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View Full Version : Pujols says MVP should come from playoff team



cmaff05
11-29-06, 08:01 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ApYKBl3bPFz1f2rr6pHGmIA5nYcB?slug=ap-cardinals-pujols&prov=ap&type=lgns



SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic (AP) -- Albert Pujols thinks he was snubbed.
The St Louis Cardinals slugger is upset he lost out to Philadelphia's Ryan Howard for the National League MVP award, saying Wednesday the honor should go to someone on a playoff team.
"I see it this way: Someone who doesn't take his team to the playoffs doesn't deserve to win the MVP," Pujols said in Spanish at a news conference organized by the Dominican Republic's sports ministry. Pujols led the Cardinals to the NL Central title this year and their first World Series championship since 1982. Howard and the Phillies missed the playoffs -- though they won two more regular-season games than St. Louis did.


Please, Pujols. STFU. Have some class. Your team almost had a monumental collapse. You guys won 83 games. The Phillies won 87 games. The only reason you were in the playoffs is because you played in a historically bad divison. You have no room to talk.

Pujols is a great ball player but he needs a nice cold glass of STFU.

JeffWeaverFan
11-29-06, 09:56 PM
I do think he should have been the MVP last year, but it was quite close.

scull567
11-29-06, 09:57 PM
Pujols has become quite the jerk.

BroadwayBomber55
11-29-06, 10:03 PM
Memo to Albert Pujols: Chill. You're a great player. You already won some MVPs. You just won a World Series. What more do you want?!

Bern51
11-29-06, 10:05 PM
Pujols always has had quite an attitude and has put down other players through the media before. Certainly not a very Jeter-like attitude.

MatsuiFan55
11-29-06, 10:17 PM
Didn't Pujols see what happened to Faith Hill when she opened her mouth at the CMA's? Show some class, Albert.

In Mo I Trust
11-29-06, 10:57 PM
I thought he should have been the NL MVP, but he should take a page out of AL MVP runner up Derek Jeter and have some class.

Evil Empire
11-29-06, 11:07 PM
They vote before the season's over, no? The Phillies were in it till the end so Howard was quite important, I'm sure. Sure, they didn't make the playoffs, but they were contenders, and that's good enough I think.

Sam18
11-30-06, 02:47 AM
The Phillies were a better team than the Cards in the regular season. Pujols is right about him being the real MVP but his reasoning is wrong.

jimmyclark
11-30-06, 02:56 AM
I bet Ryan Howard would trade his MVP trophy for Pujols's World Series ring. If writers were to vote for MVPs from playoff teams only the award would be diminished. You would be selecting from a pool of only 4 teams instead of 14 or 16.

RollingWave
11-30-06, 04:02 AM
Pujols is preparing his eventural arrival to be a Yankee. we really could use him now to give A-rod some "protection" (from stupid comments feasted by the media that is :P)

Big_E
11-30-06, 04:55 AM
I agree with him...it's not the "Player of the Year" award, it's the most valuable player. How valuable is someone whose team doesn't even make the watered-down playoffs?

RollingWave
11-30-06, 06:59 AM
agree with him...it's not the "Player of the Year" award, it's the most valuable player. How valuable is someone whose team doesn't even make the watered-down playoffs? this would have made sense if the Phillies were a under .500 team ... but the fact is the Phillies actually won more games than the Cardinals in a tougher division, the only reason the Cardinals were in and the Phillies were out was because of the aboslatue joke that was the NL central last year, where they had the Astros that can't hit and had a self implosion of a closer, the Reds who apparently belive that trading good young playesr for a hoard of very mediocare relievers is the way to go, the Brewers who lost most of their key players to injuries, and the biggest joke of all times the Cubs. along with the second biggest joke the Pirates.?

At least the NL east only had 1 truely joke of a team and had one great team.

pjfan
11-30-06, 07:35 AM
I bet Ryan Howard would trade his MVP trophy for Pujols's World Series ring. If writers were to vote for MVPs from playoff teams only the award would be diminished. You would be selecting from a pool of only 4 teams instead of 14 or 16.

no .....................shows a lot about a player when he's complaining that he didn't win an individual award, yet his team won the world series.

Hey Al, keep your mouth shut till March.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 08:45 AM
He's a 1000 percent right. What exactly was Ryan Howard valuable to? No one has been able to explain that to me yet. What did he valuably lead his team to? The golf course?


That's without even getting into Pujols being clearly the better all around player.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 08:47 AM
I bet Ryan Howard would trade his MVP trophy for Pujols's World Series ring. If writers were to vote for MVPs from playoff teams only the award would be diminished. You would be selecting from a pool of only 4 teams instead of 14 or 16.


That's the way it should be. How is a player on a non playoff team valuable? What value did he provide that anyone else on earth couldn't have gotten the same end result?

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 08:49 AM
They vote before the season's over, no? .


No. They vote after the last game of the season.

Dannman103
11-30-06, 08:52 AM
He's a 1000 percent right. What exactly was Ryan Howard valuable to? No one has been able to explain that to me yet. What did he valuably lead his team to? The golf course?


That's without even getting into Pujols being clearly the better all around player.

well if the phillies were in Pujols' division, then they would have won it buy four games....why should Pujols be rewarded for having his team barely win a terrible division?

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 09:11 AM
well if the phillies were in Pujols' division, then they would have won it buy four games...

But...they weren't. They were completely non-competitive in their division. They weren't in the Central. If they were in any other division in baseball, they would have lost. We're not dealing with the 93 Giants here. Its two mediocre teams that finished a game and a half apart, one playing to their division, the other buried by it.

Thats without even going into how Pujols performance over the last week almost singlehandedly saved the year.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 09:17 AM
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"><td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18"> Date</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18">Opponent</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18">Score</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 26</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">SDG</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AsaWUUiJV9sPY_v_dyg0Z7.FCLcF/SIG=11ppaciso/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260926124)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 25</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">SDG</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AgWS0QwQd9fRP7injXffH2aFCLcF/SIG=11pru60vk/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260925124)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 24</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 3-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AkLlf_fbysPZ4hNpYfT0fSyFCLcF/SIG=11p6t4sq4/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260924118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 23</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 4-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AjHj1Cn4brTDtifw.B996GOFCLcF/SIG=11p6l3dq6/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260923118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 22</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AkvgX37Bu2AI_y1MVikHpV.FCLcF/SIG=11pnkkf9t/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260922118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 21</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AmFdjwd2eoJSplSkCX.0iaGFCLcF/SIG=11pnkif1t/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260921118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 20</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ MIL</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 0-1 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AvXVXd6d32nlm9le4cPmFTeFCLcF/SIG=11pio6s3i/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260920108)</td> </tr></tbody></table>
Dear "MVP", while your team was making their best effort to choke everything away, you only had 1 extra base hit (a double), drove in only 2 runs, and had an OPS .290 below your season OPS. And yeah your team made the playoffs but 83 wins? :lol: Enjoy the WS title and your receding hairline.

cmaff05
11-30-06, 09:21 AM
But...they weren't. They were completely non-competitive in their division. They weren't in the Central. If they were in any other division in baseball, they would have lost. We're not dealing with the 93 Giants here. Its two mediocre teams that finished a game and a half apart, one playing to their division, the other buried by it.

