PDA

View Full Version : 2009 rotation



Retire21
05-22-08, 11:33 AM
With Joba becoming a starter, what ramifications does this have on what the Yankees are thinking in terms of the 2009 rotation?

I thought there might be an outside chance the Yanks would bring Moose back on a 1-year deal if he continued to pitch well. But if you're going to pencil in Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy, who is the other starter?

I am pretty sure Andy will want to come back in 2009- he has more or less said that the new stadium will help to influence that decision. The only way I see him retiring is if he just has a disaster season and doesn't want to invest in getting ready for the grind- and that's assuming the Yanks want him. I think the Yankees would value Pettitte if for no other reason that he's a left-handed starter. If you asked me now, I expect Pettitte to pitch for the Yankees in 2009.

So is Moose the odd-man out? At the beginning of the season, I would have thought it was a foregone conclusion that 2008 was it for him in a Yankee uniform, but now that he's pitching pretty well, I could see his stay extended. I would be surprised if he retired, especially if he ends up winning a dozen or so games in 2008 and with the money that is there to be had and the fact that he is probably a borderline HOFer right now- anything he can add to his win total would help to solidify his candidacy. What do you guys think about the rotation in 2009? Sabathia? Pettitte? Moose?

THEBOSS84
05-22-08, 11:35 AM
I think the Yanks will cut ties with Andy after this season, especially if he continues to struggle. They will replace him with CC forming this:

Wang
CC
Joba
Hughes
IPK

primetime714
05-22-08, 11:44 AM
I think the Yanks will cut ties with Andy after this season, especially if he continues to struggle. They will replace him with CC forming this:

Wang
CC
Joba
Hughes
IPK

I agree. Moose is definitely not coming back unless he wants a minor league deal. Andy also probably won't be back. Sabathia adds the established top of the rotation pitcher we need. And IPK should get some competition from Horne and maybe even Rasner for that #5 spot.

Retire21
05-22-08, 11:49 AM
I suppose it is possible the Yankees will sour enough on Kennedy that he will not be a "lock" for the 2009 rotation. I like IPK and hope that doesn't happen, but right now.............

Sabathia........ hmm...... just not sure he's worth the long-term contract/$$$ he'll be seeking. Big body, possible weight issues, etc. I'd rather grow from within than sign the big fella- at least that's my stance now. I'm a big Pettitte fan, so I'd like to see him back, too, but obviously he has to decide if he wants to (I think he does) AND whether the Yanks want him back.

27IsNext
05-22-08, 01:01 PM
C.C.
Wang
Pettitte (if he agrees to come back for less money than $16 million)
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
Rasner (longman)

themgmt
05-22-08, 01:15 PM
CC will likley not be a Yankee.

I love how people just pencil in free agents like they are in a field for the picking.

Texeira says hello too.

Tehasguard
05-22-08, 01:16 PM
Wang
Pettitte
Sheets
Joba
Hughes

CC, if we can get him... good

trades? Oswalt/...

THEBOSS84
05-22-08, 01:21 PM
CC will likley not be a Yankee.

I love how people just pencil in free agents like they are in a field for the picking.

Texeira says hello too.

Um he is in a field for the picking. It's called free agency.

Bub
05-22-08, 02:06 PM
Wang
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Hughes
Rasner
Kennedy (6)

Yankee Tripper
05-22-08, 02:11 PM
CC will likley not be a Yankee.

I love how people just pencil in free agents like they are in a field for the picking.

Texeira says hello too.Considering they have not signed extensions with their current teams, are the best players available at their position, and the Yankees have and will likely to continue to have the highest payroll and the Yankees have an obvious need at both position then barring them not hitting FA or an announcement from one of them that they do not under any circimstances want to play for the Yankees I think it is safe to assume the Yanks will at least make a market value offers or better on both of those guys.

JeffWeaverFan
05-22-08, 02:24 PM
I do think the Yankees will make a big push at CC. Or possibly Yu Darvish if he is posted. I wouldn't be shocked if Moose was re-signed to a 1 year deal, but obviously that would be a bit of a surprise. I would offer Mussina salary arbitration if he keeps pitching well.

Wang
CC/FA pitcher
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy

Rasner, McCutchen, and Horne could all beat out either Hughes or Kennedy for the 4 and 5 spots. And Moose or Pettitte could also be in that mix too if either is back.

JohnnyDamonfan
05-22-08, 02:29 PM
Wang

CC

Hughes

Joba

Kennedy

wang+cano=future
05-22-08, 02:35 PM
CC will likley not be a Yankee.

I love how people just pencil in free agents like they are in a field for the picking.

Texeira says hello too.

It is speculation of a rotation in 2009. Sabathia will most likely be a FA after this season, and it is entirely possible for him to be signed by the Yanks. So it is not unreasonable for people to speculate that he will be in the rotation 2009.

Anyway I am agreeing with most here that it will look like:

CC
Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy/Horne/Mccutchen

themgmt
05-22-08, 02:42 PM
I know it's a guess of what people think the rotation will be in this thread, but people have been penciling him in since last year. They've been doing the same for Texeira for several years. It's not a forgone conclusion and in my opinion, I don't see it happening.

He isn't in the field for picking, he'll pretty much get to choose where ever he wants to go with the teams that can afford him. He might end up a Yankee, I don't see it though. I don't see the Yankees starting any long term contracts with pitchers in 09, not just Sabathia.

THEBOSS84
05-22-08, 02:43 PM
I know it's a guess of what people think the rotation will be in this thread, but people have been penciling him in since last year. They've been doing the same for Texeira for several years. It's not a forgone conclusion and in my opinion, I don't see it happening.

Money talks, and we'll have plenty of it coming off the books after this season which can be used on these two.

JohnnyDamonfan
05-22-08, 02:44 PM
I'm kinda concerned with CC'S weight though and I really don't want us to give up a 7 or 8 year contract for him. WHat I love is that we have option B. How good are Horne or Mccutchen? Do you guys think there's any chance we can see their stuff sometime this year ? I've heard a lot about these 2 guys but unfortunately I don't pay attention Minor League stats.

ArodMVP217
05-22-08, 03:32 PM
Carsten-Charles? would be a good pickup. you can't live in fear after brown, pavano, igawa.

Yankee Tripper
05-22-08, 04:12 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if Moose was re-signed to a 1 year deal, but obviously that would be a bit of a surprise. I would offer Mussina salary arbitration if he keeps pitching well.

