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YanksFan1992
07-18-08, 12:00 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/heymans-lates-2.html


Given Richie Sexson's expected part-time role, the Yankees are in the market for an everyday outfielder to replace Hideki Matsui's bat. Barry Bonds is not under consideration. Heyman tosses out names such as Matt Holliday, Xavier Nady, Jason Bay, and Adam Dunn,



The Yanks are also looking to add a #3-4 starter type.
Here's the list of possibilities
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/the-starting-pi.html

webassign
07-18-08, 12:03 PM
That article is like a week old.

YanksFan1992
07-18-08, 12:05 PM
That article is like a week old.

Both rumors are from this post (which is from today):
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/heymans-lates-2.html

I just added that extra link because it had a list of the possibilities. :o

tribros
07-18-08, 12:06 PM
That article is like a week old.

The day Heyman breaks any worthwhile news will be the first.

webassign
07-18-08, 12:25 PM
I went through the list and most of it is either garbage or going to command too high of a price for us to be contenders.

And Heyman basically just threw out the same names that have been discussed for like the past few weeks.

ShaneTravis
07-18-08, 12:28 PM
I have been a broken record the last 2 years now on how Dunn would be a great fit and sooner or later could find himself on the Yanks roster.

Jason Bay would be ideal though.

tribros
07-18-08, 12:31 PM
WFAN must be paying Heyman big bucks to be their MLB insider. He was on with Russo last week and went through trade ideas that everyone had already heard. An hour after he was on the air, Harden was traded. Heyman hadn't even mentioned him.

CT-Yankee
07-18-08, 05:22 PM
Heyman always gives you what everyone else says. Never anything new. I did read somewhere though the Atl GM issuing a no comment about trading Texeira before the deadline. If this is a possibility, Cashman better go full bore right after him.

IndyYankeesFan
07-18-08, 05:25 PM
Question...is Matsui for sure out for the rest of the season?

YanksFan1992
07-18-08, 05:30 PM
Question...is Matsui for sure out for the rest of the season?
That's what is sounds like, but there's been no word on his medical tests yet.

yank4life2005
07-18-08, 06:38 PM
Matt Kemp is the answer.

Prison Mike
07-18-08, 07:40 PM
Matt Holliday is the answer- but Kemp is a good Plan B.

ZYanksRule
07-19-08, 12:20 PM
Holliday or Bay would be really great, but I doubt we get them without giving up a huge prospect.

Allan
07-19-08, 02:30 PM
Matt Kemp is the answer.
To what question?

Prison Mike
07-19-08, 03:53 PM
Holliday or Bay would be really great, but I doubt we get them without giving up a huge prospect.

Then we'll have to give up a huge prospect. I'm not interested in doing that for Bay, though.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-19-08, 06:50 PM
You don't like outstanding hitters in their prime?

ppa79
07-19-08, 07:10 PM
You don't like outstanding hitters in their prime?

Too bad he isn't an outstanding hitter away from Coors.

Prison Mike
07-19-08, 07:47 PM
If you're referring to Holliday, he's an outstanding hitter at Coors and still a very good hitter away from it.

I'd happily take my chances with his .400 OBP away from Coors this season.

ppa79
07-19-08, 08:05 PM
If you're referring to Holliday, he's an outstanding hitter at Coors and still a very good hitter away from it.

I'd happily take my chances with his .400 OBP away from Coors this season.


He is Hideki Matsui away from Coors with better defense.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-19-08, 08:41 PM
Too bad he isn't an outstanding hitter away from Coors.

I was referring to Bay

teknetic
07-19-08, 08:52 PM
He is Hideki Matsui away from Coors with better defense.

That's a bad thing?

ppa79
07-19-08, 08:54 PM
That's a bad thing?

Depends on who you are giving up. I wouldn't give up AJ for him

Prison Mike
07-20-08, 02:08 AM
He is Hideki Matsui away from Coors with better defense.

You have unrealistic expectations of Jackson if you wouldn't trade him for Hideki Matsui's production from a RH 28-year old.

KeithF40
07-20-08, 02:37 AM
With Dunn and Burrell as FAs at the end of the year along with Bradley making a big trade for an OF is not a good decision. Damon should be back very soon, what is the problem with him playing left and sticking someone at DH like Betemit, Duncan, or Sexson or even having Damon DH with Gardner in left and hitting ninth with all his speed. I like Gardner better as a pinch runner though, I think he should be on the 25 next year for solely that purpose and as a fourth outfielder cause Matsui definitely can't play the OF anymore.

Giving up Jackson or Tabata for an OF is ridiculous. These are top 25 prospects who are going to make next to nothing until they hit arb and then even then they are gonna make Cano/Wang money if they are even that good.

Holliday's splits suck, if you can pick him up for IPK and Ohlie or someone sure but not for the real future, having 2 studs who can play the field and make no money is how you build a dynasty.

I think Bay comes alot cheaper than Holliday so I think you focus on him, or if you get Nady that's good too, they are both very good players, Bay better obv.

Definitely do not trade for Dunn, you can get him as a FA. Ohlie yes I'd trade him for Dunn but not IPK, that's not a good idea.

Supply is high on corner OFs for some reason, use that to your advantage and also the tons of upper level pitching prospects the Yankees have.

ppa79
07-20-08, 07:02 AM
You have unrealistic expectations of Jackson if you wouldn't trade him for Hideki Matsui's production from a RH 28-year old.

Why would a trade a potential impact CF for a corner outfielder for Matsui's production. Finding an impact CF is much more difficult than finding a corner outfielder that posts an OPS of .860. On top of that he'll cost me 15+ for the next 6-7 years.

ppa79
07-20-08, 07:03 AM
Giving up Jackson or Tabata for an OF is ridiculous. These are top 25 prospects who are going to make next to nothing until they hit arb and then even then they are gonna make Cano/Wang money if they are even that good.
.

Depending on how Jackson finishes he might end up a top 10 prospect. In the latest BA rankings he was 14. He is on fire right now. The guy has 4 out of 5 tools and plays a premium positon.

KeithF40
07-20-08, 07:35 AM
Currently Holliday is better player than AJ, obv. In 3 years he'll be a better hitter but is not playing CF and is gonna make a ton of money and is also older. These are the reasons why you don't trade for him. It's not like his addition is all of a sudden gonna bring this team to 110 wins and a WS so why bother, this team is far from a WS and his addition is not going to do it. Developing your own players is key then going out and getting role players and the occasional big name FA to fill the spots is how you win.

Andy/Mo/Jeter/Posada/Bernie/Mendoza were a big part of the 90s and they were all home grown. You can keep salaries down to go out and get guys at the positions that you don't currently have anyone good at in your AA/AAA clubs. Get yourself a Tino and O'Neill and then a Knob/Brosius role type player, although they were above average role players.

You have the core with Jeter, AROD, Cano, Wang, Hughes, IPK, Joba and some really nice minor leaguers in AA/AAA. Yankees currently don't have a really appealing 1B or LF guy so go out and sign 2 players there in the offseason and a SP, you got Mo and Posada signed to long deals and pick up a lefty bullpen arm but don't trade away our future, and low salary players, when you can get a solid player like Dunn in the offseason along with Tex and CC/Sheets/Burnett, I'd like 2 of these guys actually cause idk about IPK.

KeithF40
07-20-08, 07:46 AM
How does this look for 2010:

CF-Jackson
SS-Jeter
LF-Dunn
3B-AROD
1B-Tex
2B-Cano
C-Posada
RF-Tabata
DH-????

SP-Wang
SP-CC/Sheets/Burnett
SP-Joba
SP-Hughes
SP-FA/IPK/Horne

SU-Marte
SU-Cox
CL-Rivera

Rest of bullpen and bench fill in your own guys

Salary wise:
Lose Giambi, Farns, Hawk, Mat, Damon, Pavano, Muss, Andy, Abreu(23+8.5+3+13+13+10+10+16=76.5)

Gain Dunn, Tex, Marte, Number 2 starter(15+18+6+18=57)

Net loss of about 20M, that will definitely cover the increase in salaries due to arb from Wang, Cano, Joba, Hughes

Comparison:
CF Jackson>Melky
LF Dunn>Mat/Damon
1B Tex>Giambi
RF Tabata=Abreu
DH should be a wash against the Mat/Damon combo

SP Number 2 starter>>Andy
SP Number 5 should be a wash with Muss

Marte/Cox>Farns/Hawk

Only worse thing about this team is decline from Mo/Posada/Jeter but that will surely be made up from improvment of Joba/Hughes/Cano

Yankee Steve
07-20-08, 08:03 AM
I find it absolutely amazing that you think that Tabata = Abreu, Dunn is better than Damon/Matsui, and that IPK and Hughes are part of the "core". Tabata has never played a game about AA, IPK and Hughes combined to win 0 games this year, and Dunn is a strikeout machine with little range in the vast meadow that is LF at Yankee Stadium (either the old or new). All of these could work out in the end, but it is the "certainty" with which you present the plan that would scare me a bit.

VinnyTheMick
07-20-08, 08:40 AM
I would be hesitant to trade Tabata or Jackson for say a Nady. It seems extremely short-sighted & I thought we were moving away from that kind of thinking.

KeithF40
07-20-08, 09:09 AM
Abreu is NOT THAT GOOD. Idk why everyone, including MLB 2K8 for XBOX 360, thinks Abreu is a solid player. His OPS+ has dropped every year for the last 3, this year it is at 109. He has AROD hitting behind him for protection and can still only muster this pitiful production for a corner outfield for the New York Yankees. I watch almost every game and I want to throw up half the time he comes to the plate, I only got to go to one game last year cause tix are so damn exp and sitting in the upper deck sucks, but I booed him every single at bat.

He's a total goof in right too.

Dunn is a stud, he's a 40/100 guy every year with a career 131 adjusted ops. This year will make 5 straight 40 HR seasons without a great guy hitting behind him covering him. He does strike out a ton though I'll def give you that.

With Hughes and IPK I'm saying that they could def be the part of a core for many years to come and they are going to make next to nothing, just like AJ and Tabata for the next five years, esp compared to some high priced guys with more service. Hughes and IPK getting injured is not something you can plan for, but having all these old farts getting injured should not be a surprise, that's what happens to old farts.

I'm just really tired of overpaying for every player on the roster, signing old guys to long contracts where they fall apart at the end and are still making tons of money, and having log jams at all the old men positions.

Dunn can also play first, I think he's a good backup plan when Tex demands 20M.

Matsui is a total diaster in the fact that when he plays he's great, but when he doesn't he is injured and has no trade value, so we'll probably get stuck in a perpetual don't trade him he's mashing the ball and the don't trade him he's injured and has no value, so he'll play out his contract.

yank4life2005
07-20-08, 09:10 AM
I would be willing to part with Tabata but not Jackson in a package for Holliday.

KeithF40
07-20-08, 09:11 AM
Error

KeithF40
07-20-08, 09:32 AM
Giving up Tabata is ok cause we get a replacement in Holliday. Thing is how much are we gonna have to pay him after next year, where he is going to make 13.5, which I am willing to pay.

Look at his splits also 300 points OPS difference, and it's not just playing at home, Coors, while not what it was, is still a hitters park with a park factor for batters of around 110.

HELTON, ATKINS, TUL ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 200 OPS points lower on road. BARF. At Yankee stadium put him at say

1.081-.2=.881
then keep road at .790

Average is .835

Matsui career OPS .856

Now put Holliday against AL pitchers and at a stadium that is not good for rightys and see what he does.

Still want Holliday?

yanksphan
07-20-08, 09:46 AM
Giving up Tabata is ok cause we get a replacement in Holliday. Thing is how much are we gonna have to pay him after next year, where he is going to make 13.5, which I am willing to pay.

Look at his splits also 300 points OPS difference, and it's not just playing at home, Coors, while not what it was, is still a hitters park with a park factor for batters of around 110.

HELTON, ATKINS, TUL ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL 200 OPS points lower on road. BARF. At Yankee stadium put him at say

1.081-.2=.881
then keep road at .790

Average is .835

Matsui career OPS .856

Now put Holliday against AL pitchers and at a stadium that is not good for rightys and see what he does.

Still want Holliday?

If they played the game strictly on paper, you'd have a point.

Fortunately they don't, so all you have is conjecture.

ppa79
07-20-08, 09:49 AM
If they played the game strictly on paper, you'd have a point.

Fortunately they don't, so all you have is conjecture.

But is it a risk that you would be willing to take knowing this information? Paying him 15+ and giving up guys like AJ, Kennedy, Melancon, etc. Not me.

NYKforever
07-20-08, 09:59 AM
I'd deal for Nady if it was a package centered around middle-tier prospects (Ohlendorf, McCutchen, etc).


I don't really know what the Pirates are doing, they are not going to compete. They might as well ship off their valuable pieces: Nady, Bay, Marte, Wilson for prospects and rebuild that team around McClouth, McCutchen and soon-to-be Pedro Alvarez.

mycroft
07-20-08, 10:05 AM
Holliday or Bay would be really great, but I doubt we get them without giving up a huge prospect.

Well Pittsburgh has come out and said Bay and Nady were both available for the right price and that price would be top prospects. It is apparent we could use either one of these right handed bats but as of today I would think Nady would be the one. He is young, right handed, hitting .324 this year with 12 HRs. Damon is a liability in left and we need a right handed bat. Since Pittsburgh seems to be offering I would look for some left handed bullpen help while we are at it. As far as I am concerned they can have any of our overrated, minor league chucker, prospects in return. 21 runners stranded on base is obscene and yesterday's game against Oakland is a microcosm of this season and our need for more offensive punch has never been more apparent.

And while I am here it is becoming increasingly obvious that Posada's days as an everyday catcher, well for this year anyway, have passed and his shoulder problems are beginning to make him a defensive liability. What Girardi will have to do is figure out how to keep Posada's bat in the game while giving Giambi his time and Molina will have to do most of the catching.

