PDA

View Full Version : Moeller or Molina



NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 12:07 AM
A move will have to be made in the next couple of weeks, and one of them will have to go. It seems it is a forgone conclusion that Moeller will be the one to go, but shouldn't he be the one to stay.

Moeller can drive the ball and hit a HR. His OBP is .348.

Molina cannot hit a HR. His OBP is (get ready for it) .239!

Molina has 5 passed balls this year.

Moeller has 0 passed balls this year.

Defensively Moeller is not a liability. He should be kept around in my opinion, I would like to hear the arguments for the pro-Molina camp.

teknetic
06-16-08, 12:19 AM
I haven't paid attention to Moeller's ability to frame pitches/throw guys out, but Molina is extremely impressive in that regard. I'll take that over the offense Moeller provides.

YanksFan1992
06-16-08, 12:20 AM
We don't need a back-up catcher to provide offense as Posada does all that and more. What would be best for our team is a great defensive catcher and Molina provides that a bit better than Moeller does so I went with Molina.

groovitude
06-16-08, 12:25 AM
A move will have to be made in the next couple of weeks, and one of them will have to go. It seems it is a forgone conclusion that Moeller will be the one to go, but shouldn't he be the one to stay.

Moeller can drive the ball and hit a HR. His OBP is .348.

Molina cannot hit a HR. His OBP is (get ready for it) .239!

Defensively Moeller is not a liability. He should be kept around in my opinion, I would like to hear the arguments for the pro-Molina camp.
I was part of a fairly involved conversation about this in a pre-game thread, which you can find here (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=112009&page=2). The numbers are pretty interesting, both for the year and over their respective careers. Their career numbers overall are very similiar, but Moeller's been outperforming him this year, at least statistically.

My only question is whether or not Molina's numbers have been detrimentally affected by his greatly increased playing time. Remember that Molina came out of the gate pretty hot and dropped off significantly once he was the day-to-day backstop.

(Either way I voted Moeller.)

kan_t
06-16-08, 12:25 AM
Not to say that Moeller can't play defense, he is above average. But Molina is one of the best defensive catcher in the game and I take him over Moeller 10 out of 10 time.

And Moeller is a career .226/.287/.349 hitter. If you play him more, his production is going to drop.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 12:26 AM
Moved info up.

groovitude
06-16-08, 12:29 AM
Molina has 5 passed balls this year.

Moeller has 0 passed balls this year.As I mentioned in the thread I linked to above, this is of tremendous concern, and not for the obvious reasons. It's not that Moeller doesn't have any and Molina has five; it's that Molina has already tied his career high for passed balls in about half as many innings caught. That just seems like bad news.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 12:45 AM
As I mentioned in the thread I linked to above, this is of tremendous concern, and not for the obvious reasons. It's not that Moeller doesn't have any and Molina has five; it's that Molina has already tied his career high for passed balls in about half as many innings caught. That just seems like bad news.

Yeah, this is why I asked. Everyone just assumes Molina is going to stay, but I feel like no one is even looking at the numbers.

And when you look at the numbers both offensive AND defensive, Moeller is the better player.

continentalg5
06-16-08, 01:01 AM
I personally have always seen Molina as an excellent replacement for when Posada needs a day off.

For whatever reason, every time I see Moeller catching, I feel as though I don't trust him. I don't know why that is, but I just don't.

I vote that Molina stays.

Mark19
06-16-08, 01:05 AM
We still owe Molina $2 million

That will probably factor into the final decision much more than Moeller's recent string of XBHs.

groovitude
06-16-08, 01:27 AM
Yeah, this is why I asked. Everyone just assumes Molina is going to stay, but I feel like no one is even looking at the numbers.

And when you look at the numbers both offensive AND defensive, Moeller is the better player.
Re-running the numbers for clarity's sake, and to get a little more up-to-date:

Career numbers (offense):
Moeller: .225 / .287 / .348 / .635 (1257 AB)
Molina: .240 / .275 / .342 / .617 (1171 AB)

Moeller: .062 ISO-D / .123 ISO-P
Molina: .035 ISO-D / .102 ISO-P

2008 season (offense):
Moeller: .254 / .343 / .373 / .716 (59 AB)
Molina: .219 / .241 / .313 / .554 (128 AB)

Moeller: .089 ISO-D / .119 ISO-P
Molina: .022 ISO-D / .094 ISO-P

Career numbers (defense):
Moeller: .993 Fielding %, 26% Caught Stealing (73 of 286)
Molina: .991 Fielding %, 41% Caught Stealing (119 of 293)

Moeller: 12 passed balls in 3202.6 innings (career high: 4, 2005 in 520.6 innings)
Molina: 27 passed balls in 3143 innings (career high: 5, 2006 in 603.3 innings and 2008 in 340.6 innings)

2008 season (defense):
Moeller: .984 Fielding % (2 E), 37% Caught Stealing (7 of 19)
Molina: .993 Fielding % (2 E), 40% Caught Stealing (17 of 42)

Moeller: 0 passed balls in 151 innings
Molina: 5 passed balls in 340.6 innings


We still owe Molina $2 million

That will probably factor into the final decision much more than Moeller's recent string of XBHs.Kei Igawa was called up over Dan Giese for that fill-in start earlier this season; just because the Yankees do it because of the business end of baseball doesn't mean the move is right between the lines.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 02:05 AM
I can't see how anyone can look at those numbers groov and think Molina is the better option.

fredgmuggs
06-16-08, 05:37 AM
Back in my youth, it wasn't unusual for a team to carry 3 catchers on their 25 man roster. But then again, they also had 10 man pitching staffs, too.

Yeah, I'm old.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 07:18 AM
Molina is winning 13-3, but can anyone provide any evidence that Molina is a better player right now than Chad Moeller?

shadyridr
06-16-08, 08:59 AM
Molina is the best backup catcher weve had in the Posada era. Why would we release him for a journeyman?

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 09:13 AM
Molina is the best backup catcher weve had in the Posada era. Why would we release him for a journeyman?

Look at the numbers. Why is Molina so great a backup catcher?

How is he better than Moeller?

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-16-08, 09:22 AM
Good question. Moeller has been very impressive.

primetime714
06-16-08, 09:25 AM
I don't understand why we have to get rid of either. I mean its not like we have minor league positional players other than Gardner that are chomping at the bit. And if we want to bring up Gardner we can always send Gonzalez down.

If its a decision between Moeller and Molina you have to keep Molina. However I don't see why we need to get rid of Moeller especially anytime soon.

While it doesn't seem economical to keep 3 C's. Posada can always play some backup 1B. Also when Molina starts we can pinch hit with Posada and if we don't want him catching the rest of the game can bring in Moeller to finish off the game. Or we can even DH Posada and still have a backup C on the bench.

