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JavyVazquezIsSick
11-04-06, 10:10 PM
Anyone know if its posted anywhere or at least part of it? Usually its hidden in baseball think factory but I couldn't find it. Thanks...

apolansk
11-06-06, 12:18 AM
After a quick google search, I found these:


14. mgl Posted: September 29, 2006 at 01:59 PM (#2191720)
Jeter is -12 per 150 in UZR, about his average over the last 5 years or so. Surely even the observers can "see" a -12.

Gonzalez is +7, of which most of that is lack of errors. I suppose that is worthy of a GG, although there are better UZR's at SS in the AL this year (e.g. Uribe at +11).

Some notable UZR's: A. Everett an incredible +44. Griffey at -49 and Dunn at -23. How's that for 2/3 of an OF!? Manny at -39 (after park adjusting of course). Even Crisp was -14. Boston defense was horrible this year, which is one large reason why the Sox did not do well and their "pitching" was poor.

Best defensive teams overall by UZR: Cubs, Mets, and Cardinals. Worst were Boston, CIN, PIT, TB, and TEX. Boston by far (more than 1/2 run a game!).

BTW, a player's error rate has very little correlation from year to year, which suggests that fielding % is mostly luck and the judgment of the scorer.


24. mgl Posted: September 29, 2006 at 10:30 PM (#2192129)
Yanks were -19 total, one of their best team UZR's in a long time, courtesy of Bernie being a part-timer in the OF, Sheff being out, Giambi being DH'd a lot, and Soriano gone. Cano was +10. Last year, he was -1. Don't know what the scouts/fans say, but based on those numbers, I'd have to estimate him at around a +3 true.


27. mgl Posted: September 30, 2006 at 01:24 AM (#2192164)
MIL, +15 in the IF and -28 in the OF. Bascially Fielder, Clark, Gross, Weeks, and Lee are really bad. Everyone else is OK or good.

JeffWeaverFan
11-06-06, 11:58 PM
After a quick google search, I found these:
I'm surprised that Boston was so bad overall. Their OF defense is bad, but their IF defense was supposed to be very good. Youkilis looked very good to me at 1B, Loretta is a fine defensive second baseman, Alex Gonzalez is one of the better defensive SS's in the league, and Lowell is an excellent defensive third baseman.

apolansk
11-07-06, 12:42 AM
I'm surprised that Boston was so bad overall. Their OF defense is bad, but their IF defense was supposed to be very good. Youkilis looked very good to me at 1B, Loretta is a fine defensive second baseman, Alex Gonzalez is one of the better defensive SS's in the league, and Lowell is an excellent defensive third baseman.

Apparently outside of the left side of their infield, everyone else was below average. However, I still don't trust UZR numbers at 1b, and C(by this I mean most of their jobs aren't so much about fielding balls in play but receiving balls that otherwise could go as Passed Balls, Wild Pitches, or Errors.). Also LF in Fenway, regardless of how bad Manny actually is, is skewed heavily. I think the last few years he was somewhere between -30 and -40, which is hard to believe anyone can be that bad.

Philip Hughes Fan
11-07-06, 12:55 AM
Apparently outside of the left side of their infield, everyone else was below average. However, I still don't trust UZR numbers at 1b, and C(by this I mean most of their jobs aren't so much about fielding balls in play but receiving balls that otherwise could go as Passed Balls, Wild Pitches, or Errors.). Also LF in Fenway, regardless of how bad Manny actually is, is skewed heavily. I think the last few years he was somewhere between -30 and -40, which is hard to believe anyone can be that bad.

I agree with all this.

However, I believe mgl does use a revised UZR for C which is based mostly off of SB, CS, E, PB, and WP.

As for Fenway, all parks with big walls like that have significant park factors, at least in the corners. People at BTF have done great work with this, and it brought Manny closer to -21 in my rankings rather than -30 or so.

I wish Stats would change the way they do their zone ratings in those parks, because even though balls are catchable up to I think 6 feet high on the wall, outfielders are forced to position themselves differently to deal with playing balls bouncing off the wall. I don't think mgl has properly accounted for this.

As for 1B, not only does it not capture a main part of their job (scooping and saving wild throws), but the sample size on what it does rate is quite small compared to other positions as well. It's better than nothing of course, but is the position I'd least trust the stats on getting a player's true defensive value.

Finally, I'm really just not a big fan of UZR in it's current form. I disagree strongly with penalizing any fielder on a ball that his teammate turns into an out. Not all teams have normal defensive alignments, and there are tons of plays in the OF in which two OFers could have easily caught the ball but one is called off. Say the LF has a better read on it for whatever reason and calls off the CF while it's in one of the CF's zone. Well even though the CF was there and could have caught it, he's penalized for a play that was still made.

Philip Hughes Fan
11-07-06, 12:59 AM
I'm surprised that Boston was so bad overall. Their OF defense is bad, but their IF defense was supposed to be very good. Youkilis looked very good to me at 1B, Loretta is a fine defensive second baseman, Alex Gonzalez is one of the better defensive SS's in the league, and Lowell is an excellent defensive third baseman.

