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View Full Version : Should Kevin Long be held accountable for the offensive struggles?



YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 09:49 AM
I saw that Girardi sort of threw him under the bus. The guy has showed that he can straighten A-Rod's game out, but come on, this is getting pathetic.

Should he be held accountable for the consistent struggles and should he be fired for them?


:(

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 09:51 AM
This might be a thread for ITL2 but it is a pretty important question. That's why I asked it here.

BRNXBMRS
05-16-08, 09:53 AM
After 25% of the season has been played and a majority of it was played withut A-rod & Posada, how can the hitting coach be held accountable? He isnt going up to the plate and not hitting with RISP. Plenty of games are left.

Mr. Mxylsplk
05-16-08, 09:54 AM
As long as Gary Denbo and Chris Chambliss get their share of the blame as well, sure, why should Long get off scot free.

Mark19
05-16-08, 09:55 AM
I think the team's problems are mental. They don't know how to develop a plan for driving runners in.

JavyVazquezIsSick
05-16-08, 09:55 AM
When did Girardi throw him under the bus?

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 09:57 AM
After 25% of the season has been played and a majority of it was played withut A-rod & Posada, how can the hitting coach be held accountable? He isnt going up to the plate and not hitting with RISP. Plenty of games are left.

While this is very true, the offense has been doing this far too often these past few years. A-Rod and Posada aren't the only guys that can hit. What about Giambi, Abreu, Damon, Cano?

yankeebot
05-16-08, 09:58 AM
When did Girardi throw him under the bus?
I'd like to know this as well. YankeesAce4Life?

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 09:58 AM
When did Girardi throw him under the bus?

In the post game interview. How Kazmir threw about 50 fastballs and the team just kept looking at them instead of swinging and connecting. And how when they did connect, nothing happened. This is a fastball hitting team and they just can't figure it out.

yankeebot
05-16-08, 10:00 AM
In the post game interview. How Kazmir threw about 50 fastballs and the team just kept looking at them instead of swinging and connecting. And how when they did connect, nothing happened. This is a fastball hitting team and they just can't figure it out.
I'm sorry. I don't understand how that is throwing Long under the bus. Did Girardi even mention Long?

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:08 AM
I'm sorry. I don't understand how that is throwing Long under the bus. Did Girardi even mention Long?

Um...he didn't mention him per se, but saying that these guys can't even hit a fastball or saying that they don't take the bat off their shoulder or can't even get a hit makes me feel like he's taking a little jab at Long. It's the way I took it and saw his emotion in the interview. Some make take it another way.

I've noticed you're pretty opinionated when you don't agree with someone or if someone doesn't agree with you.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:09 AM
I think the team's problems are mental. They don't know how to develop a plan for driving runners in.

Well if they would actually be aggressive and swing they actually might get a hit and get runners to score.

They take waaaaaaaaay too many first pitch strikes which are usually fastballs down the middle.

Bern51
05-16-08, 10:12 AM
Um...he didn't mention him per se, but saying that these guys can't even hit a fastball or saying that they don't take the bat off their shoulder or can't even get a hit makes me feel like he's taking a little jab at Long. It's the way I took it and saw his emotion in the interview. Some make take it another way.

I got that implication as well. Girardi is civil enough not to embarass his own hitting coach, but there's a sense of frustrationt there. Kevin Long's sole job is to make sure the hitters are doing their job. Saying that he shouldn't be responsable for the offensive woes is like saying that the President shouldn't be held accountable for the economy since he's not the head of the Federal Reserve or the Secretary of the Treasury. Someone's going to take the fall for this if it doesn't change, but I think it will when A-Rod and eventually Po return.

