PDA

View Full Version : Should Brian Cashman be re-upped after this season?



YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:38 PM
I'm not just talking about his work with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. I am dating back to Jeff Weaver and Kevin Brown.

What say you?

DkNNy79
04-30-08, 03:39 PM
No...there's going to be a bad deal here and there, but I still think Brian is a good GM.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:39 PM
Has Brian Cashman been the genius everyone says he is?

I don't think so. I don't want his contract re-upped.

YESSIR!
04-30-08, 03:40 PM
No friggin' way.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:41 PM
He has made a few good moves, but he has no knack for pitching. We all know Hughes and Kennedy will be really good pitchers, but I'm just convinced Cashman is far from a pitching guru.

THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 03:41 PM
While I do think Cashman is completely overrated by the majority of NYYFANs (and I've said this for a while now, not just at this time of sorrow), I like the direction he has the team going in.

He has developed a top flight farm system and is in the process of letting nasty contracts off the books

He should absolutely not be fired. I'd give him a 3 yr extension in fact.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:41 PM
No friggin' way.

Any reasons to back that up?

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:43 PM
While I do think Cashman is completely overrated by the majority of NYYFANs (and I've said this for a while now, not just at this time of sorrow), I like the direction he has the team going in.

He has developed a top flight farm system and is in the process of letting nasty contracts off the books

He should absolutely not be fired. I'd give him a 3 yr extension in fact.

I love what Cashman did for the farm system. But the guy irks me when he always talks about..."it needs to make sense." Well no kidding it needs to make sense, but half his moves haven't made sense ala Jeff Weaver and Kevin Brown. Plus a few others that have cost us greatly.

azzurribaggio
04-30-08, 03:43 PM
HAHHAA, what a thread!, should be linked to "Why are we complaining in April...?"

I say let the year play out then evaluate what happened....then fire him :) haha j/k

Bring in Billy Beane for A-rod money.....

bronxburning
04-30-08, 03:43 PM
He should not be fired. His contract is up. It probably will not be renewed. He will be shown the door just like Torre and they will chalked it up to "change is needed."

GOYS
04-30-08, 03:43 PM
one should also not forget the factions he had to work against (tampa) and take those into consideration, for all fairness. Who's decision was whos? We may never know, but overall I wouldn't fire cashman.

TEPLimey
04-30-08, 03:43 PM
This thread should be fired. Where's the poll choice for that?

GIAMBISMYIDOL25
04-30-08, 03:44 PM
everyone needs to step away from the ledge...

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:45 PM
This thread should be fired. Where's the poll choice for that?

Hardy har har.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:46 PM
Change of title.

Yankee Tripper
04-30-08, 03:47 PM
say what you want about the big budget and all but he's gotten us in the playoff every year since the strike. Not every team that's spent money like its was going out of style over the same period can claim the same results. I forget the year he actually took over as GM. Is he the best GM in baseball? Probably not. Does he have the yanks headed in the right direction? I think yes.

Yankees1962
04-30-08, 03:48 PM
I'm not just talking about his work with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. I am dating back to Jeff Weaver and Kevin Brown.

What say you?
I refuse to vote until I see how this season plays out.

yankeebot
04-30-08, 03:48 PM
Change of title.
You changed the question after 16 votes had been cast? I call fraud.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 03:48 PM
No, Its obvious now that hughes is nothing special and kennedy was never regarded as anything special and these two kept us from santana. if we had santana that would give us a top 3 of wang , pettite and santana. along with our dominat lineup and pen we wouldve been hoisting the flag for the 27th title. Instead brian convinced everyone that hughes and kennedy were aces.

iodon
04-30-08, 03:49 PM
Cashman has a great deal around here. He get's credit for anything that works out and ownership/Tampa takes the blame for anything that doesn't. The fact is that he hasn't made a good pitching move in years. With the resources he has available, and the good luck of having Mariano, he should have done a better job over the last few years. I'm not just piling it on, this has been my stance for quite some time.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:49 PM
say what you want about the big budget and all but he's gotten us in the playoff every year since the strike. Not every team that's spent money like its was going out of style over the same period can claim the same results. I forget the year he actually took over as GM. Is he the best GM in baseball? Probably not. Does he have the yanks headed in the right direction? I think yes.

I give him an A+ for his work with rebuilding the farm system, but I give him a C- for his trades and free agent signings.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:51 PM
Cashman has a great deal around here. He get's credit for anything that works out and ownership/Tampa takes the blame for anything that doesn't. The fact is that he hasn't made a good pitching move in years. With the resources he has available, and the good luck of having Mariano, he should have done a better job over the last few years. I'm not just piling it on, this has been my stance for quite some time.

I concur.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:52 PM
No, Its obvious now that hughes is nothing special and kennedy was never regarded as anything special and these two kept us from santana. if we had santana that would give us a top 3 of wang , pettite and santana. along with our dominat lineup and pen we wouldve been hoisting the flag for the 27th title. Instead brian convinced everyone that hughes and kennedy were aces.

Sarcasm and some truth?

THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 03:52 PM
No, Its obvious now that hughes is nothing special and kennedy was never regarded as anything special and these two kept us from santana. if we had santana that would give us a top 3 of wang , pettite and santana. along with our dominat lineup and pen we wouldve been hoisting the flag for the 27th title. Instead brian convinced everyone that hughes and kennedy were aces.

Oh so it's obvious after 5-6 starts in the MLB at age 21 that Hughes is nothing special?

Dominant lineup? Hardly

THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 03:53 PM
I give him an A+ for his work with rebuilding the farm system, but I give him a C- for his trades and free agent signings.

So basically you give him a combined B for his two most important jobs. I never knew B was such a failing grade for a GM.

sweet_lou_14
04-30-08, 03:55 PM
This thread confuses me. The title says should he stay, but the actual poll question says should he go.

No way these poll results can be trusted.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:56 PM
So basically you give him a combined B for his two most important jobs. I never knew B was such a failing grade for a GM.

:lol: I didn't want to give the guy an F. He has made some good moves, but the bad outdo the good, but the good moves have been real good. It's complicated.

All in all, Brian Cashman is a nothing special GM. I don't want him back. He has no feel for pitching and that wins the games.

mbn007
04-30-08, 03:57 PM
While I do think Cashman is completely overrated by the majority of NYYFANs (and I've said this for a while now, not just at this time of sorrow), I like the direction he has the team going in.

He has developed a top flight farm system and is in the process of letting nasty contracts off the books

He should absolutely not be fired. I'd give him a 3 yr extension in fact.

I agree.

Cashman has made his share of questionable decisions, and sometimes it seems that a decision is made in reaction to what another team does (e.g., the Igawa signing). But all in all, he has rebuilt the Farm System into a top 5 system, from a bottom 10 just 2 years ago. He has gotten some youth on the team, and we are on the cusp of getting rid of major contracts, albeit that some will be replaced.

The overall direction is very positive. The future is bright, and the potential for another nice long run is there.

Brian stays, I agree with the 3 year deal.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 03:57 PM
This thread confuses me. The title says should he stay, but the actual poll question says should he go.

No way these poll results can be trusted.

I changed the title, but I couldn't change the poll question. Sorry.:o

iodon
04-30-08, 03:57 PM
Are we giving Cashman or Oppenheimer credit for the drafts? Because if Oppenheimer gets credit for the drafts, the only thing Cashman can take credit for is simply not trading away some players that may or may not work out for this team. Seems a little sketchy to me.

apalradio
04-30-08, 03:57 PM
I give him an A+ for his work with rebuilding the farm system, but I give him a C- for his trades and free agent signings.Agreed on both grades. In fact, the C- might be a tad generous. He doesn't seem to be a very creative GM. Like any other Yankee fan, I can't stand the Red Sox. But it sometimes feels like Theo is thinking outside the box while Cash is standing right in the middle of it.

RYMASTER or Ryan_Yankees
04-30-08, 03:57 PM
The thread title and poll question don't match in terms of which is "yes" and which is "no."

Ynkcpt23
04-30-08, 03:58 PM
While I do think Cashman is completely overrated by the majority of NYYFANs (and I've said this for a while now, not just at this time of sorrow), I like the direction he has the team going in.

He has developed a top flight farm system and is in the process of letting nasty contracts off the books

He should absolutely not be fired. I'd give him a 3 yr extension in fact.

Right on. Starting next year we unload a bunch of $$--hello financial flexibility. Plus there is that stocked farm system to bring along...

I am very happy with the future of the organization.

cupcollector99
04-30-08, 03:59 PM
No, Its obvious now that hughes is nothing special and kennedy was never regarded as anything special and these two kept us from santana. if we had santana that would give us a top 3 of wang , pettite and santana. along with our dominat lineup and pen we wouldve been hoisting the flag for the 27th title. Instead brian convinced everyone that hughes and kennedy were aces.

