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Smartin681
06-24-08, 07:03 AM
After watching Sheets pitch last night, I thought to myself "wow id love to see this guy in pinstripes". He has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, but what would the odds be of Cashman and co. to try to sign Sheets in the offseason or at the deadline if Milwaukee is out of the hunt?

He'd be a nice alternative to Sabathia or Burnett. He strikes out alot of guys and doesnt give away free bases. If he could stay healthy, he could help anchor the rotation with Wang and Joba

2009 Rotation

Wang
Joba
Sheets
Moose/Pettitte
Hughes/Kennedy
:drool:


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6618/career;_ylt=AlzZ7Tw0e.cL.Cs7vaxu17eFCLcF

Blokee
06-24-08, 07:05 AM
An injury plagued NL pitcher.

Haven't I heard that somewhere before and suddenly alarm bells are going off all over my mind...

NYDCYankee
06-24-08, 07:24 AM
An injury plagued NL pitcher.

Haven't I heard that somewhere before and suddenly alarm bells are going off all over my mind...

Come on, everyone always says stuff like this, but with certain pitchers (Beckett, Schilling) there is a difference because they have a ton of ability to make the NL-AL switch.

Sheets has absolutely dominant stuff. I would love for the Yankees to go after him at the end of the year. There are few better pitchers than Sheets.

Tehasguard
06-24-08, 07:42 AM
Sheets and/or Oswalt is what I want to see in 09

Both have excellent stuff, Oswalt is under contract till 2010 I think

With the year he is having, Sheets will get a lot of money though.

NYDCYankee
06-24-08, 08:30 AM
Sheets and/or Oswalt is what I want to see in 09

Both have excellent stuff, Oswalt is under contract till 2010 I think

With the year he is having, Sheets will get a lot of money though.

Oswalt is a shell of his former self.

Blokee
06-24-08, 08:46 AM
Come on, everyone always says stuff like this, but with certain pitchers (Beckett, Schilling) there is a difference because they have a ton of ability to make the NL-AL switch.

Sheets has absolutely dominant stuff. I would love for the Yankees to go after him at the end of the year. There are few better pitchers than Sheets.

As a Ben Sheets owner in fantasy - I know how his DL time kills. He has pure raw stuff but can't stay healthy, is it something like seven DL stints in the past four seasons?

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-24-08, 10:03 AM
I'd definitely see what he wants in the offseason. Also, Ben Sheets has dominant stuff along with amazing control, he is the exact kind of pitcher whose stuff would translate well.

teknetic
06-24-08, 10:14 AM
He's allowed 21 walks all year; 7 of those came in one game. Pavano couldn't hold Sheets' jock, shying away from talent like him because of duds like Pavano is kinda senseless.

THEBOSS84
06-24-08, 10:33 AM
I'm starting to prefer a Sheets 4-5 year deal over an CC 6-7 year deal.

Martini6196
06-24-08, 11:08 AM
Is Sheets a free agent after this season?

THEBOSS84
06-24-08, 11:09 AM
Is Sheets a free agent after this season?

Yes sir

Martini6196
06-24-08, 11:12 AM
I'm all for signing him to a contract in the offseason. I wonder if he'll make it to free agency though. There will be alot of teams out there looking to trade for him if the Brewers put him on the market.

ICEBERG18
06-24-08, 11:17 AM
I like him a lot as long as he's on the mound.

THEBOSS84
06-24-08, 11:25 AM
I'm all for signing him to a contract in the offseason. I wonder if he'll make it to free agency though. There will be alot of teams out there looking to trade for him if the Brewers put him on the market.

The Brewers are playign extremely well right now. They are more likely to be buyers at the deadline.

Cheesyhoboe
06-24-08, 12:13 PM
I don't care if Sheets has a sub-2 ERA this year, I'm tired of wasting money on injury prone pitchers.

fellows
06-24-08, 12:28 PM
Good chance he becomes Pavano II. He's the anti-Sabathia durability wise.

27IsNext
06-24-08, 12:44 PM
Good chance he becomes Pavano II. He's the anti-Sabathia durability wise.

No, because he actually wants to pitch, and has much better abilities than Pavano.

Yankee Tripper
06-24-08, 12:54 PM
I'd love to get him on a 3 year deal with a team option for a 4th.

yankeetomer54
06-24-08, 12:56 PM
If we get sheets it would be great. The problem is that there is no where to put him and he gets hurt a lot.

THEBOSS84
06-24-08, 12:56 PM
I'd love to get him on a 3 year deal with a team option for a 4th.

Yeah but with the way he's pitching this year and based on the type of contract that Silva got, I doubt that'll be possible.

Hobie
06-24-08, 01:35 PM
If we get sheets it would be great. The problem is that there is no where to put him and he gets hurt a lot.

...could always put him at the front of the rotation.

Yankee Tripper
06-24-08, 01:37 PM
If we get sheets it would be great. The problem is that there is no where to put him and he gets hurt a lot.

Are you nuts? there is always room for a potential ace with a career 115 ERA+ - I will grant the injury prone part and that is why I'd hope for a 3 year deal with option for 4th


Yeah but with the way he's pitching this year and based on the type of contract that Silva got, I doubt that'll be possible.

probabaly right - but Silva has no injury concerns that I can recall - how about 3 years with a with a team option that vests into a guarantee for the 4th based on total starts or IP in year 2 & 3 of the contract? So 3 years for sure and a 4th if he shows he's healthy with a higher average yearly dollar value than the Silva signing. Think that might work?

Hellsing
06-24-08, 01:51 PM
I am a huge fan of Sabathia and would love to have a power LHP like him on the Yankees. HOWEVER, if Sheets can be had for less money and less years, then it would be a coup' for the Yankees.

If the Yankees sign Sheets...

- Sheets
- Joba
- Wang
- Pettitte (If signed) / Hughes
- Rasner/IPK

If they sign Sabathia...

- CC
- Joba
- Wang
- Rasner (Innings eater...cost controlled...4.25 ERA...)
- Hughes (Potential superstar...less pressure)

Signing both basically forces the Yankees hand to deal one of their young pitchers.

Yankee Tripper
06-24-08, 01:55 PM
Signing both basically forces the Yankees hand to deal one of their young pitchers.

Why?

How about

CC
Big Ben
CMW
Joba
Hughes

for a rotation? Expensive for sure but man would that take some pressure off Phil and should he struggle or Big Ben come up with one of his annual injuries you've got cost controlled Kennedy or Horne to plug in to the rotation.

And what's wrong with trading one or more of the young pitchers for a young bat, say Prince Fielder or Matt Holliday in the off season as names that have been mentioned. Or Ryan Howard for that matter if Philly gets tired of his arb demands?

Hellsing
06-24-08, 01:59 PM
Why?

How about

CC
Big Ben
CMW
Joba
Hughes

for a rotation? Expensive for sure but man would that take some pressure off Phil and should he struggle or Big Ben come up with one of his annual injuries you've got cost controlled Kennedy or Horne to plug in to the rotation.

And what's wrong with trading one or more of the young pitchers for a young bat, say Prince Fielder or Matt Holliday in the off season as names that have been mentioned. Or Ryan Howard for that matter if Philly gets tired of his arb demands?

Nothing wrong with trading a young player, just stating that it has to be done. IPK and Horne have very little value being replacement guys. You can let Rasner, Igawa, or Giese be that guy and have the same performance.
You would trade IPK and Horne for....IDK...SOMETHING.

With that rotation, even if Hughes struggles, they should win 100 games. As you said...it costs a ton, and I would like to see the payroll come down a bit. *shrug*

primetime714
06-24-08, 02:22 PM
Don't fall into the trap everyone. Ben Sheets in an average year will give you about 150-160 IP with his injury history. And in the past 3 years (excluding this one) he's averaging about 130, maxing out at 156.

I would've taken a chance on a short term deal with him, but with the year he is having he'll be grossly overpaid on a relatively long term deal (4-5 years).

Signing Sabathia to an extra year would be a sounder investment IMO.

I think Sheets is a fantastic pitcher that could dominate either league, but it would be a mistake to sign him since you can't rely on him to stay healthy and he's going to get top dollar in FA. As he is having a career year.

As much as I like Sheets' stuff, you have to be wary of the guy who has a career year in his contract year. While not quite as good as Sheets: Pavano, Wright, Brown, and RJ were all coming off great years when we acquired them and paid for it.

primetime714
06-24-08, 02:24 PM
Nothing wrong with trading a young player, just stating that it has to be done. IPK and Horne have very little value being replacement guys. You can let Rasner, Igawa, or Giese be that guy and have the same performance.
You would trade IPK and Horne for....IDK...SOMETHING.

