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DaSh 1s
06-09-08, 11:53 AM
I couldn't post this in the Hot Stove but:


Jun 9 The Chicago Tribune's Phil Rogers reports Seattle Mariners SP Erik Bedard could be shopped at the trading deadline.


As much as he is struggling now, I fully expect him to rebound. The Mariners are the worst team in baseball, are they getting desparate?

Hellsing
06-09-08, 12:13 PM
Does Berdard have any relation to Eric Bedard?

CallOfTheCrow
06-09-08, 01:04 PM
Does Berdard have any relation to Eric Bedard?

Or Erik Bedard?

Hellsing
06-09-08, 01:12 PM
Or Erik Bedard?

ouch...(WHO SPELLS ERIC WITH A K?) Come on.

I am not going to edit that post because it's comedy gold.

YanksFan1992
06-09-08, 05:03 PM
The Mariners front office is dreadful, so if we can get him for a good price (which shouldn't be hard knowing Bavasi), I would be all for it.

And by good price I mean very good, not just decent (I don't really have a package that comes to mind though).

Jumpman_DJ
06-09-08, 08:14 PM
ouch...(WHO SPELLS ERIC WITH A K?) Come on.

I am not going to edit that post because it's comedy gold.

Actually i do, Erik is my first name, its scandinavian Thank you very much!:P

webassign
06-09-08, 08:43 PM
I think for the amount of prospects they gave up for him, they have to stick with him long-term.

YanksFan1992
06-09-08, 09:03 PM
I think for the amount of prospects they gave up for him, they have to stick with him long-term.

I really don't think they will.

He doesn't like Seattle, Seattle doesn't like him, and he seems to be acting out (although that might just be his personality).

ARoDfan4life
06-09-08, 09:07 PM
Expect him to go to Philly.

NYYDragoon
06-09-08, 09:18 PM
Although I don't see it happening, how funny would it be if he came to the Yanks. The O's dealt him out of the division for a reason, and it would be incredibly ironic if he returned to it.

JavyVazquezIsSick
06-09-08, 09:30 PM
Or Erik Bedard?

:lol: Owned.

primetime714
06-09-08, 09:30 PM
From what I've heard Bedard really just doesn't care that much about baseball. His heart isn't in the sport at all and he basically just plays for the pay check. He isn't a good locker room influence.

Still if Seattle wants to give up on him for a bargain price I wouldn't hesitate. He is just too talented to ignore.

cherrygarcia510
06-09-08, 09:44 PM
Bedard has much more passion for watchin hockey than actually playing baseball.....its a shame he has the talent he does

ArodMVP217
06-09-08, 11:37 PM
is it true that he hates teh media

teknetic
06-09-08, 11:39 PM
Hasn't he said he wants to play for Toronto? if Burnett opts out, I can see it being a possibilty..and that makes me wet in the pants.

groovitude
06-10-08, 12:34 AM
Actually i do, Erik is my first name, its scandinavian Thank you very much!:P
I considered posting this exact post myself, but decided against it. Represent, homey!

In other news -- I really don't expect to see Mr. Bedard in pinstripes, and considering his reported lack of passion for the game, wouldn't want him in my clubhouse. The ability is pretty, but we're well-equipped otherwise.

montrealer
06-10-08, 06:42 AM
Yeah........Rumour is he`s going to the Maple Leafs.........

cajunyankee
06-10-08, 09:12 AM
From what I've heard Bedard really just doesn't care that much about baseball. His heart isn't in the sport at all and he basically just plays for the pay check. He isn't a good locker room influence.
Psssttt....he also speeds in school zones, stuffs firecrackers in frogs' mouths, and never sends mother's day cards.
If you're too lazy to find an actual quote from either the player (lack of passion) or a teammate/coach (locker room influence), at least post a link citing a reputable scribe speculating online or in the press.
Within two pages of other posters regurgitating this rumor, Bedard's Lack Of Desire will be an accepted 'fact' here.

Abe Frohman
06-10-08, 09:21 AM
It would be beyond amazing if we could get Bedard. Maybe his lack of

passion is due to the fact that his team is abysmal ? i cant see Bedard

coming here and pitching with no heart.

O'Neill's 3b + E
06-10-08, 09:25 AM
So what does one offer for him?

A deal built around Jackson maybe?

Bleacher_Creature
06-10-08, 09:39 AM
So what does one offer for him?

A deal built around Jackson maybe?

I love to get him, as long as we could sign him to a long term deal, but if it's a rental I'd rather not. It's probably going to take players like Melky & Kennedy + an A prospect, maybe even more.

O'Neill's 3b + E
06-10-08, 09:46 AM
I love to get him, as long as we could sign him to a long term deal, but if it's a rental I'd rather not. It's probably going to take players like Melky & Kennedy + an A prospect, maybe even more.

We can not forget what the M's gave up to get him. Certainly the fact that we're 1/3 of the way through the season changes his value a bit, but Baltimore got Adam Jones for him and Adam Jones would have been a top 10 prospect in all of baseball had he missed a hand full of PAs last season.

Bleacher_Creature
06-10-08, 09:57 AM
We can not forget what the M's gave up to get him. Certainly the fact that we're 1/3 of the way through the season changes his value a bit, but Baltimore got Adam Jones for him and Adam Jones would have been a top 10 prospect in all of baseball had he missed a hand full of PAs last season.

I agree, it will be expensive to get him. Although I can't see the Yankees holding on to Hughes in the Santana trade and sending him to the Mariners for Bedard.

primetime714
06-10-08, 10:16 AM
Psssttt....he also speeds in school zones, stuffs firecrackers in frogs' mouths, and never sends mother's day cards.
If you're too lazy to find an actual quote from either the player (lack of passion) or a teammate/coach (locker room influence), at least post a link citing a reputable scribe speculating online or in the press.
Within two pages of other posters regurgitating this rumor, Bedard's Lack Of Desire will be an accepted 'fact' here.

Pssttt its a message board I'm not writing for a newspaper here I don't have to cite my sources. Chill out. If you wanted to know where I heard this you could've simply asked. The announcers were discussing this during his start against us. They said that talk within the Mariner organization is that they were dissapointed in Bedard as he showed little passion for the sport. I don't have a specific quote or a written source for this because it would be incredibly stupid for the Mariners to come out and say we're dissapponited in this guy especially if they are thinking about trading him. It would also be foolish for Bedard to say anything publicly suggesting this as he doesn't want to decrease the amount of money he'll get in his next contract. It is a rumor there is no documented source to confirm it only rumblings. Take it for what you will. I never said you had to buy it, that's just what I heard while watching that game and think its something the organization should take into account if they consider dealing for him. With that in mind I did say I would have no problem getting Bedard if he came at a bargain price. Although if that happened you'd have to assume something is wrong whether it is this rumor or something else.

primetime714
06-10-08, 10:22 AM
I agree, it will be expensive to get him. Although I can't see the Yankees holding on to Hughes in the Santana trade and sending him to the Mariners for Bedard.

Yea we're not giving up on Hughes this quickly after refusing to deal him for Santana, but the M's aren't going to give Bedard away for free even if the rumors of attitude problems are true.

I'd offer Kennedy, Melky, Tabata, and Marquez. This is roughly in line with what we were offering for Santana, but the value of guys like Kennedy, Tabata, and Marquez has decreased since then. I don't know if Seattle would go for that (probably not), but that's about what I'd offer.

effdamets
06-10-08, 10:29 AM
Yea we're not giving up on Hughes this quickly after refusing to deal him for Santana, but the M's aren't going to give Bedard away for free even if the rumors of attitude problems are true.

I'd offer Kennedy, Melky, Tabata, and Marquez. This is roughly in line with what we were offering for Santana, but the value of guys like Kennedy, Tabata, and Marquez has decreased since then. I don't know if Seattle would go for that (probably not), but that's about what I'd offer.
If I were the Yankees, I wouldn't offer something comparable to what they gave up.
They f*cked up by giving away so much and the guy hasn't performed for them.
Make them take the hit.

This, of course, is all predicated on the Mariners really wanting to deal him away.

O'Neill's 3b + E
06-10-08, 10:42 AM
If I were the Yankees, I wouldn't offer something comparable to what they gave up.
They f*cked up by giving away so much and the guy hasn't performed for them.
Make them take the hit.

This, of course, is all predicated on the Mariners really wanting to deal him away.

That's not really how it works. They traded a ton for Bedard. Since then, Bedards value has likely gone down a little, but not by much. He's healthy and his peripherals are good. If the Mariners deal him, they're going to want a list talent back.

I think it's safe to assume that if they don't trade him, they'll offer him arb and pick up 2 draft picks for their trouble so while losing Jones and Sherrill is a hit, if they spend enough cash in next years draft they could replace some of the loss.

effdamets
06-10-08, 10:44 AM
That's not really how it works. They traded a ton for Bedard. Since then, Bedards value has likely gone down a little, but not by much. He's healthy and his peripherals are good. If the Mariners deal him, they're going to want a list talent back.

I think it's safe to assume that if they don't trade him, they'll offer him arb and pick up 2 draft picks for their trouble so while losing Jones and Sherrill is a hit, if they spend enough cash in next years draft they could replace some of the loss.
Wait a minute...

If you buy a $100,000 Mercedes and get into a wreck, you can sell it for 100K?

Come on. They guy is underperforming and they are looking to dump the salary.
There is no way the Yankees could give the Mariners what they gave for him.

O'Neill's 3b + E
06-10-08, 10:53 AM
Wait a minute...

If you buy a $100,000 Mercedes and get into a wreck, you can sell it for 100K?

Come on. They guy is underperforming and they are looking to dump the salary.
There is no way the Yankees could give the Mariners what they gave for him.

his numbers are down from last year. I don't think anyone though suspected he'd post a K per nine over ten and a BB per nine under 3 again. He has struggled, but at this point last season his statistics were not that much better. He still has the label as a potential ace. Most teams would likely still consider him a threat in a series

YASS
06-10-08, 10:54 AM
Wait a minute...

If you buy a $100,000 Mercedes and get into a wreck, you can sell it for 100K?

Come on. They guy is underperforming and they are looking to dump the salary.
There is no way the Yankees could give the Mariners what they gave for him.
Bedard is underperforming, but he hasn't been in a "wreck". He's healthy and he's enormously talented. He'll be worth every bit of the cost to acquire him - he's a premium lefty who'll be outperforming Santana before too long.

Also, Bavasi will be able to get a nice haul for him if he's made available at the deadline -- he's a free agent next year, but it shouldn't be hard to arrange a deal contingent on signing him to an extension, and his cost will be somewhere in the perfectly reasonable $11-$14M/year range.

Given Santana's contract and declining numbers, he's worth more in prospects than Santana was, not less.

effdamets
06-10-08, 10:58 AM
Bedard is underperforming, but he hasn't been in a "wreck". He's healthy and he's enormously talented. He'll be worth every bit of the cost to acquire him - he's a premium lefty who'll be outperforming Santana before too long.

Also, Bavasi will be able to get a nice haul for him if he's made available at the deadline -- he's a free agent next year, but it shouldn't be hard to arrange a deal contingent on signing him to an extension, and his cost will be somewhere in the perfectly reasonable $11-$14M/year range.

Given Santana's contract and declining numbers, he's worth more in prospects than Santana was, not less.
While I understand all this logic, I'll stick to my idea of getting him (again, if he's available) for less than Seattle paid for him. Otherwise, I would walk away from the deal.

For what it is worth, I like Bedard as a pitcher.

O'Neill's 3b + E
06-10-08, 11:06 AM
Bedard is underperforming, but he hasn't been in a "wreck". He's healthy and he's enormously talented. He'll be worth every bit of the cost to acquire him - he's a premium lefty who'll be outperforming Santana before too long.

Also, Bavasi will be able to get a nice haul for him if he's made available at the deadline -- he's a free agent next year, but it shouldn't be hard to arrange a deal contingent on signing him to an extension, and his cost will be somewhere in the perfectly reasonable $11-$14M/year range.

Given Santana's contract and declining numbers, he's worth more in prospects than Santana was, not less.

I love Bedard but I don't agree with the last comment. Bedard's had trouble staying healthy for a while now. Santana on the other hand has a track record of being able to pitcher 200 innings a year, I'm not so sure about Bedard.

EffdaMets, I suspect you're correct in that any team who trades for Bedard will likely pay a lot less to get him. Adam Jones is an elite prospect, not to mention Sherrill, Butler, Tillman and Mickolio all having varying amounts of value themselves.

primetime714
06-10-08, 11:14 AM
If I were the Yankees, I wouldn't offer something comparable to what they gave up.
They f*cked up by giving away so much and the guy hasn't performed for them.
Make them take the hit.

This, of course, is all predicated on the Mariners really wanting to deal him away.

I don't know is that really that close to what they gave up? I thought it was at least a bit less especially when you consider the stocks of 3 of those guys (Kennedy, Tabata, Marquez) have been falling.

Hellsing
06-10-08, 11:44 AM
If the Yankees could grab ERIK BEDARD (or even Eric Berdard :P) for Melky, IPK, & Marquez I would be shocked and delighted.

I doubt they would go for that. It will probably cost at least 1 High ceiling prospect.

JfromJersey
06-10-08, 12:07 PM
Would you give up Hughes in a package to get him, because that's who the Mariners would most likely ask for?

Hellsing
06-10-08, 12:28 PM
Would you give up Hughes in a package to get him, because that's who the Mariners would most likely ask for?

I wouldn't give up Hughes to save my mother from being abducted by Aliens.

So..no.

primetime714
06-10-08, 12:29 PM
Would you give up Hughes in a package to get him, because that's who the Mariners would most likely ask for?

Nope. Maybe if it was straight up for Hughes, but not in a package including him which is what they would want.

knickfan23
06-10-08, 12:34 PM
I'll put it like this...

If Bedard were on the Yankees this year, not only would the they make the playoffs (they probably will even if he's not on the team) but they would be even up with Boston to make the World Series.

When I get a chance later today, I'll try and breakdown why he would be a great addition if he were really available.

effdamets
06-10-08, 12:35 PM
I'll put it like this...

If Bedard were on the Yankees this year, not only would the they make the playoffs (they probably will even if he's not on the team) but they would be even up with Boston to make the World Series.

When I get a chance later today, I'll try an breakdown why he would a great addition if he were really available.
I'm very, very interested in seeing this breakdown.

JL25and3
06-10-08, 01:32 PM
If the Yankees could grab ERIK BEDARD (or even Eric Berdard :P) for Melky, IPK, & Marquez I would be shocked and delighted.

I doubt they would go for that. It will probably cost at least 1 High ceiling prospect.Bedard's value may have gone down, but not as much as IPK's and Melky's.

JL25and3
06-10-08, 01:33 PM
I wouldn't give up Hughes to save my mother from being abducted by Aliens.

So..no.That's all the aliens needed to know. They're hatching their plans right now.

knickfan23
06-10-08, 05:05 PM
I'm very, very interested in seeing this breakdown.

As I took some time to do the research on him, my off hand opinion of his is that he is Boston killer from watching his starts against him.

Further examination of his numbers against that specific team brings us the following starting from the 2006 season:

8 starts
4-2 record
3.31 ERA

Total line:

46.2 IP, 28 H, 17 ER, 25 BB, 39 K, 1.14 WHIP

Avg IP - 5.7
Avg Pitches Thrown - 102
Avg line vs. BOS - 5.7 IP, 3 H, 2 R, 3 BB, 5 K - 102 pitches

He's probably not going to go 8 innings. But there is very good chance he will give you 7 strong and hand the ball to Mo if you need to.