I think we fans projected Hughes and IPK as being the best thing since the wheel. Our expectations are too high. Cashman knows and always knew that this was the tougher road to hoe and gambled that they would keep them in ballgames where the offense would take over. Scoring more runs would probably have made this work but since the O has taken an extra five weeks to appear, the pitching hasn't had the luxury of growing on the job.
Take a look at the Santana trade threads in the hotstove section and you'll see a lot of fellow posters claiming that those guys (rookies on pitch counts mind you) would be able to win 15 games and we don't need Santana because they were that good as per Baseball Prospectus or Baseball America or some other stat site. I was almost run out of town for suggesting that they were works in progress and should'nt be relied upon for anything.

Those kids have promise but there has been a lot of projecting going on because of god knows why.

edit- innings counts, not pitch counts.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 04:02 PM
Agreed on both grades. In fact, the C- might be a tad generous. He doesn't seem to be a very creative GM. Like any other Yankee fan, I can't stand the Red Sox. But it sometimes feels like Theo is thinking outside the box while Cash is standing right in the middle of it.

Cashman preaches about things making "sense," but a lot of things he does, just doesn't.

dkman
04-30-08, 04:03 PM
If Brian Cashman is fired, who is going to stand up to Hank when he wants to trade for an aging star? The new puppet GM? I doubt it. It's nonsensical to judge his progress a month and a half into the season, when before the season started everyone was praising him for fighting to keep the young kids.

As far as trades he's made, it's easy to forget Wells for Clemens, or Soriano for Alex freaking Rodriguez. Those were both highway robbery. Cashman has the right idea of building from within, has a great touch with the press, and 10 years of experience as the GM of the Yankees. Your not going to find that anywhere else.

YESSIR!
04-30-08, 04:04 PM
Any reasons to back that up?

Because it's still April. I like the moves Cash has made with the kids, I love what he's done with the farm, and I'm not willing to write him off as a failure after one month of baseball. Ya know, that sport that plays 162 games in the regular season? There is no real way of knowing right now if Cashman's 'plan' will be a good one. In the long run, I'm betting that it will.

Rich
04-30-08, 04:05 PM
Patience is a virtue. That is all.

THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 04:05 PM
Because it's still April. I like the moves Cash has made with the kids, I love what he's done with the farm, and I'm not willing to write him off as a failure after one month of baseball. Ya know, that sport that plays 162 games in the regular season? There is no real way of knowing right now if Cashman's 'plan' will be a good one. In the long run, I'm betting that it will.

Do I agree with you? YESSIR!

Sorry...had to

YASS
04-30-08, 04:12 PM
I give him an A+ for his work with rebuilding the farm system, but I give him a C- for his trades and free agent signings.
Since Cashman was given full control and responsibility in '05, he's participated in the following trades:

Randy Johnson to Arizona for Luis Vizcaino, Ross Ohlendorf, Steven Jackson, and Alberto Gonzalez
Gary Sheffield to Detroit for Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, and Anthony Claggett
Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle from Philadelphia for C.J. Henry, Matt Smith, Jesus Sanchez, and Carlos Monasterios

In case 1, he managed to get Arizona to take almost all of Johnson's salary and to give up a solid middle reliever, a future setup guy, and a valuable backup middle infielder for a 40-some odd year old pitcher who's had multiple back surgeries since the deal.

In case 2, he got rid of an aging malcontent who couldn't really play the outfield anymore for a premium prospect package. And he set this up by shrewdly picking up Sheffield's option which made the whole deal possible.

In case 3, he made a deadline deal to get a high-OBP right fielder and a back of the rotation starter for absolutely nothing. This deal just about saved the season for the Yankees, too, if you recall. Abreu was on fire the entire second half.


This is a C- effort to you? Seriously?

tdel23
04-30-08, 04:12 PM
I could be wrong but at the time wasn't the Weaver deal considered a great trade, boy hindsight really is 20/20.

THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 04:15 PM
Since Cashman was given full control and responsibility in '05, he's participated in the following trades:

Randy Johnson to Arizona for Luis Vizcaino, Ross Ohlendorf, Steven Jackson, and Alberto Gonzalez
Gary Sheffield to Detroit for Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, and Anthony Claggett
Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle from Philadelphia for C.J. Henry, Matt Smith, Jesus Sanchez, and Carlos MonasteriosIn case 1, he managed to get Arizona to take almost all of Johnson's salary and to give up a solid middle reliever, a future setup guy, and a valuable backup middle infielder for a 40-some odd year old pitcher who's had multiple back surgeries since the deal.

In case 2, he got rid of an aging malcontent who couldn't really play the outfield anymore for a premium prospect package. And he set this up by shrewdly picking up Sheffield's option which made the whole deal possible.

In case 3, he made a deadline deal to get a high-OBP right fielder and a back of the rotation starter for absolutely nothing.


This is a C- effort to you? Seriously?

In case 1 - even more impressive is the fact that Cash had no leverage in negotiations since RJ only wanted to go to Zona. Secondly, we also received the 44th overall draft pick in this years draft for losing Vizcaino to free agency. Lots of high end talent available at that pick.

YESSIR!
04-30-08, 04:16 PM
Do I agree with you? YESSIR!

Sorry...had to

Haha, thas what I'm talkin' bout ;)

Yankee Tripper
04-30-08, 04:29 PM
:lol: the thread title change and poll question are hysterical.

smckdwn989
04-30-08, 04:31 PM
NO cashman should NOT be fired.

YES cashman should be reupped.

The guy has managed to rebuild the farm system, the yankees have had a number of successful drafts, and made some excellent deals. For example, just look at the prospects he got for Randy Johnson, and Gary Sheffield (humberto will come back strong).

teknetic
04-30-08, 04:34 PM
Oh so it's obvious after 5-6 starts in the MLB at age 21 that Hughes is nothing special?

Dominant lineup? Hardly

FWIW, just realize you are responding to the genius who claimed Maddux's career was built on the backs of the umpires.

THEBOSS84
04-30-08, 04:36 PM
FWIW, just realize you are responding to the genius who claimed Maddux's career was built on the backs of the umpires.

Just wanted to call him out again. He's also the same guy who blamed Jorge for getting injured.

YanksFanTillDeath
04-30-08, 04:39 PM
u guys are really cucu, how in the world you want cash out of here? who will replace him ?? yeah I guess so ...have faith young boys its not over till well you know..

R.V.47
04-30-08, 04:43 PM
His plan may eventually come out looking great but I cant see him weathering this storm with the ownership we have. 200 million dollar payroll being put on the backs of 22 year old pitchers wasnt a smart move.

Byron
04-30-08, 04:44 PM
Tough Call. He is a smart GM who handles the NY circus and working for the Steins... if you let him go, another team snaps him up in seconds.

However, I am underwhelmed with his performance in light of the resources he has available to him. This team has been poorly put together for too many years now to not begin to question the GM.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 04:51 PM
Tough Call. He is a smart GM who handles the NY circus and working for the Steins... if you let him go, another team snaps him up in seconds.

However, I am underwhelmed with his performance in light of the resources he has available to him. This team has been poorly put together for too many years now to not begin to question the GM.
Let him go. He cant win with big steins money, he wont win elsewhere.

Rich
04-30-08, 04:55 PM
Although Cash deserves only partial credit, as well as partial blame, for the moves that were made before he was given additional authority in 2005, let's not forget that there have been three WS championships during his watch.

I think that we should re-start the assessment clock on his body of work from 2005 on, but in doing so, in light of his emphasis on prospect acquisition and development, we should afford him several years so that his plan can be viewed in context.

So yes, of course he should be re-upped.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 04:58 PM
I think we fans projected Hughes and IPK as being the best thing since the wheel. Our expectations are too high. Cashman knows and always knew that this was the tougher road to hoe and gambled that they would keep them in ballgames where the offense would take over. Scoring more runs would probably have made this work but since the O has taken an extra five weeks to appear, the pitching hasn't had the luxury of growing on the job.
Take a look at the Santana trade threads in the hotstove section and you'll see a lot of fellow posters claiming that those guys (rookies on pitch counts mind you) would be able to win 15 games and we don't need Santana because they were that good as per Baseball Prospectus or Baseball America or some other stat site. I was almost run out of town for suggesting that they were works in progress and should'nt be relied upon for anything.