With that rotation, even if Hughes struggles, they should win 100 games. As you said...it costs a ton, and I would like to see the payroll come down a bit. *shrug*

Horne projects well as a reliever, so we certainly wouldn't have to trade him. If IPK is going to get pushed out of rotation consideration though we should probably look into trading him.

Although I'm against getting Sheets.

teknetic
06-24-08, 02:37 PM
Don't fall into the trap everyone. Ben Sheets in an average year will give you about 150-160 IP with his injury history. And in the past 3 years (excluding this one) he's averaging about 130, maxing out at 156.

I would've taken a chance on a short term deal with him, but with the year he is having he'll be grossly overpaid on a relatively long term deal (4-5 years).

Signing Sabathia to an extra year would be a sounder investment IMO.

I think Sheets is a fantastic pitcher that could dominate either league, but it would be a mistake to sign him since you can't rely on him to stay healthy and he's going to get top dollar in FA. As he is having a career year.

As much as I like Sheets' stuff, you have to be wary of the guy who has a career year in his contract year. While not quite as good as Sheets: Pavano, Wright, Brown, and RJ were all coming off great years when we acquired them and paid for it.

Sheets' career year was in '04; 237IP 264K/32BB 162ERA+

Josh Beckett had 607IP from '01-'05. Ben Sheets had 980IP during the same stretch. Sure Sheets' recent injuries have piled up recently, but if Beckett managed to get healthy why can't Sheets? Pavano syndrome has a ton of people on these boards gunshy of seeing this team chase after quality talent.

Smartin681
06-24-08, 03:26 PM
Sheets' career year was in '04; 237IP 264K/32BB 162ERA+

Josh Beckett had 607IP from '01-'05. Ben Sheets had 980IP during the same stretch. Sure Sheets' recent injuries have piled up recently, but if Beckett managed to get healthy why can't Sheets? Pavano syndrome has a ton of people on these boards gunshy of seeing this team chase after quality talent.

This is a great point and is why I started this thread. He could have just been running into some back luck with his injuries. A healthy Ben Sheets can dominate both leagues and could be a rock at the front end of this rotation.

Sheets
Wang
Joba
Hughes

that could be a tough rotation to beat come playoff time ( 2009 and beyond that is)

With the year that he is having, he could demand 14-16 per year.. no way he signs for 3-4 years.. its his time to cash in, hes going to want the big bucks. sign me up for 5-6 years of Ben Sheets in pinstripes.

THEBOSS84
06-24-08, 03:28 PM
I just hate the fact that Sheets is performing like this in his walk year.

Allan
06-24-08, 05:45 PM
If we get sheets it would be great. The problem is that there is no where to put him and he gets hurt a lot.
Nowhere to put him? How about at the top of the rotation.

Yankees13
06-24-08, 05:55 PM
Sheets is so good that if we signed him to a 4 year deal and he was a non-factor for 2 years, he'd still be worth it for when he was healthy, and for leading the rotation in the playoffs. Sign both Sheets and C.C.
Sheets
Sabathia
Joba
Wang
whoever (Hughes/TBD)
The thought of that is tantalizing. The Yankees need to take some risks if they want to achieve dominance once again. If we could survive Pavano's contract, we can survive Sheets if it's a failure. Just look at what the Red Sox did with Beckett, we need to take risks.

YanksFan1992
06-24-08, 05:57 PM
Sheets is so good that if we signed him to a 4 year deal and he was a non-factor for 2 years, he'd still be worth it for when he was healthy, and for leading the rotation in the playoffs. Sign both Sheets and C.C.
Sheets
Sabathia
Joba
Wang
whoever (Hughes/TBD)
The thought of that is tantalizing. The Yankees need to take some risks if they want to achieve dominance once again. If we could survive Pavano's contract, we can survive Sheets if it's a failure. Just look at what the Red Sox did with Beckett, we need to take risks.

:drool:

I think we'd win 120 games. :lol:

bmxstreetrider86
06-24-08, 06:38 PM
Sheets is so good that if we signed him to a 4 year deal and he was a non-factor for 2 years, he'd still be worth it for when he was healthy, and for leading the rotation in the playoffs. Sign both Sheets and C.C.
Sheets
Sabathia
Joba
Wang
whoever (Hughes/TBD)
The thought of that is tantalizing. The Yankees need to take some risks if they want to achieve dominance once again. If we could survive Pavano's contract, we can survive Sheets if it's a failure. Just look at what the Red Sox did with Beckett, we need to take risks.

i highly doubt that

Yankees13
06-24-08, 06:55 PM
i highly doubt that
As a comparison, at the end of 2007, was acquiring Josh Beckett worth it for the Red Sox? One year as a non-factor, one great year. Power pitching is the way to win.

bmxstreetrider86
06-24-08, 06:58 PM
As a comparison, at the end of 2007, was acquiring Josh Beckett worth it for the Red Sox? One year as a non-factor, one great year. Power pitching is the way to win.


besides the fact that thats not the same situation and ive been very vocal as to the fact i think the redsox lost that trade.

but anyway, you have to factor in how much he would make and the fact that he is far more injury prone than beckett was, so if he didnt pitch well for 2 years, and missed time, and still made, say 15 mil a year, he probably wouldnt be worth it

ThePinStripes
06-24-08, 07:02 PM
CC + Sheets ftw.

No CC, no Sheets.

CC
Sheets
Wang
Joba
[who cares who the #5 is at this point, we have the AL all star pitching rotation :lol: )

Yankees13
06-24-08, 07:13 PM
besides the fact that thats not the same situation and ive been very vocal as to the fact i think the redsox lost that trade.

but anyway, you have to factor in how much he would make and the fact that he is far more injury prone than beckett was, so if he didnt pitch well for 2 years, and missed time, and still made, say 15 mil a year, he probably wouldnt be worth it
I'll lose trades if they win me championships.

My point is that it's a gamble well worth taking, because even if doesn't work out completely as hoped, it could still have some great results.

bmxstreetrider86
06-24-08, 07:23 PM
I'll lose trades if they win me championships.

My point is that it's a gamble well worth taking, because even if doesn't work out completely as hoped, it could still have some great results.

im not getting into this argument alone, but getting beckett alone did not win them a WS last year



i never said it wouldnt be worth the gamble, at a certain price it would be, i just disagreed with your notion that his 2 good years would outweigh his 2 bad years

marshcat
06-24-08, 07:28 PM
Sheets is freakin awesome.


SIGN HIM!

Yankees13
06-24-08, 07:29 PM
im not getting into this argument alone, but getting beckett alone did not win them a WS last year



i never said it wouldnt be worth the gamble, at a certain price it would be, i just disagreed with your notion that his 2 good years would outweigh his 2 bad years
It was certainly the biggest factor.

It depends, if we won the WS one of those years, I think it would be worth it.

YanksFan1992
06-24-08, 11:41 PM
Good news; apparently Sheets is headed for free agency after the year.

http://blogs.jsonline.com/brewers/archive/2008/06/24/sheets-has-eye-on-free-agency.aspx

False1
06-25-08, 01:25 AM
Ben is The Sheets. It's a risk/reward equation that makes sense. I understand the injuries, the NL to AL risk factor, but unless the injury bug goes nuts this year, I'd go after this guy hard for a higher $$/shorter term deal. Like 4/$64MM style. Even with his injuries he's averaging 25 GS per year in his career. I agree with Yankees13 to a degree here... If he gives two years of 160 ERA+ over 35 starts (as he did in '04 and is on pace to do this year) and 15-20 starts of ~115 ERA+ due to ailments in the other two years, where do we sign? Heck, if he gives us 1 year of 160 ERA+ and 3 years of ~115 ERA+ it certainly wouldn't be a catastrophic signing. And if he can stay healthy for four years?

Lightning doesn't strike twice, so I wouldn't envision another Pavano situation. And as much as we despise the Pavano debacle, did that really set the Yankees back? Frustrating - yes, set back - not so much. And Sheets' ceiling is obviously MUCH higher than Pavano.

Lots of time until he hits FA to monitor, but if the season were over right now Sheets would be the guy I'd hope the FO would target.

JeterRodriguezSheff
06-25-08, 02:00 AM
besides the fact that thats not the same situation and ive been very vocal as to the fact i think the redsox lost that trade.

but anyway, you have to factor in how much he would make and the fact that he is far more injury prone than beckett was, so if he didnt pitch well for 2 years, and missed time, and still made, say 15 mil a year, he probably wouldnt be worth it

I dont understand how the Red Sox lost that trade. Without Beckett the Sox do not win in 07, and they arent in first this year. To be honest they are the favorites to win the WS this year. Take Beckett away and that isnt true.