Here is how Boston hitters fare against him

Lugo 9-34 (.264)
Manny 5-25 (.200)
Ortiz 5-24 (.208)
Youkilis 1-20 (.050)
Varitek 3-19 (.157)
Lowell 2-18 (.111)
Pedroia 1-14 (.071)
Crisp 1-13 (.076)
Drew 0-1 (not to be counted)

That team just doesnt hit this guy or have any good swings at him. It's not that's a small sample of 5 or 6 AB's. When Youk is 1 for 20 against him, something is up. Manny and Ortiz dont hit him well either. Put him in a situation where he can face them and our chances of beating them in a 7 game series go up tremendously. Besides, at 29 he still has about 5 good years left. His love for hockey has not had an adverse effect on his pitching much like CC Sabathia's weight.

That is my argument.

Yankees13
06-10-08, 05:13 PM
I'll be hounded for this, but I'd offer them something centered around Cano.

27IsNext
06-10-08, 06:03 PM
So then, who plays second?

Abe Frohman
06-10-08, 06:21 PM
I'll be hounded for this, but I'd offer them something centered around Cano.

Us trading Cano is like the Mets trading Kazmir ... BIG mistake.

TheJobaRules
06-10-08, 06:49 PM
Us trading Cano is like the Mets trading Kazmir ... BIG mistake.

Yeah, if they were trading Cano for Carlos Silva. ;)

Yankee Tripper
06-10-08, 06:59 PM
I would doubt the yanks deal cano but youneverknow. At any rate it would take some serious talent to pry Beddard from Seattle. They did trade 5 guys for him and they weren't just 5 warm bodies. They probably would not command as good a haul as they sent out but to think B prospects, no matter how many you throw out there in volume will net Beddard is silly.

YanksFan1992
06-10-08, 07:08 PM
I'll be hounded for this, but I'd offer them something centered around Cano.

I doubt that works, as Seattle seems to be rather confident in Jose Lopez who was an All-Star a few years ago and has been decent this year.

Yankees13
06-10-08, 09:33 PM
So then, who plays second?
Betemit.

Yankees13
06-10-08, 09:36 PM
Us trading Cano is like the Mets trading Kazmir ... BIG mistake.
Except we're getting an older version of Kazmir in return. And in what way is Cano comparable to Kazmir. An enigmatic 2nd baseman vs a stud lefty starter?

Yankeesfan811
06-10-08, 09:39 PM
give them phil, joba, ian, melky, and anyoen else they ask for.

I doubt they will pan out anyway.....


JUST KIDDING!

knickfan23
06-17-08, 04:10 PM
Heyman on MMD mentioned that Bedard is in fact on the block.

Bavasi was fired yesterday. The Mariners are in last place and have zero hope for anything this season.

Aquire Bedard, and not only do you get him for this season, but also next season as well before he hits free agency. This would be a 1 1/2 year rental and then you can evaluate from there.

He probably wont get as much publicity as Sabathia, but as I the numbers I mention several posts ago, this guy is proven in the AL East and pitches tremendous against Boston. This would not be an "Oh, we didnt get CC, we only could get Bedard" situation.

I suggest we go this route rather than wait for the Indians to make up their mind. It's not like Seattle is waiting for anything.

MTYankee23
06-17-08, 04:22 PM
I'll be hounded for this, but I'd offer them something centered around Cano.

You shouldn't be. You probably wouldn't have to give up a whole lot else, and in theory, you could still grab Sabathia if he reaches FA. A rotation of Wang, Joba, Sabathia, Bedard, and Hughes would look fairly nice and the cost effectiveness of the 3 home grown players would make the inevitable extension of Bedard and acquistion of CC more palatable.

A combination of Betemit and Gonzalez, while not nearly as potent at Cano, wouldn't leave much to be desired on that end.

primetime714
06-17-08, 04:37 PM
Heyman on MMD mentioned that Bedard is in fact on the block.

Bavasi was fired yesterday. The Mariners are in last place and have zero hope for anything this season.

Aquire Bedard, and not only do you get him for this season, but also next season as well before he hits free agency. This would be a 1 1/2 year rental and then you can evaluate from there.

He probably wont get as much publicity as Sabathia, but as I the numbers I mention several posts ago, this guy is proven in the AL East and pitches tremendous against Boston. This would not be an "Oh, we didnt get CC, we only could get Bedard" situation.

I suggest we go this route rather than wait for the Indians to make up their mind. It's not like Seattle is waiting for anything.

How much will it cost though? I still wouldn't give up Hughes or Cano for Bedard. If a Kennedy centered package gets it done I'd be on board.

primetime714
06-17-08, 04:39 PM
You shouldn't be. You probably wouldn't have to give up a whole lot else, and in theory, you could still grab Sabathia if he reaches FA. A rotation of Wang, Joba, Sabathia, Bedard, and Hughes would look fairly nice and the cost effectiveness of the 3 home grown players would make the inevitable extension of Bedard and acquistion of CC more palatable.

A combination of Betemit and Gonzalez, while not nearly as potent at Cano, wouldn't leave much to be desired on that end.

I still don't like the idea of trading Cano for anyone other than a young offensive player. Cano is currently our only good offensive player under the age of 32. With the minor leagues focused on pitching as well it would be nice to keep our one good young offensive player.

MTYankee23
06-17-08, 04:41 PM
I still don't like the idea of trading Cano for anyone other than a young offensive player. Cano is currently our only good offensive player under the age of 32. With the minor leagues focused on pitching as well it would be nice to keep our one good young offensive player.

The problem of course being that Cano, even in his good years has been terribly inconsistent, and may never have the plate discipline or power to carry an offense. For me, it wouldn't be a package, it would be a straight up type of thing. But you raise a good point. All of our significant offensive contributors right now are on the wrong side of 30.

YASS
06-17-08, 04:41 PM
How much will it cost though? I still wouldn't give up Hughes or Cano for Bedard. If a Kennedy centered package gets it done I'd be on board.
After the big package they sent to Baltimore to acquire him, I don't think Seattle could face its fans if they don't get an impact player back for him. IPK is not looking very much like an impact player right now. If he's the centerpiece of the Yankees' offer, then I would guess Bavasi's replacement does the smart thing and says, "No, thank you."

knickfan23
06-17-08, 05:04 PM
How much will it cost though? I still wouldn't give up Hughes or Cano for Bedard. If a Kennedy centered package gets it done I'd be on board.

PT714, between me and you here.

If you are Seattle, why would even consider Kennedy as a centerpiece for a trade? What did he show in the big leagues this season to give you reason to believe he would be nothing more than a Jeff Suppan-type starter? Was he hurt all season? Something caused his velocity to drop 3-4 MPH, not having an ability to throw strikes, and not showing any mental toughness to grind out starts when he was struggling.

If he was a hard thrower that just had control issues, that would be one thing. Most, if not all teams will take a chance on that. Hell, most teams wont give it up for fear of him "finding it" elsewhere (see: Cabrera, Daniel and Jackson, Edwin). But this guy does not possess that kind of stuff. So if he maxes out, what is his ceiling? #3 or #4 starter? Those guys are trade bait. If he just had a little success this year, I still would have explored this deal if it presented itself. One would point to his September pitching, but I counter that by using the old saying "Never believe what you see in September. (see: Spencer, Shane)"

Personally, I've felt that the best trade is one where you know you are going to have to agonize over doing it, but knowing that the guy you are getting is very good and is entering his prime.

Just my belief.
KF23

Mark19
06-17-08, 05:11 PM
If I'm the new Seattle GM and I'm looking to move Bedard, I'm probably looking to get back what I sent over to the Orioles.

That means they might want a package consisting of Gardner, Kennedy(or Marquez), Tabata and maybe Robertson or Cox.

bigjf
06-17-08, 05:25 PM
If I'm the new Seattle GM and I'm looking to move Bedard, I'm probably looking to get back what I sent over to the Orioles.

That means they might want a package consisting of Gardner, Kennedy(or Marquez), Tabata and maybe Robertson or Cox.

That's a very true point, so I'm just going to quote it to emphasize it.

That, and the Yankees never get a fair asking price on a huge blockbuster trade like that. So it's just not going to happen. The farm system wasn't depleted for Santana, it won't be for Sabathia or Bedard. I don't care if the entire team goes on the DL, the Yanks won't trade away the farm. Get used to it.

The only thing I can see happening is a trade of Tabata (would hate to see it) for someone like Blanton, but I doubt that would happen either because Oakland always asks for the entire farm plus a fresh paint job on the barn.

YASS
06-17-08, 05:51 PM
That's a very true point, so I'm just going to quote it to emphasize it.

That, and the Yankees never get a fair asking price on a huge blockbuster trade like that. So it's just not going to happen. The farm system wasn't depleted for Santana, it won't be for Sabathia or Bedard. I don't care if the entire team goes on the DL, the Yanks won't trade away the farm. Get used to it.

The only thing I can see happening is a trade of Tabata (would hate to see it) for someone like Blanton, but I doubt that would happen either because Oakland always asks for the entire farm plus a fresh paint job on the barn.
Whether or not it's true that there's a "Yankee Tax" (as some have called it), the perception in this case (again, whether the perception reflects reality or not) is that the Yankees will be eager to get a deal done. That's going to make the price go up.

bigjf
06-17-08, 06:01 PM
Whether or not it's true that there's a "Yankee Tax" (as some have called it), the perception in this case (again, whether the perception reflects reality or not) is that the Yankees will be eager to get a deal done. That's going to make the price go up.

Many teams would be eager to get a deal done for a starting pitcher like Bedard. So that argument doesn't really work for me in terms of hiking up the price. The only way to start making these asking prices go down is to stand pat and continue to show that the Yanks aren't going to just keep giving young talent away for big trades like that. If that means someone like Bedard or Sabathia goes to Boston, oh well. Let the Cubs empty out everything they've got in the tank for one of those guys. The Yanks need to develop them and sign them.

Want to sign Freddy Garcia? I'm all for it.

sjb23
06-18-08, 12:24 AM
Here we go. A blockbuster deal that will help both clubs both now and in the future:

Yankees get Erik Bedard and Richie Sexson, contingent on being able to negotiate a new contract with Bedard.

Mariners get Hideki Matsui, Ian Kennedy, Shelley Duncan, and Jeff Marquez.

Let's break it down:

By giving up a brand name like Matsui, the Yankees can hold on to Cano, Hughes and their top prospects. As long as they get Sexson, then Giambi can DH fulltime, Damon can play left field fulltime, and Gardner can become the 4th outfielder. Sexson is a better defensive 1st baseman than Giambi, and I can live with the low BA, the strikeouts and the poor OBP in exchange for the right-handed home run threat he brings to the lineup. Although he'll play an important role in the 2nd half, he's really just a rental since he'll be a free agent at the end of the year. Of course Bedard gives the rotation some much-needed stability this year, and would be a potential lefty replacement for Pettitte next year, should Andy decide to retire. He could be signed to an extension for 5yrs/$50M, which is reasonable, given his health history and the fact he hasn't pitched 200 innings yet in his career. In exchange for giving up his free-agency, he gets security and a chance to win every year. As knickfan23 points out, I like Bedard's numbers against the Red Sox-he could be a real difference-maker this year and in the future. A rotation of Pettitte,Mussina,Bedard,Chamberlain should get the club into the playoffs, regardless of the 5th starter.

Matsui gives the Mariners a proven run producer with some pop from the left side, and coupled with Ichiro and Johjima, the marketing possibilites in Seattle would be very lucrative and alluring to management, I would think.My guess is he'd enjoy playing there,also. Kennedy and Marquez give Seattle two young inexpensive starters and coupled with Felix Hernandez and three veterans (Silva,Washburn and Batista) give the Mariners a very respectable staff,considering they're not going anywhere this season. As they rid themselves of Washburn's and Batista's contracts after 2009, Kennedy and Marquez should be ready to really contribute, and will still be very inexpensive.Duncan is a stop-gap fix at 1st base until the Mariners decide who'll play there in 2009. He'll play everyday,and should be able to contribute some power numbers to replace Sexson. With Ibanez,Beltre,Matsui,and Duncan, the middle of their lineup would be improved and more balanced.

What do you think?

YanksFan1992
06-18-08, 12:29 AM
Here we go. A blockbuster deal that will help both clubs both now and in the future:

Yankees get Erik Bedard and Richie Sexson, contingent on being able to negotiate a new contract with Bedard.

Mariners get Hideki Matsui, Ian Kennedy, Shelley Duncan, and Jeff Marquez.

Let's break it down:

By giving up a brand name like Matsui, the Yankees can hold on to Cano, Hughes and their top prospects. As long as they get Sexson, then Giambi can DH fulltime, Damon can play left field fulltime, and Gardner can become the 4th outfielder. Sexson is a better defensive 1st baseman than Giambi, and I can live with the low BA, the strikeouts and the poor OBP in exchange for the right-handed home run threat he brings to the lineup. Although he'll play an important role in the 2nd half, he's really just a rental since he'll be a free agent at the end of the year. Of course Bedard gives the rotation some much-needed stability this year, and would be a potential lefty replacement for Pettitte next year, should Andy decide to retire. He could be signed to an extension for 5yrs/$50M, which is reasonable, given his health history and the fact he hasn't pitched 200 innings yet in his career. In exchange for giving up his free-agency, he gets security and a chance to win every year, besides being a mainstay in As knickfan23 points out, I like Bedard's numbers against the Red Sox-he could be a real difference-maker this year and in the future. A rotation of Pettitte,Mussina,Bedard,Chamberlain should get the club into the playoffs, regardless of the 5th starter.

Matsui gives the Mariners a proven run producer with some pop from the left side, and coupled with Ichiro and Johjima, the marketing possibilites in Seattle would be very lucrative and alluring to management, I would think.My guess is he'd enjoy playing there,also. Kennedy and Marquez give Seattle two young inexpensive starters and coupled with Felix Hernandez and three veterans (Silva,Washburn and Batista) give the Mariners a very respectable staff,considering they're not going anywhere this season. As they rid themselves of Washburn's and Batista's contracts after 2009, Kennedy and Marquez should be ready to really contribute, and will still be very inexpensive.Duncan is a stop-gap fix at 1st base until the Mariners decide who'll play there in 2009. He'll play everyday,and should be able to contribute some power numbers to replace Sexson. With Ibanez,Beltre,Matsui,and Duncan, the middle of their lineup would be improved and more balanced.

What do you think?

Honestly? I kind of like it, but if you took out Sexson it's a bit uneven in my opinion. However, if we could take out Marquez and Cashman would cut Sexson immediately after we got him I wouldn't mind it.

I know some might disagree but Bedard is a great talent if he's motivated, and by giving up some money we would essentially be trading Duncan who is replaceable, Kennedy who could be darn good but hasn't proven himself (and we have a lot of good pitching prospects) and Matsui who many thought would be gone after this year anyways.

Even if we took out Marquez I bet you Seattle would take that as Matsui would get people in the seats, Duncan could be a good bench player for a team that has little and Kennedy could be a long-time starter for them.

So to answer the question, take away Marquez I would be all for it.

Jace
06-18-08, 12:33 AM
I dont think the Mariners do it. After all they gave up to get Bedard.... they also wouldn't be shedding much salary with Matsui being signed through next year. I doubt they want Shelley Duncan whatsoever. Take Marquez out and put in Horne and you are probably talking- but then do we want to do this deal? It just seems like a big exchange laterally, downwards on offense in the hope that Bedard can pitch better than he has this season

Its interesting, at least

continentalg5
06-18-08, 12:35 AM
I like the trade, but take Sexson out, as he is almost a sure strikeout.