Thats without even going into how Pujols performance over the last week almost singlehandedly saved the year.

Wow, he sured saved their season. 2 RBIs during that almost historic weeklong collapse. And an 83 win season.

Congratulations Pujols.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 09:29 AM
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"><td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18"> Date</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18">Opponent</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18">Score</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 26</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">SDG</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AsaWUUiJV9sPY_v_dyg0Z7.FCLcF/SIG=11ppaciso/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260926124)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 25</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">SDG</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AgWS0QwQd9fRP7injXffH2aFCLcF/SIG=11pru60vk/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260925124)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 24</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 3-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AkLlf_fbysPZ4hNpYfT0fSyFCLcF/SIG=11p6t4sq4/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260924118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 23</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 4-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AjHj1Cn4brTDtifw.B996GOFCLcF/SIG=11p6l3dq6/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260923118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 22</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AkvgX37Bu2AI_y1MVikHpV.FCLcF/SIG=11pnkkf9t/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260922118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 21</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AmFdjwd2eoJSplSkCX.0iaGFCLcF/SIG=11pnkif1t/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260921118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 20</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ MIL</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 0-1 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AvXVXd6d32nlm9le4cPmFTeFCLcF/SIG=11pio6s3i/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260920108)</td> </tr></tbody></table>
Dear "MVP", while your team was making their best effort to choke everything away, you only had 1 extra base hit (a double), drove in only 2 runs, and had an OPS .290 below your season OPS. And yeah your team made the playoffs but 83 wins? :lol: Enjoy the WS title and your receding hairline.

Is there a reason you arbitrarily stopped on the 26th or was that just to make a false point?

Albert Pujols over the last seven games of the regular season (9/24-9/30)
10/26 (.385) 7 RBI, 2 2B, 2 HR, five runs scored.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 09:31 AM
Wow, he sured saved their season. 2 RBIs during that almost historic weeklong collapse.

Am I just reading different numbers? Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

cmaff05
11-30-06, 09:35 AM
Am I just reading different numbers? Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

I used Panamaniac's numbers. That week he only had two RBIs. Bottom line is that if they win one game that week they win the division then and there. Instead they got lucky that Houston was an atrocius team and beat horrible teams like the Brewers.

Repeat after me: 83 wins.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 09:40 AM
I used Panamaniac's numbers. That week he only had two RBIs.


Okay. I just have one question. In the land of make believe, where the last week of the season didn't happen, and presumably the Cardinals lose the divison, who wins the World Series? Do the Astros follow the same path as the Cards and write one for the history books? Or do they fall to the Padres or Mets? This pretend universe that you guys created sort of intrigues me.



Repeat after me: 83 wins. Damn. I know not everyone can live up to the lofty Ryan Howard standard of 85 wins and 12 games out of first place, but you'd think people could cut him some slack.

noneckwilliams
11-30-06, 09:42 AM
Pujols has become quite the jerk.

I can't remember which sportswriter said it but apparently Pujols is quite a pain in the ass for the media to deal with. If he played in Boston or NYC this would be more widely known.

If ARod had said this it would be a topic of debate in thje ESPN studio for at least 2 or 3 days.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 09:44 AM
Is there a reason you arbitrarily stopped on the 26th or was that just to make a false point?



There was nothing arbitrary about me outlining the 7-game losing streak that was the lowlight of the Cardinals season and almost resulted in them not even making the playoffs. On Sept. 19, they had a 7-game lead in the division. After their flop, on Sept. 26, they were left clinging to a 1.5-game lead in the division.

*Edited to show restraint

cmaff05
11-30-06, 09:47 AM
Okay. I just have one question. In the land of make believe, where the last week of the season didn't happen, and presumably the Cardinals lose the divison, who wins the World Series? Do the Astros follow the same path as the Cards and write one for the history books? Or do they fall to the Padres or Mets? This pretend universe that you guys created sort of intrigues me.

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are making no sense at all. The bottom line is, as Houston slowly started pecking away at the division lead during the week of 9/20-9/26, Pujols was nowhere to be found. The fact that Houston was such a bad team was the Cardinals saving grace, not Pujols.


Damn. I know not everyone can live up to the lofty Ryan Howard standard of 85 wins and 12 games out of first place, but you'd think people could cut him some slack.

I'm not Albert Einstein (or Theo Epstein for that matter), but isn't 85 wins more than 83 wins? Is there really any basis for Pujols comments... i mean, couldn't he just say "If I hadn't played in a historically bad division this year, I wouldn't have made the playoffs.. and me and Ryan Howard would both be sitting home for the playoffs and I wouldn't have to make my stupid point".

I mean, winning 83 games and making the playoffs isn't exactly something to call home about.

halokiller911
11-30-06, 09:50 AM
But...they weren't. They were completely non-competitive in their division. They weren't in the Central. If they were in any other division in baseball, they would have lost. We're not dealing with the 93 Giants here. Its two mediocre teams that finished a game and a half apart, one playing to their division, the other buried by it.

Thats without even going into how Pujols performance over the last week almost singlehandedly saved the year.

The Phillies and Cardinals had an even record in September 22 which was 80-73. Since then the Phillies went 5-4. The Cardinals meanwhile went 3-5. This isn't 2004 Guerrero we're talking about. If Pujols was more of a factor, they wouldn't had been limping into the playoffs in the first place.

Besides 85 wins > 83 wins whichever way you put it.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 09:51 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about. You are making no sense at all. The bottom line is, as Houston slowly started pecking away at the division lead during the week of 9/20-9/26, Pujols was nowhere to be found. The fact that Houston was such a bad team was the Cardinals saving grace, not Pujols.

Exactly. And Albert wasn't really atrocious during their 7-game nosedive (he hit over .300 and drew some walks)...but his power production consisted of 2 rbi and 1 double. Not exactly MVP-material while the ship is sinking. Look the overall body of work is fantastic but to argue for him on the 83-win team that tried to give it away as opposed to Howard is trivial, and Pujols just looks dumb here.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 10:02 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about.


Probably because your point makes no sense, and I'm trying to make sense out of it. I've pointed out, repeatedly, that over the last week of the season Pujols almost singlehandedly won the division for them. Everyone else's point seems to be that that means nothing because the week before he had two RBIs.

I just don't understand what one has to do with the other. In the last seven games of the season, when the Cardinals were ina dog fight, when they needed him most, Albert Pujols was on top of his game. He brought his team to the playoffs when Howard could not, either by division or wild card. When you add that to Pujols having better defense, Batting average, On base percntage, slugging percentage and (obviously) OPS, and OPS+, I don't even see what we're arguing over? RBIs? Yay?