Those kids have promise but there has been a lot of projecting going on because of god knows why.

edit- innings counts, not pitch counts.
Us fans didnt project anything. Most fans wanted Santana except for maybe a few people on these forums that think they know more then they do. Santana was young, in his prime, and a guarentee to do well. This wasnt trading for an old big unit. Cashman dropped the ball. Its amazig he passes on santana yet signed bums like old unit, pavano, wright, vazquez, etc.

All this for kennedy who was NEVER highly rated and then comes up up and beats the royals and drays and suddenly is a top prospect and hughes who was the top pitching prospect but still you give up a what if for a sure thing in Santana.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 04:59 PM
Although Cash deserves only partial credit, as well as partial blame, for the moves that were made before he was given additional authority in 2005, let's not forget that there have been three WS championships during his watch.

I think that we should re-start the assessment clock on his body of work from 2005 on, but in doing so, in light of his emphasis on prospect acquisition and development, we should afford him several years so that his plan can be viewed in context.

So yes, of course he should be re-upped.
And ?? There were 4 ws under torres watch and you never give him any credit for them. Now I agree with that assesment of torre but I could just as easily say that big steins money is the reason both cash and torre looked good.

Carbon Fiber
04-30-08, 05:06 PM
In case 1 - even more impressive is the fact that Cash had no leverage in negotiations since RJ only wanted to go to Zona. Secondly, we also received the 44th overall draft pick in this years draft for losing Vizcaino to free agency. Lots of high end talent available at that pick.

#1 was amazing and I think #2 (Sheff to Det) is going to pay dividends for you guys in years to come. That's where Cashman has been deadly - he has really set you guys up for an amazing run in the next few years --- and the current issues are based primarily on unbelievably bad luck. All the freak injuries you guys had last year and then just when you think you've seen it all, it happens again this year. That is bad luck and nothing more, and I don't think you can lay that on Cashman at all. I'd take Cashman slightly over Epstein (but both I think are fantastic) but I'd take our organization slightly over yours (but both are excellent).

As a baseball fan first and a RS fan second, I've gotta say that I am really psyched to see the plethora of talent in the MiL in both organizations make it up to the majors. I get psyched (and partly scared) to see someone like Joba come up and dominate so much - 'cause there's that feeling with some of these guys that you could be seeing the beginning of historic baseball careers... and both our teams have better talent in the farms than in a long, long time, and I think Cash has got you guys ready to be deadly in the very near future (and I think this year you'll still become really strong and do your standard midsummer run once the injury bug passes).

Mr. Mxylsplk
04-30-08, 05:07 PM
... people on these forums that think they know more then they do.
It's rare to see the Unintentional Comedy Meter driven so far into the red.

Byron
04-30-08, 05:08 PM
Although Cash deserves only partial credit, as well as partial blame, for the moves that were made before he was given additional authority in 2005, let's not forget that there have been three WS championships during his watch.

I think that we should re-start the assessment clock on his body of work from 2005 on, but in doing so, in light of his emphasis on prospect acquisition and development, we should afford him several years so that his plan can be viewed in context.

So yes, of course he should be re-upped.

Planning for the future and maintaining a playoff quality team at the same time was not an impossibility for Cash. He had a good core of players and the most resources in all of baseball to do it with. Hate to constantly compare him to Theo, but the Sox are also building for the future (arguably better than we are) AND maintaining a power house perennial WS contender.

That is what I expected Cashman to be able to do as well.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:09 PM
#1 was amazing and I think #2 (Sheff to Det) is going to pay dividends for you guys in years to come. That's where Cashman has been deadly - he has really set you guys up for an amazing run in the next few years --- and the current issues are based primarily on unbelievably bad luck. All the freak injuries you guys had last year and then just when you think you've seen it all, it happens again this year. That is bad luck and nothing more, and I don't think you can lay that on Cashman at all. I'd take Cashman slightly over Epstein (but both I think are fantastic) but I'd take our organization slightly over yours (but both are excellent).

As a baseball fan first and a RS fan second, I've gotta say that I am really psyched to see the plethora of talent in the MiL in both organizations make it up to the majors. I get psyched (and partly scared) to see someone like Joba come up and dominate so much - 'cause there's that feeling with some of these guys that you could be seeing the beginning of historic baseball careers... and both our teams have better talent in the farms than in a long, long time, and I think Cash has got you guys ready to be deadly in the very near future (and I think this year you'll still become really strong and do your standard midsummer run once the injury bug passes).
He did all these so called great trades but had the best pitcher in baseball in his hands and didnt get him because he wanted to keep "prospects"

If we have santana we win number 27. Too bad cash dropped the ball.

Youre giving cash credit for getting rid of rj and getting a scrub like olendorf, trading sheff and getting a guy that was injured and will never pitch for the yanks, and getting abreu in a strict salary dump that anyone could have made.

The funny thing is anyone couldve made the santana deal too as evidence by a guy like minaya making the deal yet cash messed up a free bee

Rich
04-30-08, 05:10 PM
And ?? There were 4 ws under torres watch and you never give him any credit for them. Now I agree with that assesment of torre but I could just as easily say that big steins money is the reason both cash and torre looked good.
I don't know how you can know that given that you have only been a member of this forum since last month, but that aside, does this post (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=72476) from October 2004 sound like it was written by someone who never gave Torre any credit?

I have always given Torre credit for changing the overcontrolled atmosphere in the clubhouse that was a consequence of Buck Showalter's tenure because I think it played an important role in winning the WS in 1996.

My criticisms of Torre were largely based on what I viewed as poor bullpen management, and I think he stayed too long.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:10 PM
It's rare to see the Unintentional Comedy Meter driven so far into the red.
Yeah I get it, you are a fan of mine because of my commnets on maddux but put that aside for a second, anybody that didnt want to trade hughes and kennedy for santana had no idea what they were talking about.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:11 PM
He did all these so called great trades but had the best pitcher in baseball in his hands and didnt get him because he wanted to keep "prospects"

If we have santana we win number 27. Too bad cash dropped the ball.

Youre giving cash credit for getting rid of rj and getting a scrub like olendorf, trading sheff and getting a guy that was injured and will never pitch for the yanks, and getting abreu in a strict salary dump that anyone could have made.

The funny thing is anyone couldve made the santana deal too as evidence by a guy like minaya making the deal yet cash messed up a free bee

Ohlendorf has setup man stuff so calling him a scrub is laughable. Do you know anything about Humberto Sanchez? Doubtful.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:12 PM
I don't know how you can know that given that you have only been a member of this forum since last month, but that aside, does this post (http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=72476) from October 2004 sound like it was written by someone who never gave Torre any credit?

I have always given Torre credit for changing the overcontrolled atmosphere in the clubhouse that was a consequence of Buck Showalter's tenure beause I think it played an important factor in winning the WS in 1996.

My criticisms of Torre were largely based on what I viewed as poor bullpen management, and I think he stayed too long.
Ive lurked on many yanks forums being a fan but I just recently joined. Anyway I dont want to make myself seem like a fan or e stalker of yours but its more that its hard to find someone here that agrees with me that torre is a bad manager and thats why I remember your sn I guess. but anyway cash ges no credit imo

bigdan
04-30-08, 05:13 PM
While the pitching rotation looks like a huge miscalculation right now, I still believe Cash is only one trade away from giving the Yanks a reasonable shot in a "transition" year. The bullpen is deep, believe it or not, and the lineup is, well, let's say they think the calendar still reads October. He has a lot of chips to play with and needs to get us a veteran mid-rotation guy in the next couple of months. If he can pull that off, then he's had a good year.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:13 PM
Ohlendorf has setup man stuff so calling him a scrub is laughable. Do you know anything about Humberto Sanchez? Doubtful.
I know that he was injured at the time the trade was made and cash got the wool pulled over his eyes. and olendorf will not be a setup man, please.

Rich
04-30-08, 05:14 PM
Planning for the future and maintaining a playoff quality team at the same time was not an impossibility for Cash. He had a good core of players and the most resources in all of baseball to do it with. Hate to constantly compare him to Theo, but the Sox are also building for the future (arguably better than we are) AND maintaining a power house perennial WS contender.

That is what I expected Cashman to be able to do as well.

I think that has been Cash's objective since 2005, and to this point that goal has been achieved. The problem has been, imo, that the team's collective psyche has never recovered from the 2004 ALCS collapse, and they have played tight in the playoffs ever since, failing to win a playoff round.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:14 PM
I know that he was injured at the time the trade was made and cash got the wool pulled over his eyes. and olendorf will not be a setup man, please.

Yeah, he had a bad elbow....next? Show me that you know something, anything at all about the package we got for Gary Sheffield.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:16 PM
Yeah, he had a bad elbow....next? Show me that you know something, anything at all about the package we got for Gary Sheffield.
Sanchez was hurt otherwise the tigers never give him up for a guy like sheff.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:17 PM
Sanchez was hurt otherwise the tigers never give him up for a guy like sheff.


blahblahblah he was hurt. He had the surgery & he is rehabbing. Seriously, next?