Are you sure your not Cashman? :)

The Dynasty
06-18-08, 07:37 AM
If you have to take Sexson in order to obtain a talent like Bedard, heck, you've gotta do it.

sjb23
06-18-08, 08:18 AM
If you have to take Sexson in order to obtain a talent like Bedard, heck, you've gotta do it.

The main reason I zeroed in on Sexson is because 1)he's a right-handed power threat, which balances the lineup somewhat, 2)he's better defensively than Giambi and allows Jason to DH fulltime, 3)losing Matsui is somewhat offset by his place in the lineup, 4)it frees a spot in the outfield for Brett Gardner, who can come off the bench and pinch-run, as well as give the starting outfielders a rest every now and then, 5)he's a free-agent at the end of the year who doesn't fit into the Mariners' (or the Yankees) future plans, 6) the Yanks can afford to take on his salary for the rest of the year and frees up some money for the Mariners to take on Matsui's contract, 7) the Mariners' lineup would be more balanced with Matsui's left-handed bat in place of Sexson's.

It's not like I really like the guy, but he should be available, and could fit in nicely for the last 80 games or so. If we lose Matsui (in order to obtain Bedard and keep our prospects and Cano), I'd rather Sexson and Gardner be on the roster than Shelley Duncan. A bench consisting of Molina, Gardner, Gonzalez, Betemit could be enough, considering how little the Yanks really depend on their bench.

themgmt
06-18-08, 08:25 AM
The Mariners gave up a lot of players, but not really so much as far as proven talent. They gave up one "ML experienced" pitcher in George Sherrill, and one "ML ready" player in Adam Jones.

Prior to the trade:
Sherrill had a career year, WHIP under 1, 2.37 ERA. He was pretty mediocre in his first 3 years. This year: 23 saves in 26 chances, 3.38 ERA, 1.13 WHIP

Adam Jones only had 139 ABs in 2 years with a .230 BA,.262 OBP, 3 HRs and .625 OPS. This year: .252 BA, .291 OBP, .667 OPS

Prospect Chris Tillman hadn't pitched above A and in 35 starts had a 5.57 ERA

Prospect Tony Butler is a left handed starter who had a 4-7 record, 4.75 ERA, nearly 5 BB/9 and a 1.45 WHIP in 20 games in Low A

Prospect Kameron Mickolio is a right handed reliever who including this year has a 3.06 ERA and 1.3 WHIP in A, AA, AAA




So prior to the trade, none of the prospects besides Mickolio were really performing well. I think the Yankees could easily come up with a comparable package with one good prospect and a couple other decent arms to get Bedard. Especially since they are looking to dump him mid season

themgmt
06-18-08, 08:34 AM
If you had to take Sexson in order to get Bedard, sure you do it. If you have to give up Matsui and have Sexson take his place in the lineup, no way you do it. He is no longer a "RH power threat" He hit 21 HRs last year and is on pace for about the same this year. He's been a .200 BA, sub .300 OBP, sub .700 OPS player the last two years. Matsui has been a .300 BA, .375 OBP, .850 OPS player this whole time in Pinstripes.

primetime714
06-18-08, 08:48 AM
After the big package they sent to Baltimore to acquire him, I don't think Seattle could face its fans if they don't get an impact player back for him. IPK is not looking very much like an impact player right now. If he's the centerpiece of the Yankees' offer, then I would guess Bavasi's replacement does the smart thing and says, "No, thank you."


PT714, between me and you here.

If you are Seattle, why would even consider Kennedy as a centerpiece for a trade? What did he show in the big leagues this season to give you reason to believe he would be nothing more than a Jeff Suppan-type starter? Was he hurt all season? Something caused his velocity to drop 3-4 MPH, not having an ability to throw strikes, and not showing any mental toughness to grind out starts when he was struggling.

If he was a hard thrower that just had control issues, that would be one thing. Most, if not all teams will take a chance on that. Hell, most teams wont give it up for fear of him "finding it" elsewhere (see: Cabrera, Daniel and Jackson, Edwin). But this guy does not possess that kind of stuff. So if he maxes out, what is his ceiling? #3 or #4 starter? Those guys are trade bait. If he just had a little success this year, I still would have explored this deal if it presented itself. One would point to his September pitching, but I counter that by using the old saying "Never believe what you see in September. (see: Spencer, Shane)"

Personally, I've felt that the best trade is one where you know you are going to have to agonize over doing it, but knowing that the guy you are getting is very good and is entering his prime.

Just my belief.
KF23

I agree with both of you on this. Mostly my point was that the Yankees shouldn't deal either Cano or Hughes. I think characterizing Kennedy as the "centerpiece" may have been the wrong way to go about it. If Kennedy was the highest profile player in the package there would be at least one other player that would be pretty close to him or maybe more highly regarded after his recent struggles. My thought was to combine Kennedy and at least one other one of our top 5 prospects. So Kennedy and Horne or Kennedy and Tabata or maybe even Kennedy and Jackson (although I'd try to hold onto Jackson if at all possible). The Mariners need a lot of help and while they'd like to get an Adam Jones type player back they'd probably like to get several ML quality players back instead. Their team is pretty much a mess right now. They have Ichiro, Felix, Morrow, and Putz. Outside of that they don't have a lot of talent. Jeff Clement is a nice prospect. Silva will be a solid starter. Ibanez is good but is a FA after this year. Simply put they need a lot of help everywhere. If they're looking to deal Bedard my guess is rather than looking for that one impact player they'll be looking for a few potential impact players.

For Bedard I'd go as high as Kennedy, Horne, and Tabata. That's a really fair deal for the M's IMO. Adam Jones was really the only good prospect they gave up for Bedard. He may be significantly better than anyone in our package, but the other two prospects are better than anyone else they gave up.

Still I'd try to get it done with intial offers of Kennedy/Horne (they may like Horne more right now), Tabata, Marquez/McCutchen, and one other prospect (maybe a reliever like Cox).

sjb23
06-18-08, 08:52 AM
If you had to take Sexson in order to get Bedard, sure you do it. If you have to give up Matsui and have Sexson take his place in the lineup, no way you do it. He is no longer a "RH power threat" He hit 21 HRs last year and is on pace for about the same this year. He's been a .200 BA, sub .300 OBP, sub .700 OPS player the last two years. Matsui has been a .300 BA, .375 OBP, .850 OPS player this whole time in Pinstripes.

The main reason they give up Matsui is so they can hold on to Cano, Hughes, Jackson,etc.

I wasn't suggesting Sexson could replace Matsui's production - it would somewhat offset Hideki's loss though, and balance a lefty-heavy lineup. Also, he might be more productive in the Yankee lineup than hitting cleanup for the Mariners.

Please look at the bigger picture.

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 08:56 AM
I'm confused as to why Seattle would trade for Hideki Matsui in a deal involving Bedard, when Matsui's contract is up after the '09 season like Bedard's is. Matsui has value to teams that are going to compete in the next two years. Not a team that is going to have to rebuild.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 08:56 AM
For Bedard I'd go as high as Kennedy, Horne, and Tabata. That's a really fair deal for the M's IMO.

Very fair

The Mariners are not going to want Duncan ever. And why would they want Matsui? To add payroll? He certainly is not going to make a difference in the standings for them. They are horrible.

Young high ceiling talent is the only way you pry Berdard. But who is in charge over there now? Do any deals get done with the M's this year due to Bavasi leaving?

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:00 AM
I do think they would want Shelley Duncan. No way he doesn't out perform Richie Sexson if he plays full time. And Sexson's contract is expiring this year, they could get a cost controlled replacement short term while they rebuild


Horne & Marquez
McCutchen
Scott Strickland or Kei Igawa type - Extra Bullpen arm
Shelley Duncan, they need first base/RF production
OF Prospect - Justin Christian/Matt Carson or worst case Gardner. Need a RF short term


I bet that gets it done, maybe have to throw in a guy like Bettances or something as other teams start bidding. I would do it. Get it done Cash

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:01 AM
Very fair

The Mariners are not going to want Duncan ever. And why would they want Matsui? To add payroll? He certainly is not going to make a difference in the standings for them. They are horrible.

Young high ceiling talent is the only way you pry Berdard. But who is in charge over there now? Do any deals get done with the M's this year due to Bavasi leaving?

Young high ceiling talent is the answer, but at this point it's very debatable whether Kennedy, Tabata, and Horne will be considered high ceiling talent outside the Yankees organization. You'd have to hope that the Mariners were high on McAllister, Garcia, or Betances. Of course for all the credit our minor league pitching guru has gotten, a lot of our pitching prospects have ended up with injury problems (to be fair, some were drafted that way).

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:04 AM
I do think they would want Shelley Duncan. No way he doesn't out perform Richie Sexson if he plays full time. And Sexson's contract is expiring this year, they could get a cost controlled replacement


Horne or McCutchen - need someone to step into rotation
Marquez or Kei Igawa - Need someone to step into rotation
Scott Strickland - Extra Bullpen arm
Shelley Duncan, they need first base/RF production
OF Prospect - Justin Christian/Matt Carson or worst case Gardner. Need a RF


I bet that gets it done.

Only if the new GM was trying to suffer the same fate as Bavasi, but quicker.

Horne and Marquez are the only things that could be considered of value, and they'd likely be the 3rd player in a deal like this, not the first or 2nd.

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:04 AM
The main reason they give up Matsui is so they can hold on to Cano, Hughes, Jackson,etc.

I wasn't suggesting Sexson could replace Matsui's production - it would somewhat offset Hideki's loss though, and balance a lefty-heavy lineup. Also, he might be more productive in the Yankee lineup than hitting cleanup for the Mariners.

Please look at the bigger picture.

Shelley Duncan would put up better numbers than Sexson, any RH hitter that can hit .220 would balance the lineup better. Sexson is in a sever decline and strikes out enough for 2 players. If you look at the players Baltimore gave up and their production, they did not give up that much in regards to proven talent. They made up for talent with quantity.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 09:06 AM
The Mariners don't have to trade Bedard this season, so don't expect them to unless the price is absolutely right. They can simply wait until the offseason when every team in the league can dream about contending in 2009 (like they did in 2008).

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:07 AM
Only if the new GM was trying to suffer the same fate as Bavasi, but quicker.

Horne and Marquez are the only things that could be considered of value, and they'd likely be the 3rd player in a deal like this, not the first or 2nd.

They are trying to get rid of Bedard, who's contract expires next year. They gave up 1 of their better prospects who is not performing, 1 reliever, and 3 mediocre pitching prospects. Horne has to be tempting, a 24 year old power arm, who had a great season last year.

Horne and Marquez + 1 or 2 mediocre pitching/relieving prospects and a short term infielder/outfielder gets it done. Maybe have to package another high ceiling arm with it like Brackman or Bettances if another team will be desperate for Bedard at the trade deadline. If they don't trade him at the deadline this year, the price will probably go up after Bedard has another good season.

sjb23
06-18-08, 09:08 AM
I'm confused as to why Seattle would trade for Hideki Matsui in a deal involving Bedard, when Matsui's contract is up after the '09 season like Bedard's is. Matsui has value to teams that are going to compete in the next two years. Not a team that is going to have to rebuild.


The Mariners are not going to want Duncan ever. And why would they want Matsui? To add payroll? He certainly is not going to make a difference in the standings for them. They are horrible.

I wouldn't classify this team as "rebuilding". They were expecting to contend for their division, and may only be a player or two away from improving the weakest part of their club -- their offense. Matsui is an All-Star run producer and gives them a much-needed lefthanded bat with some pop, replacing a right-handed hitter who will be gone after this season. His ethnicity and popularity with Asians, coupled with Ichiro and the Mariners' catcher Johjima give the team a powerful marketing tool both in Seattle and internationally. I doubt money is even an issue for this club. Their payroll tops $115M and their owners are among the richest in all of baseball. Duncan, as I stated earlier, is a stop-gap who replaces Sexson at 1st base for the remainder of this season, and then could be a semi-productive bench player for them in 2009 -- just like most of us were expecting him to be for the Yankees this year.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 09:09 AM
They are trying to dump Bedard, who's contract expires next year. They gave up 1 of their better prospects who was not performing, 1 reliever, and 3 mediocre pitching prospects.

Horne and Marquez + 1 or 2 mediocre pitching/relieving prospects and an infielder/outfielder gets it done.

Sorry man but you're dreaming. They gave up their crown jewel prospect for Bedard...they are not going to trade him now for 50 cents on the dollar.

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:10 AM
The Mariners don't have to trade Bedard this season, so don't expect them to unless the price is absolutely right. They can simply wait until the offseason when every team in the league can dream about contending in 2009 (like they did in 2008).

Exactly. They aren't making a trade to fill slots this year, they're only making a trade if they get an offer from a contending team where they say,"Wow, yeah, we HAVE to do this".

Since he's cost controlled for the next 1.5 years, and will be a Type A FA, a team is certainly going to offer them more than "quantity". The Orioles had to trade their best prospect who was major league ready and a closer with a career ERA+ of 121 in addition to 3 other prospects.

Yankees13
06-18-08, 09:11 AM
If you have to take Sexson in order to obtain a talent like Bedard, heck, you've gotta do it.
It's not a bad idea to take on Sexson in order to keep the price, talent-wise, reasonable. It's much like what the Sox did with Beckett, taking on Lowell (of course since everything they touch turns to gold, Lowell became a big-time contributer for them).

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:13 AM
I wouldn't classify this team as "rebuilding". They were expecting to contend for their division, and may only be a player or two away from improving the weakest part of their club -- their offense. Matsui is an All-Star run producer and gives them a much-needed lefthanded bat with some pop, replacing a right-handed hitter who will be gone after this season. His ethnicity and popularity with Asians, coupled with Ichiro and the Mariners' catcher Johjima give the team a powerful marketing tool both in Seattle and internationally. I doubt money is even an issue for this club. Their payroll tops $115M and their owners are among the richest in all of baseball. Duncan, as I stated earlier, is a stop-gap who replaces Sexson at 1st base for the remainder of this season, and then could be a semi-productive bench player for them in 2009 -- just like most of us were expecting him to be for the Yankees this year.

They were the only ones expecting them to contend. Everyone else saw that they vastly overplayed their run differential, and weren't nearly as close as they thought. They didn't fire their current GM so they could compete now, they fired him so they could bring a new exec in and start over. If they put Bedard on the market, there's going to be a pretty big bidding war because he can help a contending team for in effect, two seasons.

Personally, if they best they could do was Horne and Marquez, they'd be better off letting Bedard pitch and taking the draft picks.

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:14 AM
Exactly. They aren't making a trade to fill slots this year, they're only making a trade if they get an offer from a contending team where they say,"Wow, yeah, we HAVE to do this".

Since he's cost controlled for the next 1.5 years, and will be a Type A FA, a team is certainly going to offer them more than "quantity". The Orioles had to trade their best prospect who was major league ready and a closer with a career ERA+ of 121 in addition to 3 other prospects.

That's the Orioles though. If Bedard is on the block this fast, after giving up what they did to get him, they will take someone like Horne. They traded away an OF Prospect and 4 pitchers for 1 pitcher. That tells me they want pitching in return for Bedard, not so much position players. Of course with a new GM their philosophy might have obviously changed. Give them a ton of arms, but nothing too crazy. If they don't accept, which is possible, don't give up the farm for 1.5 years of a pitcher.

I could see the Cubs giving up everything to get him though

sjb23
06-18-08, 09:16 AM
Shelley Duncan would put up better numbers than Sexson, any RH hitter that can hit .220 would balance the lineup better. Sexson is in a sever decline and strikes out enough for 2 players.