If we are to move up and make the playoffs we need better offense but we cannot sacrifice defense. We need at least one effective left handed pitcher in the bullpen and a 5th starter. Rasner is going to be given another start and has the inside track but he is on a very short string. The pressure on him to pitch well is unfair but no one ever said playing in NY was always fair. If Rasner blows up look for the Yankees to increase their efforts to find someone outside the organization to fill the void. Why we didn't try to get Sabathia is curios.

Prison Mike
07-20-08, 10:05 AM
I wouldn't even give up McCutchen for Nady. He's playing way over his head this year, and his BABIP proves it (.358).

He's due to come back to earth soon.

yanksphan
07-20-08, 10:05 AM
But is it a risk that you would be willing to take knowing this information? Paying him 15+ and giving up guys like AJ, Kennedy, Melancon, etc. Not me.

I wouldn't give up those kids for Holliday regardless of that "information" as I'd like to see the kids develop.

I was just pointing out that you can't apply absolute mathematical theories to humans who are subjective to outside influences.

mhmajp
07-20-08, 10:10 AM
I'd deal for Nady if it was a package centered around middle-tier prospects (Ohlendorf, McCutchen, etc).

Cuctch is no middle tier prospect. He's got a much higher ceiling than that.

themgmt
07-20-08, 10:11 AM
Who would want Dunn over Holliday? Another lefty- strikes out way too much- average is too low be a 3 hitter (although his OBP makes up for it), and moves like a slug. He definitely can't play LF at Yankee Stadium. Let's not forget he plays in Great American Ballpark either.. nobody mention's his home road splits and this is why the splits aren't gospel. Every year of his career his home OPS has been .50-100+ points higher than his road OPS, until this year, they switched.


Dunn 05-07
Home - .960 OPS
Road - .855 OPS

Dunn 08
Home - .901
Road - .952


Holliday is a stud outfielder. His splits have gotten better year by year and I wouldn't doubt he puts up a .880+ OPS as a Yankee while playing a stellar left field. He's had a .860 Road OPS this year and last year. Let's also not forget he plays in the NL West so he plays a lot of his road games in huge pitcher's parks. And he's right handed..I'd trade any position player aside from Jackson/Montero. Tabata would be a loss but I'd do it. All pitchers but Hughes/Kennedy (don't sell low) are also tradeable to me.

KeithF40
07-20-08, 11:22 AM
Given a large enough sample size, which Holliday has, his sample mean is a great indicator of what he would do. Do you think statistics is a pseudo science?

Middle tier prospects are always tradable when you are the NYY. McCut i think is higher than that although Ohl is exactly that. Unfortunately I just dont see this team getting out of the first round this year, so Im holding off on that trade.

The pirates are retarded, I think we can use the last 15 yrs to prove that.

Posada's problems behind the plate are NOT A SURPRISE. Cashman is a TOTAL hack TOTAL HACK repeat.

You pay a 36 yr old catcher(is not a good def catcher either and ppl, like Mussina, dont even want to throw to him) 13 a year for 4 years. I guess for some unknown reason Cash believes that Posada doesn't bow down to the rules of nature. Bench retired at 35 and Posada aint no Yogi. Now you have yet another DH on the roster.

Giambi at first, Molina and his 256 obp at catcher, good backup not starter, and Posada at DH, Damon in LF, whats the problem with that, other than it should of never happened?

What we need is a new GM, but other than that offensive punch would be nice, or really not having 10 100 year old guys on the team and a hack of a player in Betemit, that was a ridic trade he's a disaster.

Milw gave up alot for CC, including LaPorta, a number 7 pick. We'll get him at end of season cause Milw is going all out to win it this year, and when I say it I mean the NL cause Boston will sweep them in the series.

I wouldn't trade McCutch for Nady either, I like the guy and he's solid but he's not gonna solve much, this team is a bunch of knuckleheads.

Pretty much EVERYONE has a 50 pt lower OPS on the road. Check out AROD/Jeter, both righties and no porch is helping mr opposite hitting 12 hr a year Jeter.

There's one guy who would rather gave Dunn and that's me cause Holliday can't hit away from Coors. That porch for Dunn, delicious.

teknetic
07-20-08, 11:27 AM
Depends on who you are giving up. I wouldn't give up AJ for him

I wouldn't give up Jackson for anyone either (and I doubt Cashman would) I just viewed the comment as a slight to Matsui.

yanksphan
07-20-08, 11:40 AM
Do you think statistics is a pseudo science?


Statistics aren't a science at all. They are merely recorded history.

The statistics themselves have absolutely no bearing on the future as there are way to many variables that can enter the equation at anytime.

We can certainly use them to help predict what the future may hold, but it's misappropriate to suggest they are an absolute indicator of anything.

mycroft
07-20-08, 11:47 AM
Statistics aren't a science at all. They are merely recorded history.

The statistics themselves have absolutely no bearing on the future as there are way to many variables that can enter the equation at anytime.

We can certainly use them to help predict what the future may hold, but it's misappropriate to suggest they are an absolute indicator of anything.

Exactly

dan66
07-20-08, 03:11 PM
First off the Rockies do not need any outfielders as they have Seth Smith and Dexter Fowler coming up!

I wouldn't mind a trade of Ohlendorf or Veras to the Rockies for Ryan Spilborghs who is on the dl with an oblique. He can play any outfield position and hits lefty pitching very well.

AJW
07-20-08, 06:07 PM
Abreu is NOT THAT GOOD. Idk why everyone, including MLB 2K8 for XBOX 360, thinks Abreu is a solid player. His OPS+ has dropped every year for the last 3, this year it is at 109. He has AROD hitting behind him for protection and can still only muster this pitiful production for a corner outfield for the New York Yankees. I watch almost every game and I want to throw up half the time he comes to the plate, I only got to go to one game last year cause tix are so damn exp and sitting in the upper deck sucks, but I booed him every single at bat.

He's a total goof in right too.

Dunn is a stud, he's a 40/100 guy every year with a career 131 adjusted ops. This year will make 5 straight 40 HR seasons without a great guy hitting behind him covering him. He does strike out a ton though I'll def give you that.

With Hughes and IPK I'm saying that they could def be the part of a core for many years to come and they are going to make next to nothing, just like AJ and Tabata for the next five years, esp compared to some high priced guys with more service. Hughes and IPK getting injured is not something you can plan for, but having all these old farts getting injured should not be a surprise, that's what happens to old farts.

I'm just really tired of overpaying for every player on the roster, signing old guys to long contracts where they fall apart at the end and are still making tons of money, and having log jams at all the old men positions.

Dunn can also play first, I think he's a good backup plan when Tex demands 20M.

Matsui is a total diaster in the fact that when he plays he's great, but when he doesn't he is injured and has no trade value, so we'll probably get stuck in a perpetual don't trade him he's mashing the ball and the don't trade him he's injured and has no value, so he'll play out his contract.

Dunn sucks!!! He K's too much and is a horrible defensive player. I have a couple of friends that are Reds fans and they think he is horrible.

ShaneTravis
07-20-08, 06:14 PM
Dunn sucks!!! He K's too much and is a horrible defensive player. I have a couple of friends that are Reds fans and they think he is horrible.

Tell your friends Dunn is their best hitter.

And tell your Yankee friends that Dunn's away Ops this year is around .950

fellows
07-20-08, 06:37 PM
Dunn sucks!!! He K's too much and is a horrible defensive player. I have a couple of friends that are Reds fans and they think he is horrible.

Lots of stupid baseball fans(and J.P.) do not like Dunn because they overrate BA, overlook walks, and think striking out is worse than other types of outs.

themgmt
07-20-08, 06:42 PM
A lot of baseball fans overrate walks and overlook BA and think striking out is no worse than other outs.

1. A hit is better than a walk
2. A player with a .380 OBP and a .320 BA is more valuable than a player with a .240 BA and a 380 OBP
3. A strikeout has no possibility of advancing a runner or causing an error so yes, it is worse than a regular out (double plays withstanding).


3.5 You're less likely to hit and run or send runners on 3-2 with a high strikeout candidate.
4. Fast is better than slow.

philleotardo
07-20-08, 07:06 PM
Lots of stupid baseball fans(and J.P.) do not like Dunn because they overrate BA, overlook walks, and think striking out is worse than other types of outs.Explain to me how it's not.

Metroidman
07-20-08, 07:08 PM
A lot of baseball fans overrate walks and overlook BA and think striking out is no worse than other outs.

1. A hit is better than a walk
2. A player with a .380 OBP and a .320 BA is more valuable than a player with a .240 BA and a 380 OBP
3. A strikeout has no possibility of advancing a runner or causing an error so yes, it is worse than a regular out (double plays withstanding).


3.5 You're less likely to hit and run or send runners on 3-2 with a high strikeout candidate.
4. Fast is better than slow.

1. Well duh. But its far easier to replicate OBP than Avg over the course of time
2. Uh that depends on Slug%
3. A strikeout also has no possibility of causing a DP
4. Juan Pierre is better than Albert Pujols


I'm sure you'd hate to have guys like Ryan Howard on this team right? if anything People overrate how bad K's are underrate OBP.

Metroidman
07-20-08, 07:10 PM
Explain to me how it's not.

Because an out is an out

You wanna look at his RBI Totals? He's great at driving in runs and has been for his career. Your goal over the course of a season is to make as little outs as you can. It doesnt' matter what he does to make outs. It matters that he doesn't make them as often as many other players.

fellows
07-20-08, 07:14 PM
Explain to me how it's not.

Another key factor is the FC. I would prefer a slow runner like Dunn to K rather than replace a faster baserunner on a FC.

Jumpman_DJ
07-20-08, 07:33 PM
There's one guy who would rather gave Dunn and that's me cause Holliday can't hit away from Coors. That porch for Dunn, delicious.

Death Valley in Yankee Stadium , Below average Defender, dont we already have two of those types on our roster.

I liked some of your other opinions but i cant get behind Adam Dunn as a Yankee. I agree about Posada.

ShaneTravis
07-20-08, 07:56 PM
Replace Gardner's at bats with Dunn's and this lineup would be strides ahead of where it is now.

Move Gardner or Damon to center and have Dunn play a corner...

Have Dunn be full time DH...

Adding Adam Dunn to this lineup would be a no brainer. The catch is who would you give up. I don't like Cinci or Pittsburg for that matter as trading partners. I think both franchises are looking for a haul.

themgmt
07-20-08, 08:14 PM
1. Well duh. But its far easier to replicate OBP than Avg over the course of time
2. Uh that depends on Slug%
3. A strikeout also has no possibility of causing a DP
4. Juan Pierre is better than Albert Pujols


I'm sure you'd hate to have guys like Ryan Howard on this team right? if anything People overrate how bad K's are underrate OBP.

1 A career .380 OBP is a .380 OBP. The ease of replication has nothing to do with it. Walks are a result of bad pitches, you can't force a walk independently if the pitcher is throwing strikes. You're telling me that a person with a career .300 average and .380 OBP has less of a chance of replicating that .300 average. Well guess what, the guy with the .230 avg will have the same variability in his batting average, no?

Situation: Mariano is on the mound, there is a 3% chance he walks a batter, but a 20% chance he gives up a hit. I want the higher average guy up there, if their OBPs are equivalent. I'd go as far as saying there are very few, if any pitchers in baseball that gives up more walks than hits.

There is not 1 singular situation where a walk is better than a hit (a lot of times it is equal- single, nobody on). There a ton of situations where a hit is better than walk.


2. I was comparing Holliday to Dunn, they're both .380+OBP, 900+ OPS.

3. A strikeout lessens the possibility of a doubleplay, but does that mean Dunn doesn't hit into double plays? Also the double play is so infrequent and comprises a small number of the total outs. I'd bet more players score on outs, advance on outs, and reach on errors, than they lose from double plays.

4. Fast is better than slow... Again, if both players are .900 OPS, .380 OBP... The faster player is more valuable on the bases.


Not to take away from Dunn, but Holliday is the better player. And he plays the hell out of left field, while Dunn butches it. Dunn still mashes

themgmt
07-20-08, 08:19 PM
Another key factor is the FC. I would prefer a slow runner like Dunn to K rather than replace a faster baserunner on a FC.

I would like you to take the number of GIDP for the Yankees, then tell me how many times the Yankees have scored on outs, runners have advanced on outs, and runners have reached on errors.

On the whole, K's aren't good no matter how you fashion it. Even if you tell me you'd rather a K than a GIDP with a runner on first, and 1 out, what about a runner on 1st with 2 outs, runner on 2nd, no outs? runner on 3rd 0 outs? etc.. I'd rather the ball put in play with a higher probability of something positive happening.

philleotardo
07-20-08, 09:58 PM
Because an out is an out

You wanna look at his RBI Totals? He's great at driving in runs and has been for his career. Your goal over the course of a season is to make as little outs as you can. It doesnt' matter what he does to make outs. It matters that he doesn't make them as often as many other players.He does- that's what batting average tells you....he makes outs a large percentage of the time he's not walking.

JL25and3
07-20-08, 11:24 PM
A lot of baseball fans overrate walks and overlook BA and think striking out is no worse than other outs.

1. A hit is better than a walk
2. A player with a .380 OBP and a .320 BA is more valuable than a player with a .240 BA and a 380 OBP
3. A strikeout has no possibility of advancing a runner or causing an error so yes, it is worse than a regular out (double plays withstanding).


3.5 You're less likely to hit and run or send runners on 3-2 with a high strikeout candidate.
4. Fast is better than slow.I have some argument with your second point in particular. That .320 BA/.380 OBP is more valuable - but only as long as he continues to hit .320. You're also discounting the value of Dunn's power. Dunn and Ichiro! have just about the same lifetime OBP, and Ichiro! has a much higher BA. As a hitter - putting aside Ichiro!'s speed - I'd much rather have Dunn's 90 extra points in SA.