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 10:03 AM
There was nothing arbitrary about me outlining the 7-game losing streak

No, its just skewed to make it look like Pujols was to blame for the collapse, while completely ignoring that he wound up saving their season.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 10:15 AM
Exactly. And Albert wasn't really atrocious during their 7-game nosedive (he hit over .300 and drew some walks)..

Well, ................ me, I don't even know how Pujols got second place. Not only did he go 8/25 with a double and 6 walks and drag his team to the brink, but then he didn't do anything that next week.


I am sold. Next time I campaign for the best player in the league to be MVP based on his numbers and work in the last week of the season, I'll remember to hold the prior week, where he hit .320 and got on base at a .450 clip, against him. Then I'll give the award to the guy with the RBIs.

Howard should have won MVP. Followed by Berkman, Then Soriano. I'll even throw in a vote for Ortiz to appease the Red Sox fans (The Red Sox would have won the NL Central too, donchaknow)

halokiller911
11-30-06, 10:28 AM
Well, ................ me, I don't even know how Pujols got second place. Not only did he go 8/25 with a double and 6 walks and drag his team to the brink, but then he didn't do anything that next week.


I am sold. Next time I campaign for the best player in the league to be MVP based on his numbers and work in the last week of the season, I'll remember to hold the prior week, where he hit .320 and got on base at a .450 clip, against him. Then I'll give the award to the guy with the RBIs.

Howard should have won MVP. Followed by Berkman, Then Soriano. I'll even throw in a vote for Ortiz to appease the Red Sox fans (The Red Sox would have won the NL Central too, donchaknow)

Are you really that dense? Pujols deserves MVP because he has better overall STATS than Howard. Period.

Pujols and Howard both had comparable stats at the end of the week; yet the Phillies won more games than them during the same span. Pujols certainly isn't blamed for the collapse, but he certainly isn't deserving of "willing the team" into the playoffs like you say he did.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 10:34 AM
No, its just skewed to make it look like Pujols was to blame for the collapse, while completely ignoring that he wound up saving their season.

It's not skewed. And I never said he's to blame for the collapse, I just said he didn't show up in MVP style while his team was dying. Helping them back into the playoffs = saving their season. You act like Pujols is such a slam dunk over Howard - are you always a sarcastic ass when you disagree with someone?

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 10:39 AM
Are you really that dense? Pujols deserves MVP because he has better overall STATS than Howard. Period.

Pujols and Howard both had comparable stats at the end of the week; yet the Phillies won more games than them during the same span. Pujols certainly isn't blamed for the collapse, but he certainly isn't deserving of "willing the team" into the playoffs like you say he did.

I completely agree with you. If you want to say Pujols had better stats than Howard and therefore deserves MVP, great. I don't understand the illusion that Albert Pujols strapped them on his back down the stretch, when in actuality they floundered to get to 83 wins and he was very quiet during their 7 game losing streak in late September.

PinstripePride
11-30-06, 10:40 AM
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"><td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18"> Date</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18">Opponent</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18">Score</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 26</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">SDG</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AsaWUUiJV9sPY_v_dyg0Z7.FCLcF/SIG=11ppaciso/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260926124)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 25</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">SDG</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AgWS0QwQd9fRP7injXffH2aFCLcF/SIG=11pru60vk/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260925124)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 24</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 3-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AkLlf_fbysPZ4hNpYfT0fSyFCLcF/SIG=11p6t4sq4/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260924118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 23</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 4-7 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AjHj1Cn4brTDtifw.B996GOFCLcF/SIG=11p6l3dq6/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260923118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 22</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AkvgX37Bu2AI_y1MVikHpV.FCLcF/SIG=11pnkkf9t/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260922118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 21</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ HOU</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 5-6 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AmFdjwd2eoJSplSkCX.0iaGFCLcF/SIG=11pnkif1t/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260921118)</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"> <td class="yspscores" align="left"> Sep 20</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">@ MIL</td> <td class="yspscores" align="left">L 0-1 (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=AvXVXd6d32nlm9le4cPmFTeFCLcF/SIG=11pio6s3i/**http%3a//sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore%3fgid=260920108)</td> </tr></tbody></table>
Dear "MVP", while your team was making their best effort to choke everything away, you only had 1 extra base hit (a double), drove in only 2 runs, and had an OPS .290 below your season OPS. And yeah your team made the playoffs but 83 wins? :lol: Enjoy the WS title and your receding hairline.

Exactly. Why piss and moan about something like this and make yourself look like a fool, ESPECIALLY after you collapsed during the team's slide, AND the Phillies won more games.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 10:42 AM
Exactly. Why piss and moan about something like this and make yourself look like a fool, ESPECIALLY after you collapsed during the team's slide, AND the Phillies won more games.

Right. You just won the World Series, you had an awesome season, why split hairs and make yourself look selfish? Maybe he's still frustrated from getting robbed repeatedly by Bonds, I don't know.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 10:49 AM
It's not skewed. And I never said he's to blame for the collapse, I just said he didn't show up in MVP style while his team was dying. ?

if you completely ignore the last week of the season (which you clearly do) You're right.

So rather than argue with you over that, I'll just agree.

Ryan Howard was clearly the MVP of the National League and Albert Pujols is just bitter.


There we go, and I'm done with this stupid argument.

CardNYY
11-30-06, 10:54 AM
First the Glavine comment, and now this. He finally won a ring. I wish he would shut up. Had he not gotten injured for the better part of the 1st half, he would've won the award easily.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 10:57 AM
if you completely ignore the last week of the season (which you clearly do) You're right.

...

There we go, and I'm done with this stupid argument.



Ok I'll stop ignoring it, Albert said climb on my back boys and ride me to a 3-4 record over the last week of the season. Let's fend off the crappy Astros and barely win the division with 83 wins after we had an enormous lead. Quite simply, the stuff legends are made of.

Again, Albert had a phenomenal year, has had a great career, he just won the World Series, he won the MVP last year...he didn't need to speak out and basically discredit Howard's legitimacy here.

Oh, and it was never an argument. Perhaps you approach discussion as an argument/confrontation by default and that explains the way you come off in your posts. I won't fault you for that.

CardNYY
11-30-06, 11:11 AM
I can't remember which sportswriter said it but apparently Pujols is quite a pain in the ass for the media to deal with. If he played in Boston or NYC this would be more widely known. .

Probably Bernie Miklasz of the STL Post-Dispatch...

Soriambi
11-30-06, 11:35 AM
I like Pujols a lot, but I think he would have been better off keeping his mouth shut about this. He has the right to say it, but it makes me think less of him (though I still like him as much as I like any non-Yankee.)