Zimmer's Helmet
06-25-08, 02:08 AM
Don't fall into the trap everyone. Ben Sheets in an average year will give you about 150-160 IP with his injury history. And in the past 3 years (excluding this one) he's averaging about 130, maxing out at 156.

I would've taken a chance on a short term deal with him, but with the year he is having he'll be grossly overpaid on a relatively long term deal (4-5 years).

Signing Sabathia to an extra year would be a sounder investment IMO.

I think Sheets is a fantastic pitcher that could dominate either league, but it would be a mistake to sign him since you can't rely on him to stay healthy and he's going to get top dollar in FA. As he is having a career year.

As much as I like Sheets' stuff, you have to be wary of the guy who has a career year in his contract year. While not quite as good as Sheets: Pavano, Wright, Brown, and RJ were all coming off great years when we acquired them and paid for it.

I couldn't agree more.

Signing Sabathia over Sheets should be a no brainer on so many different levels. Durability, tried and tested facing AL hitters, etc.

Slioman
06-25-08, 02:30 AM
I've always been a fan of Sheets. I'd love to see the Yankees make a move for this guy. Injury-prone, yes, but his stuff is undeniably good.

Zimmer's Helmet
06-25-08, 02:47 AM
I've always been a fan of Sheets. I'd love to see the Yankees make a move for this guy. Injury-prone, yes, but his stuff is undeniably good.

The guy hasn't pitched more than 156 innings in a season since 2004. We also have no idea how he will adjust to pitching in the AL East.

Factor in the fact that he's going to want at least $15-16 million a year. No thanks.

We're much better off signing Sabathia who is much more durable, has proven success pitching in the AL and also happens to be 3 years younger.

27IsNext
06-25-08, 02:49 AM
I couldn't agree more.

Signing Sabathia over Sheets should be a no brainer on so many different levels. Durability, tried and tested facing AL hitters, etc.

What if I want us to sign both?

Sabathia
Sheets
Wang
Chamberlain
(whoever)

After watching the Hughes and Kennedy debacle this year, I want no part of putting the season of a $200 million team in the hands of rookie starting pitchers. Horde up the aces, because they don't reach the market too often.

Slioman
06-25-08, 02:56 AM
The guy hasn't pitched more than 156 innings in a season since 2004. We also have no idea how he will adjust to pitching in the AL East.

Factor in the fact that he's going to want at least $15-16 million a year. No thanks.

We're much better off signing Sabathia who is much more durable, has proven success pitching in the AL and also happens to be 3 years younger.

Well, I suppose you could look at it like the deal that was given to A.J. Burnett, in a sense.

Injury-prone, but a strong pitcher. A steal if you can get him to throw 200 innings.

As for Sabathia, I'll wait to see how much he's demanding.

False1
06-25-08, 03:11 AM
I meant to ask in my last post... CC will undoubtedly be a type A FA. Is Sheets going to be a type A?

rodney27nyg
06-25-08, 06:45 AM
After watching Sheets pitch last night, I thought to myself "wow id love to see this guy in pinstripes". He has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, but what would the odds be of Cashman and co. to try to sign Sheets in the offseason or at the deadline if Milwaukee is out of the hunt?

He'd be a nice alternative to Sabathia or Burnett. He strikes out alot of guys and doesnt give away free bases. If he could stay healthy, he could help anchor the rotation with Wang and Joba

2009 Rotation

Wang
Joba
Sheets
Moose/Pettitte
Hughes/Kennedy
:drool:


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6618/career;_ylt=AlzZ7Tw0e.cL.Cs7vaxu17eFCLcF


Why not just sign Sheets, Sabathia AND Burnett?:eek:

Can you ever really have enough starting pitching depth?:D

yankeebot
06-25-08, 07:36 AM
I meant to ask in my last post... CC will undoubtedly be a type A FA. Is Sheets going to be a type A? I'm sure he will be. I love him but he's turning 30 in July. I don't care about the money but I can't see giving him the number of years he's going to want at that age combined with his injury history.

goin for 27
06-25-08, 08:40 AM
besides the fact that thats not the same situation and ive been very vocal as to the fact i think the redsox lost that trade.


I believe that any trade that yields a title is worth it.

2007 Beckett - 200IP, 20-7, 3.27 ERA,
2007 Beckett Postseason - 30IP, 4-0, 1.20ERA, 35K's, 2BB's, .70WHIP

2007 Lowell - .324BA, 120 OPS+, 37 doubles, 21HR, 120 RBI.
2007 Lowell Postseason - 14 games, .353BA, 7 doubles, 2HR, 15RBI, World Series MVP. (With Beckett likely the real MVP)

How many trades are done to put a team over the top? How many actually put the team over the top?

Hanley Ramirez was the Red Sox #1 prospect. Who is ours? Hughes I guess?

Would I trade Hughes today if I would get #27 this year? All day long....

I think too many fans (not saying you) think that these rings are very easy to come by. I have been a fan a very long time, regardless of the resources that the Yanks have, it's not easy. The Red Sox/Marlins trade was a slam dunk for the Red Sox already, any other rings would be gravy.

primetime714
06-25-08, 11:20 AM
Sheets' career year was in '04; 237IP 264K/32BB 162ERA+

Josh Beckett had 607IP from '01-'05. Ben Sheets had 980IP during the same stretch. Sure Sheets' recent injuries have piled up recently, but if Beckett managed to get healthy why can't Sheets? Pavano syndrome has a ton of people on these boards gunshy of seeing this team chase after quality talent.

He's on pace to match 2004. A year that he followed with 3 years of injury problems and several DL trips. And at least a few of those injuries were quite bit more serious than the blister problems Beckett experienced including shoulder and back injuries. Albeit a few of his injuries do not raise that many concerns (broken finger and viral infection) but this is still a different situation than Beckett.

Also its convenient that you look at what Sheets and Beckett did in 01'-05' as Sheets' injury problems haven't come up until the past few years. Its not to say that Sheets can't overcome his problems, its just that there certainly is reason for concern and given the year he is having he is going to get ALOT of money so I'm more inclined to pass on him as I think he'll likely fall short of expectations as his history indicates that he is likely to spend some time on the DL.

If we can't get Sabathia for some reason I'd be more interested in Sheets, but I'd definitely focus our efforts on CC who IMO is less of a risk.

dont_ya_know24
06-25-08, 11:57 AM
He's on pace to match 2004. A year that he followed with 3 years of injury problems and several DL trips. And at least a few of those injuries were quite bit more serious than the blister problems Beckett experienced including shoulder and back injuries. Albeit a few of his injuries do not raise that many concerns (broken finger and viral infection) but this is still a different situation than Beckett.

Also its convenient that you look at what Sheets and Beckett did in 01'-05' as Sheets' injury problems haven't come up until the past few years. Its not to say that Sheets can't overcome his problems, its just that there certainly is reason for concern and given the year he is having he is going to get ALOT of money so I'm more inclined to pass on him as I think he'll likely fall short of expectations as his history indicates that he is likely to spend some time on the DL.

If we can't get Sabathia for some reason I'd be more interested in Sheets, but I'd definitely focus our efforts on CC who IMO is less of a risk.

no he's not.

Zimmer's Helmet
06-25-08, 12:44 PM
What if I want us to sign both?

Sabathia
Sheets
Wang
Chamberlain
(whoever)

After watching the Hughes and Kennedy debacle this year, I want no part of putting the season of a $200 million team in the hands of rookie starting pitchers. Horde up the aces, because they don't reach the market too often.

I would have to believe that Pettitte would most likely be the 5th member of your hypothetical rotation; especially if he finishes the season strong.

It's very unlikely that the Yankees would go out and sign both Sabathia and Sheets; not to mention that it means that the Yankees will definitely not be signing Texeira.

So you're really willing to throw in the towel on Kennedy and Hughes already? The jury is still out on Kennedy but I have no doubt that Hughes will eventually be a stud in the rotation. We need to demonstrate a little more patience with our young pitchers.

27IsNext
06-25-08, 12:48 PM
I would have to believe that Pettitte would most likely be the 5th member of your hypothetical rotation; especially if he finishes the season strong.

It's very unlikely that the Yankees would go out and sign both Sabathia and Sheets; not to mention that it means that the Yankees will definitely not be signing Texeira.