Moeller is actually a solid RH bat certainly better than what Duncan, Ensberg, and Gonzalez have shown us.

I'm not saying we should keep Moeller the rest of the year, I'm just saying until we truly need to make a move here we should hold onto him.

Abe Frohman
06-16-08, 09:26 AM
why is this even a question ??? Molina can be a starter on any of the other 29


teams ... Moeller has cleared waivers like a gazillion times in his career.

NyyNjnNyg
06-16-08, 09:28 AM
Gotta be Molina..Moeller will get exposed if he plays more.

themgmt
06-16-08, 09:29 AM
I can't see how anyone can look at those numbers groov and think Molina is the better option.

CS percentages for their career are not even close. Molina is a better framer/receiver.

That's all that matters from a back up standpoint, on top of that, Moehller is a career .225 hitter. Just because he has limited at-bats and chances to throw runners out this year his numbers look OK. He has proven over his career to be a well below average hitter, and slightly below at throwing runners out

I can't believe people are pointing out the fact that he hit a HR this year. So what? Molina will get his 1 HR for the year too, just hasn't yet. People are so fickle.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 09:34 AM
My major problem with Molina is when Yankee fans just casually say Molina is the best backup catcher we have had for Posada? The numbers don't bear that out. They don't even show that he is better than Moeller offensively OR defensively.


why is this even a question ??? Molina can be a starter on any of the other 29

Gosh this is exactly what I am talking about. This is a crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzy statement.

At this point in his career he is a slightly above average defender, a hitter with zero pop and a .239 OBP. And he is the slowest baserunner in the league.

Yankee fans have serious Jose Molina blinders on.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 09:36 AM
CS percentages for their career are not even close. Molina is a better framer/receiver.

That's all that matters from a back up standpoint, on top of that, Moehller is a career .225 hitter. Just because he has limited at-bats and chances to throw runners out this year his numbers look OK. He has proven over his career to be a well below average hitter, and slightly below at throwing runners out

I can't believe people are pointing out the fact that he hit a HR this year. So what? Molina will get his 1 HR for the year too, just hasn't yet. People are so fickle.

It's not really just that he hit a HR, it's that Moeller actually hits the ball with a little authority.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 09:39 AM
Look at the numbers. Why is Molina so great a backup catcher?

How is he better than Moeller?

Theyre both horrible hitters in their career. Molina is far superior defensively

themgmt
06-16-08, 09:48 AM
It's not really just that he hit a HR, it's that Moeller actually hits the ball with a little authority.

Are you serious? Moehller has hit about 3 balls on the screws this year. His 1 HR was in Baltimore if I remember correctly. If they both played a full season at catcher, Moeller would maybe hit 1 more HR. Their difference in power is negligible. Moeller hits a lot of pop flies and strikes out a lot. Molina hits more line drives and can get down a bunt.

Either way, their offensive prowess aside, Molina is 10 times better behind the plate.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 09:58 AM
Are you serious? Moehller has hit about 3 balls on the screws this year. His 1 HR was in Baltimore if I remember correctly. If they both played a full season at catcher, Moeller would maybe hit 1 more HR. Their difference in power is negligible. Moeller hits a lot of pop flies and strikes out a lot. Molina hits more line drives and can get down a bunt.

Either way, their offensive prowess aside, Molina is 10 times better behind the plate.

Moeller can also take a walk, I am going to break out the OBP numbers again,

Moeller .348, Molina .239, here let me bold Molina's OBP so everyone can read it.

That is significant, it's a hundred point difference.


You may say the difference between their power is negligble, but I say the difference between the defense is negligible, Moeller 0 pass balls, Molina 5 pass balls, they both have 2 errors and their CS rate is both pretty decent.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 10:10 AM
Moeller can also take a walk, I am going to break out the OBP numbers again,

Moeller .348, Molina .239, here let me bold Molina's OBP so everyone can read it.

That is significant, it's a hundred point difference.


You may say the difference between their power is negligble, but I say the difference between the defense is negligible, Moeller 0 pass balls, Molina 5 pass balls, they both have 2 errors and their CS rate is both pretty decent.
CAREER OBP: Molina .275, Moeller .287
CAREER SLG: Molina .341, Moeller .349

Like I said they are both horrible hitters. Why are you basing this argument on Moeller's ridiculously small sample size this year and ignoring their career #s. Offensively they are the same player - horrible. Defensively Molina is FAR superior to Moeller.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 10:14 AM
CAREER OBP: Molina .275, Moeller .287
CAREER SLG: Molina .341, Moeller .349

Like I said they are both horrible hitters. Why are you basing this argument on Moeller's ridiculously small sample size this year and ignoring their career #s. Offensively they are the same player - horrible. Defensively Molina is FAR superior to Moeller.

Has Molina been FAR superior this year? Has he been even just superior?

I argue Molina has been worse than Moeller behind the plate.

themgmt
06-16-08, 10:14 AM
Moeller can also take a walk, I am going to break out the OBP numbers again,

Moeller .348, Molina .239, here let me bold Molina's OBP so everyone can read it.

That is significant, it's a hundred point difference.


You may say the difference between their power is negligble, but I say the difference between the defense is negligible, Moeller 0 pass balls, Molina 5 pass balls, they both have 2 errors and their CS rate is both pretty decent.

SSS. Dude their career OBPs are almost the same, .275 to.287, and more of Molina's OBP being attributed to BA (which over a small sample is usually better). Their career CS percentage isn't even close. Molina at around 40%, Moeller at around 25%.

Molina is a much better receiver as well.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 10:17 AM
SSS. Dude their career OBPs are almost the same, .275 to.287, and more of Molina's OBP being attributed to BA (which over a small sample is usually better). Their career CS percentage isn't even close. Molina at around 40%, Moeller at around 25%.

Do you have no concerns that Molina is in a serious decline?

As groovitude pointed out 5 passed balls is a career high for Molina and we are only in Mid-June.

Or are you perfectly content with the lack of production at the plate and behind it?

shadyridr
06-16-08, 10:17 AM
Has Molina been FAR superior this year? Has he been even just superior?

I argue Molina has been worse than Moeller behind the plate.

Why are you so obssessed with this year (60 games in)? Why ignore their career #s?

shadyridr
06-16-08, 10:18 AM
Do you have no concerns that Molina is in a serious decline?

As groovitude pointed out 5 passed balls is a career high for Molina and we are only in Mid-June.

Or are you perfectly content with the lack of production at the plate and behind it?

Theyre the same age.

themgmt
06-16-08, 10:23 AM
Do you have no concerns that Molina is in a serious decline?