Did you forget about Kevin Whelan & Anthony Claggett too?

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:19 PM
blahblahblah he was hurt. He had the surgery & he is rehabbing. Seriously, next?


Did you forget about Kevin Whelan & Anthony Claggett too?
No but sanchez was better then both beore he got hurt. Whatever you consider it a good trade and I dont.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:21 PM
No but sanchez was better then both beore he got hurt. Whatever you consider it a good trade and I dont.

Tell me WHY you don't think it was a good trade though. For an aging, disgruntled slugger coming off a major injury...what did you expect to get for him? Tim Lincecum & Matt Cain? Jay Bruce & Joey Votto?


Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, & Anthony Claggett for Sheff was a fantastic trade. Sanchez & Whelan have absolutely filthy stuff.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:22 PM
Tell me WHY you don't think it was a good trade though. For an aging, disgruntled slugger coming off a major injury...what did you expect to get for him? Tim Lincecum & Matt Cain? Jay Bruce & Joey Votto?


Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, & Anthony Claggett for Sheff was a fantastic trade. Sanchez & Whelan have absolutely filthy stuff.
Trade for a guy that isnt hurt, thats what I expect. And lets save the filthy stuff talk because phil hughes had "filthy stuff" too and look at him now.

apalradio
04-30-08, 05:24 PM
I could be wrong but at the time wasn't the Weaver deal considered a great trade, boy hindsight really is 20/20.In general, many people thought so. It wasn't hindsight at the time, but I remember thinking Ted Lilly was already performing quite well for us - why deal him away at all? What I think that demonstrated at the time, IMHO, is that some players coming up through our own organization seemed to have a better shot at performing on our stage than similar players imported from other teams and thrust on that same stage. I wished then, and haven't changed my mind since then, that Cash had stuck with Lilly instead of making that trade. But I think you have a point in that most people seemed to feel the other way.

jughead
04-30-08, 05:24 PM
Yes. I can't belive 75%+ people said no. The alternative is probably some puppet GM with Hank pulling the strings. No thanks. We're finally starting to go in the right direction. Don't mess it up now.

Krall
04-30-08, 05:25 PM
I'm not just talking about his work with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. I am dating back to Jeff Weaver and Kevin Brown.

What say you?

It's not just Torre that got us to the post season back to back 11 times...

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:25 PM
Clearly I am wasting my time.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 05:40 PM
Yes. I can't belive 75%+ people said no. The alternative is probably some puppet GM with Hank pulling the strings. No thanks. We're finally starting to go in the right direction. Don't mess it up now.
Why are we moving in the right direction ? Simpley being younger does not equal better. The right move was to trade hughes for johan. Sometime it is the right move to trade prospects when youre getting somebody of santanas caliber.

JeterForPresident
04-30-08, 05:42 PM
Clearly I am wasting my time.

You really are. The fact Cash got more than a bag of peanuts for Johnson was amazing. There was only one place to trade him to that would work and that was Arizona.

Sheff was going to be a waste on this team, so again just getting some prospects for a guy who was injured often and is at the end of his career was another good move.

I look at this sabermet guy as the guy who wants 27 now and doesn't care that getting Santana, while a good move in the short term, wasn't in the best interests of this team in the long term. We should be thankful Cash didn't go for it all here in 2008 even knowing his job might be on the line if they don't win it all.

sweet_lou_14
04-30-08, 05:43 PM
I could be wrong but at the time wasn't the Weaver deal considered a great trade, boy hindsight really is 20/20.

I liked Lilly a lot at the time ... I was skeptical.

In Mo I Trust
04-30-08, 05:44 PM
Let's worry about this at the end of the season.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:45 PM
You really are. The fact Cash got more than a bag of peanuts for Johnson was amazing. There was only one place to trade him to that would work and that was Arizona.

Sheff was going to be a waste on this team, so again just getting some prospects for a guy who was injured often and is at the end of his career was another good move.

I look at this sabermet guy as the guy who wants 27 now and doesn't care that getting Santana, while a good move in the short term, wasn't in the best interests of this team in the long term. We should be thankful Cash didn't go for it all here in 2008 even knowing his job might be on the line if they don't win it all.

With A-Rod out, we should trade Jackson, Tabata, & McAllister for Joe Crede.

Yankee Tripper
04-30-08, 05:46 PM
Yes. I can't belive 75%+ people said no. The alternative is probably some puppet GM with Hank pulling the strings. No thanks. We're finally starting to go in the right direction. Don't mess it up now.That's why I laughed at the title change to the thread. Which says "should he be re-upped" but the poll says "should he be given the heave ho"

75% said no he should not be given the boot.

teknetic
04-30-08, 05:52 PM
Why are we moving in the right direction ? Simpley being younger does not equal better. The right move was to trade hughes for johan. Sometime it is the right move to trade prospects when youre getting somebody of santanas caliber.

Another mega contract is exactly what this team needs, never mind the fact you'd be tossing in Hughes, IPK, +Melky/Tabata/whoever else they would have asked for. Do you usually go against the crowd to stand out?

Skars
04-30-08, 05:53 PM
what a garbage thread. you ask the thread question one way, and then the poll is another way. i answered yes without even reading the poll, and now it says i want him to be let go.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 05:53 PM
what a garbage thread. you ask the thread question one way, and then the poll is another way. i answered yes without even reading the poll, and now it says i want him to be let go.

Got me too.

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 05:58 PM
Having this conversation in April? Really?

JeterForPresident
04-30-08, 05:58 PM
With A-Rod out, we should trade Jackson, Tabata, & McAllister for Joe Crede.

Well only if we can sign Crede to a 6 year/$80-100 million deal as well.

In Mo I Trust
04-30-08, 05:59 PM
what a garbage thread. you ask the thread question one way, and then the poll is another way. i answered yes without even reading the poll, and now it says i want him to be let go.

The original thread title was "Should Cashman be fired", it was changed.

Constantino24
04-30-08, 06:02 PM
I don't think he deserves to be booted. Do you think there is a GM out there who wants the Yankees to be successful more than Cashman? The answer is no. Cashman has more invested in this team than anyone, and we need to let him do his job. Just because Hughes and Kennedy haven't worked out this early in the season does not mean we aren't going to be kissing Cashman's behind for the next several seasons to come when these two work out of their early career jitters. They are still young and have time to develop, so let's give it to them. I just hope that Hughes isn't pitching for the Sox or Angels in a couple of years and have it come back to bite us.

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 06:03 PM
How about that Johan Santana in his rookie year?

JeterForPresident
04-30-08, 06:06 PM
Honestly, in all fairness to Cash, it isn't even May yet and because Phil and Ian are pitching like Santana people are calling for his head. I mean realistically, what did we expect from this team this year? Cashman is building a team that starts with some young and talented players and works in some vets as well. It takes more than one offseason and a month of a season for that kind of thing to develop.

Ask the Red Sox, they didn't just start winning out of thin air, they have been making some good moves recently and had some luck as well, thats what it takes, that and time.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:06 PM
You really are. The fact Cash got more than a bag of peanuts for Johnson was amazing. There was only one place to trade him to that would work and that was Arizona.

Sheff was going to be a waste on this team, so again just getting some prospects for a guy who was injured often and is at the end of his career was another good move.

I look at this sabermet guy as the guy who wants 27 now and doesn't care that getting Santana, while a good move in the short term, wasn't in the best interests of this team in the long term. We should be thankful Cash didn't go for it all here in 2008 even knowing his job might be on the line if they don't win it all.
Why is santana wrong for the long term ? The guy is right in the middle of his prime. Hell be an ace for another 5 years at least.

jughead
04-30-08, 06:11 PM
That's why I laughed at the title change to the thread. Which says "should he be re-upped" but the poll says "should he be given the heave ho"

75% said no he should not be given the boot.Damn, I voted to boot him :(

CallOfTheCrow
04-30-08, 06:11 PM
Why is santana wrong for the long term ? The guy is right in the middle of his prime. Hell be an ace for another 5 years at least.

Between what ages, is a "prime" according to you?

JeterForPresident
04-30-08, 06:12 PM
Why is santana wrong for the long term ? The guy is right in the middle of his prime. Hell be an ace for another 5 years at least.