So you're really willing to throw in the towel on Kennedy and Hughes already? The jury is still out on Kennedy but I have no doubt that Hughes will eventually be a stud in the rotation. We need to demonstrate a little more patience with our young pitchers.

Instead of letting them simply be fourth and fifth starters like Boston did with Buchholz and Lester, we put Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation and said, "Perform well enough so we don't miss the playoffs." Consequently, we basically put our season in their hands. We saw how that worked out.

I still think Hughes and Kennedy can be good pitchers, but they clearly weren't ready. Hughes in particular needs to spend a good chunk of next year in AAA getting his mechanics down and throwing his changeup and slider more.

Yankees47
06-25-08, 01:03 PM
After watching Sheets pitch last night, I thought to myself "wow id love to see this guy in pinstripes". He has been plagued by injuries throughout his career, but what would the odds be of Cashman and co. to try to sign Sheets in the offseason or at the deadline if Milwaukee is out of the hunt?

He'd be a nice alternative to Sabathia or Burnett. He strikes out alot of guys and doesnt give away free bases. If he could stay healthy, he could help anchor the rotation with Wang and Joba

2009 Rotation

Wang
Joba
Sheets
Moose/Pettitte
Hughes/Kennedy
:drool:


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6618/career;_ylt=AlzZ7Tw0e.cL.Cs7vaxu17eFCLcF



The Yankees have enough players that are injury prone...Sheets is always hurt

27IsNext
06-25-08, 01:21 PM
The Yankees have enough players that are injury prone...Sheets is always hurt

And enough depth in the minors to where taking the risk would be worth it considering how good Sheets is when healthy.

primetime714
06-25-08, 01:44 PM
no he's not.

nice argument.

2004: ERA+ 162
2008: ERA+ 166

His strikeout rate is down from 2004, but he is 9-1 in 2008 vs. 12-14 in 2004. His team may have more to do with the win-loss, but you can argue that this year so far is at least very close to what he did in 04'.

My main point on the "career year" thing is that he is having a great year one of the best of his career which are following his 3 worst, but because people in baseball look heavily at what a player has done recently Sheets is bound to get a HUGE contract despite still have a relatively high degree of risk.

R.V.47
06-25-08, 01:45 PM
And enough depth in the minors to where taking the risk would be worth it considering how good Sheets is when healthy.

The reason we would get him though is to replace Wangs production. If Sheets gets hurt we are right back to where we are now trying to piece together a rotation with journeyman rejects and young guys not ready for the bigs yet. Its a big risk but his stuff is so good it might be worth it.

Yankees47
06-25-08, 01:49 PM
And enough depth in the minors to where taking the risk would be worth it considering how good Sheets is when healthy.

No its not worth the risk, Sheets pitches in the NL and in Milwaukee which is not the same as pitching in a pressure market like NY, and its not taking a risk its getting a pitcher that is ALWAYS hurt. He has been on the DL atleast once every single year of his career, no thank you. And by the way if you want him your going to have to give up Hughes, A-Jax and another prospect

False1
06-25-08, 03:51 PM
No its not worth the risk, Sheets pitches in the NL and in Milwaukee which is not the same as pitching in a pressure market like NY, and its not taking a risk its getting a pitcher that is ALWAYS hurt. He has been on the DL atleast once every single year of his career, no thank you. And by the way if you want him your going to have to give up Hughes, A-Jax and another prospectIf he gets to FA and is a type B, if he gets hurt we're no better/worse off in terms of on the field product. If he doesn't get hurt, even if you allow for some NL to AL slippage if you believe in that sort of thing then the Yankees have picked up a potential ace for NOTHING in terms of prospects. Now, if Sheets starts talking 6 or 7 years... meh.

27IsNext
06-25-08, 04:56 PM
No its not worth the risk, Sheets pitches in the NL and in Milwaukee which is not the same as pitching in a pressure market like NY, and its not taking a risk its getting a pitcher that is ALWAYS hurt. He has been on the DL atleast once every single year of his career, no thank you. And by the way if you want him your going to have to give up Hughes, A-Jax and another prospect

I'm talking about signing him as a free agent.

Sheet's stuff consists of three good pitches (fastball, curve, change) and great command. That shouldn't have a problem translating to the AL.

primetime714
06-25-08, 05:05 PM
If he gets to FA and is a type B, if he gets hurt we're no better/worse off in terms of on the field product. If he doesn't get hurt, even if you allow for some NL to AL slippage if you believe in that sort of thing then the Yankees have picked up a potential ace for NOTHING in terms of prospects. Now, if Sheets starts talking 6 or 7 years... meh.

Sheets won't be a type B FA. He'll easily be type A even with the time he missed last year.

And anything more than 4 years for him is beyond foolish.

False1
06-25-08, 06:56 PM
Sheets won't be a type B FA. He'll easily be type A even with the time he missed last year.

And anything more than 4 years for him is beyond foolish.Type A changes things somewhat, but I think you'd still have to consider it. And I agree, 4 years given his track record is as far as I'd go. If someone wants to gamble beyond that, fine.

As an aside, is there a tool/site that helps understand the FA type assignments, how they are calculated and what they project for '09 FA's?

teknetic
06-25-08, 07:57 PM
Also its convenient that you look at what Sheets and Beckett did in 01'-05' as Sheets' injury problems haven't come up until the past few years. Its not to say that Sheets can't overcome his problems, its just that there certainly is reason for concern and given the year he is having he is going to get ALOT of money so I'm more inclined to pass on him as I think he'll likely fall short of expectations as his history indicates that he is likely to spend some time on the DL.

Pretty sure I said "Sure Sheets' recent injuries have piled up recently." I'm not saying sign the dude on whatever terms he's asking for, but if he's available for the right price I don't see why we'd shy away. If we get CC, none of this matters though.

just-blaze
06-26-08, 02:13 AM
I'm talking about signing him as a free agent.

Sheet's stuff consists of three good pitches (fastball, curve, change) and great command. That shouldn't have a problem translating to the AL.

Sheets'

Ive always maintained that Hughes' future comp could be Ben Sheets.

27IsNext
06-26-08, 02:20 AM
Sheets'

Ive always maintained that Hughes' future comp could be Ben Sheets.

Fastball/curveball/changeup with great command? Yeah, I could definitely see the comparison.

If Hughes ends up like Sheets (minus the injuries obviously), I think we'd all be thrilled.

flymick24
06-26-08, 03:44 AM
an injury prone pitcher who hasn't logged a full season in a while but seems to finally be healthy in his walk year?

where have i heard that one before?

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 09:18 AM
At least Ben Sheets is actually a good pitcher when healthy.

27IsNext
06-26-08, 12:34 PM
At least Ben Sheets is actually a good pitcher when healthy.

Exactly. If there's a wait, the bright side is that you're getting Ben Sheets (career 115 ERA+), as opposed to Carl Pavano (career 100 ERA+), when the player returns.

R.V.47
06-26-08, 01:37 PM
Fastball/curveball/changeup with great command? Yeah, I could definitely see the comparison.

If Hughes ends up like Sheets (minus the injuries obviously), I think we'd all be thrilled.

Unless something changes Hughes doesnt seem to have anywhere close to the fastball velocity of Sheets. I think the curveball is similar though. Hughes may grow into that kind of pitcher though, I just hope he stays healthy.

27IsNext
06-26-08, 03:01 PM
Unless something changes Hughes doesnt seem to have anywhere close to the fastball velocity of Sheets. I think the curveball is similar though. Hughes may grow into that kind of pitcher though, I just hope he stays healthy.

Sheets sits 90 to 94, and can dial it up as high as 96. Hughes sits 90 to 93 and can dial it up to 95.

Both are known to have great command when right, and both are fastball/curve/change pitchers with the curve being the primary out pitch.

THEBOSS84
06-26-08, 03:03 PM
I thought Sheets could hit 98

27IsNext
06-26-08, 03:08 PM
I thought Sheets could hit 98

Can he? I was sure he topped out at 96?

teknetic
06-26-08, 03:14 PM
He was 91-94 with a few 95-96's last start (complete game)

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806232992116

That's pretty tempting.

THEBOSS84
06-26-08, 03:15 PM
How can we find out what Sheets tops out at?

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 03:25 PM
His average is 93.27 this year.

http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/2008_tool.php?pit=282656&bat=0&type=0&result=-1&count=-1&r_spd=1&spd=-1&r_brx=1&brx=-100&r_brz=1&brz=-100&l_b=0

THEBOSS84
06-26-08, 03:28 PM
His average is 93.27 this year.

http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/2008_tool.php?pit=282656&bat=0&type=0&result=-1&count=-1&r_spd=1&spd=-1&r_brx=1&brx=-100&r_brz=1&brz=-100&l_b=0

It says that Joba's average fb speed is 97.19. Not sure if I know how to use this though.