YESSIR!
05-16-08, 10:14 AM
Yeah I didn't think Girardi was taking a shot at Long with those statements, I thought he was taking a shot at his players. Deservedly so. Some of us on this forum have pointed out how mystifing it's been that the Yankees can't hit a FB. Shields threw a good amount of change-ups because he has a filthy one, but other than that, we were completey decimated by fast balls. The team never changed their approach and got more aggressive, and it cost them. Long is not to blame.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:14 AM
I got that implication as well. Girardi is civil enough not to embarass his own hitting coach, but there's a sense of frustrationt there. Kevin Long's sole job is to make sure the hitters are doing their job. Saying that he shouldn't be responsable for the offensive woes is like saying that the President shouldn't be held accountable for the economy since he's not the head of the Federal Reserve or the Secretary of the Treasury. Someone's going to take the fall for this if it doesn't change, but I think it will when A-Rod and eventually Po return.

Thank you!

Once A-Rod and Posada come back, the team should be fine!

Only downfall of Long getting fired is A-Rod won't be happy since he's worked well and improved with Long.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:15 AM
Yeah I didn't think Girardi was taking a shot at Long with those statements, I thought he was taking a shot at his players. Deservedly so. Some of us on this forum have pointed out how mystifing it's been that the Yankees can't hit a FB. Shields threw a good amount of change-ups because he has a filthy one, but other than that, we were completey decimated by fast balls. The team never changed their approach and got more aggressive, and it cost them. Long is not to blame.

Long might not get the sole blame, but he should get some as well as the players.

yarosh25
05-16-08, 10:16 AM
I don't neccessarily want to blame him, but I wish he can eliminate the uppercut in the swings of lefties in our lineup and Melky as well. Too many good fastball counts gone wasted with guys swinging under the fastball and popping or flying out.

Torre Must Go
05-16-08, 10:19 AM
Why was Chambliss ever let go? We had some pretty good success when he was the batting coach here.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:20 AM
Sometimes I feel like this team just doesn't care. :(

yankeebot
05-16-08, 10:21 AM
Um...he didn't mention him per se, but saying that these guys can't even hit a fastball or saying that they don't take the bat off their shoulder or can't even get a hit makes me feel like he's taking a little jab at Long. It's the way I took it and saw his emotion in the interview. Some make take it another way.

I've noticed you're pretty opinionated when you don't agree with someone or if someone doesn't agree with you. :lol: No. I'm just opinionated period. Sorry if that's a problem for you but I don't think I'll be changing any time soon.

yanksphan
05-16-08, 10:22 AM
Do we give him credit for Matsui, Jeter and Melky?

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:23 AM
I wish Tino would be our hitting coach! :pray:

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:26 AM
:lol: No. I'm just opinionated period. Sorry if that's a problem for you but I don't think I'll be changing any time soon.

That's fine, but I won't be changing my opinions anytime soon either. So if that's a problem for you, so sorry.

Thanks!

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:26 AM
Do we give him credit for Matsui, Jeter and Melky?

It's called a general question. The offense STINKS overall!

JavyVazquezIsSick
05-16-08, 10:30 AM
After watching the interview, I couldn't get any less of an impression that Girardi was putting blame on Long. He was putting all the blame on the hitters. At one point (whatever her name is), told Girardi "that was Longs big complaint on Monday, Garza threw all fastballs and they weren't hitting them." Girardi responded along the lines that the hitters need to be able to change their approach.

If the hitting coach is diagnosing the problem, and the hitters aren't responding, its the hitting coach's fault how?

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:32 AM
After watching the interview, I couldn't get any less of an impression that Girardi was putting blame on Long. He was putting all the blame on the hitters. At one point (whatever her name is), told Girardi "that was Longs big complaint on Monday, Garza threw all fastballs and they weren't hitting them." Girardi responded along the lines that the hitters need to be able to change their approach.

Isn't it the hitting coachs' job to instill that though?

I took it that Girardi was sort of giving blame to Long. As I said, I took it that way and someone can take it another way.

Bern51
05-16-08, 10:32 AM
Do we give him credit for Matsui, Jeter and Melky?

Melky's batting average is .268, Jeter has the lowest OPS+ of his career since 1997, so they only seem like they're hitting because the rest of the team looks like they're stuck in the dead-ball era.

apalradio
05-16-08, 10:36 AM
Like any other business, baseball would have to be considered results oriented. Regardless of any other considerations, if our offense is underperforming as spectacularly as it is for as long as it is, but the hitting coach is not held accountable, what exactly is a hitting coach for?

yanksphan
05-16-08, 10:37 AM
Melky's batting average is .268, Jeter has the lowest OPS+ of his career since 1997, so they only seem like they're hitting because the rest of the team looks like they're stuck in the dead-ball era.