But even granting your points, all they show is that Dunn is a flawed hitter. That doesn't mean he's a bad one, not by any means. Obviously, I'd rather have a .320 hitter with 40-HR power. In the meantime, a career .381 OBP/.521 SA - 131 OPS - is a damn good hitter regardless of strikeouts. His weaknesses shouldn't blind you to his genuine value.

machphantom
07-21-08, 02:22 AM
Hideki Matsui's uncertain status for the rest of the year has caused the Yankees to increase their interest in Pittsburgh outfielders Jason Bay and Xavier Nady. A major-league official familiar with the Pirates organization, who asked not to be named because of the sensitive nature of trade talks, said the Yankees also have interest in lefty relievers Damaso Marte and John Grabow.
Minor-league outfielders Austin Jackson and Jose Tabata and pitchers such as Ian Kennedy are names that could be discussed. Melky Cabrera does not interest the Pirates, who have All-Star Nate McLouth in center field.

http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1216529729323770.xml&coll=1

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 02:45 AM
go after Wesley Wright from the Astros he's cheaper than Marte and younger, and has kept a 1.80 BAA vs LHP, young, effective and cheaper.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 02:49 AM
As for Matt Holliday OMG I can't stand the love this guy is getting he fields the OF worse than Shelley Duncan, this guy away from Coors is slugging 200 points less and his OBP % also drops away from Colorado. What a disaster this guy would be.

You want to see what we'd see in the OF ?
This is what you would see (http://www.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806162943230)

Matt
07-21-08, 03:09 AM
And yet Holliday's defense would still be a huge upgrade over Bay's.

I guess it doesn't matter since this is Cashman we're talking about, the Yankees aren't going to trade prospects for a big name guy. :)

BxBomber44
07-21-08, 03:19 AM
dont pull the trigger yet cash, this team is going to be fine as is. sign a FA

themgmt
07-21-08, 06:34 AM
I have some argument with your second point in particular. That .320 BA/.380 OBP is more valuable - but only as long as he continues to hit .320. You're also discounting the value of Dunn's power. Dunn and Ichiro! have just about the same lifetime OBP, and Ichiro! has a much higher BA. As a hitter - putting aside Ichiro!'s speed - I'd much rather have Dunn's 90 extra points in SA.

But even granting your points, all they show is that Dunn is a flawed hitter. That doesn't mean he's a bad one, not by any means. Obviously, I'd rather have a .320 hitter with 40-HR power. In the meantime, a career .381 OBP/.521 SA - 131 OPS - is a damn good hitter regardless of strikeouts. His weaknesses shouldn't blind you to his genuine value.

I was talking about Holliday and Dunn. Or in general anyone with the same OBP and OPS, I'd rather the guy who gets it done with the higher BA. I never said Dunn is a bad hitter, in fact I clearly expressed that he wasn't.

themgmt
07-21-08, 06:52 AM
As for Matt Holliday OMG I can't stand the love this guy is getting he fields the OF worse than Shelley Duncan, this guy away from Coors is slugging 200 points less and his OBP % also drops away from Colorado. What a disaster this guy would be.

You want to see what we'd see in the OF ?
This is what you would see (http://www.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806162943230)

We're talking about LF here, not CF. Holliday has good range, gives an all out effort on every play and has a more than adequate arm for LF. Off the top of my head I can't think of any LF that plays significantly better defense. Delmon Young has the best arm in LF because he's really a RF. Crawford has great range, Damon does too, Holliday throws better than both. Not too familiar with all the National League left fielders... I don't have the metrics but there are definitely a few guys who cover more ground, and a few guys who throw better, but the combination of both.


Dunn isn't that bad in the field, he probably gets to all the balls he's supposed to, I've actually seen him make some pretty good catches this year. But he also plays in Great American Ball park with a small LF. He would get hosed in Yankee Stadium

themgmt
07-21-08, 07:26 AM
And again, when you look at Holliday's road splits, remember he plays in the NL West and think of some of the parks. You look at his road numbers to try to translate what his numbers would be in Yankee Stadium. If you look closer it isn't bad- of his 81 Road games- 9 at PetCo, 9 at Chase Field, 9 at Dodger Stadium, 3-4 at Minute Maid Park etc

Check his hit chart this year: PetCo - 1 HR, 1 402 ft fly out to LCF, 378 ft fly out to straight away RF = 3 HR at YS.

Chase Field - 2 doubles that would have been HR's at YS. 1 HR = 3 HR at YS

Dodger Stadium - 1 Deep fly out = 1 HR at YS

Minute Made Park - 2 420+ ft fly outs to dead center, 1 400+ foot double just to the left of LCF = 3 HR at YS

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=mlb&playerID=407812&statType=1

Look at Adrian Gonzalez, he has a 759 Home OPS in PetCo, but a .947 Road OPS. Last 3 years - .904 Road OPS, .760 Home OPS. Yankee Stadium has a big LF, but Holliday also hits the ball the other way and would get some HRs that way with the short porch. Holliday's would still be an 880+ OPS guy every year at the minimum.

sjb23
07-21-08, 07:26 AM
Consider This:

Ian Kennedy, Jose Tabata, Ross Ohlendorf, and Jeff Karstens or Daryl Rasner for Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte. (The four guys we give up are all replacable-we're not dependent on any of them. The Pirates should love the deal.)

Then sign Freddy Garcia and release Hawkins. Add Bruney and send down Geise.

Then win the pennant with these 25 guys:

Damon - DH, Jeter - SS, Abreu - RF, Rodriguez - 3B, Giambi - 1B, Nady - LF
Cano - 2B. Posada - C, Cabrera - CF

Bench: Molina, Sexson, Betamit, Bret Gardner or Action Jackson (for pinch runner and defensive replacement). Sexson and Molina replace Giambi and Posada against LH starters.

Pettitte, Mussina, Chamberlain, Garcia, Ponson
(If Wang comes back in September, release Ponson.)

Rivera, Marte, Farnsworth, Veras, Ramirez, Robertson, Bruney

The Dynasty
07-21-08, 07:38 AM
Consider This:

Ian Kennedy, Jose Tabata, Ross Ohlendorf, and Jeff Karstens or Daryl Rasner for Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte. (The four guys we give up are all replacable-we're not dependent on any of them. The Pirates should love the deal.)

Then sign Freddy Garcia and release Hawkins. Add Bruney and send down Geise.

Then win the pennant with these 25 guys:

Damon - DH, Jeter - SS, Abreu - RF, Rodriguez - 3B, Giambi - 1B, Nady - LF
Cano - 2B. Posada - C, Cabrera - CF

Bench: Molina, Sexson, Betamit, Bret Gardner or Action Jackson (for pinch runner and defensive replacement). Sexson and Molina replace Giambi and Posada against LH starters.

Pettitte, Mussina, Chamberlain, Garcia, Ponson
(If Wang comes back in September, release Ponson.)

Rivera, Marte, Farnsworth, Veras, Ramirez, Robertson, Bruney

Everything you say seems pretty reasonable, but Jackson is not ready for the Majors. When he is, I'm pretty darn sure he's not coming in to be a "pinch runner and defensive replacement".

themgmt
07-21-08, 07:42 AM
Garcia won't be ready to contribute anything though.

The trade isn't bad but it's selling low on Kennedy.. I'd rather give up a combo of Horne/McCutchen than just Kennedy at the moment. In fact they'd probably be more interested in Horne/McCutchen/Ohlendorf/Cox than Kennedy/Karstens/Ohlendorf.

Because if you split the package it doesn't look good for the Pirates. Kennedy/Karstens for Marte (unfair) and Tabata/Ohlendorf for Nady (fair). How about McCutchen/Horne/Cox for Marte (steep but fair) and Tabata/Ohlendorf for Nady (fair)? That's 2 starting prospects, 1 relief prospect for a reliever, 1 OF Prospect, 1 starter/reliever for a RF

Marte is actually pretty old and Nady isn't that great so giving up Tabata/McCutchen in that deal would be tough but doable for a power lefty reliever and righty role player. Marte is the key acquisition- the bullpen would be nuts. Actually that's giving up one player too much but I think it gets it done. Take out Cox and see if that's good

themgmt
07-21-08, 08:13 AM
As for Matt Holliday OMG I can't stand the love this guy is getting he fields the OF worse than Shelley Duncan, this guy away from Coors is slugging 200 points less and his OBP % also drops away from Colorado. What a disaster this guy would be.

You want to see what we'd see in the OF ?
This is what you would see (http://www.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806162943230)

1 http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806152934977

2 http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806102884798

3 http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805042640940

That is what you would see. Which is pretty much the same as your video- all out effort. I've seen Dunn make some nice plays this year too. He's not really bad, just slow.

aeromac76
07-21-08, 08:13 AM
Consider This:

Ian Kennedy, Jose Tabata, Ross Ohlendorf, and Jeff Karstens or Daryl Rasner for Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte. (The four guys we give up are all replacable-we're not dependent on any of them. The Pirates should love the deal.)

Then sign Freddy Garcia and release Hawkins. Add Bruney and send down Geise.

Then win the pennant with these 25 guys:

Damon - DH, Jeter - SS, Abreu - RF, Rodriguez - 3B, Giambi - 1B, Nady - LF
Cano - 2B. Posada - C, Cabrera - CF

Bench: Molina, Sexson, Betamit, Bret Gardner or Action Jackson (for pinch runner and defensive replacement). Sexson and Molina replace Giambi and Posada against LH starters.

Pettitte, Mussina, Chamberlain, Garcia, Ponson
(If Wang comes back in September, release Ponson.)

Rivera, Marte, Farnsworth, Veras, Ramirez, Robertson, Bruney

Jackson is not coming up to be a PH/DR, he needs to play, and not sure he is ready..
As for the deal with the Pirates., substitute Bay for Nady and I am in.
Bay is a really good player. Nady is a decent/average ML player having a stellar year.
I would rather not buy high..

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 08:42 AM
1 http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806152934977

2 http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806102884798

3 http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805042640940

That is what you would see. Which is pretty much the same as your video- all out effort. I've seen Dunn make some nice plays this year too. He's not really bad, just slow.

I'm sure Dunn would be cheaper, but Holliday is the guy the Yankees should be after. You can't survive in the AL East hunt with Melky and Gardner in the outfield. If Matsui isn't coming back, there needs to be more production from the outfield bats.

JL25and3
07-21-08, 08:56 AM
I was talking about Holliday and Dunn. Or in general anyone with the same OBP and OPS, I'd rather the guy who gets it done with the higher BA. I never said Dunn is a bad hitter, in fact I clearly expressed that he wasn't.Fair enough. Other posters and commentators, here and elsewhere, have basically said that Dunn sucks; you didn't. My mistake. Sorry.

themgmt
07-21-08, 09:20 AM
I'm sure Dunn would be cheaper, but Holliday is the guy the Yankees should be after. You can't survive in the AL East hunt with Melky and Gardner in the outfield. If Matsui isn't coming back, there needs to be more production from the outfield bats.

That was me pining for Holliday. I've said I'd trade anyone on the farm in bunches outside of Jackson/Montero. I'd give the Rockies Tabata (#2 Yankee Prospect) and our 2 best pitching prospects (not including IPK at the moment) and any other 2 prospects they wanted.

Bleacher_Creature
07-21-08, 09:20 AM
A Jason Bay deal seems less likely - the Pirates' price is high for their star.

Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte continue to draw interest, with John Grabow in the mix as well. Nady or Marte would require two prospects each. Nady's suitors are the Rays, Mets, Yankees, and Braves. Marte has roughly a dozen suitors.
Ed Price of the Newark Star-Ledger (http://www.nj.com/yankees/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/1216529729323770.xml&coll=1) says the injury to Hideki Matsui led to heightened interest from the Yankees in Nady and Bay. They're also in on Marte and Grabow.

The Bucs aren't interested in Melky Cabrera.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 09:42 AM
That was me pining for Holliday. I've said I'd trade anyone on the farm in bunches outside of Jackson/Montero. I'd give the Rockies Tabata (#2 Yankee Prospect) and our 2 best pitching prospects (not including IPK at the moment) and any other 2 prospects they wanted.

Right, you have been vocal in calling for the addition of Holliday and I agree. They can make a deal, it's just a question of what they have to sacrifice. My hope is that Cashman is biding his time until the Rockies are willing to accept less than what they are currently demanding. The pitching has been so solid as of late, and sitting only 4.5 games back, an offensive shot in the arm in the form of Matt Holliday makes this team dramatically better.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 09:44 AM
Tabata and Jackson better still be here after this deadline. Posters are overrating Matt Holliday and the Jason Bays who can't hit w/ RISP or Xavier Nady who is overachieving.

Bleacher_Creature
07-21-08, 09:52 AM
That was me pining for Holliday. I've said I'd trade anyone on the farm in bunches outside of Jackson/Montero. I'd give the Rockies Tabata (#2 Yankee Prospect) and our 2 best pitching prospects (not including IPK at the moment) and any other 2 prospects they wanted.

Cashman didn't trade the farm for Santana or Sabathia, I doubt he'll do it for the likes of Holliday, Bay, Teixiera or Dunn.

Cheesyhoboe
07-21-08, 09:55 AM
Cashman didn't trade the farm for Santana or Sabathia, I doubt he'll do it for the likes of Holliday, Bay, Teixiera or Dunn.

Good Lord. How is trading Tabata and one of our bazillion decent pitching prospects trading the farm? Face it, at this point it would be a miracle if Tabata turned out to be anywhere near Bay or Holliday.

themgmt
07-21-08, 10:00 AM
Tabata and Jackson better still be here after this deadline. Posters are overrating Matt Holliday and the Jason Bays who can't hit w/ RISP or Xavier Nady who is overachieving.

Nady would be nothing more than a role player, I wouldn't trade much for him. I'd trade a little more for Bay but not much more. They'd both add balance to the lineup as the RH DH but they wouldn't be game changing players. Holliday is a stud, big game player. I'd give up Tabata- Holliday would catapult the team to the World Series favorites. Any lineup with AL MVP and NL MVP runner up would devastating.

Damon
Jeter
Abreu
Rodriguez
Holliday
Cano
Giambi
Posada
Melky/Gardner


Imagine Holliday being Protection for A-Rod..not only would he not chase as many bad pitches, pitchers would be reluctant to pitch around A-Rod with a .320 hitter with HR power behind him, and another .320 hitter with gap power after that...and a .400 OBP hitter with HR power after that. That also opens up the bases for baserunners because they won't walk A-Rod with a base empty just to face Holliday

Holliday would bring a WS appearance, almost guaranteed.