As groovitude pointed out 5 passed balls is a career high for Molina and we are only in Mid-June.

Or are you perfectly content with the lack of production at the plate and behind it?


Are you under the impression that overnight Moeller has become a good hitter with a .350 OBP? Do you have no concerns that it is a fluke stretch of 60 ABs and it's likely to even out? That he's now throwing out runners much higher than his career rate it's likely to even out?

Do you think any of the passed balls could have anything to do with a couple cross ups, catching so many new pitchers?


Moeller is not any better offensively, and Molina can handle the bat. Molina is a much better thrower and receiver, period.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 10:25 AM
Theyre the same age.

I know, I was talking about performance wise. At their current age, Moeller is performing better.

I have to go to bed now, perhaps groovitude can pick up the case for Moeller in my absence.

In Mo I Trust
06-16-08, 10:29 AM
Look at the numbers. Why is Molina so great a backup catcher?

How is he better than Moeller?

Molina has a negative VORP this year.

JohnnyDamonfan
06-16-08, 10:34 AM
I gotta pick Molina on this one.

groovitude
06-16-08, 11:24 AM
CS percentages for their career are not even close. Molina is a better framer/receiver.

That's all that matters from a back up standpoint, on top of that, Moehller is a career .225 hitter. Just because he has limited at-bats and chances to throw runners out this year his numbers look OK. He has proven over his career to be a well below average hitter, and slightly below at throwing runners out.Career CS percentages aren't close, you're right; I would like to point out, though, that Molina's CS% has dropped consistently over the past few seasons and has been fluctuating between being just over and just below last year's % so far. On the 6th, when we first started debating this, Moeller actually had a better CS% on the year than Molina did.


Their difference in power is negligible. Moeller hits a lot of pop flies and strikes out a lot. Molina hits more line drives and can get down a bunt. From The Hardball Times: Moeller's line drive percentage this season is 23.9%; Molina's is 15.6%.


CAREER OBP: Molina .275, Moeller .287
CAREER SLG: Molina .341, Moeller .349

Like I said they are both horrible hitters. Why are you basing this argument on Moeller's ridiculously small sample size this year and ignoring their career #s. Offensively they are the same player - horrible. Defensively Molina is FAR superior to Moeller.Because the sample size isn't going to get all that much bigger for Moeller even if he remains the backup catcher if Posada stays healthy. Their career averages are worth taking a look at; but one is currently outperforming the other this year. To bring up another example off the top of my head (the numbers are fresh in my mind from another recent argument), you can certainly cite LaTroy Hawkins's career numbers, or his numbers from 2000 on as an example that he's a good pitcher; but do you want him right now?


Why are you so obssessed with this year (60 games in)? Why ignore their career #s?... Because they're playing this year? Granted it's a small sample size, but like I said, the sample won't get all that much bigger from here on out if Posada stays healthy.


Are you under the impression that overnight Moeller has become a good hitter with a .350 OBP? Do you have no concerns that it is a fluke stretch of 60 ABs and it's likely to even out? That he's now throwing out runners much higher than his career rate it's likely to even out?

Do you think any of the passed balls could have anything to do with a couple cross ups, catching so many new pitchers?I don't think Moeller has mystically seen the light or anything; but his numbers so far this year aren't career highs, either. This could be an up year for him, and if so, I'd like to take advantage of it -- especially if he's outperforming the other backup catcher in the process. Speaking of throwing out runners at a higher-than-career rate -- weren't we awed at how much better Posada was when Tony Pena showed up? Perhaps they've been working together -- who knows. At any rate, Molina and Moeller are about on par with each other this year in terms of CS%.

Also -- Moeller's been catching unfamiliar pitchers as well, and has not allowed a passed ball yet. If he was on the same pace as Molina is, he would have allowed at least two by now.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 11:30 AM
... Because they're playing this year? Granted it's a small sample size, but like I said, the sample won't get all that much bigger from here on out if Posada stays healthy.



Maybe we should start playing Betemit at 2B over Cano since Betemit has a .677 OPS & Cano has a .591 OPS THIS YEAR.

groovitude
06-16-08, 11:37 AM
Maybe we should start playing Betemit at 2B over Cano since Betemit has a .677 OPS & Cano has a .591 OPS THIS YEAR.There are two flaws in that argument that do not apply to Moeller and Molina. One, the difference between Cano and Betemit's career numbers aren't negligible. Two, the sample size is going to get a hell of a lot bigger for Betmit if he suddenly takes over the everyday second baseman's job than Moeller's will get if he becomes our only backup catcher.

I appreciate your keying into small sample size, though; you make a sound, reasonable argument. Once you know the rules, though, you have to see the possible exceptions, and I think this is one of them. A backup catcher will, by default, have a small sample size.

fredgmuggs
06-16-08, 11:57 AM
Molina, no question.

When he's behind the plate he controls the opposition's running game, he's an excellent framer of pitches, seems to call a very good game and pitchers like to throw to him... and occasionally he gets a big hit. I'll take that from my back-up catcher every time.

The Yankees have more money invested in Molina, so if they can't trade him that ends the debate right there. If Molina is part of a deal, I wouldn't be unhappy with Moeller (but I would prefer Molina)

teknetic
06-16-08, 12:03 PM
I can't see how anyone can look at those numbers groov and think Molina is the better option.

Huh? Molina throws out runners at a far better clip and has been a better hitter during his career. I'm not really sure why we should be concerned about offense from a backup catcher who's main contribution to this team is his terrific ability to call a game/frame pitches/play solid defense.

Moeller's been impressive, but I'd pick Molina without blinking. Couldn't really care less if he goes hitless for long stretches either.

yankeeman61
06-16-08, 12:05 PM
As long as Posada can make it through the season, the Yankees have one of the best offensive catchers in all of baseball. While Moeller is a better hitter than Molina and is a decent defensive catcher, Molina is substaintially better at framing, blocking and throwing. I would rather see him come into the game if Posada needs a break. They'll have to live with his weak bat because what he does behind the plate for the pitchers is a very important asset to have on the team.

shadyridr
06-16-08, 12:10 PM
Huh? Molina throws out runners at a far better clip and has been a better hitter during his career. I'm not really sure why we should be concerned about offense from a backup catcher who's main contribution to this team is his terrific ability to call a game/frame pitches/play solid defense.

Moeller's been impressive, but I'd pick Molina without blinking. Couldn't really care less if he goes hitless for long stretches either.

Ive been defending Molina as well but the #s show Moeller is a "slightly" better hitter in his career. Either way you look at it they are both very bad hitters.

Yankee Tripper
06-16-08, 12:16 PM
Molina is a competent backup. You don't throw him out of the mix based on 60 good ABs from a journeyman backup catcher.