Please god no to both. Moose would accept arbitration in a heartbeat and laugh all the way to the bank with his one year $9M deal is abr guys can't have their pay cut more to less than 80% of current salary. We are forced to hope Moose pitches reasonably well this year because our options aren't exactly pretty right now but there is no rational reason to bring Moose back at that salary.

teknetic
05-22-08, 04:30 PM
I know it's a guess of what people think the rotation will be in this thread, but people have been penciling him in since last year. They've been doing the same for Texeira for several years. It's not a forgone conclusion and in my opinion, I don't see it happening.

He isn't in the field for picking, he'll pretty much get to choose where ever he wants to go with the teams that can afford him. He might end up a Yankee, I don't see it though. I don't see the Yankees starting any long term contracts with pitchers in 09, not just Sabathia.

They'll have the money and then some to add both Tex and CC (both aren't likely, but I don't see how you can say either one isn't likely) There won't be any blind bidding, if the Yankees are in it, they won't be be outbid. I was against signing Sabathia, but it would definitely bolster the rotation, though I'd be weary of a 6+ year contract.

Rastven
05-22-08, 04:33 PM
I see Moose coming back on an incentives loaded deal if he thinks can get other year out of his arm.
I could also see Hughes not being a lock for the rotation full time if this injury means that he can't log the innings he needs to to develop more.
I could see the Brother Dumb over spending on CC and I'm not 100% sure it's smart (history says hard throwing lefties do well in YS but I'm concerned about issues with CC including contract length.
I don't see the lure of the Stadium being enough if Andy continues to pitch poorly unless he wants a redemption year and feels healthy.

When it's all said and if you can guarantee health and success
CC
Wang
Hughes
Joba
Kennedy
Rasner (long man)
Assorted AAA players like Horne et al waiting in case of injury.

Mark19
05-22-08, 04:46 PM
Seems like one of those situations in which one is forced to look at relative value. Sabathia will likely command 6-7 seasons and $110-130 million.

Due to his health, Sheets would probably have to settle for a shorter deal with more incentives a la AJ Burnett. Perhaps 3-4 seasons at $11-13 million per with the ability to bump it up considerably with innings targets.

Oliver Perez is the youngest so he could likely expect to receive 5-6 years at $12-13 million for a total of $65-75 million.

I'm not sure which of those guys offers the best value. We'll have to wait and see. Personally, I'd go for the shortest deal. Sheets would be my preference and I'd also bring in an innings-eater on a one year deal just to provide some competition for Hughes, Kennedy and Joba. Randy Wolf would be just fine unless Rasner shows some staying power. If Andy wants to return, it would have to be a much cheaper deal. $16 million is just way too much money for a 4 ERA - 6 inning guy.

Wang
Sheets
Chamberlain
Hughes
Kennedy/Wolf/Rasner

or

Wang
Sheets
Pettite
Chamberlain
Hughes/Kennedy

THEBOSS84
05-22-08, 04:48 PM
Say no to Sheets. He has averaged 133 IP per season over the past 3 years. I rather give more years and dollars to the pitcher (CC) who has proven he can pitch successfully in the AL and is a proven 200 IP per season lock. He's a lefty as well.

Mark19
05-22-08, 04:50 PM
Say no to Sheets. He has averaged 133 IP per season over the past 3 years. I rather give more years and dollars to the pitcher (CC) who has proven he can pitch successfully in the AL and is a proven 200 IP per season lock. He's a lefty as well.

Being a lefty really helps Sabathia but looking at his girth, his age and his mileage. I can't help but feel like he'll eventually break down. I can't think of a single $100 million pitcher who hasn't been a major let-down.

HelloNewman
05-22-08, 04:56 PM
Wang
Sabathia
Hughes
Chamberlain
Horne

Mr. Mxylsplk
05-22-08, 05:03 PM
Please god no to both. Moose would accept arbitration in a heartbeat and laugh all the way to the bank with his one year $9M deal is abr guys can't have their pay cut more to less than 80% of current salary. We are forced to hope Moose pitches reasonably well this year because our options aren't exactly pretty right now but there is no rational reason to bring Moose back at that salary.
That only applies to players under a team's control, not free agents who have the option to accept or reject arbitration. For free agents like Moose, a team can submit any arbitration figure they want, with no restrictions on a reduction in salary. Unless he continues to pitch so well, which I think is highly unlikely, I agree with you on not offering him arbitration. But they wouldn't be bound to a minimum of 80% of this year's salary if they do.

Yankee Tripper
05-22-08, 05:17 PM
That only applies to players under a team's control, not free agents who have the option to accept or reject arbitration. For free agents like Moose, a team can submit any arbitration figure they want, with no restrictions on a reduction in salary. Unless he continues to pitch so well, which I think is highly unlikely, I agree with you on not offering him arbitration. But they wouldn't be bound to a minimum of 80% of this year's salary if they do.I'm no expert on the CBA and could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the 80% rule applies to all arbitration cases. It has to do with draft pick compensation for type A & B free agents as well as retaing players who don't have the service time to file for FA.

bullitt245
05-22-08, 05:49 PM
I'm kinda concerned with CC'S weight though and I really don't want us to give up a 7 or 8 year contract for him. WHat I love is that we have option B. How good are Horne or Mccutchen? Do you guys think there's any chance we can see their stuff sometime this year ? I've heard a lot about these 2 guys but unfortunately I don't pay attention Minor League stats.

I've seen McCutchen pitch in person when I was at school (Thunder). He had 11 Ks through I think, 6 innings. It honestly looked like he was toying with the opposition. Granted, that was just AA ball. I'd like to see how he does in Scranton. I think he can be a part of the Yankees' long term rotation plans, especially if Moose, Pettitte, and Kennedy continue to falter. There are a lot of good young arms in the system, I am tired of shelling out big bucks for an over the hill vet. However, I wouldn't be opposed to shelling out the big bucks for Yu Darvish. We have the money and he is still very young.

And who knows, if Rasner continues the rest of the season pitching as he has, he can have a place on this team. Maybe if not the rotation, at least as a long man or something like that. It's as if people are just waiting for him to fall off. I hope he continues to prove people wrong.