I respectfully say that you are being narrow-minded. Sexson is better, defensively, than Giambi or Duncan, and would only be with the club for the remainder of this season. He poses a threat against left-handed starters and relievers, something the Yanks don't have outside of A-Rod and/or Posada, and something Duncan failed to do this season.

But the main reason to include him in the deal is to 1)obtain Bedard without giving up Cano.Hughes,Jackson,Horne,etc. 2)have Giambi replace Matsui as DH and still fill the hole at 1st base, and 3)allow the Mariners to shed some salary in order to take on Matsui's.

Once again, I ask you to look at the bigger picture.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 09:19 AM
I wouldn't classify this team as "rebuilding". They were expecting to contend for their division, and may only be a player or two away from improving the weakest part of their club -- their offense. Matsui is an All-Star run producer and gives them a much-needed lefthanded bat with some pop, replacing a right-handed hitter who will be gone after this season. His ethnicity and popularity with Asians, coupled with Ichiro and the Mariners' catcher Johjima give the team a powerful marketing tool both in Seattle and internationally. I doubt money is even an issue for this club. Their payroll tops $115M and their owners are among the richest in all of baseball. Duncan, as I stated earlier, is a stop-gap who replaces Sexson at 1st base for the remainder of this season, and then could be a semi-productive bench player for them in 2009 -- just like most of us were expecting him to be for the Yankees this year.

The Mariners are dead last in the AL in every offensive category except BA they are 13th.

Their pitching is in the same boat. They are 20 games under .500

Matsui and Duncan don't change that. Also they don't need a stop gap at first. They will plug in Clement.

They will want pitching and plenty of it.

primetime714
06-18-08, 09:19 AM
Here we go. A blockbuster deal that will help both clubs both now and in the future:

Yankees get Erik Bedard and Richie Sexson, contingent on being able to negotiate a new contract with Bedard.

Mariners get Hideki Matsui, Ian Kennedy, Shelley Duncan, and Jeff Marquez.


Can't see the Yanks trading Matsui or the M's really wanting him. The M's have already given up on this year and next year is a longshot. Matsui is only signed through next year. By trading Bedard they're looking to rebuild and probably want some young offensive players (shelly duncan probably not what they're looking for). I think they'll be targeting at least one of Tabata, Jackson, or Montero in any deal with us.

Adding Sexson to the deal might be a nice Bonus for the M's since I'm sure they'd love to get rid of as much of his salary as the can right now. He might also be a decent right handed power bat off our bench.

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:19 AM
That's the Orioles though. If Bedard is on the block this fast, after giving up what they did to get him, they will take someone like Horne. They traded away an OF Prospect and 4 pitchers for 1 pitcher. That tells me they want pitching in return for Bedard, not so much position players. Of course with a new GM their philosophy might have obviously changed. Give them a ton of arms, but nothing too crazy. If they don't accept, which is possible, don't give up the farm for 1.5 years of a pitcher.

I could see the Cubs giving up everything to get him though

If he's on the block that fast, it means that he has the most value right now, and they're accepting that they have no chance to contend in '08 or '09.

1.5 years of a pitcher is extremely valuable. Especially a 29 year old pitcher who had success in the AL East.

sjb23
06-18-08, 09:24 AM
The Mariners are dead last in the AL in every offensive category except BA they are 13th.

Their pitching is in the same boat. They are 20 games under .500

Matsui and Duncan don't change that. Also they don't need a stop gap at first. They will plug in Clement.

They will want pitching and plenty of it.

Did you forget the deal would include Ian Kennedy and Jeff Marquez (or someone similar, like Karstens, Rasner, or Igawa)? Heck, I'd be willing to part with Kennedy and two of those four. This is the same Kennedy that most of us considered to be semi-untouchable a couple of months ago.

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:32 AM
I respectfully say that you are being narrow-minded. Sexson is better, defensively, than Giambi or Duncan, and would only be with the club for the remainder of this season. He poses a threat against left-handed starters and relievers, something the Yanks don't have outside of A-Rod and/or Posada, and something Duncan failed to do this season.

But the main reason to include him in the deal is to 1)obtain Bedard without giving up Cano.Hughes,Jackson,Horne,etc. 2)have Giambi replace Matsui as DH and still fill the hole at 1st base, and 3)allow the Mariners to shed some salary in order to take on Matsui's.

Once again, I ask you to look at the bigger picture.

I'm not being narrow-minded. Sexson is useless. He does nothing offensively. I could find an all glove guy for league minimum that still has higher OBP than Sexson. Why would I pay 15 million?

Shed Salary to take on Matsui's? Sexson Makes $15 M this year and is done, Matsui Makes 13M this year, and 13 M next year. By the time a trade was made, the Mariners would save maybe 1M this year, but pay another 13M next year. I would take on Sexson's salary if it meant getting Bedard, no question. I would also eat his salary and either DFA him immediately or trade him for anything. I would make no misconceptions that Sexson would contribute anything to the Yankees.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 09:34 AM
Did you forget the deal would include Ian Kennedy and Jeff Marquez (or someone similar, like Karstens, Rasner, or Igawa)? Heck, I'd be willing to part with Kennedy and two of those four. This is the same Kennedy that most of us considered to be semi-untouchable a couple of months ago.

Karstens? Igawa? No way are they going in a deal.

Kennedy,Marquez is a good start.

Washburn,Silva,Bautista have a combined age of 33 and an Era of around 6.00

The M's are going to want young cheap pitchers. I don't see them wanting a AAAA player in Duncan which is what he is showing right now.

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:35 AM
Did you forget the deal would include Ian Kennedy and Jeff Marquez (or someone similar, like Karstens, Rasner, or Igawa)? Heck, I'd be willing to part with Kennedy and two of those four. This is the same Kennedy that most of us considered to be semi-untouchable a couple of months ago.

Kennedy was always touchable in my mind. Marquez is a back of the rotation guy. Karstens and Igawa are junk.

YanksFan1992
06-18-08, 09:38 AM
The main reason I zeroed in on Sexson is because 1)he's a right-handed power threat, which balances the lineup somewhat, 2)he's better defensively than Giambi and allows Jason to DH fulltime, 3)losing Matsui is somewhat offset by his place in the lineup, 4)it frees a spot in the outfield for Brett Gardner, who can come off the bench and pinch-run, as well as give the starting outfielders a rest every now and then, 5)he's a free-agent at the end of the year who doesn't fit into the Mariners' (or the Yankees) future plans, 6) the Yanks can afford to take on his salary for the rest of the year and frees up some money for the Mariners to take on Matsui's contract, 7) the Mariners' lineup would be more balanced with Matsui's left-handed bat in place of Sexson's.

It's not like I really like the guy, but he should be available, and could fit in nicely for the last 80 games or so. If we lose Matsui (in order to obtain Bedard and keep our prospects and Cano), I'd rather Sexson and Gardner be on the roster than Shelley Duncan. A bench consisting of Molina, Gardner, Gonzalez, Betemit could be enough, considering how little the Yanks really depend on their bench.

No trust me you really don't want Sexson. Sure he's okay defensively but he is dreadful (I mean really dreadful) at the plate.

The only reason why he could be included in the deal is that the Mariners would love to be able to get rid of him and not have to pay the rest of his salary, which is the only reason he is still on the team in my opinion.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 09:39 AM
Kennedy was always touchable in my mind. Marquez is a back of the rotation guy. Karstens and Igawa are junk.

You're nasty

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:40 AM
The M's are going to want young cheap pitchers. I don't see them wanting a AAAA player in Duncan which is what he is showing right now.

You don't think they would take Shelley Duncan to get rid of Richie Sexson? 15M vs $400,000 for the next couple years while they are rebuilding. He can take over at 1st until they find their future first baseman, and play in RF in a pinch. And they don't have to pay him anything, even if it was just for this year.

Mariners would do that trade in a heartbeat.

YanksFan1992
06-18-08, 09:42 AM
I'm confused as to why Seattle would trade for Hideki Matsui in a deal involving Bedard, when Matsui's contract is up after the '09 season like Bedard's is. Matsui has value to teams that are going to compete in the next two years. Not a team that is going to have to rebuild.

Well the team has Japanese ownership and if you've gone to a Mariners game one would notice the huge amount of Japanese tourists there. So having Johjima, Matsui and Ichiro at the same time would be great for marketing.

I think Seattle really wants to give up Bedard. He has been dreadful with the media and his teammates and is now refusing to throw more than 100 pitches in a game. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm willing to bet we could get Bedard for less than many expect.

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:43 AM
You're nasty

Haha. Damn you.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 09:46 AM
You don't think they would take Shelley Duncan to get rid of Richie Sexson? 15M vs $400,000 for the next couple years while they are rebuilding. He can take over at 1st until they find their future first baseman, and play in RF in a pinch. And they don't have to pay him anything, even if it was just for this year.

Mariners would do that trade in a heartbeat.

Ok I am not sure what you are proposing.

You want the Yankees to take on Sexson's contract and send them Duncan. We are also sending them who?

MTYankee23
06-18-08, 09:50 AM
Ok I am not sure what you are proposing.

You want the Yankees to take on Sexson's contract and send them Duncan. We are also sending them who?

I could potentially see something along the lines of:

Bedard, Sexson for Kennedy, Tabata, Marquez. Duncan won't have value to the Mariners, I'm sure they'd rather just convert someone from withing. Even then, I'm not sure the Mariners do that, since all 3 have seen their stock drop this season. You could also see teams that value Horne higher than Kennedy, as I do.

themgmt
06-18-08, 09:59 AM
Ok I am not sure what you are proposing.

You want the Yankees to take on Sexson's contract and send them Duncan. We are also sending them who?

This was in regards to you saying they wouldn't take Shelley Duncan in the Bedard deal involving Sexson.


Also note Bedard is making 7 Million this year. They would be shedding $22 Million off their payroll in the rebuilding stage, while also getting Horne, Marquez, McCutchen type pitching prospects along with the other people I stated before. That would be my starting deal, and if other teams drove up the price, I'd add a Betances type

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 10:05 AM
This was in regards to you saying they wouldn't take Shelley Duncan in the Bedard deal involving Sexson.


Also note Bedard is making 7 Million this year. They would be shedding $22 Million off their payroll in the rebuilding stage, while also getting Horne, Marquez, McCutchen type pitching prospects along with the other people I stated before. That would be my starting deal, and if other teams drove up the price, I'd add a Betances type

Half year rates apply to Bedard and Richie. So it's around 11 million they would be shedding.

Duncan has zero value to them. The pitchers you named would definitely interest them.
Here is something I never see happening---Cashman taking on Richie Sexson. He is an offensive black hole and would be a bench player who would only start vs lefty's. That is a ton of dough for a part time player. Add the lux tax and it's getting pretty pricey.

Horne,Kennedy,Marquez,McCutchen are all viable candidates we would still have to throw in a position player most likely an outfielder.

bostonyankeefan
06-18-08, 10:12 AM
Bedard is the type of guy you deal good prospects for. He has proven his ability to pitch well in the A.L. East. He is 29 years old and he is left handed. I would take him, Joba and Andy in a playoff series against any team.

When the Sox dealt for Beckett and Lowell (salary dump), the gave up an MVP candidate and a promising young pitcher. I think that Bedard could be as good as Beckett, and I think that Cash should be thinking about giving up some high level guys such as Tabata, Horne, etc.

themgmt
06-18-08, 10:25 AM
Half year rates apply to Bedard and Richie. So it's around 11 million they would be shedding.

Duncan has zero value to them. The pitchers you named would definitely interest them.
Here is something I never see happening---Cashman taking on Richie Sexson. He is an offensive black hole and would be a bench player who would only start vs lefty's. That is a ton of dough for a part time player. Add the lux tax and it's getting pretty pricey.

Horne,Kennedy,Marquez,McCutchen are all viable candidates we would still have to throw in a position player most likely an outfielder.

Oh no no, that was the other poster that wanted Sexson to contribute. I said I would take him on just to get Bedard. Then I would DFA him immediately. I want nothing to do with him..

But yeah my deal was Horne, Marquez, McCutchen, Duncan (they have nothing at 1b or RF for the year) and then an OF prospect and another arm. I wouldn't give Tabata or Jackson though, Gardner worst case. I would start even lower than Gardner though, see what they would take. If another team upped the ante I would add Betances or another good prospect they were interested in. I wouldn't trade Kennedy now because that would be selling severely low.

knickfan23
06-18-08, 11:09 AM
If he's on the block that fast, it means that he has the most value right now, and they're accepting that they have no chance to contend in '08 or '09.

1.5 years of a pitcher is extremely valuable. Especially a 29 year old pitcher who had success in the AL East.

That's the reason there are the whispers being on the block now. What are their chances of competing for a playoff spot next year? Very small. Add that, if the M's dont trade him, he enters his walk year, on a bad team, with the team now having diminished trade leverage because he is in his walk year.

To be able to use his services for in effect, two seasons makes his value higher than Sabathia because you already know he's not signing an extension and you have to give them good prospects on top of that. Add to it that the Indians are still "in it" to where they hold the prospective team up.

Also, if you happen to look at the two pitchers numbers over the last 2 1/2 years, there is not a big difference between the two. You also have to factor in Bedard having to face the AL East and pitching in Camden Yards which would put him at a disadvantage from the outset.

smckdwn989
06-18-08, 11:15 AM
if the yankees could land Bedard without giving up Hughes, i would sign up for it.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 11:27 AM
There was speculation the M's wanted Coco Crisp. Don't know the validity of that but we have a few centerfielders to offer.

knickfan23
06-18-08, 11:28 AM
Bedard is the type of guy you deal good prospects for. He has proven his ability to pitch well in the A.L. East. He is 29 years old and he is left handed. I would take him, Joba and Andy in a playoff series against any team.

When the Sox dealt for Beckett and Lowell (salary dump), the gave up an MVP candidate and a promising young pitcher. I think that Bedard could be as good as Beckett, and I think that Cash should be thinking about giving up some high level guys such as Tabata, Horne, etc.

Which is why Cashman would not mind doing because he's been able to see Bedard up close in his own division over the last few years. It's not like he is going to be concerned about an "adjustment" to the East, which some pitchers find out. Alot of the "I wonder how" is taken out.

Speaking of "the MVP" candidate the Red Sox gave up, I would be very curious to see what the reaction would be here if the Yanks had such a prospect in their system today and the ability to acquire a #1 starter came along. I have a suspicion that alot of people here would not have made that trade considering that Beckett had never thrown 200 innings or made 30 starts...EVER. And especially after he posted a 5 ERA in his first year. That is why I mention that a trade like this is going to be painful for some to take if it were to ever materialize.

JfromJersey
06-18-08, 11:29 AM
if the yankees could land Bedard without giving up Hughes, i would sign up for it.

Considering the fact that even under normal circumstances teams always seem to ask more from the Yankees than from other teams, why would they change their tune when the Yankees are in desperation mode?

smckdwn989
06-18-08, 11:31 AM
Considering the fact that even under normal circumstances teams always seem to ask more from the Yankees than from other teams, why would they change their tune when the Yankees are in desperation mode?

because the yankees should have enough other prospects to make something work.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 11:33 AM
Which is think Cashman would not mind doing because he's been able to see Bedard up close in his own division over the last few years. It's not like he is going to be concerned about an "adjustment" to the East, which some pitchers find out.