I do think he was the MVP, I don't agree with his argument that a MVP should always come from an MVP team, but it would have been a lot better if he had just said that he has a World Series ring and that's all he cares about. It's nice that he was honest, but I think that it kind of portrays him as a me-first type of player, though that might not be the case.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 12:41 PM
Again, Albert had a phenomenal year, has had a great career, he just won the World Series, he won the MVP last year...he didn't need to speak out and basically discredit Howard's legitimacy here.

.

I have more to say.

He got ................ed out of an award. I'd be pissed as well. No one has explained to me (or apparently him) what, exactly, it is that Howard was valuable to. Everyone keeps telling me how integral Howard was to the Phillies Great Run to Nowhere (TM), and I maintain the Phillies could have just as easily missed the playoffs without Ryan Howard.

So then we get into the "almosts" and "ifs" Well the Phillies almost made the playoffs! The Cardinals almost missed the playoffs! If the Cardinals were in the East...If the Phillies were in the Central...If the Astros were better...If the Mets were worse... and so on and so forth. And now we're giving the MVP award based on ifs and almosts and you might as well just pull a name out of a hat.

cmaff05
11-30-06, 01:00 PM
I have more to say.

He got ................ed out of an award. I'd be pissed as well. No one has explained to me (or apparently him) what, exactly, it is that Howard was valuable to. Everyone keeps telling me how integral Howard was to the Phillies Great Run to Nowhere (TM), and I maintain the Phillies could have just as easily missed the playoffs without Ryan Howard.

So then we get into the "almosts" and "ifs" Well the Phillies almost made the playoffs! The Cardinals almost missed the playoffs! If the Cardinals were in the East...If the Phillies were in the Central...If the Astros were better...If the Mets were worse... and so on and so forth. And now we're giving the MVP award based on ifs and almosts and you might as well just pull a name out of a hat.

I'm interested on your opinion about Jeter then.. how is he more valuable than Carlos Guillen?

halokiller911
11-30-06, 01:35 PM
I have more to say.

He got ................ed out of an award. I'd be pissed as well. No one has explained to me (or apparently him) what, exactly, it is that Howard was valuable to. Everyone keeps telling me how integral Howard was to the Phillies Great Run to Nowhere (TM), and I maintain the Phillies could have just as easily missed the playoffs without Ryan Howard.

So then we get into the "almosts" and "ifs" Well the Phillies almost made the playoffs! The Cardinals almost missed the playoffs! If the Cardinals were in the East...If the Phillies were in the Central...If the Astros were better...If the Mets were worse... and so on and so forth. And now we're giving the MVP award based on ifs and almosts and you might as well just pull a name out of a hat.

By your logic Beltran should have won with flying colors. His team did win 97 games.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 01:46 PM
By your logic Beltran should have won with flying colors. His team did win 97 games.

If the Cardinals didn't make it, I would have given it to him. Pujols had a better year on a playoff team.

Howard wasn't a better player than Pujols who won despite being on a non playoff team. He was an inferior player (besides HR and OMGRBIS) who played on a non playoff team.




I'm interested on your opinion about Jeter then.. how is he more valuable than Carlos Guillen?

I have no idea why he didn't get any consideration. I think ultimately all his errors sunk him, along with, of course, OMGRBIs. Shouldn't have, but in a year that Morneau and Howard won, its clear that OMGRIBIs ruled the writers, and Jeter had more. I also think they understand BA and OBP better than slugging percentage.

Rocketman
11-30-06, 01:51 PM
LOL. Panamaniac and cmaff, you are both totally ridiculous and out of line.

Albert Pujols this year contributed 39 win shares. That means he gave his team an extra 13 wins over the course of the season. Ryan Howard contributed 31, or about 10 wins over the course of the season.

Are you really blaming Pujols for his team having only 83 wins? You don't think blaming Jim Edmonds for having only 37 extra-base hits is someone more appropriate to point the finger at? Are you blaming Pujols for Molina, Eckstein, Taguchi, and Juan Encarnacion all playing horribly for the duration of the 2006 season?

You don't think it would be more appropriate to blame the fact that beyond Carpenter, the Cardinals didn't have a single truly reliable pitcher? That Jason Marquis threw 194 innings of 6.02 ERA baseball against some of the worst offenses in the major leagues? That Mark Mulder would get hurt and in his 17 starts have an ERA over 7? That out of every starting pitcher that started at least two games, only Carpenter and Jeff Suppan (1.45 WHIP) had an ERA less than 5.0?

Pujols was clearly the most valuable player in the league if you're looking at it sabermetrically. Moreover, he was CLEARLY the difference maker between his team making the playoffs and not.

Ryan Howard's terrific numbers were less stellar than Pujols'. If he had contributed the three extra wins to his team like Pujols did, the Phillies would have been tied with LA for the Wild Card lead. Instead, his relative paucity in production doomed his team to an early offseason vacation.

Pujols may have stepped over the "line" by saying he got cheated out of an award while winning the World Series, but he certainly had one point: he WAS the best player in baseball this year.

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 02:09 PM
Right on Rocketman, Pujols had the better offensive season, he is a better defender, and his team made the playoffs. I don't see much of a debate.

cmaff05
11-30-06, 02:11 PM
LOL. Panamaniac and cmaff, you are both totally ridiculous and out of line.

Albert Pujols this year contributed 39 win shares. That means he gave his team an extra 13 wins over the course of the season. Ryan Howard contributed 31, or about 10 wins over the course of the season.

Are you really blaming Pujols for his team having only 83 wins? You don't think blaming Jim Edmonds for having only 37 extra-base hits is someone more appropriate to point the finger at? Are you blaming Pujols for Molina, Eckstein, Taguchi, and Juan Encarnacion all playing horribly for the duration of the 2006 season?

You don't think it would be more appropriate to blame the fact that beyond Carpenter, the Cardinals didn't have a single truly reliable pitcher? That Jason Marquis threw 194 innings of 6.02 ERA baseball against some of the worst offenses in the major leagues? That Mark Mulder would get hurt and in his 17 starts have an ERA over 7? That out of every starting pitcher that started at least two games, only Carpenter and Jeff Suppan (1.45 WHIP) had an ERA less than 5.0?

Pujols was clearly the most valuable player in the league if you're looking at it sabermetrically. Moreover, he was CLEARLY the difference maker between his team making the playoffs and not.

Ryan Howard's terrific numbers were less stellar than Pujols'. If he had contributed the three extra wins to his team like Pujols did, the Phillies would have been tied with LA for the Wild Card lead. Instead, his relative paucity in production doomed his team to an early offseason vacation.

Pujols may have stepped over the "line" by saying he got cheated out of an award while winning the World Series, but he certainly had one point: he WAS the best player in baseball this year.

You are out of line. Please tell me where I said Ryan Howard deserved the MVP.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:28 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to explain what it was Howard was valuable to.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 02:36 PM
LOL. Panamaniac and cmaff, you are both totally ridiculous and out of line.

Albert Pujols this year contributed 39 win shares. That means he gave his team an extra 13 wins over the course of the season. Ryan Howard contributed 31, or about 10 wins over the course of the season.