Mr. Mxylsplk
05-22-08, 05:56 PM
I'm no expert on the CBA and could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the 80% rule applies to all arbitration cases. It has to do with draft pick compensation for type A & B free agents as well as retaing players who don't have the service time to file for FA.
No, if you go the section of the CBA on free agency, starting on page 70, you'll see in part 3, on the bottom of page 72, that the rules on maximum salary reduction do not apply.

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf

Yankee Tripper
05-22-08, 06:03 PM
No, if you go the section of the CBA on free agency, starting on page 70, you'll see in part 3, on the bottom of page 72, that the rules on maximum salary reduction do not apply.

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/pa/pdf/cba_english.pdf

learn something new every day. seeing as the CBA is a 241 page document I can see why I've never bother to become an expert. Thanks for the link though it's kind of neat to skim through it.

Mr. Mxylsplk
05-22-08, 06:06 PM
learn something new every day. seeing as the CBA is a 241 page document I can see why I've never bother to become an expert. Thanks for the link though it's kind of neat to skim through it.
Yeah, it's not exactly a quick read. ;)

PeppermintPatty
05-22-08, 06:11 PM
Wang
Sabathia
Hughes
Chamberlain
Horne

That's exactly my guess. With Kennedy thrown in the mix compete with Horne for that 5th spot.

Yankee Tripper
05-22-08, 06:16 PM
call me crazy but I'd love to see

CC
Wang
Sheets
Chamberlain
Hughes

The rest of the kids can wait in the wings for Sheets to have his yearly DL stint or we find out Hughes really shouldn't have been the #1 picthing prospect.

nnysiny
05-22-08, 09:54 PM
ideally:

CC (L)
Wang (R)
Andy (L)
Hughes (R)
Joba (R)
with Ian/Horne as the #6/longman

but more likely:

CC (L)
Wang (R)
Hughes (R)
Joba (R)
Ian (R)
with Horne/Rasner as the #6/longman

JohnnyDamonfan
05-22-08, 11:53 PM
I've seen McCutchen pitch in person when I was at school (Thunder). He had 11 Ks through I think, 6 innings. It honestly looked like he was toying with the opposition. Granted, that was just AA ball. I'd like to see how he does in Scranton. I think he can be a part of the Yankees' long term rotation plans, especially if Moose, Pettitte, and Kennedy continue to falter. There are a lot of good young arms in the system, I am tired of shelling out big bucks for an over the hill vet. However, I wouldn't be opposed to shelling out the big bucks for Yu Darvish. We have the money and he is still very young.

And who knows, if Rasner continues the rest of the season pitching as he has, he can have a place on this team. Maybe if not the rotation, at least as a long man or something like that. It's as if people are just waiting for him to fall off. I hope he continues to prove people wrong.

Yeah, Rasner is real good. I love that guy he will probably keep on winning my only worry about Rasner is Micheal Kay said something yesterday about Aaron Small going 10-0 and then the next year "Coming back down to earth" I'm hoping this is not the case for Rasner but could this possibly be like an Aaron Small year for him and then getting worse?

CC isn't over the Hill yet he's only what 27 maybe 28. He's not so much older then Wang. So I wouldn't have any problem shelling out the big bucks for CC. It's shelling out the lengthy 7 to 8 year contract that he would probably want that scares me. If the Yankees can somehow win big and get CC for five years that's awesome news. But, it's nice to know we've got some pretty good pitchers and it would be nice to see them step up.

mrbawm
05-23-08, 12:59 AM
Yeah, Rasner is real good. I love that guy he will probably keep on winning my only worry about Rasner is Micheal Kay said something yesterday about Aaron Small going 10-0 and then the next year "Coming back down to earth" I'm hoping this is not the case for Rasner but could this possibly be like an Aaron Small year for him and then getting worse?

CC isn't over the Hill yet he's only what 27 maybe 28. He's not so much older then Wang. So I wouldn't have any problem shelling out the big bucks for CC. It's shelling out the lengthy 7 to 8 year contract that he would probably want that scares me. If the Yankees can somehow win big and get CC for five years that's awesome news. But, it's nice to know we've got some pretty good pitchers and it would be nice to see them step up.

Rasner has a much better minor league track record than Small so I don't think it's a fair comparison. Still, who knows.

Abe Frohman
05-23-08, 01:09 AM
Everyone is talking like CC is already a Yankee. I personally want no part of him. Not

that i have anything against the guy, But this looks exactly like the kind of big money

contract mistake that we've made in the past and are going to be rid of in 09. Hes

big, looks injury prone and just all - around looks like a big mistake. lets not get off

this 7 year boat ride only to jump on the next one. it hasnt been a fun journey through

all these bum contracts. Id much rather sign Big Tex, a GG 1st baseman that we

really need and go from there. Just cause CC is available doesnt mean we HAVE to

sign him.

Serge
05-23-08, 01:12 AM
I feel that Wang, Joba, Hughes and Ian are locks. That leaves the last spot up to Rasner and possibly CC. I have almost no doubt that CC will be better than Rasner at the end of this season, but if Rasner continues to pitch like he has it will be a much tougher decision.

Vin
05-23-08, 01:49 AM
I'd rather have Yu Darvish, he's only 21 but he doesn't want to come here. Although if he's really smart he would come here. Pitching against stronger hitters would only make him a better pitcher plus the sick money he's going to get. My bet is he will come here, he's a competitive guy.

Say no to CC, who is another injury waiting to happen.

njdhockey
05-23-08, 03:14 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Horne in the rotation next year.

JohnnyDamonfan
05-23-08, 06:06 AM
Everyone is talking like CC is already a Yankee. I personally want no part of him. Not

that i have anything against the guy, But this looks exactly like the kind of big money

contract mistake that we've made in the past and are going to be rid of in 09. Hes

big, looks injury prone and just all - around looks like a big mistake. lets not get off

this 7 year boat ride only to jump on the next one. it hasnt been a fun journey through

all these bum contracts. Id much rather sign Big Tex, a GG 1st baseman that we

really need and go from there. Just cause CC is available doesnt mean we HAVE to

sign him.

CC is a Cy Young award winner. I think the Yankees would be pretty dumb to not make a run at him. We should at least look into him. I want Teixshara too. I guess I'm just worried about what will happen to another unproven rookie if he's brought into our rotation.(Horne)

Yankee Tripper
05-23-08, 11:31 AM
He's {CC} big, looks injury prone and just all - around looks like a big mistake.