Now if the the Yanks could deal Jose for anything of value, I'd have no problem with Moeller at the back up. He seems like an OK journeyman as things go and offensively has been pretty similar to Jose throughout his career but I think he had one pretty good year about 5 years ago that skew his career numbers some.

Again based on the very small samples from this year I don't keep Moeller over Molina.

themgmt
06-16-08, 12:26 PM
From The Hardball Times: Moeller's line drive percentage this season is 23.9%; Molina's is 15.6%.


SSS for the year, again. Molina hits more LD for the career, not by a considerable amount (more GB as well). Someone made the point that Moeller hits the ball with more authority. I said it isn't true because Moeller hits a lot of flyballs, meaning more chances for HRs. It doesn't mean that he's hitting the ball with more authority than Molina, and their BABIP difference is hugely in favor of Molina. He hits the ball better, contrary to what the poster said

MaximMan121
06-16-08, 02:50 PM
Maybe we should start playing Betemit at 2B over Cano since Betemit has a .677 OPS & Cano has a .591 OPS THIS YEAR.

frankly, that OBP is a freaking anchor.

I voted Molina, but more and more, reading through this I realize I'd go Moeller.

YESSIR!
06-16-08, 03:13 PM
This keeps poppin up, heh. Gotta go with Molina. Look at it this way:

Their offensive numbers are very close, so close in fact that it makes them irrelevent in the comparison, imo.

Molina has the far superior arm. It makes brigning him into a game against a team that runs a lot a hughe bonus. Moeller will do nothing for us in that situation.

The passed balls are hardly an issue given their relative infrequency, in my opinion.

Molina frames pitches like a champ! (I had to, groov ;) ). Really though, he does. Molina is extremely good at making pitches just off the plate look like strikes. He also provides a statuesque demeanor behind the plate. The guy doesn't move a friggin' inch for the pitcher. It makes him extremely easy to throw to, imo.

Lastly, and I don't have the time to look at pitchers stats when throwing to each guy (maybe someone else can check?), but I feel like Molina handles pitchers better. He appears to call a very good game and keep his guys comfortable. Again, I have no real evidence forthis, but it's a feeling.

Basically, the offense difference is negligable, but I feel like Molina offers much more to controling the running game, and is better with the pitching staff.

JL25and3
06-16-08, 03:57 PM
I think people are making a lot of judgments about catchers' defensive abilities based on next to nothing. Let's face it, unless John Flaherty (or some other announcer) tells us, we really have no way of judging how well a catcher "frames" the ball. We'll only notice it on those few exceptional pitches the announcers points out - and they make a point of mentioning it with Molina. Is that because he's legitimately better, or is it just because it's part of the Molina story line? I have no idea. How much of a difference does it actually make? I have no idea about that, either.

And I don't think anyone here really knows any better than I do. Lots of assertions, but no facts.

themgmt
06-16-08, 04:35 PM
I think people are making a lot of judgments about catchers' defensive abilities based on next to nothing. Let's face it, unless John Flaherty (or some other announcer) tells us, we really have no way of judging how well a catcher "frames" the ball. We'll only notice it on those few exceptional pitches the announcers points out - and they make a point of mentioning it with Molina. Is that because he's legitimately better, or is it just because it's part of the Molina story line? I have no idea. How much of a difference does it actually make? I have no idea about that, either.

And I don't think anyone here really knows any better than I do. Lots of assertions, but no facts.

What??? Speak for yourself. I watch how the pitch is framed on all pitches

YESSIR!
06-16-08, 04:46 PM
I think people are making a lot of judgments about catchers' defensive abilities based on next to nothing. Let's face it, unless John Flaherty (or some other announcer) tells us, we really have no way of judging how well a catcher "frames" the ball. We'll only notice it on those few exceptional pitches the announcers points out - and they make a point of mentioning it with Molina. Is that because he's legitimately better, or is it just because it's part of the Molina story line? I have no idea. How much of a difference does it actually make? I have no idea about that, either.

And I don't think anyone here really knows any better than I do. Lots of assertions, but no facts.

Yeah, I'm not sure what you're getting on about here. You can clearly see how subtly and well a catcher repositions his glove after receiving a pitch. I happen to believe Molina does a good job of bringing pitches off the plate back into the zone in a way that is beneficial to his pitchers. Even if he only gets 2 or 3 pitches called over the course of a game, those couple pitches could be a big deal.

You obviously have an idea about these things because you mentioned them. Are there facts backing up what's being said? None that I'm willing or able to present, but I can bet that if you were to dissect game film you would find instances of "framing" coming into play.

primetime714
06-16-08, 05:01 PM
Can someone tell me why we can't keep both at least a little longer?? Is there some minor league player (other than Gardner, who should get regular playing time in AAA) that deserves the roster spot more than Moeller?

I mean I guess we could use another OF/PR, but I'd rather send down Gonzalez than DFA Moeller.

Having a 3rd C gives up the option to take Posada out late in games and put in Molina for defense without having to worry about not having another C available. It also allows us to pinch hit with Posada when he doesn't start and still give him the full day off from catching.

Yankee Tripper
06-16-08, 05:12 PM
3 catchers is redundant unless one of them is primarily a position player - neither Molina nor Moller is a palitable PH or PR option. The sooner Posada shows his shoulder is healthy, the happier I'll be. Preferably before the next round of interleague games in NL parks.

mgpenguin
06-16-08, 05:23 PM
I don't care about offensive numbers from a backup catcher unless they're abysmal. The difference between Moeller and Molina is not great enough to warrant declaring either the better hitter if it even mattered. Also, people are placing too much weight on his first twenty ABs... since then (46 PA) he's hit .220/.304/.293.

What I look at is defense. Molina frames pitches better than Moeller, has a better arm, and works with pitchers better than Moeller. Also, according to HBT, Moeller has paired up for a 4.76 ERA with his pitchers (153 innings), while Molina sits at 4.02 (341 innings). Finally, the passed balls don't worry me very much, but I wonder who the pitchers were that thew the passed balls. It seemed like a lot of times the pitcher would cross him up and the ball would get by. In any case, I don't think his problems with passed balls are great enough to be of much worry now that he's primarily a backup.

NYDCYankee
06-16-08, 06:54 PM
I don't care about offensive numbers from a backup catcher unless they're abysmal.

Like Molina's?

My concern is that Yankee fans think Molina is some kind of .313 hitter because that his what he hit last year when he was traded for. But because he did that, I feel like half the people here think he is capable of that kind of production. He isn't.

mgpenguin
06-16-08, 07:35 PM
Like Molina's?