Loretta doesn't make any errors but his range at this point in his career is non-existent.

apolansk
11-07-06, 01:21 AM
Forgot to add that from the 40 or so games I watched of the red sox this year, Youkilis' fielding looked pretty good.

But his that might have been due to him making significantly more diving plays then was necessary (and being unable to make slightly more difficult, but routine for an average 1st baseman). I also do not recall seeing him scoop any throws offhand.

However, I didn't watch many Red Sox games in September since they were unimportant, so I'm basing my memory on a scattering of games from April-August, which admittedly is a small sample size and would be a victim of selective memory.

EDIT: I also found this about LF in Fenway


I recently received a database with complete ZR information for all players back to 1987. I decided to look at matched innings for players who have played left field for the Red Sox and for other teams. Jim Rice and Mike Greenwell are not in this sample, having never played anywhere else. Neither is Ramirez, who played only RF in Cleveland. If a guy played 1100 innings in left field elsewhere, and 75 in Fenway, he gets his ZR runs prorated to 75 innings for the sample.

When all is said and done, I had about 6400 matched innings. The players, per 162 games, were -25 in Fenway and -10 on the road.

apolansk
11-07-06, 01:40 AM
Here is the Zone Rating numbers for the Yankees and Red Sox by position from BBTF, by RS/150 games

Catcher

Jorge Posada 5
Jason Varitek -2

First Base

Andy Phillips 8
Kevin Youkilis -2
Jason Giambi -23
(Andy Phillips had 50 more innings then Giambi)

Second Base

Robinson Cano 1
Mark Loretta -7

Third Base

Mike Lowell 15
A-Rod -8

Shortstop

Alex Gonzalez 14
Derek Jeter -6

Left Field

Melky Cabrera -9
Manny Ramirez -42

Center Field

Johnny Damon 5
Coco Crisp -13

Right Field

Trot Nixon 1
Bobby Abreu -15

Underlined Italics signify worst in the AL

There are some thoughts that playing CF in Fenway effects ZR negatively a lot also.

I guess I'm just a sabermatrician at heart, without wanting to do all the work of calculating the statistics myself.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-08-06, 09:55 PM
Thanks apolansk, you saw Cano improving in the field this year, but +10 is really surprising, I hope he continues to get better...

In Mo I Trust
11-09-06, 05:00 PM
Yea, and that Boston outfield is brutal. Manny isn't as bad as listed, but Coco isn't any good in the field. Imagine if Wily Mo is their RFer next year :eek: .

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-10-06, 06:58 PM
Yea, and that Boston outfield is brutal. Manny isn't as bad as listed, but Coco isn't any good in the field. Imagine if Wily Mo is their RFer next year :eek: .

What makes you think Manny isn't as bad as listed? His UZR rating is consistently that bad every year...

yanksphan
11-10-06, 07:37 PM
What makes you think Manny isn't as bad as listed? His UZR rating is consistently that bad every year...

The monster skews the zone, and ultimately the rating.

JavyVazquezIsSick
11-10-06, 10:50 PM
The monster skews the zone, and ultimately the rating.

Its park adjusted, so I don't believe it does...

Philip Hughes Fan
11-11-06, 01:54 AM
Its park adjusted, so I don't believe it does...

It does. The park adjustment he is using is not nearly strong enough. Someone at BTF, Joe Bivens I think, found that Manny's ZR decreased something like 200 points from the road to Fenway, which is about 30 runs or so per 400 "chances" in LF

apolansk
11-11-06, 10:40 AM
It does. The park adjustment he is using is not nearly strong enough. Someone at BTF, Joe Bivens I think, found that Manny's ZR decreased something like 200 points from the road to Fenway, which is about 30 runs or so per 400 "chances" in LF

Requoting an earlier post here.

I recently received a database with complete ZR information for all players back to 1987. I decided to look at matched innings for players who have played left field for the Red Sox and for other teams. Jim Rice and Mike Greenwell are not in this sample, having never played anywhere else. Neither is Ramirez, who played only RF in Cleveland. If a guy played 1100 innings in left field elsewhere, and 75 in Fenway, he gets his ZR runs prorated to 75 innings for the sample.

When all is said and done, I had about 6400 matched innings. The players, per 162 games, were -25 in Fenway and -10 on the road.

Philip Hughes Fan
11-11-06, 07:44 PM
Someone else did it, too. I know Rally Monkey did that, but a Red Sox fan actually kept track of Manny's fielding splits this year and it was a much larger difference than that even. Take a look at the recent Sox Therapy thread re. Manny's defense (maybe two weeks ago if that), and I think Rally decided to average the two for now.

Also, if anybody is interested, email Chris Dial through BTF because we're going to try and keep fielding splits next year for at least all the teams that have big walls in their OF.

yankees76
11-15-06, 02:44 AM
Its park adjusted, so I don't believe it does...

I think the park adjustment folks are still working out Fenway. Read something today that I will try to post later. The prelimarily view, though, is that Manny's numbers are better than they seem.