Why do people think this guy is injury prone? He's made at least 28 starts and logged more than 180 IP in every big league season including his rookie year. Nothing in his delivery says injury risk.

I agree the Yanks may not get him but if they are going to spend big money on a FA pitcher, this is the guy I want them to do it on.

NYDCYankee
05-23-08, 11:41 AM
I love Ben Sheets but he is going to be 30 in July. I would still like to see if they could pay him big bank to bring him in for 3 years.

MaximMan121
05-23-08, 11:44 AM
CC is a Cy Young award winner. I think the Yankees would be pretty dumb to not make a run at him. We should at least look into him. I want Teixshara too. I guess I'm just worried about what will happen to another unproven rookie if he's brought into our rotation.(Horne)

Let's go after Bartolo Colon while we're at it.

:o

Yankee Tripper
05-23-08, 11:51 AM
Let's go after Bartolo Colon while we're at it.

:oI was not aware that CC was coming off back to back injury plauged seasons. And that CC suddenly got 7 years older - must be Tejada like thing.

teknetic
05-23-08, 12:21 PM
Let's go after Bartolo Colon while we're at it.

:o

Colon was probably the third most "deserving" of the Cy that year.

bullitt245
05-23-08, 06:02 PM
Yeah, Rasner is real good. I love that guy he will probably keep on winning my only worry about Rasner is Micheal Kay said something yesterday about Aaron Small going 10-0 and then the next year "Coming back down to earth" I'm hoping this is not the case for Rasner but could this possibly be like an Aaron Small year for him and then getting worse?

CC isn't over the Hill yet he's only what 27 maybe 28. He's not so much older then Wang. So I wouldn't have any problem shelling out the big bucks for CC. It's shelling out the lengthy 7 to 8 year contract that he would probably want that scares me. If the Yankees can somehow win big and get CC for five years that's awesome news. But, it's nice to know we've got some pretty good pitchers and it would be nice to see them step up.

True, over the hill might not have been the best word choice. I was more trying to stress the point that it seems for the first time in a long time this Yankee team has a gluttony of young arms throughout the entire system. I find it hard to believe that 3-4 can't stick and we have to get these gigantic contracts signed. Let's face it, CC won't want a short term deal. He's going to want big bucks guaranteed for a long amount of time. So yeah, maybe he'd come in and do well for us in 09 and 10 but then we get a little tired of him, and realize the mistake we made in investing so much money. CC is far from a bad pitcher, anybody can see that. In fact, he's quite the opposite.

I just seem to have a lot of confidence in the farm system and would like to see what happens with it. Another signing can be made, but it might not have to be the ace of the rotation.

Yankee Tripper
05-23-08, 06:08 PM
I just seem to have a lot of confidence in the farm system and would like to see what happens with it. Another signing can be made, but it might not have to be the ace of the rotation.
But why not sign a proven ace to go with Wang and let the kids duke it out for the 3, 4 and 5 slots? To me that would be more prudent than signing an innings eater type and hoping for the farm to realize their full potential. As the saying goes, you can never have too much pitching and if we find some how that we do, wouldn't it be nice to be able to pull off an Edinson Volquez - Josh Hamilton type trade?

27IsNext
05-23-08, 06:48 PM
I was originally against signing C.C. because of health concerns of him being so heavy, but I think it's becoming increasingly obvious that the amount of pressure on Hughes and Kennedy has caused them to perform below what they normally would. Having a top three of Sabathia, Wang and Pettitte next season would take the pressure off of them and allow them to develop at a normal rate.

ArodMVP217
05-23-08, 07:06 PM
we won't want cc to have too much pressure either, so we should sign Ben Sheets and let phil, ian and joba fight it out for 3 spots!

nvm. that is irriesponsible, but i want to give my canadien brother, rich harden a flier if beane doesn't trade him, because Beane might not pick up his 9M option.

PeppermintPatty
05-23-08, 07:17 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Horne in the rotation next year.

Especially if he pitches well in AAA this year.

yank4life2005
05-23-08, 08:02 PM
Wang
Sabathia
Chamberlain
Pettite
Hughes

or

Wang
Sabathia
Harden
Hughes
Chamberlain

primetime714
05-23-08, 09:46 PM
I know it's a guess of what people think the rotation will be in this thread, but people have been penciling him in since last year. They've been doing the same for Texeira for several years. It's not a forgone conclusion and in my opinion, I don't see it happening.

He isn't in the field for picking, he'll pretty much get to choose where ever he wants to go with the teams that can afford him. He might end up a Yankee, I don't see it though. I don't see the Yankees starting any long term contracts with pitchers in 09, not just Sabathia.

Not many teams can/are willing to pay him. And not many teams can offer a winning atmosphere like the Yankees can. No, its not a forgone conclusion that he will be Yankee. However if he reaches FA you have to figure we'll be the favorite to land him. With Pettitte and Moose likely gone we'll need an established top of the rotation pitcher. Plus after what happened with Santana this offseason you have to figure that Hank is going to be going after Sabathia really hard.

With about 70-80M coming off the books you know we're going to be signing some big name players this offseason. I would be VERY surprised if we didn't sign one of Sabathia or Teixeira. Personally I think its more likely that we sign both of them than not signing either.

surge511
05-23-08, 09:55 PM
Pettitte has stated that in coming back for '08, he was likely making his decision to stay in '09, as well. He is only 35 years old right now, and is still pitching very well. And of anyone on the team, I still want him pitching the big game for us. So I really think he isn't going anywhere. And at $16 million, and will all the young guns as possiblities, I have my doubts about whether the team will be willing to spend a ridiculous amount of money on Sabathia. My guess is that they bring Pettitte back and make a big run at Teixeira.

primetime714
05-23-08, 10:09 PM
Pettitte has stated that in coming back for '08, he was likely making his decision to stay in '09, as well. He is only 35 years old right now, and is still pitching very well. And of anyone on the team, I still want him pitching the big game for us. So I really think he isn't going anywhere. And at $16 million, and will all the young guns as possiblities, I have my doubts about whether the team will be willing to spend a ridiculous amount of money on Sabathia. My guess is that they bring Pettitte back and make a big run at Teixeira.

When has he stated this? I remember hearing him say that pitching in the new stadium would be tempting, but I certainly don't remember him saying he was definitely or even likely coming back in 09'.