Tabata is a prospect - and just that.

Bleacher_Creature
07-21-08, 10:04 AM
Good Lord. How is trading Tabata and one of our bazillion decent pitching prospects trading the farm? Face it, at this point it would be a miracle if Tabata turned out to be anywhere near Bay or Holliday.

He's only 19. If the Yankees are going to give up on him so quick, why didn't they trade him last year when his stock was higher? And my response was more to trading our top 2 pitching prospects (at the moment) for Holliday.

Cheesyhoboe
07-21-08, 10:12 AM
He's only 19. If the Yankees are going to give up on him so quick, why didn't they trade him last year when his stock was higher? And my response was more to trading our top 2 pitching prospects (at the moment) for Holliday.

Why would they trade him last year? There was nothing really good on the market worth trading for and Tabata was our only decent hitting prospect. But this year if we expect to win anything there is no question we need an impact bat on the right side. We're hitting, what, .235 against lefties? Not just that but Tabata is no longer our only hitting prospect as Austin Jackson has passed him in prospect status and Jesus Montero is on the rise. And as far as our top 2 pitching prospects at the moment besides Kennedy, that's... who, exactly? Zach McAllister and Alan Horne? Dellin Betances and Andrew McCutchen? I wouldn't particularly consider trading any combination of those 4 guys trading the farm.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 10:19 AM
Holliday would bring a WS appearance, almost guaranteed.

Tabata is a prospect - and just that.

No he wouldn't and his splits indicates he regresses away from Coors field, it's not just the slugging % it's his OBP % too. Tabata is 19 in AA and w/ more future talent than Holliday, I know what the thinking is here he's just a prospect, Hanley Ramirez was just a prospect, Johan Santana was just a prospect, David Ortiz was just a prospect, sooner or later quick fixing doesn't benefit you in the long run and his value is at it's lowest, there is no way Tabata or Jackson goes anywhere or should go anywhere not for these names, unless that name is Josh Hamilton these names can take a flying leap.

themgmt
07-21-08, 10:20 AM
Why would they trade him last year? There was nothing really good on the market worth trading for and Tabata was our only decent hitting prospect. But this year if we expect to win anything there is no question we need an impact bat on the right side. We're hitting, what, .235 against lefties? Not just that but Tabata is no longer our only hitting prospect as Austin Jackson has passed him in prospect status and Jesus Montero is on the rise. And as far as our top 2 pitching prospects at the moment besides Kennedy, that's... who, exactly? Zach McAllister and Alan Horne? Dellin Betances and Andrew McCutchen? I wouldn't particularly consider trading any combination of those 4 guys trading the farm.

Exactly, we have too many arms to be holding on to all of them.there are only 5 spots in the rotation and from what it seems, Wang and Joba aren't going anywhere and you'd have to assume one of Hughes/Kennedy sticks in as the 3rd starter. You have to figure they Yankees sign 1 FA pitcher in the coming years. That's 1 starting rotation spot for what 10 prospects to battle for? Not only that, Cashman is going to continue to draft pitchers.

I'd give up Tabata, the top two pitching prospects outside of Kennedy, and any other two players they want outside of Jackson/Montero without blinking. It's not "giving up" on Tabata, it's trading him for a great player.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 10:22 AM
If it's a overrated RF/LF that you all want go for Milton Bradley he's cheaper, would require low end pitching and a JB Cox and Texas may pull the trigger atleast we'd keep our top end players for a better value player !

Cheesyhoboe
07-21-08, 10:24 AM
Isn't Milton Bradley leading the league in OPS? If not, he's second or third in the league. Somehow I don't think Texas would take say, Jeff Marquez and JB Cox for him.

JL25and3
07-21-08, 10:24 AM
Two prospects for Damaso Marte? Thanks but no thanks. I wouldn't give up any significant value for him.

First, I hate overpaying for middle relief, whether you're spending money or players. It's almost never worth it. Other than a few elite closers, relievers are inherently inconsistent because every season is a small sample size. Marte has been pretty consistent over the course of his career, but I'd still rather not bet too much on his reliability.

More to the point, the Yankees have problems to address, but right now the bullpen isn't one of them. It's probably their greatest strength at the moment. Why would people want to use two prospects - anyting of value, for that matter - to address the one problem that they don't have?

scooterfan
07-21-08, 10:25 AM
If it's a overrated RF/LF that you all want go for Milton Bradley he's cheaper, would require low end pitching and a JB Cox and Texas may pull the trigger atleast we'd keep our top end players for a better value player !

I don't know how cheap Bradley would come.

Raul Ibanez would be a nice (and cheap) fit - a 'professional hitter' a lot like Matsui (lefty who hits lefties). Mariners are in sell mode, too

themgmt
07-21-08, 10:27 AM
Two prospects for Damaso Marte? Thanks but no thanks. I wouldn't give up any significant value for him.

First, I hate overpaying for middle relief, whether you're spending money or players. It's almost never worth it. Other than a few elite closers, relievers are inherently inconsistent because every season is a small sample size. Marte has been pretty consistent over the course of his career, but I'd still rather not bet too much on his reliability.

More to the point, the Yankees have problems to address, but right now the bullpen isn't one of them. It's probably their greatest strength at the moment. Why would people want to use two prospects - anyting of value, for that matter - to address the one problem that they don't have?

Who do you want facing Ortiz in the 8th inning of a tie game in the ALCS, Farnsworth.. or Marte?

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 10:28 AM
I don't know how cheap Bradley would come.

Raul Ibanez would be a nice (and cheap) fit - a 'professional hitter' a lot like Matsui (lefty who hits lefties). Mariners are in sell mode, too

him too atleast they wouldn't require us dealing Tabata or Jackson. Bradley can be sold since he's a FA after this season, Ibanez again Seattle is going nowhere, another guy under the radar would be Jeff Francoeur who hits w/ RISP and fields his position well.

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 10:28 AM
He's only 19. If the Yankees are going to give up on him so quick, why didn't they trade him last year when his stock was higher? And my response was more to trading our top 2 pitching prospects (at the moment) for Holliday.

If the Yankees are walking away from the table due to their refusal to trade the likes of Tabata for a guy like Holliday, then they truly have concieded the season.

I am all for planning for the future and nurturing talent in the minors to bring up to the big club and eventually contribute. But this is not some role player who would be a slight improvement. This is the near NL MVP last year, who is only 28 yrs old.

The Yankees have a glut of high-value pitching prospects, they can't give everyone a spot in the rotation. Tabata shouldn't be untouchable, what has he ever done?

If you're against the move because you feel like it is too pricy or risky (given his FA status after '09) I can understand that. Split stats away from Coors, no time to negotiate a contract extension, I hear you. But if he can be had for a few guys from a position which is currently stockpiled with young talent, why not?

themgmt
07-21-08, 10:31 AM
No he wouldn't and his splits indicates he regresses away from Coors field, it's not just the slugging % it's his OBP % too. Tabata is 19 in AA and w/ more future talent than Holliday, I know what the thinking is here he's just a prospect, Hanley Ramirez was just a prospect, Johan Santana was just a prospect, David Ortiz was just a prospect, sooner or later quick fixing doesn't benefit you in the long run and his value is at it's lowest, there is no way Tabata or Jackson goes anywhere or should go anywhere not for these names, unless that name is Josh Hamilton these names can take a flying leap.

Read my post in the other thread- He has an .859 OPS on the road the last two years.. That's better than everyone on the Yankees total OPS outside of Giambi, A-Rod, and Matsui. On top of that his road OPS is skewed by some of the parks he plays a lot of his games in, if you look deeper into the numbers. Just from the games he's played in Minute Maid Park and PetCo alone so far this year- he'd have 5 more HRs if he played those games in Yankee Stadium. Also factor in the short porch and Holliday's opposite field power.

On top of that, you'd have to attribute at least a tiny portion of his home performance to..well, being at home.

A-Rod has a 1.100+ OPS at home this year, .845 OPS on the Road
Giambi has a 1.000+ OPS at home this year, .855 OPS on the Road
Holliday has a 1.050 OPS at home this year, .860 OPS on the Road

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 10:38 AM
Read my post in the other thread- He has an .859 OPS on the road the last two years.. That's better than everyone on the Yankees total OPS outside of Giambi, A-Rod, and Matsui. On top of that his road OPS is skewed by some of the parks he plays a lot of his games in, if you look deeper into the numbers. Just from the games he's played in Minute Maid Park and PetCo alone so far this year- he'd have 5 more HRs if he played those games in Yankee Stadium.

The price tag for Holliday is too much. End this already. They asked the Rays for David Price for starters, there is no Holliday to NY deal in the works.

themgmt
07-21-08, 11:06 AM
The price tag isn't too much. It's all a matter of if Cashman or any other GM believes it will be the move to put them over the top. Cashman wasn't sure about the team last year, and he doesn't seem sure about the team this year so that would be why he would balk at a trade.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 11:10 AM
The price tag isn't too much. It's all a matter of if Cashman or any other GM believes it will be the move to put them over the top. Cashman wasn't sure about the team last year, and he doesn't seem sure about the team this year so that would be why he would balk at a trade.

It is too high.

themgmt
07-21-08, 11:30 AM
Oh ok, maybe the Rockies should trade away Holliday for a package of Alberto Gonzalez/Kei Igawa/Jeff Karstens/Jason Lane.

Give something big to get something big.

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 11:34 AM
It is too high.

If that's the case then fine, move on to Jason Bay, hunt new game. Don't trade Hughes, anyone else is a chip in my mind. If that doesn't get it done, the walk away.

What is too high? Where did you read they asked Tampa for Price?

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 11:35 AM
I'd probably trade Hughes for Bay or Holliday.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 11:36 AM
Oh ok, maybe the Rockies should trade away Holliday for a package of Alberto Gonzalez/Kei Igawa/Jeff Karstens/Jason Lane.

Give something big to get something big.

I don't care what the Rockies do w/ him, point is we are in no position to over spend for one addition w/ this current roster. The hell w/ what Colorado thinks is fair offer.

ARoDfan4life
07-21-08, 11:38 AM
I'd probably trade Hughes for Bay or Holliday.
I'm going to pretend I didn't see this

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 11:39 AM
I'd probably trade Hughes for Bay or Holliday.

I still believe Hughes will be a successful ML starter. For Holliday maybe, but not for Bay IMO.

BillBuckner
07-21-08, 11:39 AM
Oh ok, maybe the Rockies should trade away Holliday for a package of Alberto Gonzalez/Kei Igawa/Jeff Karstens/Jason Lane.

Give something big to get something big.

You call that big? This isn't Playstation.

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 11:41 AM
You call that big? This isn't Playstation.

Sarcasm.

THEBOSS84
07-21-08, 11:41 AM
I'd probably trade Hughes for Bay or Holliday.

If I took heat for saying I'd trade Action for Holliday...

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 11:43 AM
If I took heat for saying I'd trade Action for Holliday...

I wouldn't do that, but I would trade Hughes. I'm really not high on his stuff, injury history, and path going forward.

BillBuckner
07-21-08, 11:47 AM
Sarcasm.
Ehh my bad. The problem with sarcasm with this site is that there are some people who actually believe those things to be true, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Tifoso
07-21-08, 11:47 AM
I wouldn't do that, but I would trade Hughes. I'm really not high on his stuff, injury history, and path going forward.


Agreed.

*ducks flying objects*

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 11:51 AM
Ehh my bad. The problem with sarcasm with this site is that there are some people who actually believe those things to be true, it's hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Yep, nature of the beast. It would be awesome if this was playstation though. I'd have Pujols and Holliday on this team pronto.

AustinTXHorn
07-21-08, 12:23 PM
If it's a overrated RF/LF that you all want go for Milton Bradley he's cheaper, would require low end pitching and a JB Cox and Texas may pull the trigger atleast we'd keep our top end players for a better value player !
It's going to take a monster deal for the Rangers to trade Bradley. Why would the Rangers give up Bradley for a middle relief prospect and another "low-end" pitcher? They could get that by trading Nelson Cruz and Frank Catalanotto. They'd get more by just offering him arbitration and letting him walk after this season.

Besides, as someone said above, how is Bradley overrated? He's an MVP candidate this season.

primetime714
07-21-08, 12:32 PM
It's going to take a monster deal for the Rangers to trade Bradley. Why would the Rangers give up Bradley for a middle relief prospect and another "low-end" pitcher? They could get that by trading Nelson Cruz and Frank Catalanotto. They'd get more by just offering him arbitration and letting him walk after this season.

Besides, as someone said above, how is Bradley overrated? He's an MVP candidate this season.

I agree and think the Rangers will look into re-signing him for next year. I think he could be had for the right deal, but the Rangers don't seem to be shopping him which means he likely won't come cheap.

themgmt
07-21-08, 12:45 PM
It's going to take a monster deal for the Rangers to trade Bradley. Why would the Rangers give up Bradley for a middle relief prospect and another "low-end" pitcher? They could get that by trading Nelson Cruz and Frank Catalanotto. They'd get more by just offering him arbitration and letting him walk after this season.

Besides, as someone said above, how is Bradley overrated? He's an MVP candidate this season.

You're a Rangers fan, answer this question for me. Why on EARTH is Nelson Cruz still in the Minors? The kid has been raking for years in the minors and he's 28. He had a rough start last year but seriously, he deserves a prolonged shot with his minor league numbers.

Yankee Tripper
07-21-08, 12:47 PM
Marlon Byrd is probably available from Texas but looking at his career, he's not really an upgrade over what we have. He did have a good year last year but I think he's a career 92 OPS+ hitters. I also know little about his CF defense other that he does have some experience there.

What about Dave Roberts as an option? He hasn't played all year and is just returning from an injury (sometime this week). He's a sub-standard defensive CF at this point and throws about on par with Damon but he'd be dirt cheap as SF has now where to play him and his contract is up at the end of the year. He'd be a pure salary dump for SF so he wouldn't cost nearly anything in terms of prospects. He struglled with a elbow injury most of last year but put up pretty good numbers in 05 & 06 as a mostly regular player.