Come on now, don't cherry pick stats.

Melky's OPS+ is 111 and Jeter's hitting .302

Looking at both statistics for each player paint a more accurate picture.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:38 AM
Like any other business if our offense is underperforming as spectacularly as it is for as long as it is, but the hitting coach is not held accountable, what exactly is a hitting coach for?

Thanks! :)

JavyVazquezIsSick
05-16-08, 10:42 AM
Isn't it the hitting coachs' job to instill that though?

To an extent. If the hitting coach is stating that the Rays pitchers are throwing fastballs down the plate on Monday and the Yankee hitters are still taking them on Thursday, I don't think you can blame the hitting coach, you blame the hitters. As Girardi stated, the Yankees approach is that of patience, in this situation the hitters need to make the adjustments. The fact Long actually diagnosed the problem, I think its a job well done.


I took it that Girardi was sort of giving blame to Long. As I said, I took it that way and someone can take it another way.

Yeah, but your way is wrong.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:46 AM
To an extent. If the hitting coach is stating that the Rays pitchers are throwing fastballs down the plate on Monday and the Yankee hitters are still taking them on Thursday, I don't think you can blame the hitting coach. As Girardi stated, the Yankees approach is that of patience, in this situation the hitters need to make the adjustments. The fact Long actually diagnosed the problem, I think its a job well done.



Yeah, but your way is wrong.

Maybe Long is just a bad communicator and can't get it through their heads. Um yeah, it's not that hard to diagnose that the opposing team is consistenly throwing fastballs down the middle. It's pretty much rocket science I guess.

My way is wrong huh? Not quite.

Mantle'sMutt
05-16-08, 10:47 AM
Fire the bum. Seriously though, if the hitting is poor, why NOT place some blame at the door of Long? I kept hearing what a wizard he was the past few years and how the Yankees would bash the crap out of the ball if only they'd get rid of Donnie (et al) and bring up Long. So much for that theory. I agree that hitting is largely mental and partly mechanical. If effective, a good hitting coach should be able to address both aspects. Maybe it isn't the coach's fault if guys aren't listening and refusing to try what he says but, otherwise, he has to share in the blame game.


Hey, fire that physical fitness guy too, given all these injuries. Isn't there precendent for that! ;)

tdel23
05-16-08, 10:48 AM
I think the hitting coach position is kind of over rated.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:50 AM
I think the hitting coach position is kind of over rated.

You don't say? ;) :P

yanksphan
05-16-08, 10:51 AM
I'd prefer the Yankees start hitting rather than looking for a scapegoat.

Sixty one
05-16-08, 10:52 AM
Is it possible that the Yankee hitting problems could simply be traced to players who are past their peak and are on the downside of their careers?

I'm talking about Giambi, Damon, Molina, and Ensberg. Also, Abreau, and Jeter are nearing 35 and could also be seeing a decline in their offensive contribution especially as the season drags on.

I know it's only the middle of May and I've been constantly hearing that this offense is too good not to produce but this may be the year that it begins to unravel. I hope I'm wrong.:(

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:55 AM
I'd prefer the Yankees start hitting rather than looking for a scapegoat.

Yeah well no kidding, but Long isn't getting across to these guys supposedly.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 10:57 AM
Is it possible that the Yankee hitting problems could simply be traced to players who are past their peak and are on the downside of their careers?

I'm talking about Giambi, Damon, Molina, and Ensberg. Also, Abreau, and Jeter are nearing 35 and could also be seeing a decline in their offensive contribution especially as the season drags on.

I know it's only the middle of May and I've been constantly hearing that this offense is too good not to produce but this may be the year that it begins to unravel. I hope I'm wrong.:(

Damon passed his peak at 34? That's pretty sad.