I personally don't see us giving up years of Sabathia for 1 more year of Pettitte. I just can't see Hank not making him priority number 1 if he hits FA. You can tell he definitely already regrets not picking up Santana. I don't think he'll let another under 30 left handed Cy Young get away. Especially when this time all it would cost is money and a draft pick.

smckdwn989
05-23-08, 10:48 PM
2009 Rotation:

Sabathia
Wang
Pettitte
Chamberlain
Hughes

i just don't see the yankees going with 3 kids in the rotation... this way we have a great mix of youth (joba, phil), prime years (CC, Chien-Ming and Experience (Andy)

Krall
05-24-08, 01:56 AM
I think the Yanks will cut ties with Andy after this season, especially if he continues to struggle. They will replace him with CC forming this:

Wang
CC
Joba
Hughes
IPK

I don't get that, CC is struggling so in the same vein as Andy why would you take CC? At least we know Andy can pitch in NY and pitch well in NY in big games. Frankly I'm sick of the revolving door of SP free agents we sign who go bust.

Hello, Kennedy? If he struggles anymore he'll be in AAA and the same can be said of Hughes if the broken rib doesn't turn out to be his 'issue'.

themgmt
05-24-08, 10:21 AM
Who says CC even wants to be a Yankee? Aside from the $$$ that is.

My prediction is as follows: If Pettitte doesn't return, I still don't think they'll sign any pitcher to a long term deal in 09.


Wang
Pettitte (final year)
Joba
Hughes
IPK

Rasner as the long man. Horne as the spot starter. As Hughes and Kennedy look to solidify their spots, the revolving door begins to see who will fill in Pettitte's spot in 2010. Horne, Brackman, Bettances etc whoever is left may be sent to the pen or traded for future prospects.


The bullpen will have a huge turnover though. Mo, Melancon, Cox, Sanchez, Rasner, either Ohlendorf or Veras, or they resign Bruney. Maybe Edwar or even try out Horne. So many options..

teknetic
05-24-08, 10:53 AM
Who says CC even wants to be a Yankee? Aside from the $$$ that is.


http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/1254/ccfi8.png
http://ballsiest.com/sportsblog/2007/10/09/cc-sabathia-also-a-yankees-fan/cc-sabathiajpg/

FWIW, I don't see them going with the same rotation (minus Moose) as this year to kick off next year.

themgmt
05-24-08, 12:08 PM
Everyone loves the Yankees

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1005/mlb_a_ljames_195.jpg

http://thefeed.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/03/brady.jpg


I do see them going with a very similar rotation, the plan is for IPK, Hughes, and Joba to be in the rotation and you know Wang isn't going anywhere. If Sabathia was becoming a free agent in 2010 I would be more inclined to think the Yankees would sign him. I know I'm in the minority, but the way I see things going, they aren't signing a big pitcher in 2009.

groovitude
05-24-08, 12:30 PM
Everyone is talking like CC is already a Yankee. I personally want no part of him. Not

that i have anything against the guy, But this looks exactly like the kind of big money

contract mistake that we've made in the past and are going to be rid of in 09. Hes

big, looks injury prone and just all - around looks like a big mistake. lets not get off

this 7 year boat ride only to jump on the next one. it hasnt been a fun journey through

all these bum contracts. Id much rather sign Big Tex, a GG 1st baseman that we

really need and go from there. Just cause CC is available doesnt mean we HAVE to

sign him.
The Sausage King of Chicago has a point. I say 'no' to CC unless he agrees to a short contract that will doubtlessly be beaten by another team.

Additionally, if Mussina keeps pitching to such a high level, I think it may be possible we sign him year-to-year. Think about it -- he's put up six wins in the first quarter of the season, which puts him on pace for 24 wins. I don't think anyone thinks he'll win twenty-four games -- but, for arguments' sake, if he somehow finally manages to win twenty, can you really afford to pass on a twenty-game winner?

Krall
05-24-08, 01:07 PM
FWIW, I don't see them going with the same rotation (minus Moose) as this year to kick off next year.

Based on current performance levels?

teknetic
05-24-08, 03:28 PM
Based on current performance levels?

I still expect Hughes and Joba to go through growing pains next year and possibly Kennedy depending on wether he's starting or not. Pettitte's gonna be a year older also.

DJ27
05-24-08, 07:39 PM
I still expect Hughes and Joba to go through growing pains next year and possibly Kennedy depending on wether he's starting or not. Pettitte's gonna be a year older also.

Pettitte will retire.

1- Sabathia
2- Wang
3- Joba
4- Hughes
5- Kennedy/Rasner/Someone else?

ArodMVP217
05-24-08, 07:45 PM
yea, we can afford to pass on a twenty-game winner. lol

YanksFan1992
05-24-08, 07:47 PM
Pettitte will retire.

1- Sabathia
2- Wang
3- Joba
4- Hughes
5- Kennedy/Rasner/Someone else?

That's what I would go with as well.

Our 1-4 would be incredible, and chances are someone else in the organization would step up (be it Kennedy, Rasner or someone esle) and become a solid 5th starter.

PeppermintPatty
05-24-08, 08:01 PM
I still expect Hughes and Joba to go through growing pains next year and possibly Kennedy depending on wether he's starting or not. Pettitte's gonna be a year older also.

That's why I don't see Pettitte back. Looking at him this year he doesn't look as good as he did when he was much younger. His secondary stuff isn't the same. He's getting knocked around the second time trough the line up......
Just isn't the same pitcher in his hay day with the Yankees and is certainly not worth 16 million.
I know there are a lot of Yankee fans who love Pettitte but sometimes you just have to let the pass go.
It's one thing if he is needed back but I don't think as of right now we need him for 09.


I definitely think too Hughes and Joba will have growing pains. While they will have some ML experience it won't be enough for them to pitch like 5 year veterans.
I always compare young pitchers to young quarterbacks: it sometimes takes 3 or 4 years for them to finally get it (Eli Manning anyone?). Mean while they'll have their ups and downs/good and bad games. You just hope they'll keep you/team afloat until they get it.

wang+cano=future
05-24-08, 08:13 PM
Without possible Sabathia signing:

Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
Horne/Rasner

I don't see Pettitte or Moose coming back.....

teknetic
05-24-08, 09:16 PM
That's why I don't see Pettitte back. Looking at him this year he doesn't look as good as he did when he was much younger. His secondary stuff isn't the same. He's getting knocked around the second time trough the line up......
Just isn't the same pitcher in his hay day with the Yankees and is certainly not worth 16 million.
I know there are a lot of Yankee fans who love Pettitte but sometimes you just have to let the pass go.
It's one thing if he is needed back but I don't think as of right now we need him for 09.