Speaking of "the MVP" candidate the Red Sox gave up, I would be very curious to see what the reaction would be here if the Yanks had such a prospect in their system today and the ability to acquire a #1 starter came along. I have a suspicion that alot of people here would not have made that trade considering that Beckett had never thrown 200 innings or made 30 starts...EVER. And especially after he posted a 5 ERA in his first year. That is why I mention that a trade like this is going to be painful for some to take if it were to ever materialize.

Kennedy,Horne,Melky,Tabata,Jackson are all touchable if Bedard is actually available.

Jones was the only guy I thought was any good. A 22 year old centerfielder who put up great numbers as a 21 year old in AAA.

A top pitching prospect and top positional player probably gets it done. The only thing that overwhelmed me was the sheer volume the M's gave up. Something like 5 guys.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-18-08, 11:37 AM
Considering the fact that even under normal circumstances teams always seem to ask more from the Yankees than from other teams, why would they change their tune when the Yankees are in desperation mode?

It all really depends on where the Mariners want to go now. They just fired their GM, so I wonder if they have that direction yet and how easy they will be to deal with. I am sure Cashman has already sized that up, of course.

Brick Tamland
06-18-08, 11:49 AM
If the Cubbies are dangling Hill I would imagine the Yankees will have to show up with something like Hughes in order to get the deal done. I might be willing to do so at this point provided that it's Phil and two decent prospects.

dont_ya_know24
06-18-08, 11:55 AM
kennedy, mccutchen/horne/marquez, tabata/gardner gets this deal done.

continentalg5
06-18-08, 12:06 PM
What are the chances that we get something done before the ASB?

mrbawm
06-18-08, 12:27 PM
Apparently the Mariners are going to release Sexson so that part of the deal is probably out.

YASS
06-18-08, 12:42 PM
Kennedy,Horne,Melky,Tabata,Jackson are all touchable if Bedard is actually available.

Jones was the only guy I thought was any good. A 22 year old centerfielder who put up great numbers as a 21 year old in AAA.

A top pitching prospect and top positional player probably gets it done. The only thing that overwhelmed me was the sheer volume the M's gave up. Something like 5 guys.
Quality > Quantity every time.

Besides Adam Jones, there were no genuinely premium parts in that deal (although I like Sherrill very much).

R.V.47
06-18-08, 12:45 PM
Im sure the Mariners want to cut payroll and dump some players but why would Bedard be one of those guys? They just traded 5 players for him and I would think they would want him as a guy to build a team around.

YASS
06-18-08, 12:52 PM
kennedy, mccutchen/horne/marquez, tabata/gardner gets this deal done.
Kennedy/Horne/Gardner certainly might get it done. McCutchen is coming off a great outing, but he's almost 26 and has had some struggles in transitioning to AAA that might have dropped his stock some. Marquez, likewise, is coming off his best outing, but his value is probably at an all-time low. He's had a tough year so far.

Kennedy has shown signs of recovering from his tough start this year and still looks like a solid #3, Horne missed a lot of time with an injury, but it seems like nothing to be concerned about long-term, and he's always had great peripherals. I don't know what his ceiling is, but he's going to be a major league pitcher.

Finally, if I were Seattle, I'd want Gardner over Tabata, who still hasn't shown much power and might have some makeup concerns. Gardner added some pop this year to go with his speed and defense (although I expected him to run more than he has so far this year), so he's the clear preference there -- plus, of course, he's just about major league ready. Tabata isn't close.


EDIT: Just reread your initial post and I might have misinterpreted what you meant. I assumed you meant two pitchers and one position player from the list you posted. Did you mean to suggest only one of McCutchen/Horne/Kennedy and one of Tabata/Gardner? If so, I think the M's will want more.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 12:52 PM
These trade proposals are so off base. You gotta give something to get something.

YASS
06-18-08, 12:55 PM
Im sure the Mariners want to cut payroll and dump some players but why would Bedard be one of those guys? They just traded 5 players for him and I would think they would want him as a guy to build a team around.
I don't get it, either, but the rumors that Bedard is on the block are coming from everywhere. Assuming smoke = fire (dangerous assumption, I know), they may actually be thinking of trading him.

Dannman103
06-18-08, 12:56 PM
Bedard is the type of guy you deal good prospects for. He has proven his ability to pitch well in the A.L. East. He is 29 years old and he is left handed. I would take him, Joba and Andy in a playoff series against any team.


If Bedard was as good as you're implying, don't you think that teams might be less inclined to trade him so quickly. I mean, this would be the second trade of him in less than a year. It seems to me that the Mariners seem to have soured on him awfully quickly, after giving up a top prospect in Adam Jones to get him. And for a guy that's only seven days younger than Johan Santana, he certainly has yet to totally come into his own as a pitcher. If we're gonna make this kind of trade, I'd rather have a guy like Sabathia, who's both younger and more proven, and seems to be tougher mentally.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-18-08, 12:57 PM
I don't get it, either, but the rumors that Bedard is on the block are coming from everywhere. Assuming smoke = fire (dangerous assumption, I know), they may actually be thinking of trading him.

Reports are that he is miserable up there, and a problem on the team. That said, given how much they gave up for him, and that he is under contract for next year as well, I don't think anyone is going to steal him from them.

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 12:58 PM
The new (interim) Lou (innonesco--spelling not even close) just had an organizational meeting -what the plan is the next 3 1/2 months. Maybe Bedard is not a long term solution for them.

The guy has some problems with media or so the reports say.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 12:59 PM
I repeat. The M's are not going to trade Bedard at 50 cents on the dollar.

dont_ya_know24
06-18-08, 01:00 PM
YASS-

yeah that's what i meant.

think about it though- kennedy, horne/mccutchen, and tabata is a better package than what they sent to the orioles for bedard.

fellows
06-18-08, 01:00 PM
Taking Sexson back does nothing for the M's anyway. Paying the remaining money this year isn't a big deal for them. The M's are not intrested in Yankee B and C level prospects that have fallen out of favor with the fanbase. No one wants AAAA Shelly Duncan. The Mariners will not get back what they gave up for Berdard, but it won't be that far off. Start with Jackson, Horne, and Betances to get in the ballpark.

smckdwn989
06-18-08, 01:00 PM
I repeat. The M's are not going to trade Bedard at 50 cents on the dollar.

instead of telling people this.

why not create a proposal that you think would be required to get a deal to work?

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-18-08, 01:00 PM
I repeat. The M's are not going to trade Bedard at 50 cents on the dollar.

Oh come on. He's young, healthy, has a history of success in the AL East, and they gave up a great prospect for him -- you don't think we can get him for Duncan AND Igawa?

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 01:01 PM
instead of telling people this.

why not create a proposal that you think would be required to get a deal to work?

Austin Jackson/Tabata and Ian Kennedy/Horne just to get into the conversation.

Dannman103
06-18-08, 01:02 PM
Austin Jackson/Tabata and Ian Kennedy/Horne just to get into the conversation.

Does Kennedy really have any value to anyone else at this point? If I was the Mariners, I'd have zero interest in him.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 01:02 PM
Oh come on. He's young, healthy, has a history of success in the AL East, and they gave up a great prospect for him -- you don't think we can get him for Duncan AND Igawa?

You never know ;)

ShaneTravis
06-18-08, 01:04 PM
The Mariners have Silva,Bautista, and Washburn on the roster.

Yes, Kennedy would be of interest to them.

Yankee Fan in Boston
06-18-08, 01:07 PM
Does Kennedy really have any value to anyone else at this point? If I was the Mariners, I'd have zero interest in him.

Absolutely. I think most major league teams understand that a young pitcher might struggle -- it's people on message boards who are willing to cast them off after a handful of bad starts.

smckdwn989
06-18-08, 01:14 PM
Austin Jackson/Tabata and Ian Kennedy/Horne just to get into the conversation.

ok... that's not exactly THAT far off of the proposals that others have given

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 01:17 PM
ok... that's not exactly THAT far off of the proposals that others have given

I said just to get into a conversation with them. I saw proposals of Horne/Mccutchen and some relief prospects. I would think Jackson is a must.

fellows
06-18-08, 01:18 PM
Considering they gave up Jones, they would have to demand Jackson be part of any deal IMO.

smckdwn989
06-18-08, 01:22 PM
I said just to get into a conversation with them. I saw proposals of Horne/Mccutchen and some relief prospects. I would think Jackson is a must.

I'll do:

kennedy, horne/mccutchen, jackson/tabata + another prospect for him.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 01:24 PM
I'll do:

kennedy, horne/mccutchen, jackson/tabata + another prospect for him.

Now that's a real trade offer. If it was Tabata and not Jackson and Mccutchen and not Horne, I'd do it in a NY minute.

fellows
06-18-08, 01:25 PM
What about either Dellin Betances or Austin Romine being part of the deal?

YASS
06-18-08, 01:31 PM
YASS-

yeah that's what i meant.

think about it though- kennedy, horne/mccutchen, and tabata is a better package than what they sent to the orioles for bedard.
I don't know about that. Adam Jones is a great prospect, and George Sherrill has late-inning stuff - he's at least a dependable 7th inning guy, maybe more. Jones needs time to show it, but he has the potential to be a beast. And, of course, they threw in some other guys, too:

Chris Tillman is 7-1 with a 2.78 ERA with a K/9 over 9 as a 20-year-old in the Eastern League. That ain't chopped liver, either. Plus, there were two other prospects thrown in, one of which has a pretty good arm (Tony Butler).

Some of the folks in your list have issues that will make a club think twice.

Tabata: Makeup/immaturity issues, and he just hasn't put up the numbers. It's a long time since his hamate injury -- when's the projected power going to start showing itself? He's still 19, I know, but ... if he isn't ready for AA, then why is he there?
McCutchen: Having a tough time transitioning to AAA and developing kind of slowly for an experienced college pitcher. Good control, but doesn't have overwhelming stuff; not a sure thing to pitch in the major leagues.


I'll say it again: If I'm Seattle, I'd be intrigued by a package containing Kennedy, Horne, and Gardner. Kennedy, McCutchen, and Tabata? Not so much. One of Kennedy/Horne/McCutchen and Tabata? Not at all.

THEBOSS84
06-18-08, 01:35 PM
I'll say it again: If I'm Seattle, I'd be intrigued by a package containing Kennedy, Horne, and Gardner. Kennedy, McCutchen, and Tabata? Not so much. One of Kennedy/Horne/McCutchen and Tabata? Not at all.

So let me get this straight. Yesterday you said the Yanks should offer Jackson and Hughes for Harden yet today you think they can get Bedard for Kennedy, Horne and Gardner. Do you have split personalities?

knickfan23
06-18-08, 01:49 PM
What are the chances that we get something done before the ASB?

Considering that Seattle would be negotiating has nothing going on in terms of possible playoff chances, they would be more inclined to make a deal quickly than other teams like Milwaukee and Cleveland.

I would say the teams, if they were to talk, wouldnt wait until the deadline. They could get something done 2 or 3 weeks before hand. Even I wouldnt make a deal now. Let a couple weeks play out and if the good times keep going with the wins, they can deal with the knowledge that they have guy who are plugging gaps and not have a sense of desperation.

Lets give it one month and take it from there.

themgmt
06-18-08, 02:00 PM
The thing for me though is, I don't want Bedard because Wang is hurt, I just want Bedard.

Wang Bedard Hughes Joba Pettitte/Kennedy 09?

That's Filthy. Imagine the playoff rotation this year of Wang Pettite Joba Bedard.

I stand by it: Yanks take Sexson, give Horne McCutchen Marquez Duncan Gardner and another decent arm gets it done. If the stakes get raised, add Betances instead of the decent arm.

Horne Betances McCutchen Marquez Gardner Duncan for Bedard and Sexson, make it happen Cashman.

primetime714
06-18-08, 02:03 PM
I'm not being narrow-minded. Sexson is useless. He does nothing offensively. I could find an all glove guy for league minimum that still has higher OBP than Sexson. Why would I pay 15 million?

Well he is hitting .350 with a .998 OPS against lefties this year. As a right handed bat off the bench he wouldn't be the worst option to help with our struggles against lefties. And if including him in the deal helps us get Bedard that would certainly be fine by me. Its not my money and its off the books at the end of the year.

primetime714
06-18-08, 02:09 PM
McCutchen: Having a tough time transitioning to AAA and developing kind of slowly for an experienced college pitcher. Good control, but doesn't have overwhelming stuff; not a sure thing to pitch in the major leagues.

I don't know how tough of a time McCutchen is having transitioning to AAA the guy did just throw a complete game shutout his last outing, his 5th start in AAA. A couple starts adjustment time is not crazy.

As far as developing kind of slowly. Last year was his only full year in the minors. In 2006 he only 29 innings. He's also had success at every level. He probably could've been pushed up the ladder faster, but the Yankees decided not to.

I think you're just paying too much attention to his age and not his performance.

antlj
06-18-08, 02:10 PM
Contrary to what many are saying, the O's got some legitimate prospects besides just Adam Jones.

Chris Tillamn is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball. The kid is dominating as a 20-year-old and projects as a front of the rotation starter. He's 6' 5 and weighs less than 200 lbs, so it stands to reason that he could add a few ticks to his fastball that already reaches the mid-90's. He's a legit stud prospect.

Tony Butler is a tall lefty (6' 7) that has a low-90's fastball, a plus curve, and a decent change and profiles as a mid-rotation starter.

And Kam Mickolio is 6' 9 and features a power sinker at 92-97 mph. Imagine Wang's sinker, but coming from a release point 6 inches higher. He throws a slider too, which isn't anything special, but combine it with the sinker and he profiles as a dominant reliever, maybe even set-up caliber.

I'm not trying to say that it will definitely take the same kind of prospects to pry Bedard away from the M's, but it gives you a measuring stick to what it could take. The Mariners definitely gave up A LOT to get Bedard, so he won't come cheaply for the Yanks either. Keep in mind that according to Baseball America, Tillman, Butler, and Mickolio were the M's 3, 12, and 18 prospects respectively. Then add that to the fact that they also gave up Jones AND Sherill.

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 02:11 PM
Considering that Seattle would be negotiating has nothing going on in terms of possible playoff chances, they would be more inclined to make a deal quickly than other teams like Milwaukee and Cleveland.

I would say the teams, if they were to talk, wouldnt wait until the deadline. They could get something done 2 or 3 weeks before hand. Even I wouldnt make a deal now. Let a couple weeks play out and if the good times keep going with the wins, they can deal with the knowledge that they have guy who are plugging gaps and not have a sense of desperation.

Lets give it one month and take it from there.

not to throw a wrench in your thoughts but there is always next year for Seattle. Why would they not only throw away this year but next year as well for that package. Sorry, it won't get cheaper.

YASS
06-18-08, 02:18 PM
So let me get this straight. Yesterday you said the Yanks should offer Jackson and Hughes for Harden yet today you think they can get Bedard for Kennedy, Horne and Gardner. Do you have split personalities?
Actually, no. I'd pay more for Bedard, but I really think Seattle would consider an offer like this one. Beane wouldn't let him go for that, I don't think.

Other reasons:

I like Harden more than I like Bedard, despite the injury history, and he has the better contract.
I'm not all the way on the Jackson bandwagon. I don't fully trust the second half numbers from last year -- at least not yet, I don't.
I'm not fully confident that Phil Hughes will recover his old mechanics (if that's the real problem) and become who we all thought he would become.
I really like Gardner and Alan Horne.

YASS
06-18-08, 02:20 PM
I don't know how tough of a time McCutchen is having transitioning to AAA the guy did just throw a complete game shutout his last outing, his 5th start in AAA. A couple starts adjustment time is not crazy.