We should have never signed Ensberg. Giambi was given too long of a contract as we all know, Molina is a backup catcher. We didn't figure Posada getting injured.

Abreu can still hit, he's just in a slump and Jeter is the same.

This offense is too good to be like this...they just need to get it together already.:o

Yankees1962
05-16-08, 11:24 AM
Everytime a team struggles with their bats, the batting coach gets the blame whether he deserves it or not so I don't understand the need for this thread.

Yankees1962
05-16-08, 11:25 AM
Yeah well no kidding, but Long isn't getting across to these guys supposedly.
Can we wait until we're further into the season.

yanksphan
05-16-08, 11:27 AM
Yeah well no kidding, but Long isn't getting across to these guys supposedly.

Supposedly? You say this like it's documented somewhere. This is merely an assumption on your part.

JfromJersey
05-16-08, 11:41 AM
The league knows you can't play footsie with the Yankees. They are challenging Yankee hitters rather than nibbling like they did in the past. The Yankees are getting hittable pitches early in the count and are not taking advantage. Until they can start punishing pitchers early..using a more aggresive approach at the plate, I fear we will remain in the doldrums. The league has adjusted. Now it's time for the Yankees to readjust.
Kevin Long is more about mechanics than hitting philosophy. Girardi, more than anyone, can change that philosophy at least temporarily, and the hitters have to really mash hittable pitches when they get them.

In Mo I Trust
05-16-08, 11:42 AM
Damon passed his peak at 34? That's pretty sad.


Baseball players on average peak at age 27.

roblyo33
05-16-08, 11:50 AM
The league knows you can't play footsie with the Yankees. They are challenging Yankee hitters rather than nibbling like they did in the past. The Yankees are getting hittable pitches early in the count and are not taking advantage. Until they can start punishing pitchers early..using a more aggresive approach at the plate, I fear we will remain in the doldrums. The league has adjusted. Now it's time for the Yankees to readjust.
Kevin Long is more about mechanics than hitting philosophy. Girardi, more than anyone, can change that philosophy at least temporarily, and the hitters have to really mash hittable pitches when they get them.

I agree wholeheartedly. First pitch fastballs, right down the middle, should be very hittable for a major league hitter.

Mr. Mxylsplk
05-16-08, 11:53 AM
Damon passed his peak at 34? That's pretty sad.

At exactly what age do you expect Damon, or anyone else, to reach their peak? We're still talking about playing baseball, right?

knickfan23
05-16-08, 12:00 PM
Everytime a team struggles with their bats, the batting coach gets the blame whether he deserves it or not so I don't understand the need for this thread.

This thread has appeared for the 4th straight season. Every year its the hitting coaches fault somehow as if they control the fortunes of the players performance in his hand.

Apparently his work with Alberto Gonzalez, Jose Molina and Morgan Ensberg has not been good this year. Nevermind the fact that those hitters....hello....ARE NOT GOOD HITTERS TO BEGIN WITH.

I guess he's to blame for not getting through to Giambi to hit to the left side against the shift. It's not like he hasnt been told this for the last 5 years. And I dont know if there is some magic potion that exists to stop Cano from having a slow start the last couple years.

Add that together equates to 55% of the lineup. No team can compete for any length of time with that many holes.

Krall
05-16-08, 12:14 PM
Thank you!

Once A-Rod and Posada come back, the team should be fine!

Only downfall of Long getting fired is A-Rod won't be happy since he's worked well and improved with Long.

Gimme a break if we can't score any runs minus 2 bats then we are doomed! There are games when A-Rod will get himself a hat trick and drive in zero while the rest of the team produces.

Mantle'sMutt
05-16-08, 12:24 PM
At exactly what age do you expect Damon, or anyone else, to reach their peak? We're still talking about playing baseball, right?

I hope so, else we are basically looking at high schoolers on that peak. :eek: :D ;)

R.V.47
05-16-08, 12:25 PM
It is tough probably for Long dealing with so many established hitters who probably dont want to change some of their techniques. However, they should look at what he did for A-Rod and listen to him.

knickfan23
05-16-08, 12:31 PM
It is tough probably for Long dealing with so many established hitters who probably dont want to change some of their techniques. However, they should look at what he did for A-Rod and listen to him.