EDIT - NEVERMIND on Roberts he signed through 2009 for $6.5 M next year. How does Sabien still have a job?

R.V.47
07-21-08, 12:49 PM
Marlon Byrd is probably available from Texas but looking at his career, he's not really an upgrade over what we have. He did have a good year last year but I think he's a career 92 OPS+ hitters. I also know little about his CF defense other that he does have some experience there.

What about Dave Roberts as an option? He hasn't played all year and is just returning from an injury (sometime this week). He's a sub-standard defensive CF at this point and throws about on par with Damon but he'd be dirt cheap as SF has now where to play him and his contract is up at the end of the year. He'd be a pure salary dump for SF so he wouldn't cost nearly anything in terms of prospects. He struglled with a elbow injury most of last year but put up pretty good numbers in 05 & 06 as a mostly regular player.

We might as well keep Gardner on the bench rather than get Roberts.

Yankee Tripper
07-21-08, 01:07 PM
We might as well keep Gardner on the bench rather than get Roberts.
I was thinking of Roberts as our starting CF over Melky. Not sure that is an upgrade but it might be. This also assumes Matsui will not be back with the Yanks this season - if he is then no on Roberts.

NYATLCHRIS
07-21-08, 01:09 PM
Fat Mike is still pushing for Bronson Arroyo and his pushing 6 era and 1.6 whip.

BRNXBMRS
07-21-08, 01:19 PM
I wouldn't do that, but I would trade Hughes. I'm really not high on his stuff, injury history, and path going forward.

We all (fans) had Hughes hyped talked about since he was drafted, the Yanks have to give him a chance to blossom. Plus he is on the DL.

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 01:45 PM
Fat Mike is still pushing for Bronson Arroyo and his pushing 6 era and 1.6 whip.

He is a moron. I heard him too. "I can live without a corner outfielder, but they need another pitcher." Newsflash Mike, Hideki is not coming back and you're starting Melky and Gardner as everyday players. The pitching staff has been the one of the strengths of this team and if the offense picks it up a little bit Raz and Sidney don't have to throw 6 IP 1 run ball. He is an idiot.

NYATLCHRIS
07-21-08, 02:05 PM
Oooo lets not forget that he doesn't think the Mets need another starting pitcher but they do need a corner outfielder.

rajah
07-21-08, 02:20 PM
Damon seems to be coming back. That means that Gardner will be going back to Scranton until September when he returns as a pinch runner, hopefully for the playoff roster as well.

How exactly does another LFer, even Holliday, make the Y's a real WS contender? Posada looks like he is not an everyday catcher, at least until next year after surgery. Is it clear that even Holliday or Bay is going to bring a lot more offense than would Posada and Damon, some more probably, but a lot more? (I am skeptical of Holliday's home-away splits.)

On the other hand, the Yankees are not going any place in the playoffs with the current starting pitching, and Wang's return seems problematic. I can't believe that folks are comfortable with Ponson as the 4th starter. Arroyo is, granted, a stupid idea, but that does not mean that the need is not greater in the starting rotation.

I am not against getting Holliday, Bay or some other corner LFer, or even better someone with a RF arm, but anyone who is willing to trade Hughes or Jackson to try to win this year with this starting pitching staff is willing to go back to the old win now system.

How many of you who are willing to give up the best pitching prospect or the best positional prospect not on the current roster also complain about the Y's having long term bloated contracts with veterans? The only way to avoid having a lot of those contracts and to have a chance to win is to keep your best prospects.

BRNXBMRS
07-21-08, 02:23 PM
Damon seems to be coming back. That means that Gardner will be going back to Scranton until September when he returns as a pinch runner, hopefully for the playoff roster as well.

How exactly does another LFer, even Holliday, make the Y's a real WS contender? Posada looks like he is not an everyday catcher, at least until next year after surgery. Is it clear that even Holliday or Bay is going to bring a lot more offense than would Posada and Damon, some more probably, but a lot more? (I am skeptical of Holliday's home-away splits.)

On the other hand, the Yankees are not going any place in the playoffs with the current starting pitching, and Wang's return seems problematic. I can't believe that folks are comfortable with Ponson as the 4th starter. Arroyo is, granted, a stupid idea, but that does not mean that the need is not greater in the starting rotation.

I am not against getting Holliday, Bay or some other corner LFer, or even better someone with a RF arm, but anyone who is willing to trade Hughes or Jackson to try to win this year with this starting pitching staff is willing to go back to the old win now system.

How many of you who are willing to give up the best pitching prospect or the best positional prospect not on the current roster also complain about the Y's having long term bloated contracts with veterans? The only way to avoid having a lot of those contracts and to have a chance to win is to keep your best prospects.

Wouldnt the yanks send Christian down and keep Gardner?

Yankee Tripper
07-21-08, 02:26 PM
How exactly does another LFer, even Holliday, make the Y's a real WS contender? Posada looks like he is not an everyday catcher, at least until next year after surgery. Is it clear that even Holliday or Bay is going to bring a lot more offense than would Posada and Damon, some more probably, but a lot more? (I am skeptical of Holliday's home-away splits.)


The assumption would be Damon is shifted back to CF on a mostly full time basis for the rest of the year. If not, getting a left fielder doesn't make much sense.

An OF with Damon in CF and Holliday or Bay in left would not be a particularly good one but the offense they produce would be far supreior to Melky/Garder OF.

THEBOSS84
07-21-08, 02:29 PM
The assumption would be Damon is shifted back to CF on a mostly full time basis for the rest of the year. If not, getting a left fielder doesn't make much sense.

An OF with Damon in CF and Holliday or Bay in left would not be a particularly good one but the offense they produce would be far supreior to Melky/Garder OF.

Holliday is the best LF in the league according to the defensive metrics. I'd take an OF defense of Holliday/Damon as compared to the offense that Melky/Damon would give combined, any day of the week.

Yankee Tripper
07-21-08, 02:33 PM
Holliday is the best LF in the league according to the defensive metrics. I'd take an OF defense of Holliday/Damon as compared to the offense that Melky/Damon would give combined, any day of the week.
Me too but an OF of Bay/Damon/Abreu would be one of the worst defensive alignments in MLB. I'd still take a Bay/Damon of over Melky/Damon OF as well.

AustinTXHorn
07-21-08, 02:37 PM
You're a Rangers fan, answer this question for me. Why on EARTH is Nelson Cruz still in the Minors? The kid has been raking for years in the minors and he's 28. He had a rough start last year but seriously, he deserves a prolonged shot with his minor league numbers.
Because he's done it before. His approach is the problem and he hasn't changed it.

He had more than a rough start last year. He played in 96 games with the Rangers and hit .235/.287/.384. Much of that came after he put up a .352/.428/.698 line with 15 homers in 44 Triple-A games.

So what he's doing now isn't really any different. He just goes up there and hacks at everything and he's able to run into a bunch of average fastballs in the minors. That doesn't happen in the Majors.

I think the Rangers were high on him early in the season, because he appeared to be focusing. He was running noticeably faster and he improved his plate discipline. But since early in the season, he's been the same old free-swinger.

Brick Tamland
07-21-08, 02:51 PM
Damon seems to be coming back. That means that Gardner will be going back to Scranton until September when he returns as a pinch runner, hopefully for the playoff roster as well.

How exactly does another LFer, even Holliday, make the Y's a real WS contender? Posada looks like he is not an everyday catcher, at least until next year after surgery. Is it clear that even Holliday or Bay is going to bring a lot more offense than would Posada and Damon, some more probably, but a lot more? (I am skeptical of Holliday's home-away splits.)

On the other hand, the Yankees are not going any place in the playoffs with the current starting pitching, and Wang's return seems problematic. I can't believe that folks are comfortable with Ponson as the 4th starter. Arroyo is, granted, a stupid idea, but that does not mean that the need is not greater in the starting rotation.

I am not against getting Holliday, Bay or some other corner LFer, or even better someone with a RF arm, but anyone who is willing to trade Hughes or Jackson to try to win this year with this starting pitching staff is willing to go back to the old win now system.

How many of you who are willing to give up the best pitching prospect or the best positional prospect not on the current roster also complain about the Y's having long term bloated contracts with veterans? The only way to avoid having a lot of those contracts and to have a chance to win is to keep your best prospects.

1. That's perfectly fair that you are wary of his splits, but to be fair, he is a .301 hitter with a .400 OBP and an .859 OPS away from Coors this season. That's better than almost anyone on the Yankees not named ARod or Giambi.

2. It's not that I am comfortable with Ponson and Raz but who are the Yanks going to go after? Arroyo not even worth discussing. They get Wang back in September. That's Wang, Pettitte, Moose, Joba, Hughes/Raz/Sidney. That is a credible rotation.

3. If Holliday is going to cost the Yankees Hughes, then I'd probably pass. I still believe he has the chance to be a top of the rotation starter and he is still only 21 yrs old. I'm not saying sell off the farm to win now. But if you have a glut of quality arms like the Yankees do, why not try to package some to net a STUD LF? There are 5 spots in the rotation, all these guys down on the farm are not going to make the rotation. Kennedy still has good value, Tabata is a valuable trade chip. Of course I have no idea what CO are asking for, but it is my belief that there are packages out there that would net Holliday without trading away all the crown jewels of the system. Obviously you have to give something to get something.

themgmt
07-21-08, 03:08 PM
Posada on the DL... Matsui out for the year umm. Yeah, trade the farm for Holliday, immediately, seriously.

Tabata Horne McCutchen Cox Ohlendorf

Send them out.

rajah
07-21-08, 03:26 PM
Panic time!!!

Putting Damon's noodle arm back in CF makes me want to panic, by the way.

primetime714
07-21-08, 03:32 PM
Posada on the DL... Matsui out for the year umm. Yeah, trade the farm for Holliday, immediately, seriously.

Tabata Horne McCutchen Cox Ohlendorf

Send them out.

That's not exactly "trading the farm" in fact that's not an offer I think the Rockies would be too keen on. Tabata is the only propsect on that list with much of a ceiling and his stock has fallen quite a bit lately.

The Yankees have no realistic shot at trading for Holliday without Hughes or Jackson in the deal.

TheGameEpisode2
07-21-08, 03:43 PM
Why does a new left fielder have to push Damon back to CF?

The new guy could DH most of the time, alternating with Damon, Giambi, and Sexson every other day.

Damon, Melky, Abreu against righties with new guy on DH
New Guy, Melky, Abreu against righties when Damon as DH when Damon needs rest
New Guy, Damon, Abreu, with Giambi at DH and Sexson at first with against a lefty...

and so on and so on.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 03:46 PM
Panic time!!!

Putting Damon's noodle arm back in CF makes me want to panic, by the way.

Doesn't make me panic as much as having Melky as our full-time CFer. Holiday or Bay in left, Damon in CF, would greatly improve our team.

TheGameEpisode2
07-21-08, 03:47 PM
Doesn't make me panic as much as having Melky as our full-time CFer. Holiday or Bay in left, Damon in CF, would greatly improve our team.

^Truth.

scooterfan
07-21-08, 03:48 PM
The Yankees have no realistic shot at trading for Holliday without Hughes or Jackson in the deal.

It sure sounds like Jorge Posada could be facing season-ending surgery

It's pretty doubtful Matsui is returning this year

It's a crap shoot if Wang and Hughes return in September

There's a LOT of holes to fill - and trading enough prospects to fill those holes seems a little reckless to me.

primetime714
07-21-08, 03:56 PM
It sure sounds like Jorge Posada could be facing season-ending surgery

It's pretty doubtful Matsui is returning this year

It's a crap shoot if Wang and Hughes return in September

There's a LOT of holes to fill - and trading enough prospects to fill those holes seems a little reckless to me.

Totally agree and I'm not advocating trading either of those guys. I was simply stating what it would cost to get conversations started. No way the Rox would deal Holliday without at least Hughes or Jackson as the centerpiece. Given the state of the team that doesn't make a whole lot of sense for us. Although I might consider a Jackson deal as Holliday is a premier player who could help us for a long time. Still very doubtful though that it happens.

scooterfan
07-21-08, 04:01 PM
Totally agree and I'm not advocating trading either of those guys. I was simply stating what it would cost to get conversations started. No way the Rox would deal Holliday without at least Hughes or Jackson as the centerpiece. Given the state of the team that doesn't make a whole lot of sense for us. Although I might consider a Jackson deal as Holliday is a premier player who could help us for a long time. Still very doubtful though that it happens.

I completely agree - and if I'm Colorado, I start the bidding at Ajax AND Hughes. The guy had an MVP-caliber year last year, and is only 28.

I think it's time to think about positioning the team best for 2009. Maybe you give Matt Carson and Juan Miranda some at bats; and you give Aceves Rasner's spot in the rotation.

Maybe you can pick up Raul Ibanez on the cheap

Just say 'no' to the Barry Bonds circus

primetime714
07-21-08, 04:15 PM
I completely agree - and if I'm Colorado, I start the bidding at Ajax AND Hughes. The guy had an MVP-caliber year last year, and is only 28.

I think it's time to think about positioning the team best for 2009. Maybe you give Matt Carson and Juan Miranda some at bats; and you give Aceves Rasner's spot in the rotation.

Maybe you can pick up Raul Ibanez on the cheap

Just say 'no' to the Barry Bonds circus

I agree although I don't know how well we are positioning ourselves for 2009 by bringing up Carson and Miranda. Both of these guys are fringe starters at best. If the Yankees fall out of it I'd look to put some of our prospect in favorable situations to raise their values, so give Miranda ABs against right handed pitching only and give guys like McCutchen, Horne, Aceves and Kennedy a few starts against weak competition.

Although I do like the idea of signing Bonds. Yes, it will be a circus but it is one of the few moves we can make to improve our offense without possibly damaging our future.

Ibanez has enough interest where he won't come cheap especially when you consider he could be a Type A FA. Plus while we do need offense I still wouldn't trade for a left handed bat who is a terrible fielder.