He is a great pitcher now and might be for another 5 plus years barring injuries or something unforseen. The reason it doesn't work is what Cash would have had to give up to get him, plus the amount of money to be spent on Santana. If we could have had Santana for Melky and Hughes, or even Melky, Hughes, and a lesser prospect other than Kennedy, I might even consider the deal, but it would have left us with no CF and without Hughes who may well go on to be a great pitcher. But it never came to that, the Twins GM always wanted way too much, and Cashman refused to be held hostage and IMO rightly walked away.

bcom33
04-30-08, 06:14 PM
I voted yes but meant no...

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:15 PM
He is a great pitcher now and might be for another 5 plus years barring injuries or something unforseen. The reason it doesn't work is what Cash would have had to give up to get him, plus the amount of money to be spent on Santana. If we could have had Santana for Melky and Hughes, or even Melky, Hughes, and a lesser prospect other than Kennedy, I might even consider the deal, but it would have left us with no CF and without Hughes who may well go on to be a great pitcher. But it never came to that, the Twins GM always wanted way too much, and Cashman refused to be held hostage and IMO rightly walked away.
Wait so you would trade hughes and melky but not hughes, kennedy and melky ? That makes 0 sense since kennedy is clearly the worst of the 3. If anything you have to argue not wanting to trade hughes and/or melky not kennedy. Besides the twins werent asking for all three anyway. It looks like hughes and melky wouldve gotten it done. Personally melky is the guy i would least like to give up. I wouldve given them hughes and keneedy (who for some reason was grouped with joba and phil) for johan.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:16 PM
Between what ages, is a "prime" according to you?
Isnt it typicallly 28-32 years old ? and johan is what 29 ? Now obviously johans prime started earlier then that since hes gotten 2 cy youngs already but I believe he will be on that level for at least another 5 years.

JeterForPresident
04-30-08, 06:20 PM
Wait so you would trade hughes and melky but not hughes, kennedy and melky ? That makes 0 sense since kennedy is clearly the worst of the 3. If anything you have to argue not wanting to trade hughes and/or melky not kennedy. Besides the twins werent asking for all three anyway. It looks like hughes and melky wouldve gotten it done. Personally melky is the guy i would least like to give up. I wouldve given them hughes and keneedy (who for some reason was grouped with joba and phil) for johan.

Kennedy was grouped with them because Cashman was trying to elevate his value, it is a nice technique. Saying Melky is the guy you would least want to give up is honestly not smart baseball business. It is easier to replace a CF like Melky than it is to find good pitching, which Hughes and Kennedy probably will be.

It is easy to say what you are saying now because Melky is hitting well and Hughes and Kennedy are pitching poorly. I might have made the deal with one of them and Melky but I wouldn't give up 2 pitchers and my starting CF for one pitcher no matter who it is. Then our rotation is what? CMW, Andy, Moose, Santana, and???? Igawa? Colon? Rasner? Please, spare me.

The Yankees needed a fundamental change in how they do business and Cashman did that. We couldn't keep buying our way out of problems, it wasn't working. We need to stop heading towards a $300 million dollar payroll of guys who in most cases best years are behind them. Now I am not saying Santana is like Brown or Randy when we got them, but he commands a high salary and isn't getting any younger.

I would love to win now, 27 in 2008 would be great (hey that rhymes) but I am willing to take one on the chin this year to be better in the future, not just on the field but financially more flexible as well.

MattUNC2003
04-30-08, 06:22 PM
Why is santana wrong for the long term ? The guy is right in the middle of his prime. Hell be an ace for another 5 years at least.

For starters, paying a pitcher 20 million a year until he is well into his 30's is beyond absurd no matter who he is.

In the long term, and one of the biggest reasons the Yanks didn't make the trade, the fiscal responsibility of another long-term $100+ million contract hurts the team. What if he gets seriously hurt? Nothing like having $20 million in dead, immovable money on your roster. Heck, we think that Pavano is horrible with his $10 million. That, and the fact that the Yanks spent almost $400 million last offseason and were cringing at the fact of adding another $120 million to it. Despite being the Yankees, the Yankees do actually have financial limitations. Their spending last offseason reached it.

Also, you don't really know that Santana will be an ace for five more years. Why put that much money (and give up that much talent to get him) when you just don't know? I think if he reached FA, the case would have been different and the Yanks would have been a bit more willing to break the bank to get him. But, as a trade possibility, giving up the current starting CF for the Yankees, and either the current ace of the rotation, or a couple of kids who potentially could be a very good ML pitchers PLUS the $120+ million that Santana was going to demand, Santana didn't make sense.

Long term, Cash and Hal are trying to lower payroll while maintaining a competitive nature and getting younger. Santana would have maintained the competitive nature, but wouldn't have allowed for the other two to happen.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:23 PM
For starters, paying a pitcher 20 million a year until he is well into his 30's is beyond absurd no matter who he is.

In the long term, and one of the biggest reasons the Yanks didn't make the trade, the fiscal responsibility of another long-term $100+ million contract hurts the team. What if he gets seriously hurt? Nothing like having $20 million in dead, immovable money on your roster. Heck, we think that Pavano is horrible with his $10 million. That, and the fact that the Yanks spent almost $400 million last offseason and were cringing at the fact of adding another $120 million to it. Despite being the Yankees, the Yankees do actually have financial limitations. Their spending last offseason reached it.

Also, you don't really know that Santana will be an ace for five more years. Why put that much money (and give up that much talent to get him) when you just don't know? I think if he reached FA, the case would have been different and the Yanks would have been a bit more willing to break the bank to get him. But, as a trade possibility, giving up the current starting CF for the Yankees, and either the current ace of the rotation, or a couple of kids who potentially could be a very good ML pitchers PLUS the $120+ million that Santana was going to demand, Santana didn't make sense.

Long term, Cash and Hal are trying to lower payroll while maintaining a competitive nature and getting younger. Santana would have maintained the competitive nature, but wouldn't have allowed for the other two to happen.
Whats more likely, santana being an ace for the next 5 years or hughes becoming as good as santana ??

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:25 PM
Kennedy was grouped with them because Cashman was trying to elevate his value, it is a nice technique. Saying Melky is the guy you would least want to give up is honestly not smart baseball business. It is easier to replace a CF like Melky than it is to find good pitching, which Hughes and Kennedy probably will be.

It is easy to say what you are saying now because Melky is hitting well and Hughes and Kennedy are pitching poorly. I might have made the deal with one of them and Melky but I wouldn't give up 2 pitchers and my starting CF for one pitcher no matter who it is. Then our rotation is what? CMW, Andy, Moose, Santana, and???? Igawa? Colon? Rasner? Please, spare me.

The Yankees needed a fundamental change in how they do business and Cashman did that. We couldn't keep buying our way out of problems, it wasn't working. We need to stop heading towards a $300 million dollar payroll of guys who in most cases best years are behind them. Now I am not saying Santana is like Brown or Randy when we got them, but he commands a high salary and isn't getting any younger.

I would love to win now, 27 in 2008 would be great (hey that rhymes) but I am willing to take one on the chin this year to be better in the future, not just on the field but financially more flexible as well.
Exactly cash was smart to play up keneedy only problem is he didnt trade him and we didnt get anything for playing him up. This guy is a 4 starter at best. Our rotation wouldve been johan,wang,pettite,moose and you could being up rasner for 5th starter. It wouldnt matter. Do you want a perfect team or something ? If you had johan,wang,and pettite to go with the best lineup in baseball (when healthy) and the best back end of the pen in baseball, you and I could be the 4th and 5th starters and we still win the ws.

apalradio
04-30-08, 06:27 PM
Honestly, in all fairness to Cash, it isn't even May yet and because Phil and Ian are pitching like Santana people are calling for his head. I mean realistically, what did we expect from this team this year? Cashman is building a team that starts with some young and talented players and works in some vets as well. It takes more than one offseason and a month of a season for that kind of thing to develop.

Ask the Red Sox, they didn't just start winning out of thin air, they have been making some good moves recently and had some luck as well, thats what it takes, that and time.In a way, they kind of did, actually. In '01, they finished 13.5 games behind us. In '02, it was 10.5. In '03, they were 6 games out at the end. Then with an ownership change, finishing 3 games behind us, and down to their final breath in the championships series against us, they came back from the dead and won it all. They kind of pulled it out of thin air, in a sense.

I think we do expect more from our team this year than what we've seen so far. We have enough talent to win a few more games than we have. IPK and Phil have enough talent to have won at least one game between them this month, and that hasn't happened. I don't fault Cash for those particular shortcomings, but I do hold him responsible for having no backup plan to our rotation woes. That doesn't mean he should be fired. I don't believe that. But it doesn't excuse him from some serious scrutiny and critique either.

MattUNC2003
04-30-08, 06:28 PM
Whats more likely, santana being an ace for the next 5 years or hughes becoming as good as santana ??