But that's what it is. Some people have to want to be helped and then fully commit themselves 100% to that help. Alex accepted the help and it paid off for him. But some other guys are so stubborn and set in their ways that no amount of assistance is going to matter.

Casius
05-16-08, 03:55 PM
I never really praise or criticize coaches as a fan. There is just too much we don't know. I really leave it entirely up to the organization to determine that because they're the only ones who have the knowledge of what each coach is doing and how it has affected each player's game.

YankeesAce4Life
05-16-08, 09:08 PM
I blame Kevin Long for the rain out. :mad: ;)

Vin
05-16-08, 10:48 PM
Fire the bum. Seriously though, if the hitting is poor, why NOT place some blame at the door of Long? I kept hearing what a wizard he was the past few years and how the Yankees would bash the crap out of the ball if only they'd get rid of Donnie (et al) and bring up Long. So much for that theory. I agree that hitting is largely mental and partly mechanical. If effective, a good hitting coach should be able to address both aspects. Maybe it isn't the coach's fault if guys aren't listening and refusing to try what he says but, otherwise, he has to share in the blame game.


Hey, fire that physical fitness guy too, given all these injuries. Isn't there precendent for that! ;)

Abreu said on an interview last year that it took a while for Long's teachings to sink in.

When one gets stuck on a bad habit not even a great or a hall of fame hitting coach can get you out of it if you're not disciplined and tough enough to follow his teachings.

Blazer
05-17-08, 07:33 AM
Abreu said on an interview last year that it took a while for Long's teachings to sink in.

When one gets stuck on a bad habit not even a great or a hall of fame hitting coach can get you out of it if you're not disciplined and tough enough to follow his teachings.

Abreu is the perfect example of a hitter who won't adjust to a new way he's being pitched. In 2007 he swung at the first pitch about 1 in 21 PA. The first pitches he didn't swing at were split almost exactly 50/50 between balls and strikes.

This year he's swinging at even fewer first pitches, 1 every 43 PA, and pitchers are throwing about 58% first pitch strikes. His BB are down as a result.

Pitchers now know they can throw a get-it-over meatball to him on the first pitch and he won't swing. He needs to make an adjustment.

-tz
05-17-08, 01:55 PM
I'm beginning to think Long should get some of the blame for this ridiculous pattern they've fallen into: As SOON as they fall even one run behind, they start making first and second pitch outs. They just made six outs on twelve pitches ... make it seven on fourteen as Abreu flies out on the second pitch.

nnysiny
05-17-08, 02:04 PM
its not Kevin's fault. the Yankees just roll over when the games are close. once Andy gave up the lead, they couldnt get out fast enough

teknetic
05-17-08, 05:50 PM
Whoever's fault it is, this team's BA with RISP is a stellar .249. Good for 10th place in the league and in front of Texas, Detroit, Seattle, and Toronto. 22nd overall in the bigs. I'd be lying if I said I had any faith that we'd score one run, much less 3 when Giambi and Cano got on.

yankee maniac
05-17-08, 08:43 PM
I'm beginning to think Long should get some of the blame for this ridiculous pattern they've fallen into: As SOON as they fall even one run behind, they start making first and second pitch outs. They just made six outs on twelve pitches ... make it seven on fourteen as Abreu flies out on the second pitch.

I had the same thought. The Yankees used to be known for making pitchers work and getting to the other teams bullpen. Now it seems like they are helping out the other teams starters with their quick at bats. If they made Santana work a little harder in the middle innings they could have gotten into the Mets bullpen, which is pretty crappy instead of going from Santana right to Wagner

JDPNYY
05-17-08, 10:16 PM
Kevin Long has made the Yankee Hitters into hitters that stink.

teknetic
05-18-08, 08:58 PM
Whoever's fault it is, this team's BA with RISP is a stellar .249. Good for 10th place in the league and in front of Texas, Detroit, Seattle, and Toronto. 22nd overall in the bigs. I'd be lying if I said I had any faith that we'd score one run, much less 3 when Giambi and Cano got on.