I'm "ridiculous and out of line" for simply saying that Pujols over Howard was not a slam dunk and Pujols should take it in stride (he won the greatest prize of all this year)? *yawn*...

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 02:39 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to explain what it was Howard was valuable to.

You can still have value on a team that doesn't make the playoffs, I don't think the MVP has to come from a playoff team, although that certainly helps.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:41 PM
You can still have value on a team that doesn't make the playoffs,

Like what? I guess maybe you can be a draw but that's pushing it.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:43 PM
I'm "ridiculous and out of line" for simply saying that Pujols over Howard was not a slam dunk ..

In what way? Pujols' team made the playoffs. Pujols had a higher batting average. Pujols had a higher On Base Percentage. Pujols had a higher Slugging Percentage. Pujols had a higher OPS. Pujols had a higher OPS+. Pujols was the better defender. HR and OMGRBIS trump ALL THAT?

Frankly, its not all that close.

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 02:43 PM
Like what? I guess maybe you can be a draw but that's pushing it.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=99976

Did any of the players on this list from non playoff teams have any value last year, or does their VORP drop to 0 once their team is eliminated from playoff contention?

cmaff05
11-30-06, 02:45 PM
In what way? Pujols' team made the playoffs. Pujols had a higher batting average. Pujols had a higher On Base Percentage. Pujols had a higher Slugging Percentage. Pujols had a higher OPS. Pujols had a higher OPS+. Pujols was the better defender. HR and OMGRBIS trump ALL THAT?

Frankly, its not all that close.

Yes. That's apparently what the voters voted on... HRs and RBIs. Why do you have to hash it out all the time? We know you are unhappy with the system... don't be obnoxious about it.

It's not the right way to vote for an MVP but that's the way it has been.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:49 PM
, or does their VORP drop to 0 once their team is eliminated from playoff contention?

Pretty much, yeah. The ultimate goal is to (at the time of voting) make the playoffs.

Travis Hafner had the fourth highest VORP in baseball.

What good did it do anyone?

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:50 PM
Yes. That's apparently what the voters voted on... HRs and RBIs. Why do you have to hash it out all the time?

To hammer home how absurd it is and how right Pujols is.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 02:51 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to explain what it was Howard was valuable to.

Following the trade of their best player and their perceived "giving up on the season" at the deadline, Howard raises his BA .029, his OBP .057, and his slugging .050, and the team plays 14 games over .500.....and the media eats it all up - such a great story blah blah blah. I never said it was right...it's just understandable and not a crime against humanity and not "totally ridiculous and out of line".

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 02:53 PM
Pretty much, yeah. The ultimate goal is to (at the time of voting) make the playoffs.

Travis Hafner had the fourth highest VORP in baseball.

What good did it do anyone?

To me, helping your team play better baseball always has value.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:53 PM
Following the trade of their best player and their perceived "giving up on the season" at the deadline, Howard raises his BA .029, his OBP .057, and his slugging .050, and the team plays 14 games over .500.....and the media eats it all up - such a great story blah blah blah..

And it all meant, let's say it all together


Nothing.

And as nice as it is that he got better, he was STILL worse than Albert Pujols.

I just don't see it.

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 02:54 PM
And it all meant, let's say it all together


Nothing.

And as nice as it is that he got better, he was STILL worse than Albert Pujols.

I just don't see it.

Why not wait until after the playoffs to vote for an MVP? Apparently if your team didn't win the WS, your season had no value.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 02:55 PM
To me, helping your team play better baseball always has value.

Better than what? They finished 78-84 and 18 games back. What did he help his team do? Not be the Royals?

cmaff05
11-30-06, 02:57 PM
Pretty much, yeah. The ultimate goal is to (at the time of voting) make the playoffs.

Travis Hafner had the fourth highest VORP in baseball.

What good did it do anyone?

I'm still trying to find any reasoning in the premise that because Travis Hafner's team had non existant starting pitching and Fausto Carbomb giving up taters at Fenway Park on consecutive nights that he has no value to his team at all.

That is simpleton reasoning.

BillBuckner
11-30-06, 02:59 PM
Someone's tasting some sour grapes.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 03:01 PM
And it all meant, let's say it all together


Nothing.

And as nice as it is that he got better, he was STILL worse than Albert Pujols.

I just don't see it.

Then MVP voting should be postponed until November. Getting one's team to the playoffs could still mean "nothing" in the grand scheme of things. In sports where the ultimate goal is to win it all, unless your team wins the championship all your efforts mean...nothing. So scrap the WS MVP and let's just have one definitive MVP. :dunno:

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:01 PM
Why not wait until after the playoffs to vote for an MVP? Apparently if your team didn't win the WS, your season had no value.

Heh. I just realized that MVP could stand for "Moral Victory" something. I need a good "P" word that's not "player"

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 03:02 PM
Better than what? They finished 78-84 and 18 games back. What did he help his team do? Not be the Royals?

Better than how they would have been without the player. I guess under your logic a team that doesn't make the playoffs can't have a team MVP.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:05 PM
I'm still trying to find any reasoning in the premise that because Travis Hafner's team had non existant starting pitching and Fausto Carbomb giving up taters at Fenway Park on consecutive nights that he has no value to his team at all.



Its a shame, isn't it?

Maybe he made a few more Indians fans smile. There's some value there, I suppose.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:10 PM
Better than how they would have been without the player. .

Honestly, when the starting point is six games under and 18 games back, who cares if they're any worse? Without Hafner maybe they'd be 25 back! Oh no!

cmaff05
11-30-06, 03:10 PM
Its a shame, isn't it?

Maybe he made a few more Indians fans smile. There's some value there, I suppose.

By that theory Dmitri Young was more valuable to his team than Travis Hafner.

That's seems pretty rational too. I mean, I think that Dmitri Young is better than Travis Hafner too.

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 03:10 PM
Its a shame, isn't it?

Maybe he made a few more Indians fans smile. There's some value there, I suppose.

The award has never been limited in such a fashion, if MLB wanted it to be, they would do so.

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 03:11 PM
By that theory Dmitri Young was more valuable to his team than Travis Hafner.

That's seems pretty rational too. I mean, I think that Dmitri Young is better than Travis Hafner too.

And it would make Bubba more valuable than Hafner, he contributed to a playoff team.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:13 PM
Then MVP voting should be postponed until November. Getting one's team to the playoffs could still mean "nothing" in the grand scheme of things. In sports where the ultimate goal is to win it all, unless your team wins the championship all your efforts mean...nothing. So scrap the WS MVP and let's just have one definitive MVP. :dunno:

Is this supposed to make me change my mind?

cmaff05
11-30-06, 03:13 PM
And it would make Bubba more valuable than Hafner, he contributed to a playoff team.

That's getting a little of hand there dude.