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 03:28 PM
How can we find out what Sheets tops out at?

He's had 4 pitches this year over 96.

http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/2008_tool.php?pit=282656&bat=0&type=-1&result=-1&count=-1&r_spd=1&spd=96&r_brx=1&brx=-100&r_brz=1&brz=-100&l_b=0

None over 97

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 03:29 PM
It says that Joba's average fb speed is 97.19. Not sure if I know how to use this though.

I'm not sure how up to date this is, but yeah 97.19 has been the average.

THEBOSS84
06-26-08, 03:31 PM
I'm not sure how up to date this is, but yeah 97.19 has been the average.

It has to be from before the KC start since it says he has only given up 1 homer.

Hellsing
06-26-08, 03:36 PM
With my own eyes, I would guess Chamberlain's avg. FB velocity is not 97.

Fangraphs has him at 95.4 for this season and 97.0 out of the pen in 2007. (97..average...YIKES!)

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2692&position=P


95.4 mph average for a starting pitcher is....ungodly fast. I watched his number actually GO UP since he began the transition to starter.

Sheets' avg. FB is 92.6 MPH. Not too shabby.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=710&position=P

Hughes is 91.7 MPH and was getting better when I was watching it. Should be around 92-93 when he is at 100%.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7450&position=P

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 03:46 PM
Yeah, I believe Kalk's tool isn't updated so 97.19 was probably before he had the majority of his starts.

False1
06-26-08, 03:52 PM
Can Kalk's tool determine the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

THEBOSS84
06-26-08, 03:53 PM
Can Kalk's tool determine the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Does this mean what I think it means?

Hellsing
06-26-08, 03:54 PM
Can Kalk's tool determine the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

Yes.

Kalk's tool estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Kalkian numbers based on that study all lead to an estimation that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.

False1
06-26-08, 04:58 PM
Yes.

Kalk's tool estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Kalkian numbers based on that study all lead to an estimation that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.Impressive. What is your favorite color?

Ivoted4Kodos
06-26-08, 05:50 PM
Can Kalk's tool determine the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or European?

CommerceComet
06-26-08, 05:56 PM
African or European?One has to know these kinds of things when you're the king.

NYDCYankee
06-26-08, 07:38 PM
Can I talk about how awesome Rich Harden is in this thread?

YASS
06-26-08, 07:41 PM
Can I talk about how awesome Rich Harden is in this thread?
Please do.

Rich Harden is UberPitcher.

NYDCYankee
06-26-08, 07:51 PM
Please do.

Rich Harden is UberPitcher.

Good. Rich Harden is flat out awesome.

Stat line today against the Phillies (not a light hitting team): 8 innings, 11k's 2 hits 0 runs.

They guy is a monster. And I would definitely support the Yankees going after him.

YASS
06-26-08, 08:07 PM
Good. Rich Harden is flat out awesome.

Stat line today against the Phillies (not a light hitting team): 8 innings, 11k's 2 hits 0 runs.

They guy is a monster. And I would definitely support the Yankees going after him.
It's probably too late for that. He likely could have been had for a reasonable price over the winter, but now that he's demonstrating to everyone that he's one of the best pitchers on the planet, he's been able to stay mostly healthy, and the A's are still in contention, I think he's just not for sale.

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 08:35 PM
I think Beane would accept a good package for Harden, he knows when to sell high, his innings totals have been pathetic.

indianyanksfan
06-26-08, 10:24 PM
beane would ask for the moon for harden...pass

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 10:26 PM
beane would ask for the moon for harden...pass

I'm sure he is but no team is going to give up their top prospects for a guy who has been as injured as Harden. I really think Beane is going to sell high on the guy soon if he can get a good package of prospects.

YASS
06-26-08, 10:28 PM
I'm sure he is but no team is going to give up their top prospects for a guy who has been as injured as Harden. I really think Beane is going to sell high on the guy soon if he can get a good package of prospects.
I hope you're right -- I would love for the Sox to go after him -- but I think you're wrong. I think Beane is done selling off and is ready to compete.

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-26-08, 10:45 PM
I hope you're right -- I would love for the Sox to go after him -- but I think you're wrong. I think Beane is done selling off and is ready to compete.

He could do that as well.

ojo
06-27-08, 08:39 AM
i think sheets is a perfect example about how gun-shy some yankees' fans are about acquiring pitchers.

sheets is a 'can count on two hands the best pitchers in the game guy'.

to not be interested in having this guy on your team is INSANE.

R.V.47
06-27-08, 01:22 PM
i think sheets is a perfect example about how gun-shy some yankees' fans are about acquiring pitchers.

sheets is a 'can count on two hands the best pitchers in the game guy'.

to not be interested in having this guy on your team is INSANE.

If he didnt have the injury history he has everyone would be on board, but you cant just throw away his injury history because hes been healthy so far this year. I would take a chance on Sheets but its still a big risk.

MissingBillyMartin
06-27-08, 02:22 PM
beane would ask for the moon for harden...pass

Eh, I don't think there is anything that really interests Beane in the Yankee system. I am sure he would avoid Tabata like the black plague and to be honest lots of other teams have much better pitching in their minor leagues. The Yankee system is just not deep enough to go after a guy like Harden. I am not even sure we have the bullets for Sabathia.

indianyanksfan
06-27-08, 06:02 PM
Eh, I don't think there is anything that really interests Beane in the Yankee system. I am sure he would avoid Tabata like the black plague and to be honest lots of other teams have much better pitching in their minor leagues. The Yankee system is just not deep enough to go after a guy like Harden. I am not even sure we have the bullets for Sabathia.

yanks are in top 5 wrt to pitching...not many teams have better pitching than the yanks.

hockeypuck2008
06-28-08, 03:38 PM
Sheets won't be a type B FA. He'll easily be type A even with the time he missed last year.

And anything more than 4 years for him is beyond foolish.

well he'll want and get five years. Gil Meche got five years. And from Ben Sheets standpoint, I don't blame him for asking for five years. This will be his last big pay day. Sheets and his agent are no fools. They know his own history of injury. So what do they do take a shorter contract with the chance for another big contract three or four years from now? Or do the demand five years right now and use his 2008 performance as leverage? A lot can happen in three to four years, he could fall off the cliff, lose control, lose velocity, or get injured yet again. And if that happens, he wont get nearly as much when he hits the streets three to four years from now.

Prison Mike
06-28-08, 06:06 PM
Eh, I don't think there is anything that really interests Beane in the Yankee system. I am sure he would avoid Tabata like the black plague and to be honest lots of other teams have much better pitching in their minor leagues. The Yankee system is just not deep enough to go after a guy like Harden. I am not even sure we have the bullets for Sabathia.

You're joking, right?

teknetic
06-28-08, 06:29 PM
Eh, I don't think there is anything that really interests Beane in the Yankee system. I am sure he would avoid Tabata like the black plague and to be honest lots of other teams have much better pitching in their minor leagues. The Yankee system is just not deep enough to go after a guy like Harden. I am not even sure we have the bullets for Sabathia.

I think you have our farm system confused with the other NY team. Because, the last two sentences are pretty much completely false.

ICEBERG18
06-28-08, 07:28 PM
to be honest lots of other teams have much better pitching in their minor leagues. The Yankee system is just not deep enough to go after a guy like Harden. I am not even sure we have the bullets for Sabathia.

Huh?:dunno:

Abe Frohman
06-28-08, 09:41 PM
I heard Rosenthal say today that the Brew Crew may be BUYERS not sellers for a

pitcher at the deadline. So i guess this means that Sheets wont be dealt ???

philleotardo
06-29-08, 01:07 AM
I heard Rosenthal say today that the Brew Crew may be BUYERS not sellers for a

pitcher at the deadline. So i guess this means that Sheets wont be dealt ???They are absolutely in the mix for the wild card ( 1 GB of St. Louis) so I don't know why they would be sellers.

UWMyankee
06-29-08, 01:47 PM
Rumors on milwaukee's espn radio have the crew going after sabathia and pairing him with sheets around the deadline

teknetic
06-29-08, 02:18 PM
Package around LaPorta could get it done. Super.

1936-1939JoeNLou
06-29-08, 02:36 PM
Package around LaPorta could get it done. Super.