Do you know for a 100% fact that Santana will be an ace for the next five years? No.

Will Hughes become the next Santana? No.

Was it more fiscally responsible and better for the team in the long run to not deal for Santana? Yes.

njdhockey
04-30-08, 06:28 PM
I have full faith in Cashman. I want him to stay for a long time.

JeterForPresident
04-30-08, 06:32 PM
Exactly cash was smart to play up keneedy only problem is he didnt trade him and we didnt get anything for playing him up. This guy is a 4 starter at best. Our rotation wouldve been johan,wang,pettite,moose and you could being up rasner for 5th starter. It wouldnt matter. Do you want a perfect team or something ? If you had johan,wang,and pettite to go with the best lineup in baseball (when healthy) and the best back end of the pen in baseball, you and I could be the 4th and 5th starters and we still win the ws.

Do I want a perfect team???? I think the question is do you want a perfect team. You can't accept not winning the WS and I can so who is the one demanding perfection?

That is a nice rotation this year, but then next year it is Johan, maybe Andy...then what? Please don't say anyone can be a 4th or 5th starter it simply isn't true.

Godden
04-30-08, 06:34 PM
i think people have to understand
prospects are prospects.. not all of them turn out good.

Chin-Hui Tsao ranked as one of top prospect when he was 21 along with CC Sabathia.. it didn't turn out too great..

same with projections. Projections are not guarantee. There is a probability that hughes and kennedy will be great.. but it's not guarantee.. and i dont understand why people sound like it's a sure deal..

i think in dealing with prospects, we have to take the hit into concern that no all prospects develops..

Cashman decide to take the risk.. overall we have multiple prospects.. kennedy, joba, hughes, and that just gives us a better odds of having a sure thing

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:34 PM
Do I want a perfect team???? I think the question is do you want a perfect team. You can't accept not winning the WS and I can so who is the one demanding perfection?

That is a nice rotation this year, but then next year it is Johan, maybe Andy...then what? Please don't say anyone can be a 4th or 5th starter it simply isn't true.
Did you forget wang ?

And in 96 our 4th starter was kenny rogers. In 2000 it was neagle. We will make the postseason just on the lineup and pen. I still think we make it this year but we wont win the title. So you go into the postseason (where you only need 4 starters and only need 3 starts from your 4th starter) and you have johan, wang and pettitte leading the way. Couple that with joba and mo and its a slam dunk ws title.

sabermet prospectus
04-30-08, 06:34 PM
i think people have to understand
prospects are prospects.. not all of them turn out good.

Chin-Hui Tsao ranked as one of top prospect when he was 21 along with CC Sabathia.. it didn't turn out too great..

same with projections. Projections are not guarantee. There is a probability that hughes and kennedy will be great.. but it's not guarantee.. and i dont understand why people sound like it's a sure deal..

i think in dealing with prospects, we have to take the hit into concern that no all prospects develops..

Cashman decide to take the risk.. overall we have multiple prospects.. kennedy, joba, hughes, and that just gives us a better odds of having a sure thing
Exactly my point. Thats why you trade prospects when youre gonna get the best pitcher in baseball in his prime in return.

Byron
04-30-08, 06:57 PM
Having this conversation in April? Really?

Cashman has been GM for only this April?

jughead
04-30-08, 06:58 PM
Whats more likely, santana being an ace for the next 5 years or hughes becoming as good as santana ??That's a useless question. What you should be asking is: what are the odds Santana is worth more than Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, and $120,000,000 over the next 6 years. The answer? Not very good.

Byron
04-30-08, 06:58 PM
I voted yes but meant no...

hehe, we offset each other then... I voted no, but meant yes

DrNick
04-30-08, 07:16 PM
That's a useless question. What you should be asking is: what are the odds Santana is worth more than Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, and $120,000,000 over the next 6 years. The answer? Not very good.


And not even Santana is worth 2 starters 120 million and having to play Damon in CF

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 07:57 PM
Cashman has been GM for only this April?

:lol: Seriously. Cashman has been GM since 1998. The guy has brought upon some of the worst moves. Jeff Weaver, Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano (a no-brainer at the time), Kei Igawa, Kyle Farnsworth, LaTroy Hawkins, Darryl May, Javy Vasquez (good, but a major bust...but he can be blamed), Jose Contreras....do I have to continue?

Some good moves....David Justice, Bobby Abreu, Wells/Clemens, and a few others...

The guy has made a heap load of garbage moves. Sorry, but I don't want this guy back especially with his background of pitching.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 07:59 PM
Since Cashman was given full control and responsibility in '05, he's participated in the following trades:
Randy Johnson to Arizona for Luis Vizcaino, Ross Ohlendorf, Steven Jackson, and Alberto Gonzalez
Gary Sheffield to Detroit for Humberto Sanchez, Kevin Whelan, and Anthony Claggett
Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle from Philadelphia for C.J. Henry, Matt Smith, Jesus Sanchez, and Carlos MonasteriosIn case 1, he managed to get Arizona to take almost all of Johnson's salary and to give up a solid middle reliever, a future setup guy, and a valuable backup middle infielder for a 40-some odd year old pitcher who's had multiple back surgeries since the deal.

In case 2, he got rid of an aging malcontent who couldn't really play the outfield anymore for a premium prospect package. And he set this up by shrewdly picking up Sheffield's option which made the whole deal possible.

In case 3, he made a deadline deal to get a high-OBP right fielder and a back of the rotation starter for absolutely nothing. This deal just about saved the season for the Yankees, too, if you recall. Abreu was on fire the entire second half.


This is a C- effort to you? Seriously?

Hi, aren't you a Red Sox fan? Go to your thread.

mgpenguin
04-30-08, 08:01 PM
Hi, aren't you a Red Sox fan? Go to your thread.
Hi, can you refute his arguments? Didn't think so.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 08:02 PM
Hi, can you refute his arguments? Didn't think so.

I never disagreed with his points...good moves by Cashman...I'm talking about his overall progress as GM...it's been atrocious.

My opinion.

teknetic
04-30-08, 08:06 PM
Hi, aren't you a Red Sox fan? Go to your thread.

Hilarious. Sadly, there isn't a thread for people with horrid logic. :(

The Q Bomb
04-30-08, 08:07 PM
Re: Should Brian Cashman be re-upped after this season?

Can he hit?

YASS
04-30-08, 08:08 PM
I never disagreed with his points...good moves by Cashman...I'm talking about his overall progress as GM...it's been atrocious.

My opinion.
Hi, can you back up your opinion with facts?

Cashman has only had full control of the composition of the team since '05. He had to earn that authority from George Steinbrenner -- before then, he did what he was told. Many of the bad free agent signings you're complaining about were the sole responsibility of The Boss™.

So, since '05, how do you rate his trades and free agent acquisitions?


P.S.: Do you really think this topic belongs in the Red Sox thread?

DrNick
04-30-08, 08:20 PM
Hi, can you back up your opinion with facts?

Cashman has only had full control of the composition of the team since '05. He had to earn that authority from George Steinbrenner -- before then, he did what he was told. Many of the bad free agent signings you're complaining about were the sole responsibility of The Boss™.

So, since '05, how do you rate his trades and free agent acquisitions?


I rate his quick rebuilding of the farm system is 2+ years pretty damn good

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 09:14 PM
Hi, aren't you a Red Sox fan? Go to your thread.

Rude.

And if the Yankees were playing better right now, I doubt this thread would exist. Hence the April comment.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 09:21 PM
Rude.

And if the Yankees were playing better right now, I doubt this thread would exist.

WRONG! I don't like Brian Cashman as the Yankees GM. I'm entitled to this opinion. Thanks!

JeterRodriguezSheff
04-30-08, 09:21 PM
Depends on who is available to replace him. He is a good GM, but he has his flaws, and if we can improve there we should.

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 09:22 PM
WRONG! I don't like Brian Cashman as the Yankees GM. I'm entitled to this opinion. Thanks!

And guess what? People are entitled to disagree with you. Thanks!

MattUNC2003
04-30-08, 09:23 PM
WRONG! I don't like Brian Cashman as the Yankees GM. I'm entitled to this opinion. Thanks!

You do realize that if Cash weren't GM then the Yankees wouldn't have two of the three people that you have listed as "the future" in your sig, right? They'd be traded to the Twins for "ace for five years" Santana. Actually, you could argue that none of them would be Yankees, as the Yanks likely would have traded Hughes earlier for someone to fill an SP need, or to the Royals for Reggie Sanders. And without the recent Cashman emphasis in scouting and the draft, the Yanks likely wouldn't have nabbed Kennedy and Joba in 2006, either.