My concern is that Yankee fans think Molina is some kind of .313 hitter because that his what he hit last year when he was traded for. But because he did that, I feel like half the people here think he is capable of that kind of production. He isn't.
First, I don't think he'll end up with "abysmal" numbers, unless you're judging him based on Posada's production. I think he'll end up with decent numbers compared to any other backup in baseball. And the point I alluded to in my post: Moeller is well on his way to having numbers like Molina's. My concern is that you and others think that because he hit .350 over six games he somehow provides better offense than Molina. In the end, Molina had to bat too often and got exposed, just like Moeller will be if he gets the number of at-bats as Molina. It's what happens to every marginal hitter.

In any event none of that really matters from a backup catcher; you want defense and game-calling ability from them, not offense.

apalradio
06-16-08, 07:36 PM
Six of one, half a dozen of the other. If I had to make a choice on the spot, I'd probably go Molina. They both have holes offensively, and their careers numbers are nearly identical. I have no logical reason, except maybe the Molina pedigree.

smckdwn989
06-16-08, 07:39 PM
it's not even close. molina by a mile. too many people care about offensive numbers. molina is a great defensive catcher, and is great with the pitching staff. he's a backup guy, and he has a cannon.

suha
06-16-08, 08:44 PM
We still owe Molina $2 million

That will probably factor into the final decision much more than Moeller's recent string of XBHs.

That and the fact that Mike Mussina is 10-4 with a 3.87 ERA and Molina is pretty much his personal catcher

groovitude
06-16-08, 08:48 PM
I don't care about offensive numbers from a backup catcher unless they're abysmal. The difference between Moeller and Molina is not great enough to warrant declaring either the better hitter if it even mattered. Also, people are placing too much weight on his first twenty ABs... since then (46 PA) he's hit .220/.304/.293.
Perhaps we should eliminate both of their first twenty at-bats to be fair. Without those first twenty AB, Molina is .201 / .228 / .284 in 119 PA.


What I look at is defense. Molina frames pitches better than Moeller, has a better arm, and works with pitchers better than Moeller. Also, according to HBT, Moeller has paired up for a 4.76 ERA with his pitchers (153 innings), while Molina sits at 4.02 (341 innings). Finally, the passed balls don't worry me very much, but I wonder who the pitchers were that thew the passed balls. It seemed like a lot of times the pitcher would cross him up and the ball would get by. In any case, I don't think his problems with passed balls are great enough to be of much worry now that he's primarily a backup.Am I the only one who finds this strange? One catcher works better with pitchers and calls a better game... but gets the signs crossed up to the point where he hits a career high in passed balls with only about three hundred innings. Something doesn't quite add up there.

Also -- since you wondered about the pitchers who delivered those passed balls, here they are:

* Joba Chamberlain, April 10th, 2008, during Chamberlain's first at-bat in relief of Andy Pettitte. Chamberlain ends the inning after a pop-out.

* Phil Hughes, April 13th, 2008. Neither Molina or Hughes had form that day; Hughes walked Ellsbury to lead off the inning. Ellsbury stole second and advanced to third on a throwing error by Molina. After another walk, an RBI single, an RBI sac fly, and a ground-rule double, the passed ball against Varitek scored the runner from third. Varitek then struck out looking.

* Chien-Ming Wang, April 27th, 2008. The passed ball comes during an at-bat against Travis Hafner in the bottom of the third, advancing #9 hitter Jason Michaels to third. Wang gets a groundout on Hafner to end the inning.

* Ian Kennedy, May 27, 2008. In the bottom of the second, a passed ball gets past Molina to allow Adam Jones to advance to third. The batter, Brian Roberts, then hits a weak ground ball to third. A throwing error on the play by Alex Rodriguez that would have ended the inning instead scores Jones. The inning ends after the next batter, Melvin Mora, strikes out swinging. The Yankees lose to the Orioles, 10-9.

* Joba Chamberlain, June 3rd, 2008. After walking Shannon Stewart, Chamberlain allows Stewart to advance on a balk rooted in a pickoff attempt with Alex Rios at the plate. Molina's passed ball allows Stewart to advance to third; he scores as Rios grounds out.


Molina frames pitches like a champ! (I had to, groov ).:D Nothing like a well-placed bit of humour amidst a good debate. Well-played sir! (And good memory.)

themgmt
06-16-08, 10:52 PM
Perhaps we should eliminate both of their first twenty at-bats to be fair. Without those first twenty AB, Molina is .201 / .228 / .284 in 119 PA.

You're totally missing the point. It's not about the first twenty ABs, it's about the incredibly small sample size. I'd also like to add that Moeller's career OBP being higher can probably almost directly be attributed to hitting in the national league, in front of the pitcher his whole career. Neither hitter is patient at the plate.

mgpenguin
06-16-08, 11:16 PM
Am I the only one who finds this strange? One catcher works better with pitchers and calls a better game... but gets the signs crossed up to the point where he hits a career high in passed balls with only about three hundred innings. Something doesn't quite add up there.
It's not really strange if you look at it in the context of what I was pondering... that occasionally the pitchers nervous and crossed him up. I can't say for certain, obviously, but it seems like two of those passed balls, those of Hughes and Kennedy, could be chalked up to the pitcher being nervous and misreading what Molina was calling for. Or I could be wrong. I really don't know, and I'm not going back and looking at video. It's just something that sticks out in my mind as a possibility. In any event, when you look at the totality of the pitching staff it seems like the like working with Molina.

teknetic
06-16-08, 11:37 PM
I think people are making a lot of judgments about catchers' defensive abilities based on next to nothing. Let's face it, unless John Flaherty (or some other announcer) tells us, we really have no way of judging how well a catcher "frames" the ball. We'll only notice it on those few exceptional pitches the announcers points out - and they make a point of mentioning it with Molina. Is that because he's legitimately better, or is it just because it's part of the Molina story line? I have no idea. How much of a difference does it actually make? I have no idea about that, either.

And I don't think anyone here really knows any better than I do. Lots of assertions, but no facts.

Isn't this fairly obvious? none of us are experts, we're only going by what we see and hear. Not sure where you were going with this one.


Like Molina's?

My concern is that Yankee fans think Molina is some kind of .313 hitter because that his what he hit last year when he was traded for. But because he did that, I feel like half the people here think he is capable of that kind of production. He isn't.

Abysmal is Wil Nieves. Again, I fail to see why the offense of a guy (who's main asset isn't in his bat) is so important, especially on this team.