For the Brewers?

primetime714
06-29-08, 02:44 PM
well he'll want and get five years. Gil Meche got five years. And from Ben Sheets standpoint, I don't blame him for asking for five years. This will be his last big pay day. Sheets and his agent are no fools. They know his own history of injury. So what do they do take a shorter contract with the chance for another big contract three or four years from now? Or do the demand five years right now and use his 2008 performance as leverage? A lot can happen in three to four years, he could fall off the cliff, lose control, lose velocity, or get injured yet again. And if that happens, he wont get nearly as much when he hits the streets three to four years from now.

No arguments from me that's why I don't want to sign him. 5-years and at least 15M per is too much for a guy with that has Sheets' history of injuries.

hockeypuck2008
06-29-08, 03:12 PM
No arguments from me that's why I don't want to sign him. 5-years and at least 15M per is too much for a guy with that has Sheets' history of injuries.

same issues arise with Harden. My bet he has a stellar season next year.

MTYankee23
07-09-08, 08:53 PM
Watching Sheets' start tonight, and he's been absolutely filthy, if the Brewers play big games in September and October and Sheets comes up big, 5/75 would be a bargain. In my mind, he's just the type of luxury the Yankees can afford. From what I can recall, his injury history hasn't been arm related for the most part. Definitely worth looking into on the Yankees part.

UWMyankee
07-09-08, 09:23 PM
Sheets had shoulder tendonitis that put him on the DL, but other than that he's always had weird things happen to him, like a series of ear infections that caused dizziness or a stomach virus, that put him on the DL. But knowing that he and Sabathia are going to be type-A free agents, do we give up the draft picks for both of them or do we just go after one? I'd prefer CC as an AL proven pitcher and he's 2 years younger w/o an injury history

Yankee Tripper
07-09-08, 09:25 PM
Sheets had shoulder tendonitis that put him on the DL, but other than that he's always had weird things happen to him, like a series of ear infections that caused dizziness or a stomach virus, that put him on the DL. But knowing that he and Sabathia are going to be type-A free agents, do we give up the draft picks for both of them or do we just go after one? I'd prefer CC as an AL proven pitcher and he's 2 years younger w/o an injury history
Screw the draft picks, go for both aces. CC, Sheets, Wang, Joba, Hughes would be freaking unstoppable.

UWMyankee
07-09-08, 09:28 PM
Screw the draft picks, go for both aces. CC, Sheets, Wang, Joba, Hughes would be freaking unstoppable.

I agree. I actually called my dad (Brewer fan) the day the CC trade happened and told him to enjoy the top of our pitching staff in 09 for the rest of this year.

ICEBERG18
07-10-08, 12:24 AM
But knowing that he and Sabathia are going to be type-A free agents, do we give up the draft picks for both of them or do we just go after one?

I want both.;)

ThePinStripes
07-10-08, 12:34 AM
I agree. I actually called my dad (Brewer fan) the day the CC trade happened and told him to enjoy the top of our pitching staff in 09 for the rest of this year.

aside from having 4 aces, we'd have 4 aces for another 5 years- minimum. The oldest of them is 27 or 28 IIRC.

That's PLENTY of time to grow something in the farm.

hockeypuck2008
07-10-08, 12:52 AM
IMO, Sheets could be the next Mike Hampton. So do you want to take that chance? He will want 5 years and he'll get it.

Yankees1962
07-10-08, 01:03 AM
Unless the Yankees blow all the other offers out of the water, I don't have a good feeling that CC wants to play in New York. Also, I'm not a big fan of Sheets due to his health history. The Yankees/Cashman have their work cut out for them.

False1
07-10-08, 01:36 AM
IMO, Sheets could be the next Mike Hampton. So do you want to take that chance? He will want 5 years and he'll get it.As long as they don't compound it with other risky signings (e.g. Pavano AND Wright) I think it's got to be considered. Guys that can put up 150 ERA+ are very tough to find, particularly as FA's where we only have to forfeit a draft pick. Even in the years where Sheets has had the injury bug, he's been around to pitch at the end of the year and presumably could have pitched into the playoffs.

... although that said, I looked at his splits for his career and he's about a 1/2 run worse in the second half. Will be interesting to see what he does after the ASB this year. He certainly has millions riding on it.

MTYankee23
07-10-08, 09:08 AM
Unless the Yankees blow all the other offers out of the water, I don't have a good feeling that CC wants to play in New York. Also, I'm not a big fan of Sheets due to his health history. The Yankees/Cashman have their work cut out for them.

His health history has been mostly odd injuries, he's definitely shown himself capable of pitching a full history. I think it's definitely a possibility that CC wants to play on the west coast, but the player's union usually has a say in these things.

Personally, I think the Yankees should be in on both of them, because as someone pointed out, pitchers than are capable of 150 ERA+ with strikeout stuff don't come available for just draft picks very often, and if you sign them in the same season, you only lose 1 1st rounder.

As far spots in the rotation, you can never have enough pitching, and some of the cost controlled pitchers we've developed can be spun off for some cost controlled position players that we desperately need.

Yankees1962
07-10-08, 09:10 AM
His health history has been mostly odd injuries, he's definitely shown himself capable of pitching a full history. I think it's definitely a possibility that CC wants to play on the west coast, but the player's union usually has a say in these things.

Personally, I think the Yankees should be in on both of them, because as someone pointed out, pitchers than are capable of 150 ERA+ with strikeout stuff don't come available for just draft picks very often, and if you sign them in the same season, you only lose 1 1st rounder.

As far spots in the rotation, you can never have enough pitching, and some of the cost controlled pitchers we've developed can be spun off for some cost controlled position players that we desperately need.
I doubt the players union will say anything if the offer from LA is close enough and CC wants to return home to California.

MTYankee23
07-10-08, 09:21 AM
I doubt the players union will say anything if the offer from LA is close enough and CC wants to return home to California.

I'm guessing that the Yankees will try to make that offer far enough away from "close enough" that it will make the difference. But we'll have to see.

Yankees1962
07-10-08, 09:28 AM
I'm guessing that the Yankees will try to make that offer far enough away from "close enough" that it will make the difference. But we'll have to see.
As much as I want CC, I wouldn't offer him the moon.

MTYankee23
07-10-08, 10:19 AM
As much as I want CC, I wouldn't offer him the moon.

This is where I disagree, for premium pitchers (esp. lefties), the Yankees should be using their financial resources.

Where I dislike them doing it is filling out the rotation and the bullpen (3-5 type starters, and non-closers).

R.V.47
07-10-08, 01:44 PM
One advantage with Sheets, is that with his injury history theres no way anyone will offer the same amount of years that CC will probably get. Sheets will get max 4 years and even that might be pushing it, Id offer him 3.

YASS
07-10-08, 02:03 PM
One advantage with Sheets, is that with his injury history theres no way anyone will offer the same amount of years that CC will probably get. Sheets will get max 4 years and even that might be pushing it, Id offer him 3.
I don't know about 5, but someone will certainly offer him 4 years.

knickfan23
07-10-08, 02:25 PM
One advantage with Sheets, is that with his injury history theres no way anyone will offer the same amount of years that CC will probably get. Sheets will get max 4 years and even that might be pushing it, Id offer him 3.

He will get 5 if he equates the same numbers he had in the first half. If Sheets goes 20-6 with an ERA under 3 and happens to win some postseason games, their will be some crazy team that will throw out 100 million for 6 years.

primetime714
07-10-08, 03:05 PM
He will get 5 if he equates the same numbers he had in the first half. If Sheets goes 20-6 with an ERA under 3 and happens to win some postseason games, their will be some crazy team that will throw out 100 million for 6 years.

Yea I agree. This may sound strange but I'd almost rather sign Sheets coming off another injury or after struggling down the stretch. That's probably the only way he'll sign for 4 years or less. Anything more than 4 years for him would be a mistake in my opinion.

MTYankee23
07-10-08, 03:07 PM
Yea I agree. This may sound strange but I'd almost rather sign Sheets coming off another injury or after struggling down the stretch. That's probably the only way he'll sign for 4 years or less. Anything more than 4 years for him would be a mistake in my opinion.

I'd give him 5 if the 5th was an option that vested with 100 major league starts over the first 4 (25 per season).

ArodMVP217
07-10-08, 06:40 PM
you don't think he'd agree to a straight up 5th year team option?

Brick Tamland
07-10-08, 06:46 PM
I'd give him 5 if the 5th was an option that vested with 100 major league starts over the first 4 (25 per season).


I think he'd be offered the fifth year from someone else without the option.