Jumpman_DJ
07-21-08, 05:16 PM
I completely agree - and if I'm Colorado, I start the bidding at Ajax AND Hughes. The guy had an MVP-caliber year last year, and is only 28.

I think it's time to think about positioning the team best for 2009. Maybe you give Matt Carson and Juan Miranda some at bats; and you give Aceves Rasner's spot in the rotation.

Maybe you can pick up Raul Ibanez on the cheap

Just say 'no' to the Barry Bonds circus

The one thing i really worry about is whats holidays contract status like. I mean is hea gonna be a free agent anytime soon, because if he progresses like he has he will cost us min. $18 mil a year. i thought we are trying to shed that monster of a payroll.

rajah
07-21-08, 05:29 PM
Doesn't make me panic as much as having Melky as our full-time CFer. Holiday or Bay in left, Damon in CF, would greatly improve our team.

I would like to see some statistical analysis of the difference in offense versus the difference in defense. I assume that the offensive improvement would be larger, but I am not sure that it would be "greatly". From what I understand Holliday is a better defensive option as well as offensive, though also more expensive.

Anyway, whatever it would be, it is not worth giving away the future to try to satisfy the demands of the fans to have a wild card entry that doesn't have the pitching, and OF defense, to win in the post season.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
07-21-08, 05:42 PM
Brad Hawpe is a realistic corner OFer with the arm to play right. His Road splits are far from terrible and the short porch would probably help him maintain his home numbers to some degree. He's left handed and sucks against lefties, but I think he's a guy the Yankees should look at anyway.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 06:02 PM
I would like to see some statistical analysis of the difference in offense versus the difference in defense. I assume that the offensive improvement would be larger, but I am not sure that it would be "greatly". From what I understand Holliday is a better defensive option as well as offensive, though also more expensive.

The difference between Holliday and Damon as opposed to Damon and Melky is so great its not even worth arguing.

Anyway, whatever it would be, it is not worth giving away the future to try to satisfy the demands of the fans to have a wild card entry that doesn't have the pitching, and OF defense, to win in the post season.
Holliday is also signed for 09' Sacraficing the future, hows that? This team is stacked with pitching, I'd love to trade for a stud corner outfielder who is great defensively and is entering his prime. I have absolutely no qualms trading Hughes for Holliday, I'll even throw in Melky.

Yankee Steve
07-21-08, 07:07 PM
I absolutely agree!

BennyTheJetRodriguez
07-21-08, 07:18 PM
I'll even throw in Melky. You don't say...

Matt
07-21-08, 07:28 PM
How exactly does another LFer, even Holliday, make the Y's a real WS contender? Posada looks like he is not an everyday catcher, at least until next year after surgery. Is it clear that even Holliday or Bay is going to bring a lot more offense than would Posada and Damon, some more probably, but a lot more? (I am skeptical of Holliday's home-away splits.)


Holliday should have been the NL MVP last year, he's 28, an all-star, he carried the Rockies to the World Series, he would give the Yankees a power RH bat which they need, he plays very solid defense and has good speed for his size. And he wouldn't be a rental for just this season either. How does he NOT help the Yankees quite a bit?

If the Yankees make the playoffs, which he can help them to do, there's a very real chance that he would help get them to the WS. He helped a much inferior team do that last season.

Holliday is a much better all-around player, including offensively, than Posada/Damon/Bay. He's not a great player simply because he plays in Colorado.

Cheesyhoboe
07-21-08, 07:50 PM
Is it worth it to trade Hughes and Jackson for Holliday when you could probably get Bay for Tabata and Kennedy? Don't fool yourself into thinking we're going to steal Holliday somehow. There's no rush for Colorado to trade him and they'll be wanting the greatest possible value they can get for him.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 07:52 PM
You don't say...

I'm in a giving mood today.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 07:55 PM
Is it worth it to trade Hughes and Jackson for Holliday when you could probably get Bay for Tabata and Kennedy? Don't fool yourself into thinking we're going to steal Holliday somehow. There's no rush for Colorado to trade him and they'll be wanting the greatest possible value they can get for him.

The Yankees should not trade Hughes and Jackson for Holliday. If we could get Bay for Kennedy and Tabata it would be done by now.

Cheesyhoboe
07-21-08, 08:01 PM
The Yankees should not trade Hughes and Jackson for Holliday. If we could get Bay for Kennedy and Tabata it would be done by now.

Says you. According to a recent article the Pirates have just begun seriously scouting the Yankees' farm system and we don't even know if Cash would do that deal.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-21-08, 08:42 PM
Says you. According to a recent article the Pirates have just begun seriously scouting the Yankees' farm system and we don't even know if Cash would do that deal.

OK, the Pirates have been scouting the Yankees system, why are you assuming the Yankees could get Bay with Tabata and Kennedy?

Cheesyhoboe
07-21-08, 08:53 PM
OK, the Pirates have been scouting the Yankees system, why are you assuming the Yankees could get Bay with Tabata and Kennedy?

Missing the point. I obviously don't know if the Yanks could get Bay for Tabata and Kennedy, just like you don't know if they couldn't. The point is the price for Holliday is going to be very high. The prices for Bay and Nady? High, but not as high.

just-blaze
07-21-08, 09:37 PM
It's going to take a monster deal for the Rangers to trade Bradley. Why would the Rangers give up Bradley for a middle relief prospect and another "low-end" pitcher? They could get that by trading Nelson Cruz and Frank Catalanotto. They'd get more by just offering him arbitration and letting him walk after this season.

Besides, as someone said above, how is Bradley overrated? He's an MVP candidate this season.

As silly as it was for the poster to suggest that trade for Bradley, it is just as silly to think that Cruz/Catalanatto would net them the same package.......if that was true, it would have been done by now.

just-blaze
07-21-08, 09:42 PM
Who do you want facing Ortiz in the 8th inning of a tie game in the ALCS, Farnsworth.. or Marte?

v. Farnsworth

0-7
4 Ks
3 BBs
300 OPS

v. Marte

2-7
2 Ks
2 BBs
1 HR
1158 OPS

Ill take Farnsworth, thank you.

rajah
07-21-08, 09:56 PM
Right. We all understand that Holliday has developed into a fine player and would be a great addition to any team. Though there has to be some question about the Colorado impact on his stats, you would definitely take him if you could do so for a package of prospects that don't include your very best. But we also all should know that you can't do that. Hughes and the low value Melky ain't going to get it done, even if you are willing to give up on Hughes.

The real question is whether you are going to trade a package of your very top prospects for a guy who is one and a half years away from free agency. Doing so does sacrifice the future for the current season, unless you think that he is going to be worth a huge long range contract after 2009. It might make sense if he puts you in position to win the WS this year. But I remain skeptical of that with the current starting pitching.

And you can't have Damon play CF. I can't believe that some people have forgotten what it was like to have Bernie at his end, a Damon-type player in CF. Damon's arm has declined from a very low level and his range is down as well. Holliday would replace Damon in LF and Damon would be relegated to sharing DH, otherwise the improvement in the offense would be mitigated to some undetermined extent by the loss of defense.

philleotardo
07-21-08, 10:07 PM
Well put by Peter Abraham:




http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/07/21/breaking-down-the-trade-deadline/

themgmt
07-21-08, 10:11 PM
Cashman isn't going to do anything by the way. It's fun to speculate though

Jumpman_DJ
07-21-08, 10:33 PM
Well put by Peter Abraham:






http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2008/07/21/breaking-down-the-trade-deadline/


Thats the most honest thing a reporter has ever said. Well put indeed.:clap:

KeithF40
07-22-08, 12:16 AM
OMG its LF, I could play LF. LF in Yankee Stadium is a difficult left but its LEFT. How many more outs do you think Holliday is making over Dunn.

Hit>BB always. GO/FO/LO>SO overall.

<RANT>
Guess who's going to the DL?

Yes ladies and gentleman you guessed it, the 36 year old catcher that we have signed to a large contract until he's 40. How does Brian Cashman have a job? George I love you, but he has got to go, sign 50 percent of this board or just have every decision be a vote on here and you would have a better result.
</RANT>

How can you not just love that RF porch for Dunn? HOW!!!!

Statistics, with a large enough sample size, ARE INDEED a science, in practice pretty much an exact science.

Ricardi is an idiot, have you seen the Jays record since he got there and the team that they put on the field? Dunn has more HRs than anyone on that team, it's like the 1896 Pirates out there. He's another moron GM that needs to have his job stripped from him.

JL25and3
07-22-08, 05:44 AM
Who do you want facing Ortiz in the 8th inning of a tie game in the ALCS, Farnsworth.. or Marte?I'm not going to give up two prospects for the sake of a single at-bat - that may not even happen.

Yankee Steve
07-22-08, 05:45 AM
Yanks trade Hughes and others (not including Jackson) to Colorado for Holliday - not both. Holliday in LF, Jackson in CF (in 2009). Put Damon in RF (or Melky if he is still around) and let Abreu walk. ESPECIALLY now that JoPo is on the DL and likely gone for the season and ESPECIALLY where Matsui is likely to follow suit, the team needs offense and better OF defense.

yanksphan
07-22-08, 06:00 AM
Statistics, with a large enough sample size, ARE INDEED a science, in practice pretty much an exact science.


In practice? How do you execute statistical evidence? It's just recorded history - you can't do anything with it, but examine it and make guesses for the future based on it.

It's merely evidence of what happened in the past. In your previous example (Holliday's road splits) you attempted to extrapolate past historical data, and manipulate it to tell us what will happen when he becomes a Yankee. It's fine to make a guess of what could happen - but guessing isn't "exact science."

If it were an "exact science" - Johan Santana wouldn't be struggling in the NL with an 8-7 record. Lester and Dice-K wouldn't combine for a 1.40WHIP yet net a 3.08ERA with a 17-4 combined record. There's a human element involved which doesn't allow for "exact science".

NYDCYankee
07-22-08, 06:03 AM
Yanks trade Hughes and others (not including Jackson) to Colorado for Holliday - not both. Holliday in LF, Jackson in CF (in 2009). Put Damon in RF (or Melky if he is still around) and let Abreu walk. ESPECIALLY now that JoPo is on the DL and likely gone for the season and ESPECIALLY where Matsui is likely to follow suit, the team needs offense and better OF defense.

And you think putting Johnny Damon in RF will give the Yankees better outfield defense? Really?

Really?

themgmt
07-22-08, 07:34 AM
I'm not going to give up two prospects for the sake of a single at-bat - that may not even happen.


Two prospects that may never be league average pitchers.

Or worse yet, two prospects that may never throw a major league pitch.


Not every prospect will turn to gold.

BRNXBMRS
07-22-08, 07:45 AM
Yanks trade Hughes and others (not including Jackson) to Colorado for Holliday - not both. Holliday in LF, Jackson in CF (in 2009). Put Damon in RF (or Melky if he is still around) and let Abreu walk. ESPECIALLY now that JoPo is on the DL and likely gone for the season and ESPECIALLY where Matsui is likely to follow suit, the team needs offense and better OF defense.
Hughes is on the DL and not coming off before the 7/31 deadline.

Brick Tamland
07-22-08, 08:28 AM
Hughes is on the DL and not coming off before the 7/31 deadline.

Moot issue. Cashman will not deal Hughes.

JL25and3
07-22-08, 08:36 AM
Two prospects that may never be league average pitchers.

Or worse yet, two prospects that may never throw a major league pitch.


Not every prospect will turn to gold.I agree with that. I'm not saying they're blue chips. But whatever trade value they may have shouldn't be spent on middle relief. It's a bad value, and it's not a pressing need.

MaximMan121
07-22-08, 08:42 AM
In practice? How do you execute statistical evidence? It's just recorded history - you can't do anything with it, but examine it and make guesses for the future based on it.

It's merely evidence of what happened in the past. In your previous example (Holliday's road splits) you attempted to extrapolate past historical data, and manipulate it to tell us what will happen when he becomes a Yankee. It's fine to make a guess of what could happen - but guessing isn't "exact science."

If it were an "exact science" - Johan Santana wouldn't be struggling in the NL with an 8-7 record. Lester and Dice-K wouldn't combine for a 1.40WHIP yet net a 3.08ERA with a 17-4 combined record. There's a human element involved which doesn't allow for "exact science".

He has no idea what he just said.

Zimmer's Helmet
07-22-08, 08:52 AM
I would be hesitant to trade Tabata or Jackson for say a Nady. It seems extremely short-sighted & I thought we were moving away from that kind of thinking.

Tabata's stock has taken a serious hit this year. His lack of production, compounded with some serious discipline issues; have me seriously questioning whether he even makes it to the major leagues at this point.

Jackson is light years ahead of Tabata right now; it's not even close.

Tabata for Nady? At this point, I make that deal in a heartbeat.

themgmt
07-22-08, 08:58 AM
Tabata in a deal for Nady? No way. I like Nady but he just isn't that good. Tabata in a deal for Nady and Marte, book it.

ppa79
07-22-08, 08:58 AM
Tabata's stock has taken a serious hit this year. His lack of production, compounded with some serious discipline issues; have me seriously questioning whether he even makes it to the major leagues at this point.

Jackson is light years ahead of Tabata right now; it's not even close.

Tabata for Nady? At this point, I make that deal in a heartbeat.

They would probably want both plus Kennedy.

The Pirates are greedy.

Zimmer's Helmet
07-22-08, 09:08 AM
They would probably want both plus Kennedy.

The Pirates are greedy.

..and crazy as well if that's what they're going to want.

AJ is not going anywhere and neither should Kennedy unless he's part of a deal that can bring a much bigger return than Nady.

Like I said, I have my doubts about Tabata. I would trade him in a heartbeat for Nady; but I wouldn't be willing to part with any other prime prospects in order to acquire him.

Zimmer's Helmet
07-22-08, 09:14 AM
Tabata in a deal for Nady? No way. I like Nady but he just isn't that good. Tabata in a deal for Nady and Marte, book it.

I think that you may be seriously overestimating Tabata's value. He is struggling badly this year and has demonstrated that his mental makeup may not be up to handling the pressures of professional baseball.

If he can't handle the pressures of playing AA ball in Trenton; he won't last one week playing for the New York Yankees.