Yankees47
06-16-08, 11:44 PM
I like Moeller, I really do. Last year I would have killed to have a guy like him as a backup catcher and I would like to keep him around as long as we possibly can but Molina calls a great game, is a very good defensive catcher and has an absoulte gun behind the plate. Not a good arm..a fricking (mod) bazooka. But yes I do see where you are coming from I do really like Chad and he is a much better hitter

groovitude
06-17-08, 01:46 AM
You're totally missing the point. It's not about the first twenty ABs, it's about the incredibly small sample size.Neither one of them has a particularly large sample size; 134 PA and 67 PA aren't a whole heck of a lot. (To put this in context, Jason Giambi, after his first 135 PA, was batting .181, and sported an OPS almost two hundred points lower than it is now.) If you're worried about small sample size, then I fail to see how excluding one-third of a player's ABs makes things more accurate in your view.

Both of them came out of the gate fairly strong; so if you want to exclude Moeller's best stretch, it only seems to make sense to do the same for Molina, no? My original supposition of removing Molina's first twenty AB wasn't even proportional; 20 AB out of Moeller's 61 is 32.7% percent; that'd be Molina's first 42 AB. That'd change his line to .184 / .217 / .241. His first 42 AB featured more than half of his twelve doubles on the season; and he hit .364 through his first 33 AB.

But isolating that 33% and removing it doesn't make any sense. It compounds the sample size issue that you're trying to address as the problem. It seems a little like telling me my tire has a puncture, then shooting it with a nail gun and telling me that it'll help.


I'd also like to add that Moeller's career OBP being higher can probably almost directly be attributed to hitting in the national league, in front of the pitcher his whole career.Chad Moeller's career AL OBP: .290.
Chad Moeller's career NL OBP: .287.

Chad Moeller's career AL ISO-D: .0623.
Chad Moeller's career NL ISO-D: .0616.


It's not really strange if you look at it in the context of what I was pondering... that occasionally the pitchers nervous and crossed him up. I can't say for certain, obviously, but it seems like two of those passed balls, those of Hughes and Kennedy, could be chalked up to the pitcher being nervous and misreading what Molina was calling for. Or I could be wrong. I really don't know, and I'm not going back and looking at video. It's just something that sticks out in my mind as a possibility. In any event, when you look at the totality of the pitching staff it seems like the like working with Molina.I don't see where a different angle on this situation comes in. Please excuse me if I'm overlooking something very obvious.

If Molina is so good at handling a pitcher, and if the pitching staff feels very comfortable with him, why would they get sufficiently nervous under his guidance to misread his signs so significantly that he is unable to hold onto it? If it happened once or twice, that's one thing; but as we've been saying, he's matched his career-high on passed balls so far this year in half as many innings.

You can chalk it up to nervousness, if you like, but keeping the pitcher focused is part of the catcher's job to some degree. (Out of curiousity, are you basing your guesses on Hughes and Kennedy on any other evidence beyond their rookie status and their struggles so far this year? I'm not passing judgment on your supposition; I'm genuinely curious, especially as you left out the two passed balls while catching Chamberlain, who is also a rookie.)

Similarly, what are you basing your assertion about the pitching staff's preference of Molina on? The ERA numbers, testimonials from the staff, or something else? I've heard that they like working with Molina, but whether or not they prefer him over Moeller is another matter.

On a related note, I'm trying to think of a good way to compare each catcher's numbers with their pitchers compared to how they've pitched overall. I haven't checked any logs intensively or anything; but it could be very well possible that the pitchers' ERA while Molina is catching could be chalked up to the pitchers he's catching. As someone mentioned, he has been catching Mussina almost exclusively, and Moose more or less calls his own game. It'd be more accurate, I think, to see that rather than just aggregate numbers. Anyone who thinks of anything, please post your ideas. I'd be happy to do the number crunching.

themgmt
06-17-08, 08:35 AM
Chad Moeller's career AL OBP: .290.
Chad Moeller's career NL OBP: .287.



Moeller had 1 season in the AL, he batted .211 with a .261 OBP. The numbers this year severely skew the already small sample size. The vast majority of his career has been in the NL. If you want to go that route, prior to this year's hot streak, his career AL OBP was .261, much worse than Molina's OBP and barely above Molina's BA.

SSS

I never said anything about taking out any stretch of ABs. 60 ABs in someone's 10th+ year in the major leagues will not out weigh the 1200 ABs before that show he is a poor hitter with a horrible BA and an OBP not much different than Molinas.

groovitude
06-17-08, 07:06 PM
Moeller had 1 season in the AL, he batted .211 with a .261 OBP. The numbers this year severely skew the already small sample size. The vast majority of his career has been in the NL. If you want to go that route, prior to this year's hot streak, his career AL OBP was .261, much worse than Molina's OBP and barely above Molina's BA.

SSSI am aware it's a small sample size; but it's what we have to work with, and I was showing you what numbers we have.

It doesn't change that you're once again compounding a problem that you're pointing out. By telling me that the numbers from this year shouldn't be looked at (telling me his career AL OBP was .261) because they skew things, you're making the sample size for his AL career even smaller than it already is.

Perhaps his AL numbers are thrown off by the fact that the season in question was his rookie year. Perhaps it's not skewing so much as merely adding to the data set when you consider this year is about 1/3rd of his AL sample.


I never said anything about taking out any stretch of ABs. 60 ABs in someone's 10th+ year in the major leagues will not out weigh the 1200 ABs before that show he is a poor hitter with a horrible BA and an OBP not much different than Molinas.I stand corrected: the original post in question was the following:
Also, people are placing too much weight on his first twenty ABs... since then (46 PA) he's hit .220/.304/.293.Your defense of it was what prompted my response. Regardless, I think my counterargument still stands.

I won't dispute that his career numbers are not significantly better than Jose Molina's; but a player's numbers do vary from year to year. Given that both of them have similar career numbers, the next logical step in ranking them would be to evaluate how they are doing so far this year. Thereby, you give the edge offensively to Moeller.

CT-Yankee
06-17-08, 10:28 PM
OK NYDC, I bought your argument and I voted for Moeller. I like his business approach behind the plate and he seems like he could get a key hit when needed. Not necessarily high avg but I like him all around more than Molina...but I don't mind Molina either. The big question to me is, who is better handling the pitchers, which we can't answer for sure. Funny thing is, Posada has had numerous problems over the years with various pitchers.

bigjf
06-17-08, 11:26 PM
According to Abraham, Cash says they could go with 3 catchers for the rest of the year.

But I'd vote for Molina.

themgmt
06-17-08, 11:47 PM
That would be incredibly stupid. If Posada shows he is fine, having 2 slow RH catchers who can't hit on the bench is pointless. Even worse, neither of them can play another position. I'd rather have one Pinch Runner pr extra fielder on the bench, even if he can't hit for his life.

bigjf
06-18-08, 12:25 AM
That would be incredibly stupid. If Posada shows he is fine, having 2 slow RH catchers who can't hit on the bench is pointless. Even worse, neither of them can play another position. I'd rather have one Pinch Runner pr extra fielder on the bench, even if he can't hit for his life.