Bubba Crosby made a catch at the warning track... he was inherently more valuable to his team. Travis Hafner had a measly 183 OPS+. There is no comparision here. Sorry, none.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:14 PM
And it would make Bubba more valuable than Hafner, he contributed to a playoff team.

They won inspite of Bubba.

In Mo I Trust
11-30-06, 03:14 PM
That's getting a little of hand there dude.

Bubba Crosby made a catch at the warning track... he was inherently more valuable to his team. Travis Hafner had a measly 183 OPS+. There is no comparision here. Sorry, none.

True, true.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:15 PM
The award has never been limited in such a fashion, if MLB wanted it to be, they would do so.

The award has no guidelines. Its clearly "vote for whoever the ................ you want" anyway.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 03:15 PM
Is this supposed to make me change my mind?

While I will agree Pujols meant more (but not by leaps and bounds), I'm just trying to understand how Howard meant "nothing".

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:15 PM
That's getting a little of hand there dude.

Bubba Crosby made a catch at the warning track... he was inherently more valuable to his team. Travis Hafner had a measly 183 OPS+. There is no comparision here. Sorry, none.

Again. Take Hafner away from the Indians and what do you have?

A fourth place team.

Value.

cmaff05
11-30-06, 03:17 PM
Again. Take Hafner away from the Indians and what do you have?

A fourth place team.

Value.

Take Jeter away from the Yankees and replace him with a non all star who has good production and you still have a first place team.

What is your point?

He produced to a 183+ OPS, he has value to his team. Just because the rest of his team doesn't have equivalent value doesn't mean he should be penalized.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:17 PM
While I will agree Pujols meant more (but not by leaps and bounds), I'm just trying to understand how Howard meant "nothing".

The Phillies would have missed the playoffs with or without him.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 03:17 PM
The award has no guidelines. Its clearly "vote for whoever the ................ you want" anyway.

As is pretty much anything where voting is involved...BCS...figure skating... Still, you have to be within reason, otherwise you get your privileges revoked like Cowley. Voting Howard over Pujols does not make a voter mentally unstable.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 03:22 PM
As is pretty much anything where voting is involved...BCS...figure skating... Still, you have to be within reason.

Sometimes.

mhmajp
11-30-06, 03:29 PM
The award has never been limited in such a fashion, if MLB wanted it to be, they would do so.

And in effect, they have. MLB has awards for LDS, LCS and WS rounds. But as you point out, that's not what the MLB MVP award has been designed for.

In other news, Pujols isn't right to speak out and be spiteful to another player. Robbed or not, no one is paying him to be rude. He should go shine his WS ring and let Howard have his moment. Is he right that he should have won? I'd have voted for him, but since I'm not a voter for the award that doesn't matter. And neither does his spiteful opinion after the fact.

Panamaniac42
11-30-06, 03:34 PM
Well, I gotta move on. Mattpat, cmaff, In Mo, it was a pleasure. Rocketman, thanks for chiming in from left field. RyAn HoWarD 4 eva!!!!!!

Rocketman
11-30-06, 03:48 PM
I came, I saw, I ended this discussion with one fell post.

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 05:22 PM
And in effect, they have. MLB has awards for LDS, LCS and WS rounds. But as you point out, that's not what the MLB MVP award has been designed for.
.

There's no ALDS award.

And besides, there's already an award for the best hitter in the league, regardless of team. The Hank Aaron award.

Unless they want to rename the award "Most Outstanding Player" and just give it the the guys who have (OMG)RBIs, the winner should lay some claim to being more valuable than anyone else in the league. And when the best hitter in baseball brought his team to the playoffs, its hard to argue for anyone else.


He should go shine his WS ring and let Howard have his moment. This is like after 2004 when people were telling me that after all the Yankees got in my life, I should be happy for the Red Sox finally having a moment.

Huktonfonix
11-30-06, 05:56 PM
So Mattpat, to look at things from the other side, a player on a team that wins their division handiily, a team that would have been playoff bound even if said player suffered a season-ending injury on opening day, must also have no value, right? Beltran was not valuable to the Mets, because they'd have won the division with Chavez starting in CF too, right? The Mets make the playoffs with or without Beltran. The Phillies miss the playoffs with or without Howard. Therefore neither has value.

According to your "logic", MVP candidates must come not just from teams that make the playoffs, but only teams that barely make the playoffs. In fact, in previous seasons where the Cardinals dominated the NL and were clearly playoff-bound in June, Pujols must have been entirely undeserving of his MVP votes.

halokiller911
11-30-06, 05:59 PM
Edit: Sorry, I think I got the number wrong for non-playoff MVP winners...

Mattpat11
11-30-06, 07:12 PM
Beltran was not valuable to the Mets, because they'd have won the division with Chavez starting in CF too, right?

Would they have? You take away all Beltran's contributions and give Endy Chavez a potentially devastating 600 AB, we're looking at a completely different team.

Rocketman
11-30-06, 08:39 PM
I was arguing the "making the playoffs is important for MVP" thing just for show. Let's get real here.

The whole "playoff" thing is a crock. Clearly, one player in a sport with 25-man rosters cannot by himself propel a team to the playoffs. If you took Babe Ruth in 1923 and put him on the 2005 Kansas City Royals, they would not make the playoffs. Despite Ruth adding 18+ wins to the team, they would still be mired in fourth place.

In 2005, Alex Rodriguez had an outstanding year, hitting .321 with 48 HR and 130 RBI. He was the deserving MVP. In 2005, the average AL team scored 4.76 runs per game. In 1923, the average AL team scored 4.78 runs per game. That difference is essentially negligable.

In 1923, Babe Ruth hit .393 with 41 home runs and 131 RBI. Beyond the insane batting average difference, Ruth also walked 170 times, as opposed to ARod's 91. ARod is credited with creating 151 runs in 2005, an outstanding mark. Of course, that pales in comparison to Ruth's 216 in 1923 in a league with nearly congruent scoring contexts.

Alex Rodriguez "led" his team to the playoffs in 2005. Babe Ruth circa 1923 transplanted to the Kansas City Royals would have finished in fourth place. Which one of them would be the deserving MVP? If it had anything to do with making the playoffs, ARod is surely the right choice. If the Yankees had even lost a single extra game the Yankees would not have won the division. Had the Yankees lost three extra games, the Indians would have been the Wild Card winners. On the other hand, even if Babe Ruth on the 2005 Royals contributed an extra three games to his team beyond his historic 18+ addition, they still would be in awful condition.

What's my point? Babe Ruth clearly would have been the easy MVP choice. Any player credited with over 50 win shares would win the MVP every single time because it would be obvious how dominant that player was compared to anyone else in the league. Yet in the idiotic interpretation of some sportswriters nationwide, Ruth wouldn't have even been a worthwhile candidate, let alone the clear and obvious victor. It would have been no fault of his own: unless these writers are total hypocrites and liars (which I peg them to be) Ruth's totally historic season would have been rendered moot because the general manager and owner of the Kansas City Royals are less competent than the captain of the Exxon Valdez was.