THEBOSS84
07-22-08, 09:18 AM
I think that you may be seriously overestimating Tabata's value. He is struggling badly this year and has demonstrated that his mental makeup may not be up to handling the pressures of professional baseball.

If he can't handle the pressures of playing AA ball in Trenton; he won't last one week playing for the New York Yankees.

I am not Tabata's biggest fan, yet I would still have a problem with trading him for Nady. That is us selling low and the Pirates selling high. Horrible formula to make a deal.

themgmt
07-22-08, 09:19 AM
I think that you may be seriously overestimating Tabata's value. He is struggling badly this year and has demonstrated that his mental makeup may not be up to handling the pressures of professional baseball.

If he can't handle the pressures of playing AA ball in Trenton; he won't last one week playing for the New York Yankees.

It's not about Tabata. I just don't think Nady is that good. If you read earlier in the thread, I'd ship Tabata out no problem. In fact I'd ship almost anyone out.

Also, Tabata's value in the eyes of scouts is not as fickle as it is in the eyes of fans.

Zimmer's Helmet
07-22-08, 09:33 AM
I am not Tabata's biggest fan, yet I would still have a problem with trading him for Nady. That is us selling low and the Pirates selling high. Horrible formula to make a deal.

I understand your point and I agree; it certainly isn't a good formula to making deals; however in this case it may be the exception for the reason being that I doubt that Tabata will ever contribute anything to this team yet someone like Nady can certainly help this team.

If Tabata can even be a serviceable major leaguer one day is doubtful at this point IMO.

BRNXBMRS
07-22-08, 09:36 AM
Moot issue. Cashman will not deal Hughes.

I know that, you know that, but a bunch of people here want to trade him.

Zimmer's Helmet
07-22-08, 09:38 AM
It's not about Tabata. I just don't think Nady is that good. If you read earlier in the thread, I'd ship Tabata out no problem. In fact I'd ship almost anyone out.

Also, Tabata's value in the eyes of scouts is not as fickle as it is in the eyes of fans.

I don't expect Nady to be an impact player for the Yankees. He is what he is - journeyman outfielder who is enjoying a career year. That being said, I do believe that he can certainly help this ballclub and at this point, he's a better option in RF than Bobby Abreu for this year and 2009 IMO.

Jumpman_DJ
07-22-08, 09:38 AM
Dealing Tabata and Kennedy in the same deal better net us alot more than Nady. Marte and Bay for something along the lines of Kennnedy, Tabata and Another prospect or two.

IM sure most people here will roast me on this but in fairness, IM not sold on Kennedy or tabata and whatever else we deal is just a prospect( as of now) WE have seen what prospects turn into such as ruben rivera, juan rivera, ricky ledee-from across town Alex ochoa and alex escobar to name a few.

Cashman didnt use our chips for a top notch starter so i dont see why he would use one of them now for a middle releiver and an outfielder.

Brick Tamland
07-22-08, 09:41 AM
I don't expect Nady to be an impact player for the Yankees. He is what he is - journeyman outfielder who is enjoying a career year. That being said, I do believe that he can certainly help this ballclub and at this point, he's a better option in RF than Bobby Abreu for this year and 2009 IMO.


I guess if he's the only viable option than Nady would be fine depending on what you give up. Holliday or Bay would be so much better.

primetime714
07-22-08, 09:48 AM
I am not Tabata's biggest fan, yet I would still have a problem with trading him for Nady. That is us selling low and the Pirates selling high. Horrible formula to make a deal.

I'd hate to sell low on Tabata, but Nady is actually a decent value. A solid right handed bat that plays a good corner OF or 1B. I'd do that, but I agree with the principle of don't sell low or buy high. That's why I'd like to see the Yankees go after a guy like Bedard whose value has plummeted. Although his injury complicates that situation.

ucfjon
07-22-08, 09:53 AM
I think that you may be seriously overestimating Tabata's value. He is struggling badly this year and has demonstrated that his mental makeup may not be up to handling the pressures of professional baseball.

If he can't handle the pressures of playing AA ball in Trenton; he won't last one week playing for the New York Yankees.

People said the same thing about Hanley Ramirez.

Derek2HOF
07-22-08, 09:56 AM
People said the same thing about Hanley Ramirez.

What is Tabata 20? Can we give the kid a few years to grow. Mentally and physically.

Yankee Fan in Boston
07-22-08, 09:57 AM
People said the same thing about Hanley Ramirez.

And, given that his value is low, I think it is probably the wrong time to try and deal him unless someone else thinks very highly of him.

NYYWilliams51
07-22-08, 09:58 AM
The day Heyman breaks any worthwhile news will be the first.

Yeah, it's not like the A-Rod trade was worthwhile news or anything.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 10:10 AM
What is Tabata 20? Can we give the kid a few years to grow. Mentally and physically.

While Hanley was said to had attitude problems, there were no questions about his ability as a baseball player. According to scouts Tabata's swing has looked like a disaster this season. Also, he's yet to show any of the power he was projected for since signing. While he's still 19 (and about to turn 20 next month), the clock is slowly ticking away each year for him. It's possible he might never develop the power at all.

Yankee Fan in Boston
07-22-08, 10:19 AM
While Hanley was said to had attitude problems, there were no questions about his ability as a baseball player. According to scouts Tabata's swing has looked like a disaster this season. Also, he's yet to show any of the power he was projected for since signing. While he's still 19 (and about to turn 20 next month), the clock is slowly ticking away each year for him. It's possible he might never develop the power at all.

Actually, he was pretty inconsistent in the minors, and people wondered if he would ever put it together. I think they just need to give young Tabata another year in AA (he'll still only be 20 next year) and see what happens.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 10:26 AM
Actually, he was pretty inconsistent in the minors, and people wondered if he would ever put it together. I think they just need to give young Tabata another year in AA (he'll still only be 20 next year) and see what happens.

Yeah, but he always had all the tools. Tabata is all projection besides his greatest asset and what made him so highly valued as a teenager, the hit tool. His speed has actually declined and his power has yet to show up. I think it's time to start getting worried about him.

Yankee Fan in Boston
07-22-08, 10:28 AM
Yeah, but he always had all the tools. Tabata is all projection besides his greatest asset and what made him so highly valued as a teenager, the hit tool. His speed has actually declined and his power has yet to show up. I think it's time to start getting worried about him.

yeah, and he'll drop in the offseason rankings. I do think it's a little early to get too concerned though -- even if he plays all next year at AA, he could start AAA when he is 21

b_joseph
07-22-08, 11:00 AM
Yeah, but he always had all the tools. Tabata is all projection besides his greatest asset and what made him so highly valued as a teenager, the hit tool. His speed has actually declined and his power has yet to show up. I think it's time to start getting worried about him.Actually his speed was ok. He had 10 stolen bases already this year, which is super impressive considering that he only had an OBP of 320 and saw less than 300 AB's.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
07-22-08, 11:01 AM
Andrew McCutchen hit .258, .327, .383 in AA as a 20 year old. Tabata isn't the first teenager to struggle in AA. His value probably isn't what it was last year, but the Yankees have no reason to sell low on him.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 11:43 AM
Actually his speed was ok. He had 10 stolen bases already this year, which is super impressive considering that he only had an OBP of 320 and saw less than 300 AB's.

His SBs are more a result of his base stealing ability than his actual speed, though his speed isn't bad, it's just declined from it was before according to scouts.

themgmt
07-22-08, 11:46 AM
His speed... declined.... in 6 calendar months.. at the age of 19? Yeah I'm not buying that.


Also, it isn't like Hanley was killing the ball in AA when he and Sanchez netted Beckett and a salary dump in Lowell. Prospects don't fall out of favor in under 80 games at AA, especially at 19 in their first taste of AA. He also showed signs of heating up before he went down. Granted, it would look better if he was hitting .300 but it's not like he's turned into a failure over night

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 11:49 AM
That's what the scouts say, but then again there are mixed reports on his speed. Baseballprospectus even said he has "below average speed" in a recent article.

themgmt
07-22-08, 11:59 AM
How can anyone explain a 19 year old losing speed? He's a small guy, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Which scout said he lost speed and what reason did they give?

THEBOSS84
07-22-08, 12:22 PM
From Olney:



SportsNation Buster Olney: (1:13 PM ET ) Sal: I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't been critical of the Yankees' staff lately; it's the offense that I've been critical of. BTW: The Yankees are taking a look at Jarrod Washburn, who has a career ERA of 2.82 ERA in Yankee Stadium. He'd fit them perfectly, for 2008 and 2009 -- he had a sub-3.00 ERA in June and has similar numbers in July. We'll see what happens.

Follow up -


JR (NY): Who would the Yanks have to give up to get a guy like Washburn?

SportsNation Buster Olney: (1:22 PM ET ) JR: Kei Igawa, and another secondary prospect. They're taking on a lot of money (about $13-14 million), so they won't have to give up much.

More


Jacob (Brooklyn): Do you really think Washburn is a good fit with the Yankees because he has a good ERA in 38.1 innings at Yankee Stadium?

SportsNation Buster Olney: (1:26 PM ET ) Jacob: I think it's a factor they will look at -- he's a lefty flyball pitcher who changes speeds well and has a nice post-season history. To me, he's a perfect fit for them, the way that George Sherrill makes complete sense for the Brewers or the Angels.

John (NY): Why all the Washburn rumors? Where is this originating from?

SportsNation Buster Olney: (1:27 PM ET ) John: It should be on our site. I filed something an hour ago (but haven't checked) on it. It is being discussed seriously by the Yankees.

YanksFanTillDeath
07-22-08, 12:28 PM
From Olney:




Follow up -

^ Igawa :D:D:D I believe it when I see it...

ppa79
07-22-08, 12:28 PM
From Olney:




Follow up -

Interesting. Washburn is intriguing.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 12:28 PM
Hmmm...

What's the lesser of two evils, Igawa or Washburn?

R.V.47
07-22-08, 12:28 PM
From Olney:




Follow up -

I guess he is better than Rasner, and he has some big game experience but I would only want him as a rental for the rest of the year.

ppa79
07-22-08, 12:31 PM
Hmmm...

What's the lesser of two evils, Igawa or Washburn?

Washburn is a major league pitcher. Igawa is a AAAA pitcher.

R.V.47
07-22-08, 12:32 PM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07222008/sports/yankees/last_call_for_ailing_godzilla_120987.htm

Yanks are scouting Derek Lowe.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 12:32 PM
Washburn is a major league pitcher. Igawa is a AAAA pitcher.

Sure, but the problem is that Washburn has a 4. Year. Contract.

ppa79
07-22-08, 12:35 PM
Sure, but the problem is that Washburn has a 4. Year. Contract.

It comes down to will getting Washburn prevent the Yanks from getting whoever they want in the offseason?

He would be a nice injury policy for next year, incase Kennedy, Hughes, etc, struggle.

He is capable of pitching 200 innings and giving you a 4.5 era.

THEBOSS84
07-22-08, 12:35 PM
I would be all over this if I were the Yanks (moving Andy to 1b):


Mike (Albany, NY): Hi Buster, It sounds like Andy LaRoche is on his way out of L.A. Any idea if the Dodgers are in on Beltre? Or another SS/3B?

SportsNation Buster Olney: (1:34 PM ET ) Mike: There are a bunch of teams who've talked about LaRoche, but they've gotten very frustrated in dealing with the Dodgers. He is the one guy among the many L.A. prospects that rival execs say is clearly, absolutely available. So yes, I think he'll be traded. To whom, I'm not yet sure.

teknetic
07-22-08, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't mind getting Washburn..just so he wouldn't pitch against us (he absolutely owns the Yanks)

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 12:39 PM
I'm not sure our pieces match up with the Dodgers' so well. They need major league bats and we can't spare any of ours.

gold23
07-22-08, 12:46 PM
Washburn would be an amazing addition. First, he's a consistently decent to a little above that major league pitcher. His contract, while high, is only for one more year after this.

Worst case, you have a lefty pitcher as your #5 at some point. He's worlds better than Darrel Rasner and Ponson, whatever Sidney has provided to date.

ShaneTravis
07-22-08, 12:55 PM
Igawa for Wahburn? You don't think twice about that.

Cashman would have the plane tickets before he hung up the phone.

ppa79
07-22-08, 12:58 PM
I say go for it.

Someone pull the trigger.

JeffWeaverFan
07-22-08, 12:59 PM
Eh, except when Washburn pitches against us, he usually has sucked.

This year he has a K/9 of 5.32, a K/BB of 2.03, and a G/F of .97.

For comparison, Rasner's numbers are 6.18, 2.56, .92. And Ponson is 4.14, 1.33, 2.39. I just don't think he's much of an upgrade over either guy.

edit: Getting rid of Igawa would be nice though.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 01:00 PM
Huh, now this is interesting.




Matt Holliday (Denver): Buster, have you ever looked at my home/ road splits? Why would any GM pay top price for such an obvious product of Coors Field as myself?

Buster Olney: (1:59 PM ET ) Matt: That's part of the reason why the Rockies might have a tough time receiving what they deem to be equal value for you. Although I did have two scouts mention to me that Holliday in Yankee Stadium would be a monster, because he can hit the right field porch all the time.



I still don't want to give our best prospects for him, though.

webassign
07-22-08, 01:04 PM
How can they trade away the beloved Kei Igawa?


Huh, now this is interesting.
I still don't want to give our best prospects for him, though.
Haha, I love it when callers/readers do stuff like that.

Brick Tamland
07-22-08, 01:15 PM
Huh, now this is interesting.



I still don't want to give our best prospects for him, though.


If Holliday is dealt on the cheap b/c of his home/road splits the acquiring team will be getting a tremendous deal IMO. I hope Cashman is in on these talks with O'Dowd.

ppa79
07-22-08, 01:17 PM
If Holliday is dealt on the cheap b/c of his home/road splits the acquiring team will be getting a tremendous deal IMO. I hope Cashman is in on these talks with O'Dowd.