I definitely think too Hughes and Joba will have growing pains. While they will have some ML experience it won't be enough for them to pitch like 5 year veterans.
I always compare young pitchers to young quarterbacks: it sometimes takes 3 or 4 years for them to finally get it (Eli Manning anyone?). Mean while they'll have their ups and downs/good and bad games. You just hope they'll keep you/team afloat until they get it.

He's always been a second half pitcher, if he pitches well I can see him coming back. If he doesn't, then sure CC becomes an even bigger (no pun) target. And not a whole lot of guys look as good as they did in their prime when they're in their late 30's.


Without possible Sabathia signing:

Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
Horne/Rasner

I don't see Pettitte or Moose coming back.....

I don't see this happening. Wang's gonna have more IP in the last three years (including the final tally of this year) than all 4 have combined in their respective careers. We've seen the results with two young kids in the rotation, three is pushing it, and four is far too much.

Allan
05-25-08, 12:08 AM
I know it's a guess of what people think the rotation will be in this thread, but people have been penciling him in since last year. They've been doing the same for Texeira for several years. It's not a forgone conclusion and in my opinion, I don't see it happening.

He isn't in the field for picking, he'll pretty much get to choose where ever he wants to go with the teams that can afford him. He might end up a Yankee, I don't see it though. I don't see the Yankees starting any long term contracts with pitchers in 09, not just Sabathia.
That's pretty much what I'm thinking as well. If they want another veteran presense,they might go the trade route . There's a glut of good young pitching in the system. They're not all going to make it and it won't be too much longer before names like Betances, Garcia, McAllister, Brackman will be knocking at the door. So I can see management offering up a couple of young arms like Horne, McCutcheon, Ohlendorf, Britton for a decent veteran to help hold things together for a couple of years. SD's Chris Young comes to mind.... signed thru '10 rather cheaply with a club option for '11. Like you, I don't see them offering megabucks and years to CC or any other pitcher.

surge511
05-25-08, 12:09 AM
Look what happened this year with 2 kids in the rotation. There is no way they will go with 3. Wang is a lock. I would put Pettitte at 80% or higher - he is going to want to pitch in the new stadium, and if his second half is anything similar to a normal Pettitte second half, the team will be happy to have him back. And Hughes and Joba will definitely be there. That leaves one spot. I have a feeling they will want Sabathia - I just don't know if they will be willing to give him the money and years necessary.

teknetic
05-25-08, 12:47 AM
That's pretty much what I'm thinking as well. If they want another veteran presense,they might go the trade route . There's a glut of good young pitching in the system. They're not all going to make it and it won't be too much longer before names like Betances, Garcia, McAllister, Brackman will be knocking at the door. So I can see management offering up a couple of young arms like Horne, McCutcheon, Ohlendorf, Britton for a decent veteran to help hold things together for a couple of years. SD's Chris Young comes to mind.... signed thru '10 rather cheaply with a club option for '11. Like you, I don't see them offering megabucks and years to CC or any other pitcher.

I'd stay away from Young.

'07 at Home: 85IP/1.69ERA Road: 87IP/4.52ERA
'08: Home: 28IP/2.57ERA Road: 26IP/6.58ERA

I wouldn't trade Horne, Cutch, or Olly for a stopgap.

Allan
05-25-08, 01:48 AM
I'd stay away from Young.

'07 at Home: 85IP/1.69ERA Road: 87IP/4.52ERA
'08: Home: 28IP/2.57ERA Road: 26IP/6.58ERA

I wouldn't trade Horne, Cutch, or Olly for a stopgap.
I only use Young as an example. His peripherals aren't so bad. Harang, Gorzelany are other possibilities. But my point is that with so many young arms ( McCutcheon, Horne, Wright, etc) blocked by better young arms ( Joba, Hughes, Kennedy) and others like Sanchez, Melancon, Cox waiting in the wings, that a few of them packaged in a deal might net us a decent starter. Certainly, I'd hold onto guys like Melancon and Sanchez but any of the others would be negotiable.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
05-25-08, 07:26 PM
I only use Young as an example. His peripherals aren't so bad. Harang, Gorzelany are other possibilities. But my point is that with so many young arms ( McCutcheon, Horne, Wright, etc) blocked by better young arms ( Joba, Hughes, Kennedy) and others like Sanchez, Melancon, Cox waiting in the wings, that a few of them packaged in a deal might net us a decent starter. Certainly, I'd hold onto guys like Melancon and Sanchez but any of the others would be negotiable.
Kennedy isn't a better arm than Horne. He's had better minor league numbers and he has a better pedigree, but he isn't the better arm. Kennedy is seriously the guy that should be trade bait.

Prison Mike
05-25-08, 07:29 PM
Without possible Sabathia signing:

Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy
Horne/Rasner

I don't see Pettitte or Moose coming back.....

That scares me.

DJ27
05-26-08, 12:26 AM
That scares me.

Will not happen. If C.C. doesn't sign we will deal some of these young arms for another established ace.

NelsonMuntz
05-26-08, 01:46 AM
Kennedy isn't a better arm than Horne. He's had better minor league numbers and he has a better pedigree, but he isn't the better arm. Kennedy is seriously the guy that should be trade bait.
That's a matter of opinion. Not necessarily saying your wrong, but I don't know how you could state definitively that Horne is "the better arm" at this point in their respective careers.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
05-26-08, 11:17 AM
That's a matter of opinion. Not necessarily saying your wrong, but I don't know how you could state definitively that Horne is "the better arm" at this point in their respective careers.Well I personally define "quality of arm" as velocity and quality of pitches. If you use my defenition then Horne has Kennedy beat. Kennedy has the superior changeup, better command, and better control. Horne has more velocity on his pitches, he has a better fastball, better curve ball, and better slider. Its debatable who the better pitcher is, but personally I don't believe its debatable who has the better arm.