And, another thing I ask, if you're going to replace Cash at GM, then who do you replace him with? A Hank toady who does what Hank commands? Can't bring back Stick or Bob Watson (due to age), and Damon Oppenheimer belongs in the role that he's in (player development).

There's no real, viable replacement for Cash right now, like him or not.

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 09:24 PM
And guess what? People are entitled to disagree with you. Thanks!

No kidding. :-poke-:

I just love all of Brian Cashman's sympathizers.

JeterRodriguezSheff
04-30-08, 09:24 PM
FTR, its a little early to be crying doomsday, half the team is on the dl, the rookies have taken their lumps so far, nobody is hitting a lick, and the team is still only either 2 or 3 games(just got back from work and didnt check to see who won or loss so i dont know) out of first in April. It would be unfair to judge Cashman on this season, when it isnt even close to being even halfway over yet.

Rich
04-30-08, 09:26 PM
You do realize that if Cash weren't GM then the Yankees wouldn't have two of the three people that you have listed as "the future" in your sig, right? They'd be traded to the Twins for "ace for 5 years" Santana.

And, another thing I ask, if you're going to replace Cash at GM, then who do you replace him with? A Hank toady who does what Hank commands? Can't bring back Stick or Bob Watson (due to age), and Damon Oppenheimer belongs in the role that he's in (player development).

There's no real, viable replacement for Cash right now, like him or not.

Excellent point, and to take it one step further, they may never have devised the strategy to draft IPK and Joba if Cash wasn't the GM, given his emphasis on drafting high ceiling talent with signability issues.

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 09:27 PM
No kidding. :-poke-:

I just love all of Brian Cashman's sympathizers.

I'm not a Cashman sympathizer. I just think your argument against him is pretty irrational.

And who would you want to replace him? Aren't you the one with the hard on for Oppenheimer?

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 09:31 PM
You do realize that if Cash weren't GM then the Yankees wouldn't have two of the three people that you have listed as "the future" in your sig, right? They'd be traded to the Twins for "ace for five years" Santana. Actually, you could argue that none of them would be Yankees, as the Yanks likely would have traded Hughes earlier for someone to fill an SP need, or to the Royals for Reggie Sanders. And without the recent Cashman emphasis in scouting and the draft, the Yanks likely wouldn't have nabbed Kennedy and Joba in 2006, either.

And, another thing I ask, if you're going to replace Cash at GM, then who do you replace him with? A Hank toady who does what Hank commands? Can't bring back Stick or Bob Watson (due to age), and Damon Oppenheimer belongs in the role that he's in (player development).

There's no real, viable replacement for Cash right now, like him or not.

I wanted Santana and I was never shy about saying it. But I also wanted Hughes, Kennedy and Joba. I'm glad we kept them because they're young and have a ton of upside, but the way the team is going right now it's depressing.

I'd be GM. :D

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 09:32 PM
I'm not a Cashman sympathizer. I just think your argument against him is pretty irrational.

And who would you want to replace him? Aren't you the one with the hard on for Oppenheimer?

I don't have a hard-on for Oppenheimer. I just think the guy has an eye for talent. Brian Cashman is a bookkeeper in my opinion.

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 09:34 PM
I don't have a hard-on for Oppenheimer. I just think the guy has an eye for talent. Brian Cashman is a bookkeeper in my opinion.

You didn't answer the other question. Who would you replace Cash with?

YankeesAce4Life
04-30-08, 09:36 PM
You didn't answer the other question. Who would you replace Cash with?

I'd have to go with Oppenheimer. That doesn't mean I have a hard-on for the guy, I just think the guy could manage the deals better than Cashman.

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 09:38 PM
I'd have to go with Oppenheimer. That doesn't mean I have a hard-on for the guy, I just think the guy could manage the deals better than Cashman.

The hard on comment was just a figure of speech. Don't take it so literally. :P

Oppenheimer has no experience in contract negotiations, right?

MattUNC2003
04-30-08, 09:45 PM
Excellent point, and to take it one step further, they may never have devised the strategy to draft IPK and Joba if Cash wasn't the GM, given his emphasis on drafting high ceiling talent with signability issues.

Man, you're faster than I am....I was editing that into my post as you typed that. Funny.

BillBuckner
04-30-08, 09:46 PM
I cringe whenever I think, just for a second, of where this team would be right now if Cashman was fired after 2003.

KINGOFNY
04-30-08, 09:51 PM
He should not be fired. His contract is up. It probably will not be renewed. He will be shown the door just like Torre and they will chalked it up to "change is needed."

Yes,and Hank Steinbrenner will go on a FA shopping spree.Sabathia,Sheets.

bronxburning
04-30-08, 10:22 PM
Yes,and Hank Steinbrenner will go on a FA shopping spree.Sabathia,Sheets.

It is nothing personal just business. Cash will be shown the door just like they did to Joe. Someone has to take the hit for not making the playoffs or not winning the first round of the playoffs. Looking at his body demeanor, Cash is ready to take the hit. The owners can't be fired. Giardi just joined the club with a new coaching staff, so it will be Cash to take the hit this time.

BillBuckner
04-30-08, 10:30 PM
I am absolutely revolted that 38% of this board actually voted Yes.

TEPLimey
04-30-08, 10:34 PM
The demand for instant gratification that pervades these boards is a microcosm of the "now" mentality that is sending our entire society down the tubes.

I continue to be disappointed, yet unsurprised by the masses with whom I am forced to live amongst.

teknetic
04-30-08, 10:37 PM
You do realize that if Cash weren't GM then the Yankees wouldn't have two of the three people that you have listed as "the future" in your sig, right?

This was already brought up in another thread and the poster sideswiped the question and gave credit to Oppenheimer and crew for the picks. Don't expect a legit answer.

flymick24
04-30-08, 10:40 PM
I am absolutely revolted that 38% of this board actually voted Yes.

just curious, but who would you replace him with?

BillBuckner
04-30-08, 11:03 PM
just curious, but who would you replace him with?
NO ONE.

bronxburning
04-30-08, 11:11 PM
NO ONE.

There are many talented FO guys out there. Cash got the job becasue he knows the Steinbrenner family.

Dirty Coke
04-30-08, 11:12 PM
Cash got the job becasue he knows the Steinbrenner family.

Say what?

BillBuckner
04-30-08, 11:17 PM
There are many talented FO guys out there. Cash got the job becasue he knows the Steinbrenner family.
Do you actually have a link or some kind of source behind this statement?

bomber999
04-30-08, 11:45 PM
I look at this sabermet guy as the guy who wants 27 now and doesn't care that getting Santana, while a good move in the short term, wasn't in the best interests of this team in the long term. We should be thankful Cash didn't go for it all here in 2008 even knowing his job might be on the line if they don't win it all.

I understand your point, and it has its merits. However, I sometimes get the feeling that people on this board think of Santana as a 37 year-old, over-the-hill pitcher whose best days are clearly behind him. In reality, he is a two-time Cy Young winner in the AL, left-handed, in his prime, and an unquestioned top-of-the-rotation ace. The Yankees are a team with a $200+ million payroll, who just resigned ARod, Posada, and Rivera at big money, clearly designed to win now, who chose to rest their fortunes in this scenario with two untested, raw, rookie pitchers, designed to win later (if ever).

The best interests of the team would have been served to have a pitching rotation that balanced the team as it was constructed for the next several years. Santana would have been a great fit on the Yankees, now and for several years in the future. For those worried about the payroll, the price of Santana would have been partially offset by the money coming off the payroll after this year. After all the money the Yankees have spent of absolute dreck the past 6 years (e.g. Pavano, Wright, Lofton, Womack, Contreras, Igawa), it is stunning that they suddenly became "fiscally responsible" when they passed on the best pitcher in baseball.

Cashman himself has said that all prospects are suspects. He is correct. No matter what they do in the minors, there are absolutely no guarantees that they will become great major leaguers. And trading high-end prospects, even when they pan out, is not the worst thing in the world provided that you get something great back in return. Do you think that the RS are wringing their hands over giving up Anibel Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez for Beckett (and, as a "throw in", Lowell?) They knew that they needed Beckett to put them over the top, and they pulled the trigger, with obvious results. The Yankees have needed an ace for a number of years, and Cashman had a golden opportunity to get one, and squandered it. I'm not saying he should not come back as GM. I am saying that he will have to answer for his decisions.

trapper700
04-30-08, 11:49 PM
Your poll is confusing!!!! :argh:

the topic title asks for whether cashman should be re-signed and your poll asks if he should be kicked out? I didn't even read the poll question and voted yes by accident. he should definitely be staying, i'm not sure many other people can handle the steinbrenners alone, as well as all the players and the rabid fans.

cyhughes22
05-01-08, 12:09 AM
I understand your point, and it has its merits. However, I sometimes get the feeling that people on this board think of Santana as a 37 year-old, over-the-hill pitcher whose best days are clearly behind him. In reality, he is a two-time Cy Young winner in the AL, left-handed, in his prime, and an unquestioned top-of-the-rotation ace. The Yankees are a team with a $200+ million payroll, who just resigned ARod, Posada, and Rivera at big money, clearly designed to win now, who chose to rest their fortunes in this scenario with two untested, raw, rookie pitchers, designed to win later (if ever).