Is that how we judge merit these days? Is that how we judge value - with total hypocrisy and absolute bias? Is it wrong to even feign justice?

The REAL reason that Albert Pujols deserved the MVP Award this year is because he was the most productive player in the league when his TOTAL measurable contribution to the team was taken into account. Perhaps Win Shares isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better judge of a player's seasonal performance and production than individual RBI totals or team wins are.

AlbanyColonieYankee
11-30-06, 09:51 PM
To me, "most valuable player" implies that the player's performance benefitted his team more than all the other players benefitted their teams. Or to put it another way, did the Phillies improve more as a result of Ryan Howard than the Cardinals did as a result of Albert Pujols.

It's hard for me to answer that because I don't watch many Cardinals or Phillies games over the course of a season...as I'm sure most people here and the majority of the voters do not.

The award (as are most awards) are based on the opinions of people who are working with limited information. I am willing to bet that quite a few of the voters have seen Howard play only a few times, if at all.

Considering that, Pujols looks a little silly for complaining. He should just take it for what it is -an opinion- and congratulate the winner, who as far as I know he has no personal grudge with. Whining about an MVP award, especially after you just won a World Series, is not going to accomplish anything except making you look petty.

Rocketman
11-30-06, 09:58 PM
Albany, the simple response to that is: yes, there is indeed a metric which records the benefits a player provides to his team. There are many, in fact, but one of the best all-encompassing ones is called Win Shares. Pujols led the league in Win Shares in the NL and Jeter did in the AL. Both would have been the correct MVPs.

cmaff05
11-30-06, 10:00 PM
I'm sorry, but you take away Jeter from the Yankees and they are still a first place team. You take away Pujols away from that team and they are lost. This is assuming you replace them with above replacement level players.

Comparision isn't valid at all. I don't care what win shares said.

AlbanyColonieYankee
11-30-06, 10:11 PM
Albany, the simple response to that is: yes, there is indeed a metric which records the benefits a player provides to his team. There are many, in fact, but one of the best all-encompassing ones is called Win Shares. Pujols led the league in Win Shares in the NL and Jeter did in the AL. Both would have been the correct MVPs.

Yes, I am familiar with that. I wasn't necessarily advocating for Howard as much as disputing Pujols' contention that the MVP should always come from a playoff team. As I said, I don't really have a strong opinion about who should have won the award because I don't watch that many NL games.

Rocketman
11-30-06, 10:12 PM
cmaff05, Jeter was the most valuable player in the American League because his production provided the Yankees with more wins during the season than any other player in the American League did for their team.

It had nothing to do with the fact that the Yankees made the playoffs, that the Red Sox finished in third place, that the Twins won the division on the last day of the season or that the sky is blue. It's a matter of realizing that Jeter did indeed produce more than anyone else did if you add in his hitting, defense, and baserunning.

Rocketman
11-30-06, 10:14 PM
Pujols was clearly wrong. The playoffs have nothing to do with it. Pujols is not the reason the Cardinals got in the playoffs this year. He is simply the PRINCIPAL reason, but not the reason. No player could possibly be THE reason.

However, Pujols created more wins for his team than any other. Therefore, he was the rightful NL MVP in 2006.

jimmyclark
11-30-06, 10:30 PM
There was someone during the playoffs, Peter Gammons, probably, who said St Louis players do have this "us against the East Coast teams and media" mentality. The Whitey Herzog teams in the 1980s had it in spades, always complaining that USA Today gave more attention to the Mets. McGwire had touchy moments (remember it was Sosa who craved the spotlight in 1998). Pujols could be influenced by the same forces.
Howard was a good choice as MVP, Pujols would have been a slightly better choice. Hopefully Pujols will learn to be more easy going about these things. Nobody likes a whiny athlete. Writers and fans will not be impressed, they will look instead to bring you down a notch.

Lucen
12-01-06, 01:08 AM
Pujols was clearly wrong. The playoffs have nothing to do with it. Pujols is not the reason the Cardinals got in the playoffs this year. He is simply the PRINCIPAL reason, but not the reason. No player could possibly be THE reason.

However, Pujols created more wins for his team than any other. Therefore, he was the rightful NL MVP in 2006.

Pujols: .331 BA, .431 OBP, .671 SLG, 1.102 OPS, 92 BB, 37 IBB, 50 K, 11.3 RC/G, .294 BABIP, .397 BA/RISP, 13.7 Clutch, 39 WS, 49 HR, 137 RBI.

Howard: .313 BA, .425 OBP, .659 SLG, 1.084 OPS, 108 BB, 28 IBB, 181 K, 9.3 RC/G, .363 BABIP, .256 BA/RISP, -7.8 Clutch, 31 WS, 58 HR, 149 RBI.

Stats were collected from THT. I highlighted some of the more interesting ones. Taken in isolation, none of the highlighted stats mean much of anything. But when viewed in a larger context (ie: with the rest of their stats), they're really interesting.

I will point out that the only places Howard was better than Pujols in 2006 were BB, IBB, HR and RBI. He was significantly worse in most other areas, including some of the more interesting, if less reliable stats like clutch factor. :)

It's also really interesting to see that Howard enjoyed such an advantage in BABIP, meaning he had more luck with balls put into play. And his average with RISP was a huge dropoff from his total average while Pujols actually increased his average in those situations. Again, not decisive on its own, but when added to the rest of the evidence stacked in Pujols' favor, it's interesting.

Pujols is right. He was snubbed and it's not even remotely close. But he's wrong about WHY he was snubbed. It should have nothing to do with whether his team makes the playoffs or not. It's a regular season MVP, meaning a player's value during the regular season should be considered. I think a team should be in playoff contention, but not necessarily a playoff team.

The problem is that voters see gaudy HR and RBI totals and get all starry-eyed. It's sad that our nation's sports journalists lack the sophistication to look at a stat like win shares before casting their votes.

Dannman103
12-01-06, 09:08 AM
regardless of whether or not he deserved it, he shouldnt have come out and said what he did...I mean the guy has already won an MVP, and won the World Series this year...does he really have to publicly complain about not being MVP this year? I can understand being a little upset but keep it to yourself, it just makes you look like a jerk

It just makes him come off as a baby to me...compared to the high road that Jeter took, this is a classless move on Pujols part

Mattpat11
12-01-06, 12:05 PM
regardless of whether or not he deserved it, he shouldnt have come out and said what he did...I mean the guy has already won an MVP, and won the World Series this year...does he really have to publicly complain about not being MVP this year?


"Look at all the World Series you guys won! Can't you just be happy for the Red Sox fans?"

No matter though. This is a glorious day.

Dannman103
12-01-06, 01:23 PM
"Look at all the World Series you guys won! Can't you just be happy for the Red Sox fans?"

No matter though. This is a glorious day.