NelsonMuntz
05-26-08, 11:54 AM
Well I personally define "quality of arm" as velocity and quality of pitches. If you use my defenition then Horne has Kennedy beat. Kennedy has the superior changeup, better command, and better control. Horne has more velocity on his pitches, he has a better fastball, better curve ball, and better slider. Its debatable who the better pitcher is, but personally I don't believe its debatable who has the better arm.
Ok, now I understand what you're saying.

CommerceComet
05-26-08, 12:29 PM
While speculation is a lot of fun, it does reveal a serious problem. Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Rasner, and all the minor leaguers (Horne, McCutcheon, etc.) haven't proven that they can start successfully at the big league level. I'm pretty confident that Joba can build up his endurance to become a good starter. I'm concerned that the league will figure out Rasner after they have seen him a couple of more times. I'm not quite sure what to think of Kennedy and Hughes, yet. Certainly, a lot of potential in those two but as of yet, it is unfulfilled. They wouldn't be the first great prospects who didn't pan out if they don't meet expectations.

With our payroll, it is unthinkable that we would have so many question marks in the starting rotation.

PeppermintPatty
05-26-08, 12:49 PM
Will not happen. If C.C. doesn't sign we will deal some of these young arms for another established ace.

Ha foolish thinking. No one is trading their "established ace". Pitching is hard enough to find get. You're not getting any one's big pitcher.

PeppermintPatty
05-26-08, 12:51 PM
That scares me.

Really? Makes me :drool:

smckdwn989
05-26-08, 01:12 PM
Ha foolish thinking. No one is trading their "established ace". Pitching is hard enough to find get. You're not getting any one's big pitcher.

We had our chance for Santana though...

but i know what you mean

BennyTheJetRodriguez
05-26-08, 02:27 PM
While speculation is a lot of fun, it does reveal a serious problem. Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Rasner, and all the minor leaguers (Horne, McCutcheon, etc.) haven't proven that they can start successfully at the big league level. I'm pretty confident that Joba can build up his endurance to become a good starter. I'm concerned that the league will figure out Rasner after they have seen him a couple of more times. I'm not quite sure what to think of Kennedy and Hughes, yet. Certainly, a lot of potential in those two but as of yet, it is unfulfilled. They wouldn't be the first great prospects who didn't pan out if they don't meet expectations.

With our payroll, it is unthinkable that we would have so many question marks in the starting rotation.
Hughes pitched to a 100 era + with a whip and BAA that were both well above average. He got off to a bad start in 08 and pitched poorly, but he has proven he can do it at the ML level.

CommerceComet
05-26-08, 03:09 PM
Hughes pitched to a 100 era + with a whip and BAA that were both well above average. He got off to a bad start in 08 and pitched poorly, but he has proven he can do it at the ML level.So who is the real Phillip Hughes? The 2007 version? Or the 2008 version? I would be more comfortable if the poor season preceded the good season. As it is, you still have to be concerned that the league has caught up to Hughes and maybe he can't counter their adjustments. I think that jumping to the conclusion that Hughes is "proven" based on a relatviely small sample is premature.

bmxstreetrider86
05-26-08, 04:54 PM
So who is the real Phillip Hughes? The 2007 version? Or the 2008 version? I would be more comfortable if the poor season preceded the good season. As it is, you still have to be concerned that the league has caught up to Hughes and maybe he can't counter their adjustments. I think that jumping to the conclusion that Hughes is "proven" based on a relatviely small sample is premature.



well, 75 IP is a little over a 1/3 of a season, and this years performance is less than 1/3 of that.


jumping to the conclusion that this years numbers are what we should expect of him, especially with last years experience and his minor league track record and pedigree, is very premature IMO

nortonfan83
05-26-08, 05:06 PM
Definites

Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy

So we need a 5th

There's a laundry list of ideas to stay in house: Pettitte, Rasner, Igawa, McCutchen, Christian Garcia, Horne. We really have to see what transpires over the next 4 months with this list.

Ideas if the club option is declined on the below:

Rich Harden- If A's decline his club option for 09. Sign to incentive laden short term deal 2-3 yrs. Would be money in big games

Mulder- We need lefty. He'll come at a discount. We can sign him to an incentive laden 1-2 yr deal. Big time experience in the AL.

Lackey- I highly doubt that the Angels decline this option for 09. Just in case they do, almost a proven ace in the AL. I would still take his $ and years that he will command over Sabathia $ and years.

Brad Penny- Almost same case as Lackeys but no AL experience. I doubt the Dodgers decline his option. Can be a big game pitcher but too many injury issues.

Of course you can sign a 6 year deal on Sabathia which isn't the worst thing in the world. Ideally, this team could use a young left handed starter and it would be best if they got the starter in a trade of some sort. You look at what might be available and Cashman would have to get very creative to get something Kazmir-like. It wouldn't be a bad idea since they have a surplus of young pitching.

suha
05-26-08, 11:02 PM
He's always been a second half pitcher, if he pitches well I can see him coming back. .

Good point about Andy traditionally being better in the 2nd half. I think whether he comes back next year will largely rest on his 2nd half performance this year--because even though he's had a few bad starts in the last couple of weeks, he's still turned in enough good performances thus far this season to suggest he's not "done".

suha
05-26-08, 11:08 PM
Definites

Wang
Joba
Hughes
Kennedy

So we need a 5th

There's a laundry list of ideas to stay in house: Pettitte, Rasner, Igawa, McCutchen, Christian Garcia, Horne. We really have to see what transpires over the next 4 months with this list.

Ideas if the club option is declined on the below:

Rich Harden- If A's decline his club option for 09. Sign to incentive laden short term deal 2-3 yrs. Would be money in big games

Mulder- We need lefty. He'll come at a discount. We can sign him to an incentive laden 1-2 yr deal. Big time experience in the AL.

Lackey- I highly doubt that the Angels decline this option for 09. Just in case they do, almost a proven ace in the AL. I would still take his $ and years that he will command over Sabathia $ and years.

Brad Penny- Almost same case as Lackeys but no AL experience. I doubt the Dodgers decline his option. Can be a big game pitcher but too many injury issues.

Of course you can sign a 6 year deal on Sabathia which isn't the worst thing in the world. Ideally, this team could use a young left handed starter and it would be best if they got the starter in a trade of some sort. You look at what might be available and Cashman would have to get very creative to get something Kazmir-like. It wouldn't be a bad idea since they have a surplus of young pitching.