As far as developing kind of slowly. Last year was his only full year in the minors. In 2006 he only 29 innings. He's also had success at every level. He probably could've been pushed up the ladder faster, but the Yankees decided not to.

I think you're just paying too much attention to his age and not his performance.
His performance has been solid, but he hasn't knocked off anyone's socks. Sorry, I'm just not that impressed. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but his scouting report screams #4/5 starter to me.

primetime714
06-18-08, 02:46 PM
His performance has been solid, but he hasn't knocked off anyone's socks. Sorry, I'm just not that impressed. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but his scouting report screams #4/5 starter to me.

I don't disagree with your analysis of McCutchen I also think he projects as a #4/5. However the way you worded made it seem like he was toiling away in the minors when in actuality he has really had virtually no problems at every level he has pitched at thus far. His ceiling certainly isn't anything special (likely a #3 at absolute best) but he is on the cusp of reaching the majors where he could be a very good bottom of the rotation starter, who would be cost controlled for several years. Certainly not a prize prospect, but not one to scoff at either. Especially when you consider the money Seattle has invest into the bottom/middle of their rotation the past couple years (Washburn, Weaver, Batista, Silva). When some of these contracts expire I'm sure the team would love to have guys within their system that could adequately fill those roles at a reasonable price. Allowing them to spend money on their dismal offense.

themgmt
06-18-08, 02:49 PM
I'd take Carlos Silva's contract, if they decide to just release Sexson. That might be tempting, he got a huge contract and he is no good.


I would NOT give away the farm for him though, period. If the type of deal I set wasn't enough, then I'll pass on a 1.5 year rental. If I could get Bedard for a guaranteed 4-5 years (at the most), then I'd think about including better prospects.

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 02:55 PM
as long as that price isn't that of an ace, one year removed.

primetime714
06-18-08, 03:02 PM
I'd take Carlos Silva's contract, if they decide to just release Sexson. That might be tempting, he got a huge contract and he is no good.


I would NOT give away the farm for him though, period. If the type of deal I set wasn't enough, then I'll pass on a 1.5 year rental. If I could get Bedard for a guaranteed 4-5 years (at the most), then I'd think about including better prospects.

I wouldn't touch Silva's contract. Not only is it a bad contract I wouldn't want to be stuck with Silva in our rotation for the next 3 years.

As far as the extension, what's the rush? The Yankees have the money to sign him, they might as well get a preview of what to expect long term from him in a Yankee uniform before locking him up to a long term deal. If we traded for him I'd wait until the offseason to talk extension. If things went well with Bedard you can guaratee the Yankees will find a way to keep him in Pinstripes.

themgmt
06-18-08, 03:12 PM
I wouldn't touch Silva's contract. Not only is it a bad contract I wouldn't want to be stuck with Silva in our rotation for the next 3 years.

As far as the extension, what's the rush? The Yankees have the money to sign him, they might as well get a preview of what to expect long term from him in a Yankee uniform before locking him up to a long term deal. If we traded for him I'd wait until the offseason to talk extension. If things went well with Bedard you can guaratee the Yankees will find a way to keep him in Pinstripes.

If you wait until his contract expires, you'll be paying for some of the years you don't want. Bedard's best years are going to be his next 4-5 years. I'd take Silva's contract and eat most of it and move him, not start him. We paid $50 million for Igawa, it wouldn't be the worst move ever.

4 years 44 million is rough but Bedard is only going to cost maybe 12M over the first two years.

I'd pretty much pay anything monetarily to get Bedard, but not more than 1 big time prospect.

knickfan23
06-18-08, 03:12 PM
not to throw a wrench in your thoughts but there is always next year for Seattle. Why would they not only throw away this year but next year as well for that package. Sorry, it won't get cheaper.

I never said the price would be cheaper. Hell, I've been saying the price is going to be high and people should be expecting it to be that way and not be of the mind the Yanks can steal this guy.

The only way Seattle keep him for next season is if they feel they can resign him and Bedard is open to an extension. They are not structually set up to make the playoffs next year. Otherwise, what is the point of them keeping him? Once they stink again next year and free agency is looming, they are either going to have to trade him at 50 cents on the dollar (because few teams will go crazy with prospects), or take the two first round picks.

fellows
06-18-08, 03:17 PM
I'd take Carlos Silva's contract, if they decide to just release Sexson. That might be tempting, he got a huge contract and he is no good.


I would NOT give away the farm for him though, period. If the type of deal I set wasn't enough, then I'll pass on a 1.5 year rental. If I could get Bedard for a guaranteed 4-5 years (at the most), then I'd think about including better prospects.


Yuck.


Carlos Silva rhp
4 years/$48M (2008-11), plus 2012 mutual option



signed as a free agent 12/20/07
$5M signing bonus
08:$7M, 09:$11M, 10:$11.5M, 11:$11.5M, 12:$12M mutual option ($2M buyout)
no-trade protection for 2008

award bonuses: $0.2M for Cy Young, $0.1M for WS MVP, $50,000 each for LCS MVP, Gold Glove, All Star

suite on road<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

2 years/$5.05M (2005-06), plus 2007 club option
avoided arbitration 1/05 ($2.225M-$1.6M)
05:$1.75M, 06:$3.2M, 07:$4M club option ($0.1M buyout)
Twins exercised $4M 2007 option 10/06

$0.1M/year in performance bonuses

$25,000 each for 195 & 200 IP, $50,000 for 210 IP


2007 option becomes a mutual option if Silva:

is traded, has 205 IP in 2006, or has 410 IP in 2006-07


Silva forfeits buyout if he rejects mutual option to stay with Twins
2007 option increases to $4.325M with 360 IP in 2005-06, $4.75M with 380 IP in 2005-06, $5M with 400 IP in 2005-06, $5.25M with 420 IP in 2005-06, $5.35M with 430 IP in 2005-06, or $5.75M with 440 IP in 2005-06
1 year/$0.34M (2004)
1 year/$0.31M (2003)
agents: Barry Praver, Scott Shapiro

ML service: 6.000

themgmt
06-18-08, 03:22 PM
Yeah so 34M over the next 3 years. I believe Bedard is only making 7M so if you look at it as a joint deal you're paying 9M for Bedard this year, 18M for Bedard next year. Then It gets ridiculous after that but with all the money coming off the books, I wouldn't mind eating most of that contract and moving Silva.

With A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Mo, and Wang, the next 4-5 years is the time to make a lot happen.

primetime714
06-18-08, 03:29 PM
If you wait until his contract expires, you'll be paying for some of the years you don't want. Bedard's best years are going to be his next 4-5 years. I'd take Silva's contract and eat most of it and move him, not start him. We paid $50 million for Igawa, it wouldn't be the worst move ever.

4 years 44 million is rough but Bedard is only going to cost maybe 12M over the first two years.

I'd pretty much pay anything monetarily to get Bedard, but not more than 1 big time prospect.

You won't be able to move Silva's contract. Even if you eat like half his salary. Look at the year he is having. He's absolutely dreadful.

Yea we wasted 46M on Igawa (20M of which went against the salary cap) why flush more money down the toilet? Especially with all the contracts we have coming off the books this year. We'll be in line to spend some money on good players (Sabathia and/or Teixeira).

I'd take on Sexson's deal because its a short term hit and he may not be terrible if used strictly against left handed pitching. But Silva with 3 more years left after this one at over 10M per, no way!

Plus when you say you'll only give up 1 big time prospect, who is this big time prospect? Kennedy, Horne, Tabata, Jackson? I don't know how many of those guys we can call "big time prospects." Don't get me wrong I like all of them. However they do have their limitations. Kennedy has average stuff and has yet to prove he can handle the majors (the 3 starts last year are not enough to go by). Even if he can most project him as a 4/5 starter with a ceiling of a #3. Horne has great stuff, but still has below average control. His projections are similar to Kennedy's, but for different reasons. Tabata has a a high ceiling, but his power, attitude, and ability to perform at advanced levels have all come into question this year. Jackson is probably the one guy in consideration for this trade that you could really deem as a "big time prospect". Kennedy, Horne, Tabata are all very good prospects, but all of them have either limited potential or serious questions about whether they can reach their potential.

jeterlove
06-18-08, 03:34 PM
Can I ask why so many people here still think that other teams consider Tabata and Kennedy to be top tier prospects?

They may very well be great players, but no team is going to see what Kennedy did this season or see Tabata's problems and consider them "cornerstones" to any huge deal anymore.

I mean can you imagine if the Yankees were going to trade a good player for a guy like Kennedy after you saw what he did this season? Cashman would be burned at the stake.

Nobody is going to send a guy like Bedard, Halladay (lol), or Sabathia when Kennedy and Tabata are major parts of the deal.

just-blaze
06-18-08, 03:52 PM
His performance has been solid, but he hasn't knocked off anyone's socks. Sorry, I'm just not that impressed. Maybe I'm wrong about him, but his scouting report screams #4/5 starter to me.

Word for word. I feel the same way about Masterson.

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 03:54 PM
I never said the price would be cheaper. Hell, I've been saying the price is going to be high and people should be expecting it to be that way and not be of the mind the Yanks can steal this guy.

The only way Seattle keep him for next season is if they feel they can resign him and Bedard is open to an extension. They are not structually set up to make the playoffs next year. Otherwise, what is the point of them keeping him? Once they stink again next year and free agency is looming, they are either going to have to trade him at 50 cents on the dollar (because few teams will go crazy with prospects), or take the two first round picks.

I apologize, I thought you said you can wait it out until he is available for peanuts like the Abreau deal. Anyone out there who does is comparing apples to oranges. Pitchers are much more expensive as the deadline gets closer.

That being said, Seattle does spend money and lose at least 22 million in salary for next year. That is one high profile player or a few aging high profile players. What happens today doesn't mean it will happen again tomorrow.

just-blaze
06-18-08, 03:55 PM
Can I ask why so many people here still think that other teams consider Tabata and Kennedy to be top tier prospects?

They may very well be great players, but no team is going to see what Kennedy did this season or see Tabata's problems and consider them "cornerstones" to any huge deal anymore.


You could have said the same about Hanley Ramirez and Carlos Gomez before they were traded.

Most teams rely more on talent/scouting reports and career results vs. SSS.

That being said, alot of teams will probably try to get IPK or Tabata right now, b/c their value is low and not much if anything would have to be given to acquire either. That's why the Yankees would be stupid to trade them now and more than likely why you won't see them being traded.

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 03:57 PM
Word for word. I feel the same way about Masterson.

I can understand that BUT Masterson is 4 and 1 in the big leagues right now. Players who have have done something in the big leagues are generaly more valued than players who have not.

just-blaze
06-18-08, 04:02 PM
I can understand that BUT Masterson is 4 and 1 in the big leagues right now. Players who have have done something in the big leagues are generaly more valued than players who have not.

No debate there......that statement he made just reminded me of Masterson.

Masterson has a ton of value right now. Quite frankly if I were the Sox I would be gauging what his value in a trade would be now, because based on his history he will be hitting a correction pretty soon.

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 04:16 PM
No debate there......that statement he made just reminded me of Masterson.

Masterson has a ton of value right now. Quite frankly if I were the Sox I would be gauging what his value in a trade would be now, because based on his history he will be hitting a correction pretty soon.

the Sox are in a great place, they can basicly get anyone available right now. But do they really need anyone?

4bronxbombers
06-18-08, 04:18 PM
I'll take Bedard over Ponson any day of the week. :barf:

4bronxbombers
06-18-08, 04:22 PM
Oh it really bugs me that his name is spelled wrong in the thread title. :thatsodd: Can you ask the mods to change it? :o

CallOfTheCrow
06-18-08, 05:14 PM
the Sox are in a great place, they can basicly get anyone available right now. But do they really need anyone?

What do you mean exactly? Are you implying that Justin Masterson is able to be the center piece in getting a big time player?

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 08:05 PM
What do you mean exactly? Are you implying that Justin Masterson is able to be the center piece in getting a big time player?

he could be, if the Sox so desired.

bmxstreetrider86
06-18-08, 08:11 PM
he could be, if the Sox so desired.


and what player would a package centered around masterson bring back?



and you think that fact that he has performed ok in the majors means he has more value? either your underrating the intelligence of baseball execs or overrating the value of 5 starts in the major leagues

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 08:30 PM
and what exactly are baseball execs saying?

bmxstreetrider86
06-18-08, 08:47 PM
and what exactly are baseball execs saying?


no idea, but i doubt it involves:


"who cares what the scouting reports in the minors looks like, he has 4 wins in 5 starts!!!"

Blazer
06-18-08, 09:14 PM
Read some of the O's forums about Bedard. After that do the same on the M's boards. He's not a go-to type of guy. I don't mind giving up a couple mid prospects for 1 1/2 years of him, but not nearly as much as the M's got fleesed for.

knickfan23
06-18-08, 10:32 PM
Read some of the O's forums about Bedard. After that do the same on the M's boards. He's not a go-to type of guy. I don't mind giving up a couple mid prospects for 1 1/2 years of him, but not nearly as much as the M's got fleesed for.

It's very difficult to take their beliefs as true when you consider how bad those teams are. He is certainly not the reason for each of those teams failures. Bedard was set to possibly win the Cy Young had he not gotten hurt last year.

We saw the Mariners when they came to town. They have way more issues than any one pitcher can control. Even Felix Hernandez as great as he has pitched this season is somehow only 5-5.

I cannot take their views seriously. Its like T'Wolves fans and others saying KG was a loser before he came to the Celtics. They never seemed to mention that those teams stunk.

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 10:56 PM
no idea, but i doubt it involves:


"who cares what the scouting reports in the minors looks like, he has 4 wins in 5 starts!!!"

and what are those scouting reports in the minors saying? He has succeeded at every level in the minors. In 2006 draft he was hyped as a potenial first rounder and is ranked by every sports publication that tracks prospects as no worse than the 4th rated prospect on a team in the top 5 in prospect developement. Now while I do know Masterson is not a top 2 starter in the bigs, probably at best a 4th, and his success so far in the bigs has been from a small sample, one cannot ignore the facts of his success and the fact that in reports he is thought of as a 3rd or 4th starter. So tell me, what negative scouting reports are you refering to?

ngruz25
06-18-08, 11:11 PM
Scouting reports have Masterson as a middle of the rotation starter or a top tier reliever. If he were to be involved in a deal, it would most certainly be a blockbuster, but he wouldn't be the only player involved. He would definitely be a big piece of said deal, however.