UWMyankee
07-10-08, 06:47 PM
aside from having 4 aces, we'd have 4 aces for another 5 years- minimum. The oldest of them is 27 or 28 IIRC.

That's PLENTY of time to grow something in the farm.

Possibly 5 if Hughes turns out to be what he was expected to be. How nice would it be to have 5 potential 20 game winners on the Yankee pitching staff for the last 3 years of that (giving Chamberlain & Hughes the time to develop). The only problem that I would have with giving up the draft picks is that the system is so lacking in bats other than AJax, Tabata, and Montero, but that can always be handled through free agency as well. But I'm all for signing both Sabathia and Sheets this offseason.

O/T: I know Giambi has an option for next year, but how does Juan Miranda project to the majors and could he be an option? (I know Tex is a free agent as well)

MTYankee23
07-10-08, 08:53 PM
I think he'd be offered the fifth year from someone else without the option.

Not really, personally, I think he's getting 5 years, and I'd be all about giving it to him. He's the kind of luxury the Yankees should try and afford.

ThePinStripes
07-11-08, 02:58 AM
Possibly 5 if Hughes turns out to be what he was expected to be. How nice would it be to have 5 potential 20 game winners on the Yankee pitching staff for the last 3 years of that (giving Chamberlain & Hughes the time to develop). The only problem that I would have with giving up the draft picks is that the system is so lacking in bats other than AJax, Tabata, and Montero, but that can always be handled through free agency as well. But I'm all for signing both Sabathia and Sheets this offseason.

O/T: I know Giambi has an option for next year, but how does Juan Miranda project to the majors and could he be an option? (I know Tex is a free agent as well)

We'd have 5 years to develop the farm, at the least. We'd be able to make a lot of trades too, since we wouldn't need most of up and coming pitchers. After all, what are we going to do with a just-above-average +22 year old pitcher in a rotation like that? Save him in the minors until he's near 30? Trade off the farm and regrow it over the next 5 years. Sell the food we can't eat or it will go bad :)

primetime714
07-11-08, 09:12 AM
O/T: I know Giambi has an option for next year, but how does Juan Miranda project to the majors and could he be an option? (I know Tex is a free agent as well)

Miranda- below average defense, can't hit left handed pitching, mashes righties. Overall probably projects as a lefty bat off the bench/fringe starter. If we re-sign Giambi he'd be good insurance in case of an injury. I certainly wouldn't turn the position over to Miranda though unless there weren't any better options.

knickfan23
07-11-08, 09:27 AM
Possibly 5 if Hughes turns out to be what he was expected to be. How nice would it be to have 5 potential 20 game winners on the Yankee pitching staff for the last 3 years of that (giving Chamberlain & Hughes the time to develop). The only problem that I would have with giving up the draft picks is that the system is so lacking in bats other than AJax, Tabata, and Montero, but that can always be handled through free agency as well. But I'm all for signing both Sabathia and Sheets this offseason.

O/T: I know Giambi has an option for next year, but how does Juan Miranda project to the majors and could he be an option? (I know Tex is a free agent as well)

What you do in that case is that you use the strength of you minor leagues, which is your pitching, and you trade them for young blue chip offensive players from another team.

knickfan23
07-11-08, 09:45 AM
Yea I agree. This may sound strange but I'd almost rather sign Sheets coming off another injury or after struggling down the stretch. That's probably the only way he'll sign for 4 years or less. Anything more than 4 years for him would be a mistake in my opinion.

I wanted to look at his injury to see if there was major stuff and here's what I dug up.

In 2005, he sustained what was termed a "viral infection" of the inner ear, and missed 30 games due to dizziness and altered balance.

A torn latissimus dorsi muscle in his right shoulder occurred in late August 2005 and ended his season.

In the offseason, he had a microdiscectomy back surgery to correct a herniated disc in his lumbar spine (low back). While this is considered to be a minor back surgery, it should be noted that no back surgery is "minor." Having any spine procedure as a 27-year-old is somewhat concerning, and leads me to wonder how his overall core conditioning is.

The 2006 season saw Sheets begin the year on the DL due to a posterior shoulder strain.

Tendinitis of the right shoulder landed him back on the DL in early May. He spent a great deal of time on the DL with this injury—a span of 72 games passed before he returned to action.

A torn tendon in his right middle finger sidetracked his 2007 campaign; he was sent to the DL in July and missed a course of 40 games.

After returning for a few starts, a minor hamstring strain was enough for him to miss the final eight games of the regular season.

He has also dealt with an array of minor injuries that did not require much, if any, missed time (right pectoral strain, left groin strain).


http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/all-about-ben-sheets/ (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/all-about-ben-sheets/)

The rest of the story (very interesting) about him compares him favorably in the pitching sense to Josh Beckett. Seeing him in person several times (including an 05 start against the Yankees), I felt as if I was watching a young Curt Schilling. Not every pitcher is injury proof. Hell, even Wang has missed good amounts of time with ailments. From the rotator cuff, to the hamstring from last year and now this. Surely we are much more protective of our player that someone else's.

MTYankee23
07-11-08, 09:46 AM
What you do in that case is that you use the strength of you minor leagues, which is your pitching, and you trade them for young blue chip offensive players from another team.

Exactly, or you break each of your starters with ace potential in slowly (i.e. similar to how Joba was brought along) or both. I hope that Cash recognizes that the development of the farm system under Oppenheimer has been a huge plus, but it's still a few years away from being a complete player development machine. A few marquee FA signings this offseason would be a great assistance to that process. Especially when you can afford to pay potential first rounders, first round money, in the later rounds.

ppa79
07-11-08, 09:29 PM
He is my backup if we can't get CC.

Metroidman
07-11-08, 09:32 PM
Sign Sheets and CC

Wang
CC
Joba
Sheets
Hughes

Now thats a rotation I can live with and might acutally help this anemic offense win games anyway.

ppa79
07-11-08, 09:35 PM
Sign Sheets and CC

Wang
CC
Joba
Sheets
Hughes

Now thats a rotation I can live with and might acutally help this anemic offense win games anyway.

We can do that too. As long as we still get Tex.

Metroidman
07-11-08, 09:36 PM
We can do that too. As long as we still get Tex.

With Pavano/Moose/Andy/Giambi/Farnsworth/Hawkins all coming off the books we better go after all 3

ppa79
07-11-08, 09:37 PM
With Pavano/Moose/Andy/Giambi/Farnsworth/Hawkins all coming off the books we better go after all 3

And Bobby.

Metroidman
07-11-08, 09:39 PM
Yeah we need a huge overhaul on this team

We need a new

LF
RF
CF
1B
2 SP's

That's good enough to change the makeup of this team.

27IsNext
07-11-08, 09:51 PM
Somehow I don't think Hal and Cashman want the payroll to be $210 million anymore.

teknetic
07-11-08, 09:53 PM
Somehow I don't think Hal and Cashman want the payroll to be $210 million anymore.

I doubt signing two of them raises the payroll over 165, much less signing all three (which isn't happening)

R.V.47
07-12-08, 09:46 AM
Somehow I don't think Hal and Cashman want the payroll to be $210 million anymore.

Hal said the other day that he knows the yankees and their fans "deserve" marquee players on their team so Im assuming he knows that will cost some money. As for Cashman I agree, I think he would like to drastically reduce payroll.

knickfan23
07-13-08, 11:57 AM
Somehow I don't think Hal and Cashman want the payroll to be $210 million anymore.

They dont. And the reports over the last 2 years indicate that they have been wanting to shed payroll, but couldnt do so until after this specific season. I agree with it.

Having a 200 million payroll and then losing has a (subconscious) stigma that I dont believe they want to deal with anymore. Beside, why spend 200 million and lose when you can spend smart at 150 and win?

ppa79
07-13-08, 12:09 PM
The more I think about it, the more I want Sheets along with CC. His stuff will translate to the AL just like Schilling did.

ICEBERG18
07-13-08, 03:04 PM
The more I think about it, the more I want Sheets along with CC. His stuff will translate to the AL just like Schilling did.

I'm your running mate on this issue.;)

27IsNext
07-13-08, 03:30 PM
I wouldn't mind Sheets at a reasonable deal. He's got great stuff.

JeffWeaverFan
07-13-08, 03:32 PM
The more I think about it, the more I want Sheets along with CC. His stuff will translate to the AL just like Schilling did.
As long as he stays healthy...

ppa79
07-13-08, 03:33 PM
As long as he stays healthy...

yup. There are huge risks, but the 15 million dollar question is the risk worth taking?