I agree, but I guess they want to make absolutely sure Posada is going to be ok, especially considering he is going to get surgery in the off-season.

NYDCYankee
06-18-08, 02:33 AM
That would be incredibly stupid. If Posada shows he is fine, having 2 slow RH catchers who can't hit on the bench is pointless. Even worse, neither of them can play another position. I'd rather have one Pinch Runner pr extra fielder on the bench, even if he can't hit for his life.

We agree on something.

Toaderly
06-18-08, 07:06 AM
I had to flip a coin - Molina won. Overall, I think Molina's MLB experience and his command behind the plate outweighs that of Moeller's.

primetime714
06-18-08, 04:12 PM
According to Abraham, Cash says they could go with 3 catchers for the rest of the year.

I think that's definitely the right move until we need Moellers spot for someone else. Or until someone else in the minor leagues gives us reason to cut Moeller.

It may be redundant, but after interleague play the back end of our bench is not going to see much action anyway. The only time we'll likely ever pinch hit is when Jorge doesn't start the game, in which case it might be nice (not necessary but nice) to have a 3rd C.

NYDCYankee
06-19-08, 04:46 PM
I was half asleep when it happened, but did Molina cough up another pass ball today, that nearly led to a run?

bigjf
06-19-08, 05:31 PM
I was half asleep when it happened, but did Molina cough up another pass ball today, that nearly led to a run?

Joba channeled his old catching days and made up for it! ;)

groovitude
06-19-08, 05:39 PM
I was half asleep when it happened, but did Molina cough up another pass ball today, that nearly led to a run?It was not scored as a passed ball or a wild pitch.

At any rate, it looks like Molina has some difficulty with Chamberlain; he probably should've gotten a career high sixth passed ball today -- and three of those have been while catching Joba. That would've been 3 PB in 67 PA, or a passed ball every twenty-two batters faced.

Yankee Tripper
06-19-08, 05:55 PM
According to Abraham, Cash says they could go with 3 catchers for the rest of the year.

But I'd vote for Molina.
Moronic. What is the word on Cervelli is he close to returning to AAA. I realize he's not MLB ready but he would be a passable enough option to store in the minors as insurance that we wouldn't need to essentially waste a roster spot at the big league level. No?

themgmt
06-20-08, 08:09 PM
Molina took a fastball away down by his ankles and threw a bullet over the bag that hit Cano on the run. Maybe 5 starting catchers in baseball can make that play that well.

Cheesyhoboe
06-20-08, 08:12 PM
We don't need our backup catcher to be an offensive demon. Moeller has a terrible arm, I guarantee that whenever we start him in the future runners will be running on him like crazy.

groovitude
06-20-08, 09:00 PM
We don't need our backup catcher to be an offensive demon. Moeller has a terrible arm, I guarantee that whenever we start him in the future runners will be running on him like crazy.That brought up a really interesting point; if we have all these numbers, opposing ballclubs certainly should, and therefore should probably be working to exploit a weak arm.

So I checked how many times runners run on Moeller and Molina. Runners go on Moeller once every 8 innings, and on Molina once every 8.3 innings.

The league average is actually once every 10.3 innings. I was really surprised -- especially since Molina boasts the second-best CS% for catchers over 200 innings (Miguel Olivo leads with a 53.8% CS% in 207 innings) and best over 300 innings caught.

themgmt
06-20-08, 09:06 PM
I'd be interested to see what the average of all the pitchers they have caught is...I would think runners run on pitchers first, catchers second, situation 3rd. Interesting though.

parkerstrong
06-20-08, 09:30 PM
Look at the numbers. Why is Molina so great a backup catcher?

How is he better than Moeller?

His name is Molina....thats why he is better lol

DJ27
06-21-08, 09:04 PM
Molina, no question about it.

groovitude
06-22-08, 01:42 AM
I'd be interested to see what the average of all the pitchers they have caught is...I would think runners run on pitchers first, catchers second, situation 3rd. Interesting though.First off -- thanks so much for bouncing ideas back and forth. Rather than just barking at each other from our separate sides of the debate, we're getting into some pretty interesting numbers that we would never have bothered to investigate if it weren't for some intriguing discourse. Props.

Second -- fortunately, Hardball Times does give pitcher's SB/CS numbers (I couldn't find them at B-R or The Baseball Cube). I ran the numbers on all of the pitchers, and some of this stuff is absolutely bizarre, to be honest. Here's a table of the data -- I made up headings for some of them. ATT is attempts at a stolen base, or SB + CS. IP/ATT is innings pitched per attempt -- it's exactly like the stats I'd given about Moeller and Molina. A IP/ATT of 5.25 (Chamberlain's) means that they attempt to steal on him once every 5.25 innings.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll148/lolyanks/runningtable.gif

Does anything strike you particularly weird about this? I can see a few things -- like runners attempting to steal more than twice as often on Joba Chamberlain and the threat of his 98 MPH heat than they do on Edwar Ramirez and his change-up. Same thing goes for Farnsworth -- what is he doing near the top of the list?

Here's a list of all their CS% percentages as well:

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll148/lolyanks/runningtable2.gif

NYDCYankee
06-29-08, 03:34 PM
Molina is killing this team on both sides of the ball.

bigjf
06-29-08, 11:10 PM
Molina is killing this team on both sides of the ball.

Agreed. He's been surprisingly bad lately with the glove, but his arm is still terrific.

themgmt
06-30-08, 11:33 AM
he's got the yips, it will pass..no pun intended

JL25and3
06-30-08, 11:37 AM
At this point, I honestly don't care if it's Moeller or Molina. For heaven's sake, just pick one and be done with it. Carrying both for this long is ridiculous.

YASS
06-30-08, 11:50 AM
At this point, I honestly don't care if it's Moeller or Molina. For heaven's sake, just pick one and be done with it. Carrying both for this long is ridiculous.

Fully agree. I could see keeping three for a couple of weeks just to see how Posada is going to hold up, but it's gone way beyond that now.

Is this a consequence of having an ex-catcher for a manager?

primetime714
06-30-08, 12:39 PM
Fully agree. I could see keeping three for a couple of weeks just to see how Posada is going to hold up, but it's gone way beyond that now.

Is this a consequence of having an ex-catcher for a manager?

Totally disagree. We don't have anyone more valuable to take Moeller's spot. No one at AAA other than Gardner who is here now would be better at the plate than Moeller. Maybe Miranda but we don't need another lefty bat. Carson is a possibility, but at best he is a minor offensive upgrade and provides little defensively.