I'm not saying Pujols should be happy that Howard won, or cheer for him...but why come out and say something like that publicly? It just makes him seem like a lesser man and a bit of a baby

Lucen
12-01-06, 03:00 PM
I'm not saying Pujols should be happy that Howard won, or cheer for him...but why come out and say something like that publicly? It just makes him seem like a lesser man and a bit of a baby

You know, I was originally of the mind that Pujols should keep his mouth shut and show a little grace... but honestly, how will sitting down politely with your mouth shut help fix the problem with the voting. Attention needs to be drawn to the laughable way the voters are making their decisions. This is one way to do that. So keep on sqawkin' Albert. :)

Arod for President
12-01-06, 03:02 PM
They vote before the season's over, no? The Phillies were in it till the end so Howard was quite important, I'm sure. Sure, they didn't make the playoffs, but they were contenders, and that's good enough I think.

good point

stephsamps
12-01-06, 03:48 PM
You know, I was originally of the mind that Pujols should keep his mouth shut and show a little grace... but honestly, how will sitting down politely with your mouth shut help fix the problem with the voting. Attention needs to be drawn to the laughable way the voters are making their decisions. This is one way to do that. So keep on sqawkin' Albert. :)

It's called a third-party validation. We do it in PR all the time when we don't want our company/CEO out there saying something but we need to get the message across. TLR, Jim Edmonds, those kind of guys can go out there saying Albert was robbed. Albert saying it himself looks like a spoiled cry baby, especially since his team obtained THE goal of the year - the WS crown.

Mattpat11
12-01-06, 05:49 PM
good point

Except that his point was wrong. They don't vote before the season's over. By the time they voted, the Phillies were long gone.

Archer1979
12-01-06, 09:49 PM
From Jon Heyman;s column:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/12/01/scoop.friday/2.html



Unlike Derek Jeter, who took the high road after his MVP defeat, Albert Pujols questioned Ryan Howard getting the NL award after the Phillies failed to make the playoffs. Besides the fact that Pujols should show better sportsmanship, I'd like to point one thing out: Yo Albert, Howard's Phillies had two more wins than your Cardinals.

Lucen
12-02-06, 12:22 AM
It's called a third-party validation. We do it in PR all the time when we don't want our company/CEO out there saying something but we need to get the message across. TLR, Jim Edmonds, those kind of guys can go out there saying Albert was robbed. Albert saying it himself looks like a spoiled cry baby, especially since his team obtained THE goal of the year - the WS crown.

I'm not saying it was the best way to do it... but hell, at this point, any attention brought to the fact that the current system sucks is a possitive in my book. :)

Rocketman
12-02-06, 01:38 AM
Heyman is an idiot. Pujols gave his team two more wins than Howard gave HIS team. Pujols was right that he was the deserving MVP. He was just wrong in presentation.

parkerstrong
12-02-06, 01:44 AM
Pujls is showing his true colors. He is a jerk. He also said Glavine wasnt that good after pitching 7 shut-out innings. Pujols should keep his mouth shut and show some class.

kan_t
12-02-06, 01:57 AM
You know, I was originally of the mind that Pujols should keep his mouth shut and show a little grace... but honestly, how will sitting down politely with your mouth shut help fix the problem with the voting. Attention needs to be drawn to the laughable way the voters are making their decisions. This is one way to do that. So keep on sqawkin' Albert. :)
You miss the point. Don't get me wrong. Pujols should be this year MVP. But his comment is really wrong, and I don't know how a wrong suggestion can fix the problem with the voting. He is saying MVP should be come from a playoff team. According to his logic, he should win it over Howard because Cardinals went to playoff while Phillies didn't. In fact, Phillies had a better regular season record than Cardinals.

Pujols can complain, but not for this foolish reason. Now his comment just make me think that he is tasting sour grapes.

Lucen
12-02-06, 02:34 AM
You miss the point. Don't get me wrong. Pujols should be this year MVP. But his comment is really wrong, and I don't know how a wrong suggestion can fix the problem with the voting. He is saying MVP should be come from a playoff team. According to his logic, he should win it over Howard because Cardinals went to playoff while Phillies didn't. In fact, Phillies had a better regular season record than Cardinals.

Pujols can complain, but not for this foolish reason. Now his comment just make me think that he is tasting sour grapes.

My first post agrees with this. His suggestion that the MVP should come from a playoff team only is absurd. But he's right that he got snubbed... and honestly, I like that some attention is being drawn to the flawed system that selects the MVP right now. It needs to be fixed, and the squeeky wheel gets the grease, so to speak.

stephsamps
12-02-06, 01:46 PM
I'm not saying it was the best way to do it... but hell, at this point, any attention brought to the fact that the current system sucks is a possitive in my book. :)

But honestly, I think more people will talk about what an ass Albert looks like than, oh maybe the system is flawed.

Jace
12-02-06, 01:54 PM
But honestly, I think more people will talk about what an ass Albert looks like than, oh maybe the system is flawed.

I agree. Its not like anyone thinks of Albert Pujols as an objective opinion on the subject of whether or not he should win an MVP. Everyone will just ignore his point and draw inferences on his character instead. Bud Selig probably takes Keith Law more seriously than Pujols

Dannman103
12-02-06, 05:49 PM
I'm not saying it was the best way to do it... but hell, at this point, any attention brought to the fact that the current system sucks is a possitive in my book. :)

since it seems like a fair amount of people seem to think that the current MVP voting system is flawed (honestly, i dont really see it), I was just wondering what changes people think should be made...I dont really know what other process could be used to make the decision, other than what we have, but I'm open to other ideas.

Mattpat11
12-02-06, 06:04 PM
since it seems like a fair amount of people seem to think that the current MVP voting system is flawed (honestly, i dont really see it), I was just wondering what changes people think should be made...I dont really know what other process could be used to make the decision, other than what we have, but I'm open to other ideas.


Someone needs to outline what it is, exactly, voters are voting on. It seems to change every year. This year the bad Howard choice and the inexcusable Morneau choice made it clear that they were voting on OMGRBIs. Thats not what happened last year, as the two RBI kings were on playoff teams and neither won. 2004 was apparently batting average.

I have no idea what these people are going to vote on in any given year.

Reggie Smith
12-04-06, 11:52 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2685770

Pujols extends olive branch....

mhmajp
12-04-06, 12:47 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2685770

Pujols extends olive branch....

Nice to see him apologize, but what is being misinterpreted of what he said earlier?

Dannman103
12-04-06, 02:39 PM
Someone needs to outline what it is, exactly, voters are voting on. It seems to change every year. This year the bad Howard choice and the inexcusable Morneau choice made it clear that they were voting on OMGRBIs. Thats not what happened last year, as the two RBI kings were on playoff teams and neither won. 2004 was apparently batting average.

I have no idea what these people are going to vote on in any given year.

the voters arent voting on a single stat...its should be a matter of them deciding who they felt was most valuable...is it vague? of course, and highly influenced by personal opinion. But I'd rather have that than have a system based on a certain statistical category