He probably is. Everyone is available except Hughes, AJ, and Montero.

themgmt
07-22-08, 01:17 PM
Citing Washburn's numbers in YS is senseless. He has good numbers in YS because he dominates the Yankees, not because he likes the mound or anything.

Ghost of Dan Pasqua
07-22-08, 01:22 PM
Washburn does make sense, especially if the M's take Igawa back as it'll help even out the salary situation. He's a lefty, used to pitching in big games. One thing that I did like about Washburn is his makeup. Remember last year when Josh Phelps plowed Joijima, pretty much unneccessarily? Washburn waited for Phelps to come back up to the plate and drilled him. That is a similar attitude that Girardi has brought back to the team after Torre turned them into the book and needle club for years.

As for next year, bringing Washburn on gives the Yankees insurance in case Pettitte or Mussina don't come back. I'm for this move.

themgmt
07-22-08, 01:23 PM
Matt Holliday (Denver): Buster, have you ever looked at my home/ road splits? Why would any GM pay top price for such an obvious product of Coors Field as myself?

Buster Olney: (1:59 PM ET ) Matt: That's part of the reason why the Rockies might have a tough time receiving what they deem to be equal value for you. Although I did have two scouts mention to me that Holliday in Yankee Stadium would be a monster, because he can hit the right field porch all the time.

I've been saying this since I looked at his numbers, and I'm no scout. Holliday's numbers will translate well in YS. Cash needs to get Holliday.

But if last year's trades (Jose Molina and Wilson Betemit) are any indication, it's not happening. I'd ship out Tabata and 4 other prospects of their choice, don't care who (Jackson/Montero excluded, wouldn't sell low on Kennedy either)

gold23
07-22-08, 01:24 PM
Citing Washburn's numbers in YS is senseless. He has good numbers in YS because he dominates the Yankees, not because he likes the mound or anything.

Well, not sure that's 100% accurate. I agree it has a lot to do...but Washburn IS a lefty and IS a flyball pitcher, two traits that do work in his favor in YS.

themgmt
07-22-08, 01:39 PM
I'm not using that point to assert whether or not Washburn would be a good acquisition.. just stating his numbers in Yankee stadium, in an era when the Yankees have struggled against LHP, don't really speak to me.

If all they're asking for is Kei Igawa and some other marginal prospect. I'd do it just to get rid of Igawa, even if Washburn became a long reliever.

Bleacher_Creature
07-22-08, 01:41 PM
Crap....I started a thread on the Washburn thing....sorry.

KeithF40
07-22-08, 04:48 PM
Johan has a 3.10 ERA and has to face the Braves, Marlins, and Phillies(scary) lineups. Alot harder than Clev, a struggling Chi team last year, a Det team that wasn't as good as this year, and KC. Record does not represent performance look at Moose beginning of year vs lately.

KeithF40
07-22-08, 04:49 PM
Yeah let's trade Hughes at his all time low value, Cashman loves this guy he is going NOWHERE, rightfully so, well all depends but def not for Holliday.

Damon has no arm, lets put him in right. Haha was that a joke.

HelloNewman
07-22-08, 05:13 PM
I'm not using that point to assert whether or not Washburn would be a good acquisition.. just stating his numbers in Yankee stadium, in an era when the Yankees have struggled against LHP, don't really speak to me.Incorrect. The Yankees haven't "struggled" against LHP, at least not until this season. They have been somewhat less effective against LHP than against RHP, but this was an elite offense before this season, so it's a relative thing.

Yankee OPS+ vs. lefties, 2003-08:
03: 108
04: 120 (they were actually much better against LHP than RHP this season)
05: 114
06: 108
07: 104
08: 99

Where these numbers would have ranked the Yankees in the AL compared to the number put up by the other teams against ALL pitching:

03: 2nd
04: 1st
05: 1st
06: 2nd
07: 3rd
08: 8th

They haven't struggled against lefties at all until this year. They were just extra-potent against righties.

HelloNewman
07-22-08, 05:16 PM
Well, not sure that's 100% accurate. I agree it has a lot to do...but Washburn IS a lefty and IS a flyball pitcher, two traits that do work in his favor in YS.Bingo.

scooterfan
07-22-08, 05:44 PM
Suzyn Waldman just reported that the Pirates like Tampa's prospects, and Nady could end up in Tampa

She also reported that Greg Maddox will only approve a deal to a west-coast team

BrandonA33
07-22-08, 05:48 PM
Hughes is on the DL and not coming off before the 7/31 deadline.You beat me to it...leave Hughes out...he just threw a 35 pitch BP the other day, and is scheduled for 45 in 2-3 days...No way he can be traded in the next 11 days, move on

BennyTheJetRodriguez
07-22-08, 05:57 PM
Hughes can still be a player to be named later. Not that I want him traded.

Yankee Steve
07-22-08, 07:21 PM
Yeah let's trade Hughes at his all time low value, Cashman loves this guy he is going NOWHERE, rightfully so, well all depends but def not for Holliday.

Damon has no arm, lets put him in right. Haha was that a joke.

I hope I am wrong but I just don't see what is going to make Hughes a successful pitcher in the major leagues. Fast ball that is too straight, not overpowering stuff, poor command, at least at the major league level, and seems to be awfully brittle for a young guy. I would trade him in a second for Holliday if that is all it took. The thing is, that won't be all that it would take - and what does that tell you about how highly (or not) Hughes is held in the eyes of other organizations?

About Damon, yeah I know - you can't put him in right. A bit of an error there but at least he wouldn't have that far to have to throw the ball! Guess you would have to leave him in LF and put Holliday in RF.

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 07:28 PM
I hope I am wrong but I just don't see what is going to make Hughes a successful pitcher in the major leagues. Fast ball that is too straight, not overpowering stuff, poor command, at least at the major league level, and seems to be awfully brittle for a young guy. I would trade him in a second for Holliday if that is all it took. The thing is, that won't be all that it would take - and what does that tell you about how highly (or not) Hughes is held in the eyes of other organizations?

About Damon, yeah I know - you can't put him in right. A bit of an error there but at least he wouldn't have that far to have to throw the ball! Guess you would have to leave him in LF and put Holliday in RF.
Ah, so you're a scout who's watched Hughes over his career? Which team are you a scout for? You also appear to be some sort of insider as well, since you apparently already know what Colorado wants for Holliday.

Yankee Steve
07-22-08, 07:46 PM
His numbers in the minors were great. So what? Many guys put up great numbers in the minors. He threw a few good games toward the end of last year but I still felt the FB was too straight, along with many others, some posters on this forum included. I don't think you need to be a scout to judge what your eyes and the numbers tell you. Can you argue that he has NOT gotten hurt more often and for long periods of time, more often than you would expect for a young pitcher. Do YOU honestly think that Colorado would take Hughes straight up for Holliday? Do you NOT think that some other club would easily top that offer?

Cheesyhoboe
07-22-08, 07:58 PM
You don't even know if you've seen him at full strength yet in the majors, for one thing. You've seen him pitch 2 months in the major league after a sprained leg and then watch him pitch for one month with a broken rib. I'm not going to argue against him racking up an impressive assortment of injuries in his career, but it's far too early to say that a 22 year old who has dominated the minor leagues and was said to have frontline ace stuff by PROFESSIONAL scouts, not message board pitching gurus, is never going to be successful in the majors. And he obviously isn't get it done for Holliday by himself, but you actually sound like that somehow is a knock on Hughes when the Rockies think that Adenhart, Kendrick and Saunders is a reasonable offer for Holliday.

themgmt
07-22-08, 09:27 PM
Incorrect. The Yankees haven't "struggled" against LHP, at least not until this season. They have been somewhat less effective against LHP than against RHP, but this was an elite offense before this season, so it's a relative thing.

Yankee OPS+ vs. lefties, 2003-08:
03: 108
04: 120 (they were actually much better against LHP than RHP this season)
05: 114
06: 108
07: 104
08: 99

Where these numbers would have ranked the Yankees in the AL compared to the number put up by the other teams against ALL pitching:

03: 2nd
04: 1st
05: 1st
06: 2nd
07: 3rd
08: 8th

They haven't struggled against lefties at all until this year. They were just extra-potent against righties.


So, what you're saying is.. the most potent offense for the last 3 years, has only been slightly below average to slightly above average versus left handed pitching? I'd call that struggling.

mrbawm
07-22-08, 09:33 PM
What do you all think of DeJesus? Would he cost the same as Holliday because he has such a cheap contract for the next 3 seasons?

HelloNewman
07-22-08, 09:38 PM
So, what you're saying is.. the most potent offense for the last 3 years, has only been slightly below average to slightly above average versus left handed pitching? I'd call that struggling.Uh, no ... those "vs. LH" numbers I posted, except for 2008, are VERY MUCH ABOVE AVERAGE for a TEAM OPS+. I thought I made that clear by showing how high they'd have ranked in the league if those numbers represented their overall OPS+. (The deviation from the mean of 100 is going to vary much more wildly when comparing individual players than it will among teams.)

In other words, while their performance vs. righties has been better than vs. lefties, their performance vs. lefties hasn't been bad, in fact, it's been better than the overall performance of the vast majority of the other AL teams.

So no, they haven't been struggling. Not until this year.

KeithF40
07-22-08, 11:20 PM
I dont understand why does TB need another OF?

Craw and Up are solid, Hinske has good numbers although he doesnt play every day and Gomes has alot of talent, upside they got there at least.

DeJesus is alright but I Dam/Abreu is alot better than him. Rather get a flat footed Bonds to DH than get him. Finding a DH shouldn't really be that hard as the OF is looking fine if everyone stays healthy and Gardner is a nice fourth OF cause of his pinch running abilities and that he takes pitches.

mrbawm
07-22-08, 11:42 PM
I dont understand why does TB need another OF?

Craw and Up are solid, Hinske has good numbers although he doesnt play every day and Gomes has alot of talent, upside they got there at least.

DeJesus is alright but I Dam/Abreu is alot better than him. Rather get a flat footed Bonds to DH than get him. Finding a DH shouldn't really be that hard as the OF is looking fine if everyone stays healthy and Gardner is a nice fourth OF cause of his pinch running abilities and that he takes pitches.

DeJesus would replace Mekly in CF for now. Damon would still play left, Abreu in right. We still would need a serviceable DH and a catcher and a starter.

KeithF40
07-23-08, 01:10 AM
I think there are better offensive options out there than him and I actually like Melky in CF more often than not, although he still aint that good.

Hes having a good season though.

just-blaze
07-23-08, 01:10 AM
I dont understand why does TB need another OF?

Craw and Up are solid, Hinske has good numbers although he doesnt play every day and Gomes has alot of talent, upside they got there at least.

DeJesus is alright but I Dam/Abreu is alot better than him. Rather get a flat footed Bonds to DH than get him. Finding a DH shouldn't really be that hard as the OF is looking fine if everyone stays healthy and Gardner is a nice fourth OF cause of his pinch running abilities and that he takes pitches.

Don't know and don't care, but if they want to give up some good prospects that they have that will make them that much stronger in the future for a guy that won't do much better if any than Hinske has been doing......Im all for it.

They've never been in a playoff hunt and are probably trying to make a splash more than likely. Hope its true.

KeithF40
07-23-08, 03:22 AM
Yeah that makes sense, they have never been buyers and don't understand that being a buyer doesn't mean just randomly signing people for no reason.

There team is pretty much built from prospects, thats how you build a team.

metalboy15
07-23-08, 08:52 AM
Roto:


According to the Denver Post, the Rockies' asking price for Brian Fuentes has scared teams away.
The newspaper reports that the Rockies asked for Clay Buchholz from the Red Sox, Ian Kennedy from the Yankees, Wade Hendrickson from the Rays and Jon Niese from the Mets. While those four pitchers differ quite a bit in value, they're each a plenty steep price for two months of a reliever.
Source: Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/rockies/ci_9964724)

THEBOSS84
07-23-08, 09:01 AM
Roto:

I'm sure Sox fans are bitching at the "Sox Tax" considering they are asking for IPK from us and Buchholz from them.

hockeypuck2008
07-23-08, 09:04 AM
the stupity (or audacity) of the Rockies is mindboggling.

yanksphan
07-23-08, 09:07 AM
the stupity (or audacity) of the Rockies is mindboggling.

So when you try to sell something on say ebay - do you try to sell for as little as possible?

You always ask for the moon. Then negotiate down.

vin777b
07-23-08, 09:31 AM
asking for kennedy, is not crazy.

YESSIR!
07-23-08, 09:34 AM
asking for kennedy, is not crazy.

For a rental? I'm sorry you don't think better of the kid.

Yankees1962
07-23-08, 09:35 AM
For a rental? I'm sorry you don't think better of the kid.
You got that right.

NewEraYanks2527
07-23-08, 09:37 AM
Holiday in Yankee pinstripes...:drool:

28 years old and gets better every year? Of course being away from Colorado would probably affect his numbers but I'd be willing to see just how much. He does hit for average AND power and that is a good thing.

Art Vanderlay
07-23-08, 09:38 AM
I'm sure Sox fans are bitching at the "Sox Tax" considering they are asking for IPK from us and Buchholz from them.

This so called "Yankees tax" is a myth. For example the Twins turned down an offer of Lester, Mastherson, and Lowrie for Santana. They wanted either Bucholz or Ellsbury added in the deal. Yankee fans don't want to hear this but the reality is the offer the Twins rejected from Boston was better than what they were willing to take from the Yankees (Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez).

NelsonMuntz
07-23-08, 09:39 AM
Crap....I started a thread on the Washburn thing....sorry.
There's no need to apologize. That's what message boards are for :)

Cheesyhoboe
07-23-08, 09:41 AM
This so called "Yankees tax" is a myth. For example the Twins turned down an offer of Lester, Mastherson, and Lowrie for Santana. They wanted either Bucholz or Ellsbury added in the deal. Yankee fans don't want to hear this but the reality is the offer the Twins rejected from Boston was better than what they were willing to take from the Yankees (Hughes, Cabrera, Marquez).

It was better in hindsight. Back then, when Lester was nothing more than a #3 or #4 and Masterson and Lowrie were unproven it was not considered a better deal.