I'd say his trade value now is analogous to Kennedy's at the start of the season.

bmxstreetrider86
06-18-08, 11:23 PM
and what are those scouting reports in the minors saying? He has succeeded at every level in the minors. In 2006 draft he was hyped as a potenial first rounder and is ranked by every sports publication that tracks prospects as no worse than the 4th rated prospect on a team in the top 5 in prospect developement. Now while I do know Masterson is not a top 2 starter in the bigs, probably at best a 4th, and his success so far in the bigs has been from a small sample, one cannot ignore the facts of his success and the fact that in reports he is thought of as a 3rd or 4th starter. So tell me, what negative scouting reports are you refering to?


his success has been ok, sure he is 4-1, but his FIP 5.10 and no one thinks his secondary stuff is very good.

as far as the scouting reports, im talking about the ones that generally state he has no plus, or even above average, secondary pitches. it takes imagination and faith in his sinker and makeup to even peg him as a #3 by traditional standards. thats not negative per se, but it isnt the type of profile teams are lining up for



3rd and 4th starter potential guys dont fetch alot in trades, and while i agree that is valuable, you arent landing anything big with those type of guys. thats why it is better to keep them than to trade them.


you might get an established #3 type guy for him, but your gonna need more of you want a legit bat or a quality 1-2 pitcher, thats for sure

bmxstreetrider86
06-18-08, 11:25 PM
I'd say his trade value now is analogous to Kennedy's at the start of the season.


i would agree, but who really wants that guy to be the centerpiece of a big time trade? and im talking about a 1-2 pitcher or a good closer, or an impact bat?

ngruz25
06-18-08, 11:34 PM
i would agree, but who really wants that guy to be the centerpiece of a big time trade? and im talking about a 1-2 pitcher or a good closer, or an impact bat?
Yeah I definitely I don't think he'd be the centerpiece, but he'd definitely be a pretty big piece. The rumored Santana deal was Crisp, Lester, Masterson, and Lowrie/Kalish. I don't think that deal gets done without Masterson involved (unless they substituted Bowden), but he wasn't the main piece going over (I would say Lester was).

hockeypuck2008
06-18-08, 11:39 PM
i would agree, but who really wants that guy to be the centerpiece of a big time trade? and im talking about a 1-2 pitcher or a good closer, or an impact bat?

than you can say the same thing about Kennedy now couldn't you? If Masterson isn't good enough to be a centerpiece than neither can Kennedy.

bmxstreetrider86
06-19-08, 12:04 AM
than you can say the same thing about Kennedy now couldn't you? If Masterson isn't good enough to be a centerpiece than neither can Kennedy.


i actually did say the same thing about kennedy.



and i didnt say he couldnt be the centerpiece of a deal, i said its unlikely since he wont bring back anything more than what he may become, and there will need to be more

themgmt
06-19-08, 07:41 AM
Sign Bedard to a 5 year, 200 Million dollar deal.

Make it happen Cashman.

jeterlove
06-19-08, 09:28 AM
You could have said the same about Hanley Ramirez and Carlos Gomez before they were traded.

Most teams rely more on talent/scouting reports and career results vs. SSS.

That being said, alot of teams will probably try to get IPK or Tabata right now, b/c their value is low and not much if anything would have to be given to acquire either. That's why the Yankees would be stupid to trade them now and more than likely why you won't see them being traded.

Yea but at least those guys showed something...

Tabata has been a complete bust thus far and a headcase to boot. And there isn't a scout alive who saw Kennedy pitch in 2008 and came away impressed.

At this point they have way more value with the Yankees then they do as trade chips, which you seem to agree with.

It just amazes me when people throw out "Kenney + Duncan for Bedard?!?!?!" type stuff on here.

dont_ya_know24
06-19-08, 09:39 AM
maybe they might like miranda??

Dannman103
06-19-08, 09:51 AM
Personally, I'd much rather have Sabathia than Bedard. I don't really see the appeal of Bedard. I know he has good stuff, but Sabathia is two years younger, and still much more proven. I know he has a lot of innings in his arm already, but Bedard has also shown that he is fairly brittle. I also feel like mentally, Erik seems to be soft. So give me the younger, tougher, better Sabathia any day of the week. I know people might think Bedard would be easier to get, but I think the fact that Sabathia's contract is up after this year would serve to lower the cost of getting him to a degree.

b_joseph
06-19-08, 03:13 PM
Yea but at least those guys showed something...

Tabata has been a complete bust thus far and a headcase to boot. And there isn't a scout alive who saw Kennedy pitch in 2008 and came away impressed.

At this point they have way more value with the Yankees then they do as trade chips, which you seem to agree with.

It just amazes me when people throw out "Kenney + Duncan for Bedard?!?!?!" type stuff on here.Tough school. Calling him a bust because of 2 average months and 3 very very good seasons is rather silly.

just-blaze
06-19-08, 03:43 PM
Yea but at least those guys showed something...

Tabata has been a complete bust thus far and a headcase to boot. And there isn't a scout alive who saw Kennedy pitch in 2008 and came away impressed.

At this point they have way more value with the Yankees then they do as trade chips, which you seem to agree with.

It just amazes me when people throw out "Kenney + Duncan for Bedard?!?!?!" type stuff on here.

He hasnt done any less than those 2 did before they got traded.

themgmt
06-19-08, 05:03 PM
Ok my new offer for Bedard

Bedard, Sexson and Silva for Chad Moeller. We give Bedard a 3 year extension worth 318M

YanksFan1992
06-19-08, 06:04 PM
Apparently he's "officially" on the market now.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/06/starks-latest-1.html

Abe Frohman
06-19-08, 11:26 PM
We really nee to make a serious push for Bedard. I think he can be had for a lot less

than what Sabathia will command and can be just as good for us. Cashman shold be

concocting some kind of offer immediately. Especially with his numbers against

Boston ??? I want this guy in pinstripes ASAP. This move would also be a slap in

the face to O's owner Angelos.

smckdwn989
06-20-08, 11:58 AM
We really nee to make a serious push for Bedard. I think he can be had for a lot less

than what Sabathia will command and can be just as good for us. Cashman shold be

concocting some kind of offer immediately. Especially with his numbers against

Boston ??? I want this guy in pinstripes ASAP. This move would also be a slap in

the face to O's owner Angelos.



grrr you make some good posts, but I hate how you space them out... it's going to give me an ulcer :lol:

primetime714
06-20-08, 02:06 PM
We really nee to make a serious push for Bedard. I think he can be had for a lot less

than what Sabathia will command and can be just as good for us. Cashman shold be

concocting some kind of offer immediately. Especially with his numbers against

Boston ??? I want this guy in pinstripes ASAP. This move would also be a slap in

the face to O's owner Angelos.

I agree. Now's a great time to buy relatively low on Bedard. His value has gone down a bit to the point where we could probably put together a package that didn't include Hughes or Cano.

I said this earlier, but I'd go as high as IPK, Horne, Tabata for him. Although I'd start with something along the lines of: IPK/Horne, Marquez/McCutchen, Tabata, and Cox. I think those are pretty fair offers. Also if the M's haven't released Sexson already we could sweeten the pot by agreeing to take on the rest of his salary.

fellows
06-20-08, 02:42 PM
I think the Mariners would be more intrested in high ceiling low level prospects than a team like Cleveland. I think a deal like Jackson, Kennedy/Horne, Dellin Betances, +B level prospect is a realistic package to get Bedard. Erik has a great contract status and could put the Yankees over the top so he will not come cheap.

THEBOSS84
06-20-08, 02:43 PM
I think the Mariners would be more intrested in high ceiling low level prospects than a team like Cleveland. I think a deal like Jackson, Kennedy/Horne, Dellin Betances, +B level prospect is a realistic package to get Bedard. Erik has a great contract status and could put the Yankees over the top so he will not come cheap.

I personally would never make that trade if I were Cash.

Yankees1962
06-20-08, 02:45 PM
I've heard some real negative things about Bedard and I'm not sure he's a good fit for the Yankees nor NYC. I've heard he doesn't like to go over 100 pitches and a pitcher that young who feels that way is somebody I wouldn't want on my club. Also, he hates the media and probably won't be very happy with the NY media. He's very surly like RJ, but without RJs resume of accomplishments.

Cashman really needs to do his research and make sure none of the above is true.

teknetic
06-20-08, 02:48 PM
I think the Mariners would be more intrested in high ceiling low level prospects than a team like Cleveland. I think a deal like Jackson, Kennedy/Horne, Dellin Betances, +B level prospect is a realistic package to get Bedard. Erik has a great contract status and could put the Yankees over the top so he will not come cheap.

Realistic? that's bordering on absurd if you're the Yankees. Bedard is good, but he isn't worth our best offensive mL talent (not named Montero) our best arm in AAA and Betances with a B+ prospect thrown into the mix.

just-blaze
06-20-08, 02:48 PM
I personally would never make that trade if I were Cash.

Meh....Im not sure what the contract status is for Bedard, but Jackson/Kennedy/Betances is something I would do depending on that contract status.

THEBOSS84
06-20-08, 02:50 PM
Meh....Im not sure what the contract status is for Bedard, but Jackson/Kennedy/Betances is something I would do depending on that contract status.

2009 is his final year before free agency.

just-blaze
06-20-08, 02:53 PM
2009 is his final year before free agency.

So essentially a year and a half of Bedard plus the draft picks (assuming we dont resign him) for AJ/Kennedy/Betances......?

Its an overpay, but Id do it....Id actually try and sell Seattle on Melky or Gardner.

Yankees1962
06-20-08, 02:57 PM
So essentially a year and a half of Bedard plus the draft picks (assuming we dont resign him) for AJ/Kennedy/Betances......?

Its an overpay, but Id do it....Id actually try and sell Seattle on Melky or Gardner.
Luckily, you're not Cashman

just-blaze
06-20-08, 03:03 PM
Luckily, you're not Cashman

I know, because we are trading away the future of the Yankees, my bad.....our system is that barren that we lose those 3 and we are dead in the water and starting over.....:P

Seeing as Cashman is being rumored to Seattle, next year....maybe we are not so lucky.

primetime714
06-20-08, 03:06 PM
I've heard some real negative things about Bedard and I'm not sure he's a good fit for the Yankees nor NYC. I've heard he doesn't like to go over 100 pitches and a pitcher that young who feels that way is somebody I wouldn't want on my club. Also, he hates the media and probably won't be very happy with the NY media. He's very surly like RJ, but without RJs resume of accomplishments.

Cashman really needs to do his research and make sure none of the above is true.

Yea there are lots of rumors about Bedard having a questionable attitude/heart, so I wouldn't be surprised if all of those were true.

Still though if he can be a good pitcher for us, who cares? His bad attitude will just mean that Seattle will be more willing to part with him for less. RJ would've been fine in NY had he pitched up to or near expectations.

As for the 100 pitches thing look at his game logs for 07' he threw over 100 pitches in 21 of 28 starts. Doesn't matter if he doesn't like it if the manager keeps him out there he'll keep throwing. The reason he might not like throwing over 100 pitches now is because he was well on his way to a Cy Young bid last year but was throwing about 110 pitches an outing his last 10 or so outings only to get injured. Maybe he's just thinking about staying healthy for the full year.

fellows
06-20-08, 03:08 PM
Bedard's contract status give the Yankees a good look at what he can do in pinstripes before giving him big money. It saves them from overpaying for Sabathia and giving up a #1 pick.

Yankees1962
06-20-08, 03:11 PM
Yea there are lots of rumors about Bedard having a questionable attitude/heart, so I wouldn't be surprised if all of those were true.

Still though if he can be a good pitcher for us, who cares? His bad attitude will just mean that Seattle will be more willing to part with him for less. RJ would've been fine in NY had he pitched up to or near expectations.

As for the 100 pitches thing look at his game logs for 07' he threw over 100 pitches in 21 of 28 starts. Doesn't matter if he doesn't like it if the manager keeps him out there he'll keep throwing. The reason he might not like throwing over 100 pitches now is because he was well on his way to a Cy Young bid last year but was throwing about 110 pitches an outing his last 10 or so outings only to get injured. Maybe he's just thinking about staying healthy for the full year.
I care if his attitude sucks because his actual performances haven't been good enough over a long period of time to tolerate such a player on the Yankees.

primetime714
06-20-08, 03:15 PM
Meh....Im not sure what the contract status is for Bedard, but Jackson/Kennedy/Betances is something I would do depending on that contract status.

I'd consider it, but you have to fight tooth and nail to keep at least Jackson out of there. Betances has nasty stuff, but he still needs ALOT of work on his control. He is minimum 3 years away IMO and that's IF he solves those problems. I certainly wouldn't give him away from nothing, but for Bedard I wouldn't lose much sleep over that.

Montero is the only untouchable in our minor league system IMO. Jackson would be a tough sale, but for the right player you make that deal. Anyone else is fair game IMO especially for the likes of Bedard.

just-blaze
06-20-08, 03:19 PM
I'd consider it, but you have to fight tooth and nail to keep at least Jackson out of there. Betances has nasty stuff, but he still needs ALOT of work on his control. He is minimum 3 years away IMO and that's IF he solves those problems. I certainly wouldn't give him away from nothing, but for Bedard I wouldn't lose much sleep over that.

Montero is the only untouchable in our minor league system IMO. Jackson would be a tough sale, but for the right player you make that deal. Anyone else is fair game IMO especially for the likes of Bedard.

That's exactly how I feel.....Im not sure we would have to give up Jackson. Gardner's stock is the highest its been and Melky is still only 23 and putting up respectable numbers with good D. I think if you take Jackson out, add one of the other 2 and then add another decent prospect, I think they would have to take it.

primetime714
06-20-08, 03:19 PM
I care if his attitude sucks because his actual performances haven't been good enough over a long period of time to tolerate such a player on the Yankees.

How have his performances not been good enough over a long period of time? The guy has a career 3.86 ERA with about a strikeout per inning throughout his career, most of which has been in the AL East. Last year with Baltimore he was the favorite to win the Cy Young before his injury and would've undoubtedly led the league in strikeouts.

If he brings that type of performance to the Yankees he'd have to be a really horrible person for me not to be happy about having him here.

primetime714
06-20-08, 03:26 PM
That's exactly how I feel.....Im not sure we would have to give up Jackson. Gardner's stock is the highest its been and Melky is still only 23 and putting up respectable numbers with good D. I think if you take Jackson out, add one of the other 2 and then add another decent prospect, I think they would have to take it.

That works for me. Especially if it's Melky as I kind of want to see what Gardner can do at this level, but again for Bedard you still obviously make that move with Gardner and if you absolutely have to probably with Jackson as well.

The problem is that they already have Ichiro in CF I can't see them being too interested in Melky or Gardner as a corner OF. It would give them great defense out there, but what they really need is bats in those corner OF spots. Even Jackson might not be what they're looking for although his bat is good enough that they'd certainly have some interest. Tabata probably doesn't qualify with the year he is having either altho might spark interest on potential.

Abe Frohman
06-20-08, 03:32 PM
Cause the team he's playing has nothing to do with his performance ? The mariners are a HORRIBLE defensive team, errors left and right. You can't pitch effectively under those conditions. not to mention they can't hit. This isn't Barry Zito were talkin bout here, Bedard can be a legit #1 with a little motivation.

fellows
06-20-08, 03:37 PM
That's exactly how I feel.....Im not sure we would have to give up Jackson. Gardner's stock is the highest its been and Melky is still only 23 and putting up respectable numbers with good D. I think if you take Jackson out, add one of the other 2 and then add another decent prospect, I think they would have to take it.

Since the M's gave up Jones for Bedard I think Jackson would have to be in the deal. If your the Mariners how can you sell your fans on 1 top level prospect in low A ball and a pack of B/C level guys?

just-blaze
06-20-08, 03:38 PM
That works for me. Especially if it's Melky as I kind of want to see what Gardner can do at this level, but again for Bedard you still obviously make that move with Gardner and if you absolutely have to probably with Jackson as well.

The problem is that they already have Ichiro in CF I can't see them being too interested in Melky or Gardner as a corner OF. It would give them great defense out there, but what they really need is bats in those corner OF spots. Even Jackson might not be what they're looking for although his bat is good enough that they'd certainly have some interest. Tabata probably doesn't qualify with the year he is having either altho might spark interest on potential.

I believe they moved him back to RF.......Melky might be a good fit for the Mariners.

Melky/Kontos/Betances/Kennedy......ironically enough its more than we offered for Santana, so its not happening.

Then again, maybe we can get a discount if Cash "tells" them he will either go to Seattle or stay in NY.

just-blaze
06-20-08, 03:40 PM
Since the M's gave up Jones for Bedard I think Jackson would have to be in the deal. If your the Mariners how can you sell your fans on 1 top level prospect in low A ball and a pack of B/C level guys?