With Matsui out we can DH Posada a lot more and still have a backup catcher. In an emergency Moeller can also play 3B or 1B.

If we had a better player that deserved his spot more than Moeller I'd be all for it. However people are hung up on the fact that we're keeping 3 catchers without thinking about whether the guy who would replace one of them is better or more valuable to this team.

Plus in the event of another injury we'd really be kicking ourselves if we let Moeller go when we didn't really need the roster spot for someone else.

YASS
06-30-08, 12:44 PM
Totally disagree. We don't have anyone more valuable to take Moeller's spot. No one at AAA other than Gardner who is here now would be better at the plate than Moeller. Maybe Miranda but we don't need another lefty bat. Carson is a possibility, but at best he is a minor offensive upgrade and provides little defensively.

With Matsui out we can DH Posada a lot more and still have a backup catcher. In an emergency Moeller can also play 3B or 1B.

If we had a better player that deserved his spot more than Moeller I'd be all for it. However people are hung up on the fact that we're keeping 3 catchers without thinking about whether the guy who would replace one of them is better or more valuable to this team.

Plus in the event of another injury we'd really be kicking ourselves if we let Moeller go when we didn't really need the roster spot for someone else.
Even the thought of frequently DHing Posada doesn't justify a third catcher, IMO. If Molina catches, his backup is standing on 1B.

I seriously can't imagine needing a third catcher at any time.

JL25and3
06-30-08, 01:35 PM
Even the thought of frequently DHing Posada doesn't justify a third catcher, IMO. If Molina catches, his backup is standing on 1B.

I seriously can't imagine needing a third catcher at any time.I like having a third catcher on the roster, but it should be an emergency catcher, not a catcher-only.

YASS
06-30-08, 01:40 PM
I like having a third catcher on the roster, but it should be an emergency catcher, not a catcher-only.
If you've got another guy on the roster somewhere who can catch on the occasion of a dire emergency, more power to you. That's a nice thing to have. In fact, in a dire emergency, just about anyone can put on the tools of ignorance and pretend to be a catcher for a few innings.

But dedicating an entire roster spot to a third catcher doesn't make any sense at all to me.

primetime714
06-30-08, 04:54 PM
Even the thought of frequently DHing Posada doesn't justify a third catcher, IMO. If Molina catches, his backup is standing on 1B.

I seriously can't imagine needing a third catcher at any time.

You're still generalizing your argument off the premise that keeping 3 catchers almost never makes sense and while I agree with that premise who do you replace Moeller with on the roster?

The thing is I don't even feel like Moeller is the least valuable guy on our 25-man roster. I'd rather have him here than Alberto Gonzalez who is a defensive replacement for positional players that rarely are replaced and is also behind Betemit as the utility INF. Some might say that there is no reason to have 2 utility INF's in the same regard as 3 C's.

The fact of the matter is we don't have anyone good enough to justify DFAing Moeller that's why it makes no sense to do so. When that changes by all means forget the 3rd C, but I'm not DFAing Moeller to bring back Shelly Duncan or Justin Christian or to keep Alberto Gonzalez up here.

YASS
06-30-08, 05:01 PM
You're still generalizing your argument off the premise that keeping 3 catchers almost never makes sense and while I agree with that premise who do you replace Moeller with on the roster?

The thing is I don't even feel like Moeller is the least valuable guy on our 25-man roster. I'd rather have him here than Alberto Gonzalez who is a defensive replacement for positional players that rarely are replaced and is also behind Betemit as the utility INF. Some might say that there is no reason to have 2 utility INF's in the same regard as 3 C's.

The fact of the matter is we don't have anyone good enough to justify DFAing Moeller that's why it makes no sense to do so. When that changes by all means forget the 3rd C, but I'm not DFAing Moeller to bring back Shelly Duncan or Justin Christian or to keep Alberto Gonzalez up here.
I think Christian has more value than Moeller, and I think many would agree that one reserve infielder doesn't provide enough protection in the case of injury. Besides, Gonzalez is a guy who you can reasonably use as a late-inning defensive replacement; Betemit is not. I don't agree that Moeller has more value on the roster than these guys.

Anyway, I think DFAing Moeller is a very low risk move; there's very little risk he'd be claimed. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

27IsNext
06-30-08, 05:03 PM
I think Christian has more value than Moeller, and I think many would agree that one reserve infielder doesn't provide enough protection in the case of injury. Besides, Gonzalez is a guy who you can reasonably use as a late-inning defensive replacement; Betemit is not. I don't agree that Moeller has more value on the roster than these guys.

Anyway, I think DFAing Moeller is a very low risk move; there's very little risk he'd be claimed. I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Christian does have more value than Moeller at this point. I can understand three catchers when Posada first came back, but why still? Christian has defensive flexibility, prowess and can make things happen on the base paths. (Cue Tony Womack reference.)

I'd like Betemit to be the everyday DH while Matsui is out. Start Gardner and sit Melky.

NYDCYankee
07-04-08, 04:49 PM
I can't take him anymore.

themgmt
07-04-08, 06:38 PM
I can't take him anymore.
Yeah 3 for 3 CS is painful to watch

shadyridr
07-09-08, 10:46 AM
Career CS percentages aren't close, you're right; I would like to point out, though, that Molina's CS% has dropped consistently over the past few seasons and has been fluctuating between being just over and just below last year's % so far. On the 6th, when we first started debating this, Moeller actually had a better CS% on the year than Molina did.

At any rate, Molina and Moeller are about on par with each other this year in terms of CS%.



How bout now?

BRNXBMRS
07-09-08, 11:58 AM
Is Moeller still on the team?

-tz
07-10-08, 01:29 AM
Is Moeller still on the team?More importantly, is Molina now our catcher? :confused:

ThePinStripes
07-10-08, 02:09 AM
More importantly, is Molina now our catcher? :confused:

Jorge clearly can't be it. Every single, walk and HBP is now a RISP.

marshcat
07-10-08, 08:52 AM
More importantly, is Molina now our catcher? :confused:

Yes. He is.

bigjf
07-10-08, 05:26 PM
Is Moeller still on the team?

I gotta figure the Yanks are concerned with Posada's throwing and don't want to stick him behind the plate. Now with Matsui and Damon on the DL, they can easily do that by putting him in the DH, so I understand keeping Moeller around in case something happens to Molina. But, if they stick Posada behind the plate again or if they would do so once Damon or Matsui comes off the DL, I think they should let Moeller go or trade him if they can. He's a capable catcher, but other than that he's serving no real purpose to the team other than to hog up a roster spot.

Yankee Tripper
07-21-08, 04:41 PM
Looks like Molina & Moller will be on the team for the long haul.

JDPNYY
07-21-08, 05:59 PM
I'd rotate them every other game.