They were 10th prior to yesterday's game..and are now sitting comfy at the cellar. How the hell does that happen? leadoff doubles are a non factor, we'll see other teams churn them into runs while we flail away and struggle to move the runner.

Prison Mike
05-18-08, 09:01 PM
He's obviously not the entire problem- but if we're not hitting, and he's the hitting coach, he has to be partly responsible.

Casius
05-18-08, 09:32 PM
He's obviously not the entire problem- but if we're not hitting, and he's the hitting coach, he has to be partly responsible.Correlation != Causation

That's a principle many baseball fans seem to have difficulty grasping.

effdamets
05-19-08, 07:37 AM
I think Long shoulders at least part of the blame for this dismal showing of offense.

Every Yankee hitter has the same problem. Their center of gravity leans on their back leg in every hitters' swing, causing the bat to get underneath the ball, ultimately making the ball go straight up into the air for an easy pop up/fly out.
No batter is balanced throughout their entire swing, with Matsui being the closest.

The hitting coach has to realize that this team has little power and concentrate his efforts on getting the hitters to hit line drives by being balanced. He is not doing that as I don't see any hitter changing their approach at the plate, while this offense struggles to put two hits together in an inning.

flymick24
05-19-08, 09:12 AM
correlation may not equal causation, but in reality, there's no way anybody is going to find the exact cause for this team's hitting woes. thus, you place the blame on the guy whose job it is to have the yankees hit well, that being kevin long. do the hitters get most of the blame? absolutely. but to exonerate long when he's getting paid to have these hitters do exactly what they're NOT doing right now is outright foolish.

Casius
05-19-08, 10:54 AM
No one's exonerating anybody. It's just silly to speculate (with such confidence!) about such an unknown factor. Very little is known about the workings of the hitting/pitching coach. In this case, I'm inclined to believe the organization understands this a lot better.

Edit: Just to clarify, I realize most of what goes on in a fan messageboard is speculation, but there is a point where you pass into ludicrousness. For instance, I think 95% of the criticism in the Girardi thread is pretty dumb, but you can still analyze it as a fan and come to a valid opinion. You have the information, but what the coaches do is so out of reach of a typical fan, it is completely silly to come to any tangible observation about their fault in the Yankees offense.

How the players perform is not a rational way of judging fault on the coaches' part.

Constantino24
05-19-08, 06:34 PM
I think it is time to take a look at what the hitting coach is doing. I mean six of our guys in the lineup are not hitting at all, is that just a coincidence? They are being beaten by guys throwing 91MPH fastballs down Broadway and they can't even come close to making consistent contact. Cliff Lee, Scott Kazmir, Kenny Rogers, all made our hitters look awful with low grade fastballs for the majority of the pitches. That doesn't lead people to believe that maybe its the hitting coach and his poor gameplan each time?

jbauer2485
05-19-08, 07:35 PM
correlation may not equal causation, but in reality, there's no way anybody is going to find the exact cause for this team's hitting woes. thus, you place the blame on the guy whose job it is to have the yankees hit well, that being kevin long. do the hitters get most of the blame? absolutely. but to exonerate long when he's getting paid to have these hitters do exactly what they're NOT doing right now is outright foolish.

I fully agree with this sentiment and I don't understand how most people (based on the poll) think Long should not be held accountable. If Long can take credit for helping Arod have an MVP year in 2007, he certainly can and needs to be held accountable for an ENTIRE TEAMS's struggles at this point. Let's also not forget our team had plenty of hitting problems last year as well.

At this point, even if the team can turn this around, I'd look in a new direction as soon as Long's contract is up.

Ericas367
05-19-08, 08:45 PM
When i watch the Yanks..it doesnt seem like they don't care..its no fire they just stare off into oblivion while they are on the bench and look like robots on defense besides Jeter..joking and being all friendly with the other teams runners in scoring postion! who is usually one line drive away from scoring on the Yankees lol