The best interests of the team would have been served to have a pitching rotation that balanced the team as it was constructed for the next several years. Santana would have been a great fit on the Yankees, now and for several years in the future. For those worried about the payroll, the price of Santana would have been partially offset by the money coming off the payroll after this year. After all the money the Yankees have spent of absolute dreck the past 6 years (e.g. Pavano, Wright, Lofton, Womack, Contreras, Igawa), it is stunning that they suddenly became "fiscally responsible" when they passed on the best pitcher in baseball.

Cashman himself has said that all prospects are suspects. He is correct. No matter what they do in the minors, there are absolutely no guarantees that they will become great major leaguers. And trading high-end prospects, even when they pan out, is not the worst thing in the world provided that you get something great back in return. Do you think that the RS are wringing their hands over giving up Anibel Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez for Beckett (and, as a "throw in", Lowell?) They knew that they needed Beckett to put them over the top, and they pulled the trigger, with obvious results. The Yankees have needed an ace for a number of years, and Cashman had a golden opportunity to get one, and squandered it. I'm not saying he should not come back as GM. I am saying that he will have to answer for his decisions.

Let's call Santana what he really is if we're being fair. He's a guy who isn't exactly lighting up the NL and who has mysteriously lost 4 mph on his fastball at the age of 28. Those are facts that are not disputable. Is that the kind of guy you want to give over 150 million dollars to for the next 6 years? And to me, a guy in his prime doesn't have peripherals that have been declining sharply for the last 4 years. That along with losing 4 mph off of his fastball(which greatly decreases the effectiveness of his best pitch, the changeup) tells me to stay away from him for that amount of time and money.

flymick24
05-01-08, 12:09 AM
this poll is officially retarded... the title of the thread is misleading

my balls hurt

shotz
05-01-08, 12:13 AM
im outta of more boozes

dougj1
05-01-08, 03:11 AM
Should Cashman be fired?...Let's see..1.If you are a Red Sox fan you want him to stay...2. If you know nothing about baseball you want him to stay...3.If you are his momma,you want him to stay..4.If you are some sort of sadist who enjoys watching the once greatest franchise in baseball turn into an also ran that no longer can get out of the 1st round of playoffs, you want him to stay...5.If you are an idiot, you want him to stay.

Tabata
05-01-08, 03:32 AM
I'm not just talking about his work with Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. I am dating back to Jeff Weaver and Kevin Brown.

What say you?
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9324/prayuo9ms5.jpg

Tabata
05-01-08, 03:36 AM
Should Cashman be fired?...Let's see..1.If you are a Red Sox fan you want him to stay...2. If you know nothing about baseball you want him to stay...3.If you are his momma,you want him to stay..4.If you are some sort of sadist who enjoys watching the once greatest franchise in baseball turn into an also ran that no longer can get out of the 1st round of playoffs, you want him to stay...5.If you are an idiot, you want him to stay.
Who should replace him then? Go on, give us a few names.

dougj1
05-01-08, 03:55 AM
Well, since we might not be able to get Theo from the Sox,or Dombrowski, or Beane, or Shapiro, how about delving into the possibility of an Ass't GM who is with one of those clubs?....Cashman was once a GM, so was Theo and a bunch of other GMs as well....To keep Cashman because you dont feel there is a replacement available is just as dumb as letting this "brilliant" GM , who is now in his 3rd year of his "plan" to rebuild the team, which is proving to be IRRESPONSIBLE!. ...OK,Aussie?

Tabata
05-01-08, 04:18 AM
Well, since we might not be able to get Theo from the Sox,or Dombrowski, or Beane, or Shapiro, how about delving into the possibility of an Ass't GM who is with one of those clubs?....Cashman was once a GM, so was Theo and a bunch of other GMs as well....To keep Cashman because you dont feel there is a replacement available is just as dumb as letting this "brilliant" GM , who is now in his 3rd year of his "plan" to rebuild the team, which is proving to be IRRESPONSIBLE!. ...OK,Aussie?
So you can't name anyone? How do you know an assistant GM will be able to handle the main role here?

You do realise rebuilding a whole farm system and most of the ballclub doesn't happen over night, yes? Go and have a look at the talent we now have in the farm. He has a big part to play in that.

dougj1
05-01-08, 04:43 AM
How do I know that an asst GM can take over the job as GM?..How do you think Cashman got the GM job.He was the asst...As to rebuilding the farm, Oppenheimer is responsible for the new crop and Cano & Melky are the only young players for the previous few years....Cashman had many scouting directors before Oppenheimer and all of them were replaced until he finally got a good one....Look, you can keep Cashman forever since you feel he is deserving. To me, I look at the facts, and what I see is someone in over his head who has fielded a terrible starting pitching staff,an unbalanced hitting team, a never improving defense, a non existant bench, and some sort of "plan" which has proven nothing but the same ol stuff...This man after 10 years, has never had to look for a closer,a Shortstop or catcher. Just wait to see how he will fill those key rolls in the future. $ 200 million+ for an also ran.Sad.

Tabata
05-01-08, 05:17 AM
How do I know that an asst GM can take over the job as GM?..How do you think Cashman got the GM job.He was the asst...As to rebuilding the farm, Oppenheimer is responsible for the new crop and Cano & Melky are the only young players for the previous few years....Cashman had many scouting directors before Oppenheimer and all of them were replaced until he finally got a good one....Look, you can keep Cashman forever since you feel he is deserving. To me, I look at the facts, and what I see is someone in over his head who has fielded a terrible starting pitching staff,an unbalanced hitting team, a never improving defense, a non existant bench, and some sort of "plan" which has proven nothing but the same ol stuff...This man after 10 years, has never had to look for a closer,a Shortstop or catcher. Just wait to see how he will fill those key rolls in the future. $ 200 million+ for an also ran.Sad.
Cashman was a different story. He started in the organization when he was young and worked his way up through it. So what you are really asking for is for the Yankees to give their GM job to someone who’s never had the top role anywhere before? How do you know this person will be able to handle being the main boss let alone doing it in a place like New York? If we can’t at least get someone who’s had some experience of the main role, then I’d rather get someone from within now go and find a no body.

It’s funny how you don’t give any credit to Cashman for Oppenheimer or the new farm at all. By the looks of it you’re just another Cashman hater who’s upset because he can’t deliver a championship every season. I’m sure you won’t put your hand up in 2 or 3 years if he has this team winning the world series and say you were wrong.

nnysiny
05-01-08, 06:42 AM
this is total bridgejumper thread

False1
05-01-08, 09:28 AM
Should Cashman be fired?...Let's see..1.If you are a Red Sox fan you want him to stay...2. If you know nothing about baseball you want him to stay...3.If you are his momma,you want him to stay..4.If you are some sort of sadist who enjoys watching the once greatest franchise in baseball turn into an also ran that no longer can get out of the 1st round of playoffs, you want him to stay...5.If you are an idiot, you want him to stay.Proof positive that people that can't substantiate emotionally driven opinions make retarded posts. How about some facts that back up your opinion? I'm particularly interested in #2 and #5. What, you've got more baseball intelligence than the rest of this board? You won your baseball fantasy league once so now you're a master talent evaluator?

This team has been in the playoffs for more than a decade running. By your criteria in #4 there isn't a GM in baseball qualified to run this team. Cash has made some good moves that panned out, some good moves that didn't pan out, and some bad moves. Kind of reminds me of every other "good" GM in that regard. He has the gonads to not get rolled by the crazy NYY FO. He's oversaw the reconstruction of the farm system. We're 30 games into 2008 and in spite of another batch of injuries and a poor offensive showing the team is staying at the break even mark. Calm down some.

ymike673
05-01-08, 02:27 PM
One question you have to ask yourself is if Cashman is let go how many GM candidates out there are going to be willing to work for Hank S? Much like when George was running things in the 1980's the top guys at that time were not interested in being the Yankees GM. Cashman has made his share of mistakes but so far he has been able to handle Hank to some extent.

a-RobinsonCano-Fan
05-01-08, 02:45 PM
I feel Cash has done nothing wrong. The arms will develop, and the hitting will come. All hail Cash!