ICEBERG18
07-13-08, 03:43 PM
yup. There are huge risks, but the 15 million dollar question is the risk worth taking?

Yes, even more so if C.C. comes along with him.

C.C.
Sheets
Joba
Wang
Hughes

Man, Cash has a chance to do something special here.

ArodMVP217
07-13-08, 05:59 PM
Who would you have at 15-16 million? Pettitte or Sheets? even with his injury bug, it is pretty obvious, sorry Andy

Hellsing
07-14-08, 01:05 AM
Mentioned this in the other thread...

If they cannot sign Sheets, I would sign Oliver Perez.
I *KNOW* he can be crazy, but when he is on, he is ABSOLUTELY dominant. He will also be MUCH cheaper than Sheets. (Not saying he is as good)

He can be slotted as the 4-5th starter with Hughes and they will not have the pressure to carry a team with CC, Joba, & Wang.

JeffWeaverFan
07-14-08, 01:10 AM
Yes, even more so if C.C. comes along with him.

C.C.
Sheets
Joba
Wang
Hughes

Man, Cash has a chance to do something special here.
I'm pretty sure the reason Cashman decided to spend so much money on drafting pitching prospects, and, in general, draft pitchers instead of hitters was so that he didn't have to give out 6+ year deals at huge $$$ to FA pitchers. And, personally, I think the thing that this team needs to improve on most for next year is hitting, not pitching.

flymick24
07-14-08, 01:10 AM
i'd rather re-sign pettitte for another year than give perez a huge contract

JeffWeaverFan
07-14-08, 01:11 AM
Mentioned this in the other thread...

If they cannot sign Sheets, I would sign Oliver Perez.
I *KNOW* he can be crazy, but when he is on, he is ABSOLUTELY dominant. He will also be MUCH cheaper than Sheets. (Not saying he is as good)

He can be slotted as the 4-5th starter with Hughes and they will not have the pressure to carry a team with CC, Joba, & Wang. I wouldn't touch him at all. Especially moving to the AL. He won't be cheap either as Boras is his agent.

Hellsing
07-14-08, 01:22 AM
I wouldn't touch him at all. Especially moving to the AL. He won't be cheap either as Boras is his agent.

He has a 2.35 ERA in Yankee stadium....granted that's because he is FACING the Yankees, but he has amazing stuff.

Given his track record, I cannot see how he would get over 10 per year.

Again, I would only sign him if I could not get Sheets. Acquiring Sheets would be overkill in terms of pitching depth, but if the FO believes he makes THAT much of a difference, then try and sign him.

MTYankee23
07-14-08, 09:58 AM
I'm pretty sure the reason Cashman decided to spend so much money on drafting pitching prospects, and, in general, draft pitchers instead of hitters was so that he didn't have to give out 6+ year deals at huge $$$ to FA pitchers. And, personally, I think the thing that this team needs to improve on most for next year is hitting, not pitching.

If hypothetically, you signed CC to 6 years, Sheets to 5, and Pettitte to 1. You could trade guys like Horne, McCutchen and Kennedy for cost controlled hitting, and rework Hughes through AAA or bring him up in case of injury. I think he'll thrive with lowered expectations.

knickfan23
07-14-08, 10:04 AM
He has a 2.35 ERA in Yankee stadium....granted that's because he is FACING the Yankees, but he has amazing stuff.

Given his track record, I cannot see how he would get over 10 per year.

Again, I would only sign him if I could not get Sheets. Acquiring Sheets would be overkill in terms of pitching depth, but if the FO believes he makes THAT much of a difference, then try and sign him.

There is no such thing is pitching depth overkill when you are the Yankees. As much high end quality arms are always acceptable here.

THEBOSS84
07-14-08, 10:05 AM
There is no such thing is pitching depth overkill when you are the Yankees. As much high end quality arms are always acceptable here.

You would think that there is no such thing as pitching depth underkill (prob not a real word) either if you are the Yanks...

knickfan23
07-14-08, 12:00 PM
You would think that there is no such thing as pitching depth underkill (prob not a real word) either if you are the Yanks...

I think underkill can count as a word Boss. Recently I used the term "managerialization" (not a real word either, but it made sense) to discuss Girardi bullpen usage.

JeffWeaverFan
07-14-08, 03:30 PM
He has a 2.35 ERA in Yankee stadium....granted that's because he is FACING the Yankees, but he has amazing stuff.

Given his track record, I cannot see how he would get over 10 per year.

Again, I would only sign him if I could not get Sheets. Acquiring Sheets would be overkill in terms of pitching depth, but if the FO believes he makes THAT much of a difference, then try and sign him.
He also walks the ballpark. His raw stats last year showed he was getting lucky too.

Fact is, he has had 2 good seasons in his career, and every other year has been below average. For his career, he has been a below average pitcher. And with that track record, he'll get a big contract.

marshcat
07-14-08, 07:11 PM
I heard an interview with Sheets on 1010 WINS. Sheets was all "OMG YS is so amazing I want to see monument park"

He wants to play here.

Sign his a$$!

just-blaze
07-14-08, 08:18 PM
Mentioned this in the other thread...

If they cannot sign Sheets, I would sign Oliver Perez.
I *KNOW* he can be crazy, but when he is on, he is ABSOLUTELY dominant. He will also be MUCH cheaper than Sheets. (Not saying he is as good)

He can be slotted as the 4-5th starter with Hughes and they will not have the pressure to carry a team with CC, Joba, & Wang.

I would sign Perez just so we dont have to face him again.


Then stash his crazy ass in AAA.

JavyVazquezIsSick
07-14-08, 08:43 PM
I'm pretty sure the reason Cashman decided to spend so much money on drafting pitching prospects, and, in general, draft pitchers instead of hitters was so that he didn't have to give out 6+ year deals at huge $$$ to FA pitchers. And, personally, I think the thing that this team needs to improve on most for next year is hitting, not pitching.

Besides Tex, there aren't any other bats I'd be willing to sign LT.

nnysiny
07-14-08, 08:46 PM
Mentioned this in the other thread...

If they cannot sign Sheets, I would sign Oliver Perez.
I *KNOW* he can be crazy, but when he is on, he is ABSOLUTELY dominant. He will also be MUCH cheaper than Sheets. (Not saying he is as good)

He can be slotted as the 4-5th starter with Hughes and they will not have the pressure to carry a team with CC, Joba, & Wang.
giving ace money to guy who can only pitch "when hes on" is crazy in itself

Hellsing
07-15-08, 02:56 PM
giving ace money to guy who can only pitch "when hes on" is crazy in itself

It's not like the Yankees haven't given out bad contract before.

/cough Pavano

I always liked Oliver's stuff. Maybe Nardi or Eiland can take a look at him and see what's wrong?

I bet you that if he went to the Cardinals, he could be an ACE under Duncan's tutelage.

THEBOSS84
07-15-08, 02:57 PM
It's not like the Yankees haven't given out bad contract before.

/cough Pavano

I always liked Oliver's stuff. Maybe Nardi or Eiland can take a look at him and see what's wrong?

I bet you that if he went to the Cardinals, he could be an ACE under Duncan's tutelage.

If Rick Peterson couldn't fix him in ten minutes...

surge511
07-15-08, 04:30 PM
To be honest, I'd rather sign Sheets than CC. I know he has more injury concerns, but he will be a lot cheaper, and I think he will be better than CC over the next 5-6 years. I personally think CC is peaking now, while Sheets is finally starting to stay on the field and perform.

wang+cano=future
07-15-08, 09:23 PM
How much do you think Sheets would cost per year? Maybe a 4-5 year deal at $14-15 million per?

I doubt Cash will sign both CC and Sheets, and I think investing free agent money for Tex and Sheets would be ideal. I just hope this year isn't a fluke and Sheets can stay healthy.

YESSIR!
07-15-08, 10:04 PM
He looked great in the ASG, but...ya know.

Prison Mike
07-15-08, 10:05 PM
Going any more than 4 years on Sheets would be incredibly risky.

just-blaze
07-15-08, 11:37 PM
How much do you think Sheets would cost per year? Maybe a 4-5 year deal at $14-15 million per?

I doubt Cash will sign both CC and Sheets, and I think investing free agent money for Tex and Sheets would be ideal. I just hope this year isn't a fluke and Sheets can stay healthy.

That's what Im thinking.....maybe a 5th year option.

But I think the longer the contract the lesser the AAV.

just-blaze
07-15-08, 11:40 PM
Going any more than 4 years on Sheets would be incredibly risky.

I wonder what legitimate teams are in the running for Sheets.