Harden: Great pitcher, too many injury issues. I wouldn't touch him unless it's a 1 year deal HEAVILY weighted with incentives.

Mulder: Hell no. Even when the entire baseball universe was hoodwinked into thinking this guy was good, he STILL got hammered almost every time he pitched in the Stadium.

Lackey: I'd be shocked if his option is declined, but if it is, the Yankees (and just about every other team in MLB) would be insane NOT to make a run for him. I've never liked the guy (mainly due to his team affiliation) but he is a damn good pitcher.

Penny: This is an interesting one. As you mentioned, he's been a career NLer, but I think his stuff would translate well to the AL, so there wouldn't be much of a drop-off. And his injuries, while frequent, have mostly been minor. I think I'd be ok giving him a deal of 3 or less years.

Sabathia: No. He's kind of amazing, but look what is already happening with Johan Santana, and then think of how much better shape Santana is in than CC.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
05-26-08, 11:20 PM
So who is the real Phillip Hughes? The 2007 version? Or the 2008 version? I would be more comfortable if the poor season preceded the good season. As it is, you still have to be concerned that the league has caught up to Hughes and maybe he can't counter their adjustments. I think that jumping to the conclusion that Hughes is "proven" based on a relatviely small sample is premature.the 'poor' season isn't over yet and included an injury immediately following the poor pitching. Oh and the sample size is rediculously small. Oh and if I'm not mistaken he's still the third or fourth youngest pitcher in baseball.

BennyTheJetRodriguez
05-26-08, 11:23 PM
Sabathia: No. He's kind of amazing, but look what is already happening with Johan Santana, and then think of how much better shape Santana is in than CC.Whats your connection between Sabathia and Santana though? Santana was giving up bombs, losing velocity, and refusing to throw his slider last year. Has Sabathia shown any signs I'm not aware of?

CommerceComet
05-27-08, 10:32 AM
jumping to the conclusion that this years numbers are what we should expect of him, especially with last years experience and his minor league track record and pedigree, is very premature IMOWhich is exactly what I said in an earlier post:

I'm not quite sure what to think of Kennedy and Hughes, yet. Certainly, a lot of potential in those two but as of yet, it is unfulfilled. They wouldn't be the first great prospects who didn't pan out if they don't meet expectations.

I'm withholding judgment until we have a better read on these two.

CommerceComet
05-27-08, 10:56 AM
the 'poor' season isn't over yet and included an injury immediately following the poor pitching. Oh and the sample size is rediculously small. Oh and if I'm not mistaken he's still the third or fourth youngest pitcher in baseball.You seem to imply that I have given up on Phil Hughes. I haven't. I think that Hughes has a great deal of potential but as of yet it is still potential.

I have been following baseball for over 45 years now. I have see countless phemons fail to develop. I used to get excited about stories of the "next Mickey Mantle," the "next Sandy Koufax," the "next Tom Seaver," and so on. So many times, these phemons stalled in the minor leagues or had mediocre big league careers that I began to become quite skeptical of these glowing reports on prospects. I never get too excited about these prospects until I see fulfilled potential in the big leagues.

Yankee Fan in Boston
05-27-08, 11:20 AM
You seem to imply that I have given up on Phil Hughes. I haven't. I think that Hughes has a great deal of potential but as of yet it is still potential.

I have been following baseball for over 45 years now. I have see countless phemons fail to develop. I used to get excited about stories of the "next Mickey Mantle," the "next Sandy Koufax," the "next Tom Seaver," and so on. So many times, these phemons stalled in the minor leagues or had mediocre big league careers that I began to become quite skeptical of these glowing reports on prospects. I never get too excited about these prospects until I see fulfilled potential in the big leagues.

In fairness, Hughes has shown a lot more to get to the major leagues than almost any pitching prospect we've had in the last 20 years. That said, you're right, he still has to put it together in the majors. I think he will, although it might not happen until '09 or even '10, and he may top out at a #3 starter and not a #1.

The fact that we have three of these guys on the team this year make it really hard to project what we'll be looking to do with our rotation in the offseason.

CommerceComet
05-28-08, 10:16 AM
I think he will, although it might not happen until '09 or even '10, and he may top out at a #3 starter and not a #1. I'm still optimistic about Hughes but it is very possible that his ceiling isn't as high as some expect and that he might not be that effective for a couple of more years. However, from the time that I first saw the three youngsters, it was always Joba who I was most bullish about. While I thought that Hughes had good stuff, it was Joba's that really caught my attention. Joba has the kind of dominating stuff that #1s are made of.

Of course, like the other two, Joba has yet to prove that he can be an effective starter in the big leagues.

primetime714
05-28-08, 11:50 AM
In fairness, Hughes has shown a lot more to get to the major leagues than almost any pitching prospect we've had in the last 20 years. That said, you're right, he still has to put it together in the majors. I think he will, although it might not happen until '09 or even '10, and he may top out at a #3 starter and not a #1.

The fact that we have three of these guys on the team this year make it really hard to project what we'll be looking to do with our rotation in the offseason.

I disagree. The control problems he showed this year are entirely uncharacteristic of his minor and major league career prior. In 2007 he did struggle at times when returning from injury, but down the stretch he proved to be a very effective pitcher against major league pitching and already had the look of at least a #3 with room to improve (i.e. his changeup). It may have been a small sample size, but I've seen enough to confidently say that he "tops out at" no less than a #2. Its certainly possible that things continue to fall apart for him and he is a #3 or even less, but the potential is still obviously there.

If we have the luxury of keeping him in the minors longer than necessary I think we should. With the main goal of developing that changeup. He'll likely be called up again later this year, but if we can get him completely right and get him working on that 3rd pitch that could be huge for his development.

ArodMVP217
05-28-08, 05:03 PM
at least we can agree that joba and phil are ahead of ian on the projected depth chart, no? Before Phil got injured, he was using his slider occasionally on 2-0 and 3-1 counts to steal some outs. it was on its way to be plus before they made him scrap it to save his elbow

Blazer
05-29-08, 04:53 AM
If we have the luxury of keeping him in the minors longer than necessary I think we should. With the main goal of developing that changeup. He'll likely be called up again later this year, but if we can get him completely right and get him working on that 3rd pitch that could be huge for his development.

Why not use him out of the pen when he comes back. That combined with his injury will keep his IP down so we can send him to winter ball to develop a change up and slider.