Well I revised the package......but even that package would be better than what they gave up.

fellows
06-20-08, 03:41 PM
I believe they moved him back to RF.......Melky might be a good fit for the Mariners.

Melky/Kontos/Betances/Kennedy......ironically enough its more than we offered for Santana, so its not happening.

Then again, maybe we can get a discount if Cash "tells" them he will either go to Seattle or stay in NY.

Hughes was worth a lot more than anyone in that group. Not even close to the Santana offer IMO.

YESSIR!
06-20-08, 04:57 PM
Hughes was worth a lot more than anyone in that group. Not even close to the Santana offer IMO.

I agree. But if bedard could be had for that package I take it in a minute. And this is from a guy who doesnt really like Bedard.

ChinMusic
06-20-08, 06:34 PM
So then, who plays second?

No Who plays first. What is on second.

just-blaze
06-20-08, 10:21 PM
Hughes was worth a lot more than anyone in that group. Not even close to the Santana offer IMO.

Seeing as Bedard is having back spasms, I guess its all moot, but Hughes was on the table for a week....supposedly.....I wasnt referring to that package.

Even if he was it was Hughes, Melky, and something else that I cant remember.

So essentially we are looking at Hughes/other prospect vs. Betances/Kontos/Kennedy

Its not that far apart.

YanksFan1992
06-21-08, 06:07 PM
Some analysis on our chances for Bedard:



Disregarding any chance at Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlian, of course, leaves the Yankees’ chances slim. Their top prospects, left fielder Austin Jackson, right fielder Jose Tabata, catcher/first baseman Jesus Montero and right-hander Alan Horne, have lost some luster as a group over the past two seasons.

Tabata has battled injuries and Jackson’s performances haven’t exactly been star-worthy, though his future is probably still fairly bright. If he was a legit center field prospect, he’d be a candidate to lead such a package, but he profiles better in left.

Horne is probably a back-end starter or reliever and Montero, a right-handed power bat, is not going to catch long-term and is at least three years away.

Ian Kennedy’s struggles make him a lot less attractive than he was last winter and it doesn’t appear the Yankees are too keen in trading Robinson Cano.

Unless the rest of the potential suitors bow out or the Yankees offer up three or four of their top six prospects, Bedard is probably going to end up elsewhere.


http://prospectinsider.com/2008/06/19/the-market-for-erik-bedard/

fellows
06-21-08, 07:22 PM
Some analysis on our chances for Bedard:



http://prospectinsider.com/2008/06/19/the-market-for-erik-bedard/


I thought Jackson was a potential CF. If he is so fast why would he profile better in left? He's having a nice year in AA and hitting for some power lately.

27IsNext
06-21-08, 07:27 PM
Some analysis on our chances for Bedard:



http://prospectinsider.com/2008/06/19/the-market-for-erik-bedard/

The site's complete lack of knowledge in regards to Yankee prospects should tell you all you need to know. Jackson profiles as a center fielder, Horne has the potential to be a number two or three starter and Montero has shown no signs of needing to move at this time.

Plus, the Ms won't be getting an A prospect for Bedard.

Pinstripe Pride23
06-21-08, 07:45 PM
The site's complete lack of knowledge in regards to Yankee prospects should tell you all you need to know. Jackson profiles as a center fielder, Horne has the potential to be a number two or three starter and Montero has shown no signs of needing to move at this time.

Plus, the Ms won't be getting an A prospect for Bedard.


Amazing. Have to wonder where these folks got their info.

DJ27
06-21-08, 07:58 PM
Amazing. Have to wonder where these folks got their info.

Gammons?? ;););)

Pinstripe Pride23
06-21-08, 08:00 PM
Gammons?? ;););)

Nice!! :roflmao:

just-blaze
06-21-08, 11:44 PM
Some analysis on our chances for Bedard:



http://prospectinsider.com/2008/06/19/the-market-for-erik-bedard/

Outside of IPK.......I really believe that these are based on scouting reports and "expert" insight analysis from the beginning of last year.......they all sound familiar to me.

cherrygarcia510
06-22-08, 11:53 AM
Mariners are pretty much screwed. There is little to no chance of getting equal value back to what they gave up (jones,tillman, sherill), and the fans cannot be happy about that. At the same time there is no reason to try to keep Bedard when the team is absolute garbage. I think the mariners and fans just have to accept they made a poor trade and accept lesser value and keep on blaming Bavasi for setting back the franchise

27IsNext
06-22-08, 04:40 PM
Mariners are pretty much screwed. There is little to no chance of getting equal value back to what they gave up (jones,tillman, sherill), and the fans cannot be happy about that. At the same time there is no reason to try to keep Bedard when the team is absolute garbage. I think the mariners and fans just have to accept they made a poor trade and accept lesser value and keep on blaming Bavasi for setting back the franchise

Agreed. The only way they get an A prospect in return is if some team gets really desperate at the deadline. Hopefully that won't be us.

ArodMVP217
06-22-08, 05:50 PM
and what are those scouting reports in the minors saying? He has succeeded at every level in the minors. In 2006 draft he was hyped as a potenial first rounder and is ranked by every sports publication that tracks prospects as no worse than the 4th rated prospect on a team in the top 5 in prospect developement. Now while I do know Masterson is not a top 2 starter in the bigs, probably at best a 4th, and his success so far in the bigs has been from a small sample, one cannot ignore the facts of his success and the fact that in reports he is thought of as a 3rd or 4th starter. So tell me, what negative scouting reports are you refering to?

that made me laugh

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 06:04 PM
Mariners are pretty much screwed. There is little to no chance of getting equal value back to what they gave up (jones,tillman, sherill), athe fans cannot be happy about that. At the same time there is no reason to try to keep Bedard when the team is absolute garbage. I think the mariners and fans just have to accept they made a poor trade and accept lesser value and keep on blaming Bavasi for setting back the franchise

there is always next year though. Remember, pitching is a commodity. The Bedard trade was probably the last straw for Bavasi BUT you can better believe Pelekoudas doesn't want that to be his first straw.

Now I am sure some on here will say "what does he care he is an interim GM." But he is still employed by the Mariners, he has a stake in their future. Even if he goes back to doing what he did before he was giving the term "interim GM" he still wants the team to succeed. Now maybe his professional goals are to be a GM, why mess that up with a bad Bedard deal?

Sure Seattle might deal Bedard but they are under no pressure to do so. Bedard still is one season away from free agency. And like you said the fans and ownership are aware what they gave up to get him. Now do they sell the product they bought 9 months ago for 10 dollars today for five? I dont think that will even remotely be considered. If the Mariners deal Bedard it will be for something of significant value, not what they gave up but they will at the very least recoup 3/4's what they gave up. And you can better believe that teams will line up to do so. Whether it be Philadelphia, Chicago, Texas, Boston, St.Louis, Los Angeles, New York, or any other team that thinks they have a shot. Teams will pony up, afterall pitching is a commodity. Pitching wins you world series.

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 06:09 PM
that made me laugh

let me ask you this, did it make you laugh as hard when posters on this same chat board declared that IPK alone was worth Johan Santana?

ArodMVP217
06-22-08, 06:22 PM
give up

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 06:31 PM
give what up?

jeterlove
06-22-08, 06:54 PM
It amazes me that there are still people who consider IPK worthy of being a center piece of any big deal.

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 06:59 PM
IPK can still be a good pitcher but right now his trade value is very very low. That being said, even at his best he is a control pitcher. Teams tend not to go ga-ga over control pitchers. So his trade value will always be limited.

27IsNext
06-22-08, 06:59 PM
It amazes me that there are still people who consider IPK worthy of being a center piece of any big deal.

If I'm the Mariners, I would have to strongly consider a deal like Kennedy, Horne and Gardner/Melky for Bedard, because I wouldn't be so sure anyone else would have anything better to offer.

jeterlove
06-22-08, 07:00 PM
They would be on crack to accept that deal

A below league average CF and Kennedy who looked awful and seems like a back of the rotation type pitcher

27IsNext
06-22-08, 07:06 PM
They would be on crack to accept that deal

A below league average CF and Kennedy who looked awful and seems like a back of the rotation type pitcher

Not really. Kennedy still projects as a good middle- to back-end-of-the-rotation starter, and Horne has the stuff to be a good number two or three pitcher. Melky and/or Gardner really aren't anything too special, but they do have age on their side, particularly Melky.

It's basically a bunch of B prospects. And the Mariners won't be getting an A prospect for a guy who just got his ERA under 4 and has battled injuries all season (and is currently fighting back spasms).

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 07:23 PM
If I'm the Mariners, I would have to strongly consider a deal like Kennedy, Horne and Gardner/Melky for Bedard, because I wouldn't be so sure anyone else would have anything better to offer.

oh my god, now that is laughable. But for argument sake say Seattle does value Bedard more than the rest of baseball. Whose problem is that? Is it the Mariners whom actually behold Bedard or is it the team that actually covets Bedard? How do you make that argument to Mariners so they'll tade your Bedard? "Hey we want what you have BUT we don't want it that much." Bedard is not a free agent after this season, there is still plenty of time left on the clock. And you don't have to be a Celtics fan to see how fast things can change in one calender year. Like I stated early, there is no pressure on the Mariners at all to deal Bedard. So what makes you think the Mariners will deal him to a team desperate to make a run at the Series this year and at the same time hurt any chance that Mariners have next year?

jimmykey2
06-22-08, 07:27 PM
Not really. Kennedy still projects as a good middle- to back-end-of-the-rotation starter, and Horne has the stuff to be a good number two or three pitcher. Melky and/or Gardner really aren't anything too special, but they do have age on their side, particularly Melky.

It's basically a bunch of B prospects. And the Mariners won't be getting an A prospect for a guy who just got his ERA under 4 and has battled injuries all season (and is currently fighting back spasms).

Based on what they gave up for him, they won't settle for a package without an A prospect.

The only way I see a Bedard move happening is if someone blows them away or the Mariners decide they just don't want him around anymore. Even if the latter is true, there's no rush for them to make a deal.

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 07:44 PM
Not really. Kennedy still projects as a good middle- to back-end-of-the-rotation starter, and Horne has the stuff to be a good number two or three pitcher. Melky and/or Gardner really aren't anything too special, but they do have age on their side, particularly Melky.

It's basically a bunch of B prospects. And the Mariners won't be getting an A prospect for a guy who just got his ERA under 4 and has battled injuries all season (and is currently fighting back spasms).

yet despite all the negatives you stated against Bedard, you want him still..funny how that works.

What I find comical is that you think Kennedy right now is a big piece to major trade but in the same breathe you scoff at the notion that Masterson can be. It matters not that in almost the same amount of innings pitched in the bigs this season Kennedy is nowhere near as affective as Masterson. You know those three nice starts last year where impressive (even though it was still only 19 innings sample size) but what has Kennedy done lately? Oh, he is injured that is right. Injuries have always been notorious for driving the price up for young pitchers and getting GM's to look past current track record. Now that is laughable.

YASS
06-22-08, 08:31 PM
If I'm the Mariners, I would have to strongly consider a deal like Kennedy, Horne and Gardner/Melky for Bedard, because I wouldn't be so sure anyone else would have anything better to offer.
I've said this before. I think a package of Kennedy, Horne, and Gardner might get the deal done.

Would the Yankees make this trade?

jeterlove
06-22-08, 08:50 PM
Again, Kennedy isn't going to be the center piece of ANY big deal.

That would be an awful trade for Seattle, just awful.

ArodMVP217
06-22-08, 09:18 PM
how aboot Ian Patrick Kennedy, Juan Miguel Miranda, choice of Cabrera/Gardner, and maybe Jairo and/or Cox?

They are not going to get equal value to what they gave up for Him, not now and not later as puck so keenly speculates.

primetime714
06-22-08, 09:24 PM
Based on what they gave up for him, they won't settle for a package without an A prospect.

The only way I see a Bedard move happening is if someone blows them away or the Mariners decide they just don't want him around anymore. Even if the latter is true, there's no rush for them to make a deal.

It depends on what you classify as an "A" prospect. They gave up a true "A" prospect in Adam Jones for Bedard and now by putting him on the market they are proclaiming that a clear mistake. They're not likely to get a prospect as good as him in any trade of Bedard.

This team also needs quantity just as much as it needs quality. They have holes throughout their lineup and pitching staff. They may be more likely to accept a deal that include several good prospects vs. one really good prospect and lesser prospects. That's why I think they would have interest in a deal that included 3 or 4 of the following guys: IPK, Horne, Melky, Tabata, Cox, Ohlendorf, Betances, and Melancon.

Cheesyhoboe
06-22-08, 09:25 PM
They would take that deal if they were desperate and if we were the only ones offering. You guys seriously think a weak deal like that will get it done? Besides, Kennedy's value is at an all-time low right now. Not a good time to trade him unless you think he'll actually somehow get WORSE.

just-blaze
06-22-08, 09:32 PM
Again, Kennedy isn't going to be the center piece of ANY big deal.

That would be an awful trade for Seattle, just awful.

It would be stupid of them to do it based on injuries and performances, but it wouldnt be awful.

Kennedy and Horne would jump up to be 2 of their best pitching prospects automatically and Gardner is one of the best CF in AAA currently.

Not what they gave up, but not awful.

Allan
06-22-08, 09:34 PM
It depends on what you classify as an "A" prospect. They gave up a true "A" prospect in Adam Jones for Bedard and now by putting him on the market they are proclaiming that a clear mistake. They're not likely to get a prospect as good as him in any trade of Bedard.

This team also needs quantity just as much as it needs quality. They have holes throughout their lineup and pitching staff. They may be more likely to accept a deal that include several good prospects vs. one really good prospect and lesser prospects. That's why I think they would have interest in a deal that included 3 or 4 of the following guys: IPK, Horne, Melky, Tabata, Cox, Ohlendorf, Betances, and Melancon.
Betances and Melancon as pieces in a 4 player swap for Bedard would bring an end to all the Ken Phelps for Jay Buhner talk.:uhh:

fellows
06-22-08, 09:39 PM
They would take that deal if they were desperate and if we were the only ones offering. You guys seriously think a weak deal like that will get it done? Besides, Kennedy's value is at an all-time low right now. Not a good time to trade him unless you think he'll actually somehow get WORSE.

If Carlos Gomez can land Johan Santana anything is possible.

ArodMVP217
06-22-08, 09:48 PM
It depends on what you classify as an "A" prospect. They gave up a true "A" prospect in Adam Jones for Bedard and now by putting him on the market they are proclaiming that a clear mistake. They're not likely to get a prospect as good as him in any trade of Bedard.

This team also needs quantity just as much as it needs quality. They have holes throughout their lineup and pitching staff. They may be more likely to accept a deal that include several good prospects vs. one really good prospect and lesser prospects. That's why I think they would have interest in a deal that included 3 or 4 of the following guys: IPK, Horne, Melky, Tabata, Cox, Ohlendorf, Betances, and Melancon.

that is why i proposed Miranda; word on the street is that SEA pitchers don't like kenji's game calling. Clement has soo much more value at C, and there is def a market for kenji, while miranda is a smarter option that sexson at this point

hockeypuck2008
06-22-08, 11:28 PM
that is why i proposed Miranda; word on the street is that SEA pitchers don't like kenji's game calling. Clement has soo much more value at C, and there is def a market for kenji, while miranda is a smarter option that sexson at this point

oh my god, the hits keep on coming. Miranda is a smarter option than Sexson but that is no reason to trade Bedard for that proposal. A rock is a smarter option than Sexson right now but it doesn't mean the change should be made for changes sake.