will probably make Tex their number 1 priority. The Dodgers might be a factor but other than that I dont see any other west coast team making a serious run at him.

I think if the LAD aren't a factor in the CC bidding, we will win it easily. Mid market teams can't take the risk of CC being the next Zito. Texas is a team that may be ga-ga over him.

Ynkcpt23
08-12-08, 12:59 PM
I think if the LAD aren't a factor in the CC bidding, we will win it easily. Mid market teams can't take the risk of CC being the next Zito. Texas is a team that may be ga-ga over him.

Just heard that about Texas myself. If the West Coast teams don't make a serious run for him then I can see him in pinstripes, but for whatever reason I'm still very pessimistic about us landing him. Texas has plenty of $$, but will they make that kind of commitment?

R.V.47
08-12-08, 01:02 PM
Just heard that about Texas myself. If the West Coast teams don't make a serious run for him then I can see him in pinstripes, but for whatever reason I'm still very pessimistic about us landing him. Texas has plenty of $$, but will they make that kind of commitment?

Its a double edges sword if he goes to Texas. On one hand he has one of the best offenses in the league behind him but he also has to pitch in that ballpark which has been a graveyard for pitchers. Texas may be able to match the offer the yanks give but it just wouldnt be a wise decision for CC to go there.

THEBOSS84
08-12-08, 01:07 PM
Its a double edges sword if he goes to Texas. On one hand he has one of the best offenses in the league behind him but he also has to pitch in that ballpark which has been a graveyard for pitchers. Texas may be able to match the offer the yanks give but it just wouldnt be a wise decision for CC to go there.

True. It's NYY/LAD or bust the way I see it.

Let's narrow down the bidders (besides NYY/LAD):

Boston - no need for him, plus they will owe Beckett a large payday the following season.

LAA - I can't imagine them signing both him and Tex. With Lackey/Saunders/Santana/Escobar/Garland/Weaver...no need

Mariners - no way

Cubs - Would they be willing to have two pitchers in their rotation signed to 100+M contracts? Don't think so

Mets - same as Cubs

Rangers - If CC has a choice between Yankee $ and Ranger $, you would think it would be no contest

White Sox - hmmm. I think this could be the wild card here.

Anyone else?

THEBOSS84
08-12-08, 05:57 PM
Promising quote from Hanky:


"We're going to win it next year," he said. "If we need to add a top veteran pitcher, we'll do that. We'll do whatever we need to do. Next year we'll be extremely dangerous."

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spstein0813,0,5300669.story

thaa
08-12-08, 06:03 PM
Haven't read the thread, but no doubt we should put together this:

CC
Wang
Joba
Pettitte
Mussina
Hughes

That rotation is very solid and it has depth. best part is, we have all the parts except for CC. If we don't acquiore him, we can pick up a solid middle of the rotation guy, and still have a great 1-5 with the names I listed, minus CC.

Mussina and Pettitte: another year older (and Pettitte is showing signs of it lately); Joba: I hope, but we'll have to see about that shoulder. Hughes: a series of big question marks. Perhaps he'll begin erasing them this September, but if they're still there at the end of the season....

Yankee Tripper
08-12-08, 06:21 PM
I'm think we go something like:

Wang
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy
Horne

Whose with me?

THEBOSS84
08-12-08, 06:22 PM
I'm think we go something like:

Wang
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy
Horne

Whose with me?

BOOOOOOO!

teknetic
08-12-08, 06:28 PM
I'm think we go something like:

Wang
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy
Horne

Whose with me?

So..worst case scenario (which has been the case with nearly everything this year)? Yea, sounds about right.

Yankee Tripper
08-12-08, 06:30 PM
BOOOOOOO!Well 6 months ago I think that was what more than a few were hoping for.

In Mo I Trust
08-12-08, 06:31 PM
CC
Sheets
Wang
Joba
Hughes


Go big or go home.